Years ago I had some LC71 5.56 that the hole from the primer pocket to the powder chamber had not been punched. That could of been pretty sporty in VN. Recently had some 35W that was so short that about 30% would not fire. And this was in a "controlled feed" Mauser action with the much admired claw extractor. Belted magnum cases are often extremely short, like .016 difference between an unfired case and a fired case. BTS measured with the same comparator.
Using Tape on the back of a loaded round to check or set headspace. . . .
- Thread starter Terry Cross
- Start date
Yeah, that sparked a memory of the same stuff I posted about earlier. When those 22-250 boxes were new, I had had issues with a Bergara 22-250 and that ammo. Thought it was the gun. Sent the ammo back to Hornady and they eventually replaced it (months).
I had forgotten about that.
Nice try.
Swing and a miss. . . . . brief pause while I get my "surprised" face on.
Again you have no clue, as in none, of what goes on in some lanes of work including the one I reside in. You have no clue of the context of the training, the job, the equipment or the selection process to choose who has to run with that type equipment. It's really not secret squirrel or eyes only. Lots of shooting type peeps with common sense can figure it out. Sadly, that's where you fail to qualify.
Their "lowest-bidder_supplied guns are Accuracy International bolt guns with NF glass and excellent suppressors. So while yeah it's pretty shitty equipment, they didn't bid anything. They made a list of known good equipment then bought what they needed with outside/non-public funding.
No worries.
My little heart gets fucked upside down and right side up on a regular basis without your well intentioned assistance.
Standby one.
I will send you a little shovel emoji so you can dig a deeper hole.
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I don’t get on here much, but when I do and see Mr Cross has posted, I usually check it out.
Glad I did!
Glad I did!
I've been motherfucked by way more credible Karens than that puta.
I didn't listen to them either.
Honestly, I'm sure there is likely a shit ton of improvements that could be made. I'm not the sharpest drawer in the knife.
If I wanted to drive the training POIs into the dirt, I would definitely seek his counsel.
Done.
I hope you will be happy with the usual $5.00 Burger King gift card! We work for cheap!
Hey,
Eye'll trade ewe sum spllelin lestens for dat scope youse posTed Earl Leeyer
Don’t you have some Elton John to listen to while you build my future 308 lolYou're.
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Sorry. Couldn't help myself!
LOL bro, he instructs students to cycle the rounds to ensure fit prior to deploying... which obviously could be done on a range... literally nowhere did @Terry Cross suggest for them to do in a class room or in some area that wasn't safe. Reading comprehension is lost on most people eh? You sound like a male Karen, I loathe the people who have to interact with you in real life.
Great advice. In my time I would squirrel a 200 round case at a time and use for my CCB and zero check, would grab another when down to 2-3 boxes. We normally ordered and had enough for 8 guys to last one year, shot every Thursday. Pretty sure that order always had the same lot# but was checked, recorded and verified for each case.
Shame this is a problem with LE duty ammunition
I thought your spirit aminal was a gay frog?
I’m like spider man, errbody gets wonYou didn't fer me. You brute.
Or.......people could just stop being cheap fucks and buy a good set of Go and No Go gauges and have consistent points of reference. 
And yes, I'm excluding 'smiths that chamber a wildcat and don't have or want to buy a No Go gauge for a chambering job they may never repeat.
And yes, I'm excluding 'smiths that chamber a wildcat and don't have or want to buy a No Go gauge for a chambering job they may never repeat.
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Evr hear of the "delta L problem"?
With certain chamberings like the .308 Win, a case with maksimum SAAMI length tolerance will not fit a SAAMI chamber at minimum length tolerance. Yet both would be in spec.
With certain chamberings like the .308 Win, a case with maksimum SAAMI length tolerance will not fit a SAAMI chamber at minimum length tolerance. Yet both would be in spec.
Terry,
Thanks for posting this. I installed a remage barrel this past weekend on a hunting rifle and used the tape method. I was using Manson gauges and wanted something tighter than a no go fit. I used the tape method and was concerned about possible use of factory ammo down the road.
I ended up setting the barrel where it would close on a single layer (.002 thick) of tape but not two layers. Therefore, headspace had to be somewhere around go gauge + .003. I believe Mason's no go is .006 longer than the go gauge. No go's from different vendors are different dimensions from what I understand. Appreciate the knowledge transfer...
Thanks for posting this. I installed a remage barrel this past weekend on a hunting rifle and used the tape method. I was using Manson gauges and wanted something tighter than a no go fit. I used the tape method and was concerned about possible use of factory ammo down the road.
I ended up setting the barrel where it would close on a single layer (.002 thick) of tape but not two layers. Therefore, headspace had to be somewhere around go gauge + .003. I believe Mason's no go is .006 longer than the go gauge. No go's from different vendors are different dimensions from what I understand. Appreciate the knowledge transfer...
I have bought several 200 rds boxes of Hornady 6.5 CM ammo recently, several of the American Gunner labeled 140gr BTHP and several of the Match labeled 140gr BTHP. Out of my Seekins Havak Hit action & barrel there seems almost no difference between the "AG" and "Match" rounds. Is it just a different sticker on the same 200rds bagged & boxed?
Apologies to Terry for the derailment.
@OREGUN
Just perhaps some friendly advice.
Before you berate Terry Cross too much, you might want to just do a bit of research into who he is, who he trains, the rifles he builds and how many folks have a great deal of respect for him and his skills.
You might then reconsider your getting a bit too salty with him.
Just perhaps some friendly advice.
Before you berate Terry Cross too much, you might want to just do a bit of research into who he is, who he trains, the rifles he builds and how many folks have a great deal of respect for him and his skills.
You might then reconsider your getting a bit too salty with him.
From recent personal experience, when there are problems with large numbers of rounds, across lots, Hornady will tell the customer the problem is with the firearm, and to go pound sand.
Ahem...allow ME to reiterate.
Before you open your proverbial cock holster, you might want to understand who you're talking to, and their background, much less their bonefides.
Perhaps you need some time to do some research...voila! And just like that, you now have a few days to do some research, as well as formulate an apology in this thread when you return.
Sound advice for hunters as well. Checklist before heading to Wyoming always includes running every load through the rifle (while at the range) to ensure no fucking problems.
I do know for a fact that the Hornady American Gunner 6.5CR 140 HPBT is the same ammo as the Hornady Black 6.5CM 140 HPBT. I haven't run across any Hornady 140 HPBT labeled simply, "Match". Myself, anyway.
On Edit: I do see the "Match" stuff. Scheels carries it. It may be an exclusive with them? AmmoSeek has a gazillion hits for American Gunner but only one hit for "Match" in the 140 HPBT.
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Certain brass manufacturers, too. Even with video proof of their cases being bulged .004”+ in the body….
I am admittedly a spoiled rotten little bitch.
When I started my bolt gun journey I was able to obtain almost 1000rnds of factory Berger/Lapua SRP and learned to reload on that.
I purchased a new Surgeon Scalpel in November and a buddy gave me an old box of discontinued AMAX's which shot a ragged hole.
So I went down the rabbit hole thinking ELDM's would be close, boy was I disappointed. After a lot of $$ I have come to the conclusion that Hornady is just overpriced garbage.
I am just going to order more Berger projo's and keep on keeping on.
When I started my bolt gun journey I was able to obtain almost 1000rnds of factory Berger/Lapua SRP and learned to reload on that.
I purchased a new Surgeon Scalpel in November and a buddy gave me an old box of discontinued AMAX's which shot a ragged hole.
So I went down the rabbit hole thinking ELDM's would be close, boy was I disappointed. After a lot of $$ I have come to the conclusion that Hornady is just overpriced garbage.
I am just going to order more Berger projo's and keep on keeping on.
Wow...it appears you are right. Never noticed this before but this seems to say that a chamber to the datum line can be .004" shorter than a cartridge to the datum line and still be in spec. Weird
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Had a rifle chambered by Spartan Precision in 6.5cm. As soon as I had it home I cycled some Hornady eld-x 143’s through to check feeding. Had tight bolt close the first round, then had the second round get stuck and come apart when I finally got the bolt back. Luckily for me, Marc was a class act when I came back with the rifle and ammo. Turns out Marc cuts great chambers and Hornady sucks.
It a pity that, for the small varmint calibers I like, Hornady sorta monopolizes the “good and fast” end of the spectrum (204, 17 Hornet, 22 Hornet, 22-250).
I have gotten some wild ES/SD numbers from 40gr 204 Superperformance, for sure. See below.
I have gotten some wild ES/SD numbers from 40gr 204 Superperformance, for sure. See below.
It's why one should be into handloading.
I never use factory ammo in any gun I've owned for over 50 yrs.
Tolerence stack up between ammo and chamber, dirt, powder grime, and slight inconsistencies in manufacturing can cause problems with ammo fitting the gun.
Pull the bullets, save the powder, resize the case to fit your gun...or jam the bullets incase of excessive head space to push the shoulder forward.
Or adjust the headspace by moving the barrel in or out to fit the ammo with shim stock or a barrel nut...but I'd just "fix" the ammo.
It isn't what you paid for but it's not hard to fix...and why I never shoot factory ammo in anything.
I never use factory ammo in any gun I've owned for over 50 yrs.
Tolerence stack up between ammo and chamber, dirt, powder grime, and slight inconsistencies in manufacturing can cause problems with ammo fitting the gun.
Pull the bullets, save the powder, resize the case to fit your gun...or jam the bullets incase of excessive head space to push the shoulder forward.
Or adjust the headspace by moving the barrel in or out to fit the ammo with shim stock or a barrel nut...but I'd just "fix" the ammo.
It isn't what you paid for but it's not hard to fix...and why I never shoot factory ammo in anything.
Yes you can have a max cartridge length be in print and a min chamber and both be in print ....but it will not chamber.
A chamber that is plus .003" will chamber that cartridge.
So a plus .004" to .005" chamber will be fine for a minimum working combat type rifle. Even a plus .008" is definitely kept in the field, but it can be a plus .010" before it needs serious attention.
I had a long 308 factory chamber about .007" but it was accurate so after the first firing, adjust your FL die, and it's no issue the Lapua brass would go 40 firings with minimal sizing.
One should not go minimum chamber in a working rifle with factory ammo.
It's great for handloaders and target use.
I run generally plus .001" to .002" because I hand load.
Even use the new Apha brass as a go gauge and the "go" gauge as a "no go"... in my 6 Dasher.
It's a target rifle and I handload,... but would never use something like that as a working or combat rifle, where you have no control over the ammo making, it could get you killed in a hurry.
A chamber that is plus .003" will chamber that cartridge.
So a plus .004" to .005" chamber will be fine for a minimum working combat type rifle. Even a plus .008" is definitely kept in the field, but it can be a plus .010" before it needs serious attention.
I had a long 308 factory chamber about .007" but it was accurate so after the first firing, adjust your FL die, and it's no issue the Lapua brass would go 40 firings with minimal sizing.
One should not go minimum chamber in a working rifle with factory ammo.
It's great for handloaders and target use.
I run generally plus .001" to .002" because I hand load.
Even use the new Apha brass as a go gauge and the "go" gauge as a "no go"... in my 6 Dasher.
It's a target rifle and I handload,... but would never use something like that as a working or combat rifle, where you have no control over the ammo making, it could get you killed in a hurry.
I cannot love this post more. Especially for those professional shooters, deploying and protecting lives. I’ve seen 80 rounds of factory hornady match 6mm creed with 20% of them with 6.5 creed. Guess how we found out, luckily, not shooting, but a couple of bolts being beat open. Gotta love AI rifles. Not that yours are sub par at all, it’s just that’s what’s issued up here in AK.
Yeah, Im still waiting for an invite to be able to attend one of Terry's courses.
Just 'cause I ain't a pro, or LEO/agency dude... doesn't mean that I can't share the best dick jokes on class for a couple days.
I will bring my tape...
Just 'cause I ain't a pro, or LEO/agency dude... doesn't mean that I can't share the best dick jokes on class for a couple days.
I will bring my tape...
He has an affinity for MuHrEeNs so I’m sure we could both go and provide comedic relief and then some
I'm still a go & no-go gauge guy.
I thought my barrel chambering instructor was fucken with me when he started cutting tape to place on the back of a cartridge. (He had a very comical nature)
I asked why we didn't just use my go AND no-go gauge. He replied he'd never seen a no-go to true spec. Well, we found out mine was in spec.
This point brought up by Terry makes complete sense. If the cartridge is out of spec, adding tape compounds the problem.
I thought my barrel chambering instructor was fucken with me when he started cutting tape to place on the back of a cartridge. (He had a very comical nature)
I asked why we didn't just use my go AND no-go gauge. He replied he'd never seen a no-go to true spec. Well, we found out mine was in spec.
This point brought up by Terry makes complete sense. If the cartridge is out of spec, adding tape compounds the problem.
I have only been doing the precision thing for four decades or so and few hundred thousand rds so I still have a lot to learn but I have seen exactly what Terry Cross is saying. Bad freaking ammo quality control
I started using a Wilson Case 308 gauge years ago because a smith told me about them. I dropped my ammo for use in them to see if it was in spec before dinging out the hard way.
That was for 308 because that was my duty round
Since I shoot so many different calibers these days I just go to safe place and make sure my ammo will, freely move in magazines and chamber in intended weapon plus visual inspection for obvious defects.
It has gotten bad lately with at least one student a class with ammo that did not go off, won’t chamber or just sucks. This is all
match ammo from reputable manufacturers
I started using a Wilson Case 308 gauge years ago because a smith told me about them. I dropped my ammo for use in them to see if it was in spec before dinging out the hard way.
That was for 308 because that was my duty round
Since I shoot so many different calibers these days I just go to safe place and make sure my ammo will, freely move in magazines and chamber in intended weapon plus visual inspection for obvious defects.
It has gotten bad lately with at least one student a class with ammo that did not go off, won’t chamber or just sucks. This is all
match ammo from reputable manufacturers
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