I bought a 22” Seekins DMR in 6 ARC and will start shooting this week. I want as much accuracy as possible out of it so I’m planning on doing barrel break in like a bolt gun since I’ll be shooting out to 1000. I know everyone has an opinion about it and if it’s worth it or if it does anything but it can’t hurt. Any recommendations on best practices with gas gun accuracy in mind? About how many rounds until I should care about how it groups? I sent them an email but I don’t think Seekins recommends anything specific for their barrels.
Gas Gun Break In
- Thread starter hhudson
- Start date
I have never broken in a barrel on any firearm.
There is no quantative information that it makes any difference.
It's one of those things where humans describe factors to some concern that make the human feel better.
Did not break in my SR25,
Shot 1&1/2" groups from the first.-Richard
There is no quantative information that it makes any difference.
It's one of those things where humans describe factors to some concern that make the human feel better.
Did not break in my SR25,
Shot 1&1/2" groups from the first.-Richard
Well thank you Socrates.
This is what “breaks in” AR barrels:
The gas port stops the metal migration. You can advance the gas port metal migration by reducing it by focusing a brush with Iosso or Thorroclean (Made by Iosso) on the gas port.
Think about it. What’s the difference between a gas gun & bolt gun barrel? Other than a lot of things, the biggest distinction is one has a hole in it to obturate the bullet in weird ways.
The gas port stops the metal migration. You can advance the gas port metal migration by reducing it by focusing a brush with Iosso or Thorroclean (Made by Iosso) on the gas port.
Think about it. What’s the difference between a gas gun & bolt gun barrel? Other than a lot of things, the biggest distinction is one has a hole in it to obturate the bullet in weird ways.
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Sure, it might not do anything. But it can’t hurt anything. Nothing to lose but a couple minutes and some patches.
I generally follow the above, it cant hurt anything right?
I clean the barrel prior to shooting to make sure there are no shavings or anything else in the barrel and that it is properly cleaned of any leftover solvents or lube.
Shoot one, patch, repeat for first 10 rounds. Usually dont shoot more than 30-40 on day one, go home clean it thoroughly, then I just shoot and clean as normal.
I clean the barrel prior to shooting to make sure there are no shavings or anything else in the barrel and that it is properly cleaned of any leftover solvents or lube.
Shoot one, patch, repeat for first 10 rounds. Usually dont shoot more than 30-40 on day one, go home clean it thoroughly, then I just shoot and clean as normal.
I have not done break in on a barrel in about 45 years, last one did not reward me so I quit, never seen a detrimental effects from the decision.
That plus one is actually free floated while the other has a stainless steel tube attached to it
I clean the barrel, go shoot all the ammo that I bring to the range, then go home and clean again. Repeat as necessary.
I did say, “Other than a lot of things”…The glaring ass difference is a gaping ass hole taking chunks off the bullet or imparting obfuscation ass it passes by the hole.
I used to do barrel break ins because everyone preached about it.
Haven’t done one in 10 years. I don’t see the point as it never improved accuracy, never made a barrel last longer, and essentially just wasted a handful of ammo for no gain.
All of my rifles shoot, WOA barrels, Proof barrels, Odin barrels. Nothing has ever had anything done other than a good cleaning before first firing and then load development.
Haven’t done one in 10 years. I don’t see the point as it never improved accuracy, never made a barrel last longer, and essentially just wasted a handful of ammo for no gain.
All of my rifles shoot, WOA barrels, Proof barrels, Odin barrels. Nothing has ever had anything done other than a good cleaning before first firing and then load development.
I give all my AK's 100/200 rounds out without overheating then a good cleaning and grease job after that its time to torture them
I just put a really nice custom Bartlein barrel on my precision AR, it's stupid accurate (sub MOA). My brand new break in procedure was to zero the rifle, chrono/shoot it at distance to confirm drops, then burn off the extra ammo I had for some close range drills. All told it was about 55 rounds first range trip, then I did a basic clean on the rifle.
Second range trip was to shoot (and win) at a long range DMR match, about 200 rounds.
Barrel is now broken in.
Second range trip was to shoot (and win) at a long range DMR match, about 200 rounds.
Barrel is now broken in.
I pretty much do the same thing. The caveat is I try not to shoot too quick and let the barrel cool down for a few mins in between 10 shot groups (50 shots total during first range trip).I just put a really nice custom Bartlein barrel on my precision AR, it's stupid accurate (sub MOA). My brand new break in procedure was to zero the rifle, chrono/shoot it at distance to confirm drops, then burn off the extra ammo I had for some close range drills. All told it was about 55 rounds first range trip, then I did a basic clean on the rifle.
Second range trip was to shoot (and win) at a long range DMR match, about 200 rounds.
Barrel is now broken in.
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Depends on the barrel, depends on the gas port, depends on the chambering job. Just like most stuff, there isn't a one size fits all answer.
zero the gun at 100 and then shoot it to distance. nothing magical will happen by the so called break in
We are not discussing just barrel cleaning but a recipe of firing a certain number of rounds, cleaning the barrel and repeating according to whatever guru you are eumulating. Wastes ammo, time and depending on the caliber, shoulder and blast wear!
-Richard
Ask Seekins......
FWIW there's a post on another forum from 2022 from someone that asked Seekins at the time, their posted response was:
"These rifles are ready to shoot right out of the box with no special procedure required! We recommend cleaning the barrel with carbon cleaner and patches after 20 or so rounds once you have around 75 rounds through the rifle the barrel should be ready for any velocity testing for ballistic data! Please let us know if you have any other questions."
I always think it's funny when a company states something needs no special procedure and is ready out of he box, and then proceeds in the next sentence to tell you their recommended special procedure
FWIW there's a post on another forum from 2022 from someone that asked Seekins at the time, their posted response was:
"These rifles are ready to shoot right out of the box with no special procedure required! We recommend cleaning the barrel with carbon cleaner and patches after 20 or so rounds once you have around 75 rounds through the rifle the barrel should be ready for any velocity testing for ballistic data! Please let us know if you have any other questions."
I always think it's funny when a company states something needs no special procedure and is ready out of he box, and then proceeds in the next sentence to tell you their recommended special procedure
I’ll paraphrase, but someone once said “Barrel break in procedures on quality barrels are bogus. They just keep barrel companies in business.”
And @Frank Green has talked about this here in other threads.
And @Frank Green has talked about this here in other threads.
Again guys the only thing your breaking in on a good barrel is the throat. The chamber reamer is going to cut opposite direction of bullet travel. The nicer the finish the reamer leaves the faster the throat will polish and break in.
If the reamer leaves a really rough finish.... it can lead to more fouling initially and some people think when they see that it's a barrel problem but the fouling can start all the way back at the throat.
I know ammunition makers that we make test barrels for.... all of them to some extent will run the barrel in. If the barrel is going to change at all velocity wise it will do it within a 100 rounds. Not every barrel sees a velocity change. That I feel is more dependent on caliber, velocity and the amount of powder your dumping down the bore and carbon build up as well as..... how are you cleaning it and how often in between the number of rounds fired. Also the type of bullets being fired.... some bullets will foul more than others. You have a lot of variables to contend with at times.
Some barrels the bores are so rough... they might never break in and foul like pricks.
Bullets, powder, barrel.... those three things have to work together. One thing can be a problem but not the other two... or it's a combination of those three that the gun won't like.
A good barrel is the one constant more than any other in the equation.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
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Is “obfuscate“ a standard gas-gun term?
Because normally, it means:
Not trying to be a dick, just asking a q
It is obturate.
To "bullet obturate" refers to the process where a soft bullet expands, swells, or deforms to tightly fill the bore of a firearm's barrel and engage its rifling upon firing. This obturation is crucial because it creates a gas seal, preventing hot propellant gases from escaping around the projectile and ensuring that the maximum amount of force is used to propel the bullet for higher velocity and accuracy.
How Obturation Works
- Expansion:
Under immense pressure and heat from the fired propellant, the soft material of the bullet (often lead) expands or "upsets" to fill any gaps, such as undersized bullets or hollow bases, to match the precise diameter of the barrel's bore.
- Gas Seal:
This expansion effectively creates a seal, preventing hot gases from escaping past the bullet, which would reduce muzzle velocity and cause damage or inaccuracies.
- Engaging Rifling:
The obturated bullet also fully engages the barrel's rifling, which imparts spin and stabilizes the projectile for improved accuracy.
^^^^^
I'll also add this... depending on actual bullet diameter and the actual bore and groove size of a given barrel... the bullet will not always expand enough to seal the bore per se if you want to call it that.
Sometimes industry uses terms in a non-standard way, but not in the case.
Thanks for clearing that up!
add in bullet composition. For instance, copper mono bullets obturate better when they have a jump to hit the rifling, giving more engraving force. The harder bullet composition doesn't have the benefit of softer lead to deform into the rifling.
ssssoooo a few mag dumps of corrosive/ buffalo bore /super vel /my private stash of godzilla killa / lead sinker cast ammo /hell even tracer are all good for out of the box semis ......jus chekin cuz i am finishing up this morning on an AK at the range
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It gets more critical with any solid type bullet. Even solid copper or bronze bullets etc...
The solid bullets don't obturate like a copper/lead (cup and core) bullets do.
That's one reason I feel the solids are more picky when it comes to accuracy. Quite a few barrels we make for guys shooting the ELR type guns we stamp the breech face for example... instead of the normal .300" x .308" stamp we will stamp the bore and groove to the 4th decimal place. So .3003" x .3082" for example. Warner tool requests this on every blank we make them. Then they make bullets to match the barrel. If I recall correctly Al told me they will make the bullets like another +.0001x or so bigger.
I also feel lower quality higher production type barrels where the bore and groove sizes tend to be all over the place and even in some of the better button barrels which the sizes can vary more as well... in addition to twist rate uniformity.... thus reason why the solid bullets are more temperamental because they don't obturate like a cup and core bullet does.
I won't name the ammo / bullet maker but they will not use an ammunition test barrel until they know the throat of the chamber is broke in... again about 100 rounds before they will shoot any solid bullets thru the test barrel as well as they say you need to clean the barrel good before switching to and from cup and core bullets to the solids or fouling and accuracy can be an issue.
Thank you for all of the insight Frank and Ronin. I appreciate it.
Even copper alloys. We've had issues with the Cx/GMX line with hammer forged barrels because of the inconsistency along the length of bore/groove diameter from the forging process. It allows in-bore yaw and blow-by that a cup&core bullet will swell to eliminate. Once you've squeezed a copper solid down, it doesn't swell back out. End result is some pretty awesome dispersion (4-8" groups at 100yd, where the same bullets in a Bartlein will stack well inside 1 MOA).
As far as barrel break-in, we ran a test a year or so ago with factory barrels, mid-grade (button blanks), and high end cut-rifled barrels from a few manufacturers and tested pressure, velocity, and bore-scoped for the first 200 rounds one that we just shot 200 rounds, and one that we did a 'formal' break-in procedure on and we couldn't see a difference in any of them. YMMV. The internet will tell me we probably did it wrong....
eta: Obviously if some gross fouling shows up, address that, but for the most part the break in is for your mental state.
^^^^^^ we are on the same page! Thanks Ledzep!Even copper alloys. We've had issues with the Cx/GMX line with hammer forged barrels because of the inconsistency along the length of bore/groove diameter from the forging process. It allows in-bore yaw and blow-by that a cup&core bullet will swell to eliminate. Once you've squeezed a copper solid down, it doesn't swell back out. End result is some pretty awesome dispersion (4-8" groups at 100yd, where the same bullets in a Bartlein will stack well inside 1 MOA).
As far as barrel break-in, we ran a test a year or so ago with factory barrels, mid-grade (button blanks), and high end cut-rifled barrels from a few manufacturers and tested pressure, velocity, and bore-scoped for the first 200 rounds one that we just shot 200 rounds, and one that we did a 'formal' break-in procedure on and we couldn't see a difference in any of them. YMMV. The internet will tell me we probably did it wrong....
eta: Obviously if some gross fouling shows up, address that, but for the most part the break in is for your mental state.
Good way of putting it as well "for your mental state"
Later, Frank
Again like Ledzep said here ^^^^^^
It goes back to uniformity of bore and groove size over the length of the barrel. Not to mention uniformity of twist.
The more uniform the barrels bore dimensions are.... the more forgiving the barrel is going to be!
That was pretty cool for Ledzep to post those numbers... 4"-8" groups out of the hammer forged barrels but run the bullets thru a good barrel and they shoot! You don't have a bullet problem in this case.... you have a barrel problem.
Important to note that those hammer forged barrels would shoot other bullets (mostly cup and core) with acceptable accuracy, too. Even some softer monolithics, but the tolerance stack was right on the line such that our harder monolithic (Cx/GMX) would not spring back or swell back to accommodate the bore variance. It doesn't take much.
To fix situation you can
A) Make a better barrel
B) Make a softer bullet
C) Make a longer bearing surface to bridge the gap in those bore swells/shrinks
We made a longer bearing surface (ECx). The never-ending fight between higher BC and easier to get to shoot. The dumb looking high-drag bullets seem to always shoot really small groups
To fix situation you can
A) Make a better barrel
B) Make a softer bullet
C) Make a longer bearing surface to bridge the gap in those bore swells/shrinks
We made a longer bearing surface (ECx). The never-ending fight between higher BC and easier to get to shoot. The dumb looking high-drag bullets seem to always shoot really small groups
Last BartleinI got (chambered by @AccuSol-ERN ) I have I shot two single rounds, cleaned after each and got some good copper signs, then shot a 3 round group, cleaned and got VERY little copper and called it quits. Barrel with 1,700 rounds on it still shoots far better than me.
For me, the benefit of this abbreviated break in was that I was assured that I had a very well made throat. That's it.
And thanks for all your input....its nice to have a professional view of some of the issues we bat around. You and Frank are gold, IMO.
A very well respected barrel maker: Gas port with 100rnds fired. Gave issues first 150rnds then "broke in".
A barrel with 100rnds that shot great out the gate.
You might need a break in, or you might not. Depending on the metal migration at the gas port.
A barrel with 100rnds that shot great out the gate.
You might need a break in, or you might not. Depending on the metal migration at the gas port.
There is another thing I see in those photos that I have heard batted around. One gas port is almost completely in the groove and the other almost completely cut through a land.
That's a great observation. I'll look at the rest of the photos from a few other barrels and see if there is a pattern to this.
I had this happen to two Noveske barrels. The first one never improved and was replaced by them. The second did the same but I fixed it with a lot of 55gr down the barrel, and maybe some JB at the gas port. Eventually it started shooting ok.
That is outstanding. This barrel maker said, "Oh that's normal, just let us know if it doesn't break in..."
I've heard there are some barrel makers that make sure to drill the gas port in the grooves for exactly that reason, the idea that if you have a gas port through a land it's much more likely to cause issues.
Some of these retards' break in procedures eat up a significant portion of barrel life. Highly entertaining.
Well it's debatable!
My .02 on the situation of the gas port touching the land or in the groove. Thoughts in random order...
Does the barrel/gun maker have a timing fixture to make that happen? You will need a fixture/set up to do different gas port lengths as well as twist rates.
Size of the gas port vs the groove width? If the groove width for example on a .224/5.56 in a six groove barrel spec is .074" and the gas port is .092" there is no way that is going to happen. A 5R rifled barrel or a 4 groove because the grooves are wider it gives you more room to time up the port to fall in the groove.
The spec for ammunition test barrels with gas ports is the port has to be timed to fall in the groove. The front pressure port on a 224 type barrel is .060". On a .074" wide groove that gives us a total of .014" for clearance or if you will .007" per side. So yes we have timing fixtures/set ups so we put the port in the barrel in the groove. We have to time the ports for .224/5.56, .308/7.62 and .270cal, 6.5mm and 50cal etc...
I've seen gas ports in the groove or on the land and it didn't make a hill of beans difference. Not just in terms of accuracy but for abnormal port erosion.
Ideally if the port is going to hit the land I don't want to see it hitting the driving side of the land. When the bullet is going down the barrel it's being forced up against the driving side of the land. That's going to leave a sharp edge and along with if and when you start getting gas cutting effect in the port... the driving side of the land is going to beat the bullet up more. This can lead to bullet damage, copper fouling from the port towards the muzzle and in the end accuracy issues or bullet failures possibly but not in every single instance does it happen.
Some powders are more abrasive then others. I feel this can cause issues. As well as if you have a really high gas port pressure (higher than normal) it will also cause more erosion.
Some will say it's in the steel being soft or bad etc.... From what I've seen... there is no way to measure that. I've seen barrels that we've made done it but out of the same lot of steel...others have not. Statistically from what I've seen here the problem is really low if it happens.
Here is a kicker for ya.... in all of the ammunition pressure test barrels we've made with a gas port in it so they can measure bullet time / pressure at the port.... I haven't seen a single one where the ammo maker calls up with a problem. So with that being said... I rule out it being in the steel. In regards to the ammunition test barrels about 99% of them are being made out of SS now. Hardly any CM test barrels being made.
Some say CM steel barrels hold up better or don't do it but the SS barrels it is more prone to happen. Yet I have seen no data to support that anywhere. Read my last sentence in the previous paragraph.
I've seen it happen in button made barrels, cut rifled barrels and hammer forged barrels. Some will argue that the button barrels because the process work hardens the bore you have a less chance of this happening. I say no to that. So?
The only thing I can chalk it up to for the abnormal port erosion where it causes accuracy/bullet issues.... is the type of powder being used from abrasive types of powder and port pressure at the pressure port but I cannot tell you which powder and what pressures where that comes into play.
I do feel we still deal with a gas cutting effect from the powders when the bullet leaves the muzzle. That's why I don't like a 90 degree/sharp edge crowns. Gas cutting and easy cleaning rod damage. That's why all of our muzzle crowns get a 60 degree chamfer put on the barrels regardless if it's a bolt gun or gas gun. Also the 60 degree angle is on all ammunition test barrels for the military. It's a standard spec.
My thoughts on it.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
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Here is another thought for you... if the barrel has a hard chrome plated bore... is it a plating/adhesion issue?
I'll say the top picture for sure the gas port is hitting the driving side of the land but is it causing the burr in the gas port?
Bottom picture if I'm looking at the orientation correctly the port is hitting the trailing side of a land.
They show up on the trailing/muzzle side. It was clean & pristine before firing. Couple 416Rs like this.
I get it bud as to what your saying. There will always be some wear. That alone is the gas cutting effect when the bullet passes the gas port and the gases flow up into the gas system.
What you don't want to see happen is a burr (that's what I would call it) build up. That burr sticking up is to me what causes the problem in terms of accuracy. Who cares if there is some erosion as you won't stop it as long as it's below the surface of the bore/groove as then it doesn't seem to be an issue.
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