Sidearms & Scatterguns Two more P320s discharge in Holster.

[stefan73]

It could have also been desperation......if I remember right allegedly when Cohen took over in the early 2000's it was suggested that Sig USA was basically on the verge of going under with only like 100 employees (estimates put them at about 2000 now). Cohen evidently pushed the idea that Sig should start pushing AR platforms instead of just handguns and evidently that was a huge shot of profit into the company.

Poking around on it, it looks like he took over in 2004, and quickly hired Bud Fini to handle marketing etc. Fini is quoted as saying in a interview in 2013:

"The last five to seven years have just been phenomenal for us," he said, adding that the company doubled the size of its New Hampshire facilities in 2011, and then again in 2013. A main driver of that growth is from the rifle business, he said. "We wanted to change that perception so that we were a rifle company that makes handguns, and we are well on our way towards that," he said.

So for awhile it probably looked pretty amazing on the balance sheets, might still for all I know.

All that said, you can have a super profitable company, great for investors etc. and still be shit for consumers.

So, he did good for them and then wrecked them. Their name is going to be shit for a while as a result of this. People were already complaining after the MPX issues about being BETA testers for SIG's stuff.

But then, people are still drinking piss water aka Bud Light so who knows. We do seem to have a 10 second attention span.

 

[flogxal]

I’m not a lawyer. What do the lawyers in the audience think of the act of trying to improve the safety of the P320 (for a second time)? In context of the legal cases against them, that is.

In torts (business & personal injury), there is a principle that says, "acts of remediation should not be used as admissions of guilt," but the principle is not an on/off, yes/no application. It just makes things stickier on how you present it to the jury. Defense counsel for SIG USA will surely argue the principle and say it should stick here. Whether the jury comes to the same conclusion is a different Q.

 

[padom]

Just got back from putting another 500rd through my P320 XFive DH3. Running dot drills drawing from holster 2 shots at a time. I came home alive, it hasn't shot me yet. I have 4000-5000rd through this guns so far.

I guess I dont understand the P320 issue or if its all P320 or random cases. I do have thr Grey Guns trigger kit in my FCU I installed. Trigger is great. Not sure if thst changes things either...

 

[Jadazu]

^^^ yes, but...

I have often put as many rounds thru Colt SSA and Bisleys, holstered with six rounds in the cylinder.

But I don't think that the P320 is any safer than a Colt single action, cocked with a round under the hammer. Ok for games, but not ok for carry.

 

[flogxal]

padom -- a guy in my pistol club has a Gray Guns P320, he let me shoot it, it didn't hurt me and the trigger felt really really nice, as did the balance, ergos, recoil, etc. This was maybe 1.5 yrs ago I think.

These days the internet can indeed make mtns of molehills. But as someone who has spent time defending mfrs on complex machine product liability, I would say, it's a bit more Las Vegas to keep using a stock P320 generically, and the Gray Guns workover yours got might render the as-stock issues nullified. If I were in your shoes I'd still have a pang of Las Vegas in me, but that's probably just me.

 

[oldrifleman]

^^^ yes, but...

I have often put as many rounds thru Colt SSA and Bisleys, holstered with six rounds in the cylinder.

But I don't think that the P320 is any safer than a Colt single action, cocked with a round under the hammer. Ok for games, but not ok for carry.

I don’t carry striker pistols, BUT, if I did I wouldn’t worry about the 320. There are so many of them out there and for so many years and 5 idiots decide to shoot them selves and a bunch of ambulance chasers decide to get rich, nah not worth worrying about.

 

[padom]

padom -- a guy in my pistol club has a Gray Guns P320, he let me shoot it, it didn't hurt me and the trigger felt really really nice, as did the balance, ergos, recoil, etc. This was maybe 1.5 yrs ago I think.

These days the internet can indeed make mtns of molehills. But as someone who has spent time defending mfrs on complex machine product liability, I would say, it's a bit more Las Vegas to keep using a stock P320 generically, and the Gray Guns workover yours got might render the as-stock issues nullified. If I were in your shoes I'd still have a pang of Las Vegas in me, but that's probably just me.

My P320 Xfive DH3 is one of my favorite guns to shoot. Its stupid stupid accurate and has virtually no recoil. I mean crazy accurate. I run off 5000 at a time of my 124gr Xtreme HP 4.0gr Titegroup load on my automated 9mm 1050 for years and this thing just stacks them right on top each other, its so easy. This P320 and my custom 5" Prodigy are my 2 favorite pistols. They just ran and are crazy accurate. Ill keep running it without a second thought.

 

[Chief_Rick]

Air Force makes arrest in airman’s shooting death involving M18 pistol

The Air Force has arrested an airman in connection with the July 20 death of another airman, which involved a Sig Sauer M18 and led the service to suspend the use of the pistol following the incident.

In a Friday statement, a Department of the Air Force spokesperson said that the unidentified arrested person is accused of making a false official statement, obstruction of justice and involuntary manslaughter.

 

[carbonbased]

A guy that knows a VP at Sig (Phil Strader) may have stumbled upon a contributing factor of the P320 uncommanded discharges. I guess he posted a video about the issue and Phil reached out to him.

Basically, a very slight incorrect reassembling of a P320 can put it into a potentially dangerous state.



What I’m a little unclear on is if you reassemble it incorrectly, then lock the slide back (edit: which retracts a magazine block), which allows you to insert a mag…will it still go off when it shouldn’t? And how this incorrect assembly interacts with certain more sloppily fit P320s that aren’t perfectly clean?

Anyway, I don’t have a P320 to test.

 

[carbonbased]

More context

 

[carbonbased]

Just found the Gun University’s written P320 recap, which is the best recap I’ve read. I learned that the Army’s test was inexplicably stopped at 12,500 rounds instead of the planned 35,000.

Sig P320 Review

In this article we will be reviewing the SIG Sauer P320 by diving into the controversy and timeline of events

gununiversity.com

Here’s the summary doc of the military’s competition. The GU article states that:

…the MHS competition reliability requirements were for the pistols to shoot 5,000 Mean Rounds Between Failure (MRBF) (an average of 5,000 rounds of ammunition fired before a part breaks) and 2,000 Mean Rounds Between Stoppage (MRBS) (an average of 2,000 rounds fired before a stoppage defined as “any deficiency that prevents the pistol from operating as intended, but is corrected through immediate action.”)​

​

With ball ammunition…the XM17 experienced a stoppage every 343 rounds.​

​

With ball ammunition…on average, the XM18 failed after 3,906 rounds and experienced a stoppage every 196 rounds.​

​

(Ed: Lots of the stoppages were due to the slide not locking back)​

​

Removing the slide-lock issue would increase the results to only 708 MRBS for the XM17 and 950 MRBS for the XM18 – both at less than half of the requirement.​

For reference, last time the US conducted a trial for a military pistol, the Sig P226 did 2877 MRBS and the M9 did 1750 MRBS.

Ugh.

 

[ToddM]

That is a good summary, it's also interesting they both ran much better with "special purpose" (I assume to be HP's) compared to FMJ's when that's usually the opposite problem handguns suffer from.

"To improve the reliability with ball ammunition without degrading any of the other attributes of the weapon, the vendor made adjustments to the magazine spring, magazine follower, slide geometry, and the internal components."

It also doesn't say if they re-tested the special purpose ammo reliability after the changes were made.

I have to admit, while I only have one 320, I've always assembled it the "correct" way, mostly because doing it the other way seems a lot like a monkey fucking a football, even the guy trying to demonstrate it struggled and it's his normal. However, I do agree with him, if it's that easy to assemble the gun in a dangerous condition it's probably not ideal, but RTFM is a real thing. However, years and years ago when everyone started making striker pistols to compete against glock, one of the huge complaints against the glock design was that you had to pull the trigger to disassemble it and I seem to remember quite a few "disassembly" discharges with them being reported. So a huge selling/contract point for those competitors was certainly that you didn't have to pull the trigger for disassembly.

It would be interesting to see if other strike pistols that have similar take down methods, say the XDm etc. have the same issue if assembled "incorrectly" or not.

 

[Lightning8]

I don’t carry striker pistols, BUT, if I did I wouldn’t worry about the 320. There are so many of them out there and for so many years and 5 idiots decide to shoot them selves and a bunch of ambulance chasers decide to get rich, nah not worth worrying about.

The issue is not the millions made sitting in arms room, safe, closet - the issue is the dramatically smaller number carried daily in a holster with a round in chamber. Then the odds of uncommanded discharge look more concerning.

 

[ToddM]

Yeah that's part of the problem right, 90% of handgun owners probably don't even own a holster, and 99% of those that do are probably not using it on a regular basis, or in any sort of dynamic way. That said there must be tons of 320/x-fives in competition use and we haven't really heard of issues in that venue. However, there you are also dealing with people that are for the most part reasonably skilled firearm enthusiasts and there are enough safety measures in place in most competitions that even if you had an accidental discharge it's unlikely anyone would be hurt. If no one gets hurt, it's never going to make it to the news or any stats.

It's still hard to dismiss the obvious increase in these incidents with the 320, from what I could find out they are still not the most popular LEO sidearm, so clearly there are other options out there, which are not having these concerning discharges as frequently. Also we can claim (and rightfully so) that a lot of LEO folks are not gun enthusiasts or highly skilled in gun internals, but those same people don't seem to have as many incidents like this with other guns. Why? Who knows, it could be dozens of factors or combinations of factors.

The other thing that's interesting is that someone important from Sig, reached out to him and they clearly noticed him doing something wrong during assembly that they knew could cause this issue. That suggests very strongly that Sig is and has been well aware that a very subtle mistake in assembly can cause an unsafe condition on the weapon.

 

[flogxal]

I think SIG USA ultimately will have to deal more with the choices made in materials for certain parts, or the QA/QC related to those materials/parts, than whether then UDs happened due to slack weapon handling skills. But the technical quarrels over materials choice, they don't make good press. Except maybe among engineers and materials science people.

 

[ToddM]

 

[ironpony52]

I picked up a P320 compact yesterday $319 out the door with 3 mags................... cleaned and loaded it when I got home fingers crossed hope it doesn't shoot me

 

[oldrifleman]

I picked up a P320 compact yesterday $319 out the door with 3 mags................... cleaned and loaded it when I got home fingers crossed hope it doesn't shoot me

If prices drop maybe I will pick one up just for giggles.

 

[ToddM]

So many good ones....

 

[ironpony52]

 

[carbonbased]

Breaking this dude’s argument down:

1. He’s never had a P320 UD
2. He’s personally seen a P320 ND (SWAT guy) standing right next to him. Has close up video evidence of a finger trapped between holster and trigger.
3. Wants to see a vid of a guy standing, like arms crossed, with P320 going off in holster to be convinced. Or going off on top of a fridge.
4. Concerned about the P320 controversy affects on “industry” (?) and “shooter confidence” (??)
5. Discounts all other videos. Why doesn’t he play some and analyze them for us, and tell us why said videos are invalid?
6. Apparently not interested in how the P320 works inside or that it has no trigger safety booger like a Glock

Put in a charitable way, he’s not the most analytical fellow I’ve ever seen. And he seems weirdly interested in Sig’s well-being.

 

[lash]

I put a pistol up high and out of sight while we had the neighbor kids visiting us. Kind of forgot I put it there when getting something above my head out and it dropped 7+ feet to the floor. Since it was loaded with one in the pipe, I naturally cringed as it hit. But being as it is a Kahr P9 with the ridiculously long trigger pull, I really didn’t have to worry.

If it had been a P320, I could have shot myself in the balls and I could transition to Chinese as Won Hung Lo.

 

[Makinchips208]

Can’t spell GOOBERS without GBRS

 

[Milf Dots]

Totally un related.. they should have just went with glocks. It's tested.

Nah, the HK vp, CZ P10, M&P gen2, Ruger RXM and even the p365 X-Fuse, are all better pistols out of the box and worthy of issuance by large LE departments. I didn't mention the pistols that I'm a little less fond of but that are serving as issued pistols like the Walther PPQ at a County Sheriff's Office in Florida, Beretta APXa1, and I believe LAPD uses the FN 509.

 

[Milf Dots]

I have a p320 and like it on a range but I would take precautions if I were to carry it chambered, mainly cycling the weapon every time it’s unholstered. It has a fatal flaw that isn’t overly discussed at least in my opinion. On most striker pistols when you pull to the wall then release the striker safety returns to its safe position blocking the striker, the p320 doesn’t. So when you pull to the wall(or if the trigger moves at all holstering and re-holstering multiple times).the striker safety stays disengaged. You disengage every internal safely on that weapon in the first few millimeters of trigger pull, and the internal safeties don’t engage again until it is cycled. Combine that with the lack of a trigger donegal preventing objects from engaging the trigger or the trigger moving intentionally and the discharges don’t surprise me, their are probably a number of people at this moment that haven’t cycled their weapon recently, where the trigger has been slightly actuated that have a fully charged striker and a open striker channel. I just prefer the Glock, CZ, or Beretta striker pistols where the striker isn’t fully charged, it’s just a little more piece of mind for myself at least. The mim part issue is also real, I’ve seen pictures of different p320’s that show different levels of wear and dimensions particularly on the ledge holding the striker that weren’t reassuring.

You made the 'fatal flaw' part about the p320 design, 'the striker safety stays disengaged', a statement of fact and not an opinion. I'd have made sure I was absolutely clear it's just a hypothesis and opinion not backed up by any objective evidence. You could go back and edit or request an edit to get rid of the bad info.

So far, none of the p320s carried by lawsuit plaintiffs have been shown to be capable of what you're describing. Sig just won another suit this week, bringing the total to about 20-3 wins-losses for Sig, and two of those lost lawsuits were in cities with large populations of dumb people who are biased against gun makers- the cities of Philadelphia PA and Atlanta GA. My understanding is they're appealing the lost cases. In one of those two losses the jury admitted they voted against Sig because it didn't have a trigger safety, and that wasn't even part of what the jury was to consider.

It's my humble opinion that a trigger safety dongle would eliminate the drama, which, based on who is involved in the lawsuits, is almost exclusively made up of uniformed LEOs with weapon mounted lights on p320s, using active retention duty holsters of older designs that have the bad feature of large openings around the tops and perimeters. I say almost exclusively, and not "ALL".

It's also my humble opinion the Sig p365 isn't having these issues because it's a better all around design than the p320 and has a longer trigger travel and reset, but they're also not being carried in any(?) duty holsters for uniformed officers, although the p365 FUSE is a duty sized pistol worthy of consideration for department issue.

An interesting observation- there are so many very good and safe polymer striker fired pistols on the market that aren't made by Sig or Glock- CZ P series, HK VP series, M&P gen2, Ruger RXM, that LE leadership shouldn't have a hard time making a competent choice.

 

[JR1200W3]

......, is almost exclusively made up of uniformed LEOs with weapon mounted lights on p320s, using active retention duty holsters of older designs that have the bad feature of large openings around the tops and perimeters.

This is a really weird way to characterize the situation. Frankly, I'm pretty confused by what you're trying to get at here. "Light mounted pistols, Active retention, A large opening at the top of the holster"

As opposed to what? Isn't that what any professional that uses a firearm going to use in terms of general characteristics? What law enforcement or military holster isn't going to be like this? Are you insinuating that a light mounted pistol in an active retention system holster, with a large opening at the top makes the safety concerns about the sig pistol illegitimate? What holster uses a small opening? I think you're trying to say safariland SLS without saying Safariland SLS but I don't understand how that alleviates the problem? It almost seems like you're trying to shift the blame to the holster, but I could just be misinterpreting.

 

[carbonbased]

If it had been a P320, I could have shot myself in the balls and I could transition to Chinese as Yon Hung Lo.

Listen here, Hung Lo, the SIG P320 Project Manager Ty Twhatt wants to have a word with you in the broom closet, STAT.

 

[Milf Dots]

This is a really weird way to characterize the situation. Frankly, I'm pretty confused by what you're trying to get at here. "Light mounted pistols, Active retention, A large opening at the top of the holster"

As opposed to what? Isn't that what any professional that uses a firearm going to use in terms of general characteristics? What law enforcement or military holster isn't going to be like this? Are you insinuating that a light mounted pistol in an active retention system holster, with a large opening at the top makes the safety concerns about the sig pistol illegitimate? What holster uses a small opening? I think you're trying to say safariland SLS without saying Safariland SLS but I don't understand how that alleviates the problem? It almost seems like you're trying to shift the blame to the holster, but I could just be misinterpreting.

Did you see the part where I said the p320 needs a trigger safety dongle? I don't believe that 100 percent of the cases against Sig are legitimate cases of defective pistols- I believe that at least some are the result of negligence and or foreign objects in holsters. Below I show proof of other brands of pistols discharging in holsters via human fingers and other foreign objects depressing triggers, so we know it happens.

Many of the objective observers to the p320 story are still waiting for a single case, even amongst the 100+ p320s alleged by lawyers to have defects- of a provable defect that causes repeatable self discharges, but observations have noted the following:

- Uniformed officers rather than plain clothes, are the most likely p320 users to have lots of stuff hanging from their bodies that can get tangled in holsters such as keys, wires, straps, clothing cords & toggles. This has happened and has caused unintended discharges with ARs (one is on video, officer was in a retail store responding to a call of man with gun) and pistols to include most of the popular LE brands.

- Uniformed officers rather than plain clothes, are the most likely to fight with a suspect, which can result in debris getting into holsters- fingers, twigs, stones, gravel, etc, while those same officers often have to quickly reholster, sometimes without looking, while suspects are not completely immobilized.

- Uniformed officers rather than plain clothes, frequently, but not always, have lights mounted to their pistols and those lights require a bigger holster with less positive "lock in" of the pistols while holstered- it's a known design issue for WML holsters that most of the major holster makers, Safariland, Alien Gear, Blackhawk, etc., have been working to improve upon and some of the newer designs have reduced those design compromises especially the large perimiter gaps. See links below about holster design issues.

All of those above variables combined could and have contributed to issues with p320s and other brands of pistols, but more so with the p320, probably because it doesn't have a trigger safety unlike all the other polymer striker pistols used by US LE.


Holsters aren't impenetrable vaults:

Uniformed officer at a school in Minnesota is speaking to young kids in a classroom and one small boy reaches his finger into the officer's duty holster and depresses the Glock's trigger causing a discharge in the holster https://www.foxnews.com/us/student-fires-officers-holstered-gun-at-minnesota-school

Holster issues

Holster issues

Holster issues

S&W M&P unintended discharge in holster, likely from the belt buckle

Glock discharges in holster during struggle with suspect

New Orleans PD's Glock 22 accidentally discharged in holster during struggle

 

[JR1200W3]

I have used the Safariland holster professionally since 2012. If the safety margin of a pistol is so narrow it can't be used in a Safariland SLS, with a pistol light, and the operator can't have other kit on then it's margin for use is too narrow and is unacceptable.

I have no doubt there's a few cases where people have used the issue at hand to cover up their NDs. And I am aware of incidents in which people have had NDs by inserting their fingers into the trigger guard when reholstering. But the existence of these things don't disprove the extensince of a too narrow safety margin or even mechanical flaw in the 320. Trying to use circumstances supposition of associated issues as causation is a definable flaw in logic. Especially from a small sample size observation.

 

[0724/1030]

Tough to compete with a pistol being banned by many ranges.

An NRA Shooting Sports Journal | Max Michel and Lena Miculek Announce Departures from Team SIG Sauer

Max Michel and Lena Miculek leave Team SIG Sauer after nearly 30 years combined, signaling a major shift for the company’s competitive shooting team.

www.ssusa.org