Reduced quality 22LR ammo - most match brands

[GuideDog]

Have you noticed a reduction in the quality or consistency of match 22LR ammo?

Seems recently (past 6 -12 months) winning a 22LR match is down to who has the most consistent (quality) brand of ammo. I look at what everyone is shooting. We all are having problems finding ammo, but also the quality of the batches seems degraded.

I miss a shot or two and think I'm going to loose just to find so has the other top scores. I ask their thoughts and the have said don't know why they missed.
I feel the same. I can feel that a shot is going to be on center and when it misses its a WTF moment. Can blame myself or the ammo but when I see all the others who missed I think it's the dam ammo. I don't use a chronograph. Never thought it was needed till this stuff happens.

What are your thoughts? Anyone chrono and can quantify this?

 

[oldrifleman]

It has always been this way.

 

[nockhunter]

The problem I have is that my rifle has a loose nut behind the trigger.
I am still going through the ammo I have had for a couple years, and I haven't been shooting that much either.

Mike

 

[Shootin25]

I can only blame myself….
Been lucky as of late with ammo..
And absolutely use a chrono.

 

[Budrichard]

Loooong ago I was taught to verbally call my shots.
Shoot, call the shot, verify in the spotting scope.
There are times when you KNOW your 'hold' was an X but it is not. In some cases I have seen 7.
Stopped shooting the first batch of CMP Eley for that reason, Now shoot Eley TenEx only in matches out to100yds.
Lapua Super Long range for 200yds.
At 200yds the horizontal and windage desperation. cover up any ammo problems.
-Richard

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I can only blame myself….
Been lucky as of late with ammo..
And absolutely use a chrono.
View attachment 8778465

I have the same problem when a shot goes astray! I find it amusing that some blame the ammo, it's never them or the rifle.
if anything in the case of Lapua their ammo is only getting better!

Lee

 

[Shootin25]

I have the same problem when a shot goes astray! I find it amusing that some blame the ammo, it's never them or the rifle.
if anything in the case of Lapua their ammo is only getting better!

Lee

Also amusing when the wind gets blamed after I just shot the same stage holding straight up in the same “switchy wind”…

 

[grauhanen]

The further the target the more possible it is that the ammo shows that it's not as alike as shooters might like.

It's not unusual at all to see more inconsistency as distance to target increases. The further the distance the more luck with the ammo comes into play.

Here's a target from a particularly good box of Midas with four ten-shot groups at 100. It was from last weekend. Not all groups with this lot are nearly as equal.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

The further the target the more possible it is that the ammo shows that it's not as alike as shooters might like.

It's not unusual at all to see more inconsistency as distance to target increases. The further the distance the more luck with the ammo comes into play.

Here's a target from a particularly good box of Midas with four ten-shot groups at 100. It was from last weekend. Not all groups with this lot are nearly as equal.

Yeah, and the further away more variables are happening that can't be seen. but the ammo is always the fault right!

Lee

 

[grauhanen]

Yeah, and the further away more variables are happening that can't be seen. but the ammo is always the fault right!

Lee

Lee, it's not the ammo's fault that it's better at 50 than it is at 100. It's the way it is.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Lee, it's not the ammo's fault that it's better at 50 than it is at 100. It's the way it is.

Yeah, and live in your fantasy world that all you misses were the ammo!

Lee

 

[6.5SH]

Yeah, and the further away more variables are happening that can't be seen. but the ammo is always the fault right!

Lee

Except when are using a Garmin or Athlon for every shot and see low or high velocity go under or over a target.
The only two misses I had this past weekend at 100 meters were due to exactly that, not how I was driving the rifle or wind.

 

[GuideDog]

Yeah, and live in your fantasy world that all you misses were the ammo!

Lee

Did someone say "ALL" misses were due to ammo, or was that implied?

In my case it's not the rifle, most likely not the shooter either although I'm not perfect and never implied that.
It seems some believe that there are zero great shooters and zero great rifles, and it's a fantasy that ammo cant be at fault. Sure I miss occasionally due to shooter error. I do know when I shook a bit. I also know when I fire a rock solid trigger pull and miss it can be the ammo.

When I see a rifle mounted to a full sled and the shooter is only touching the trigger and get a 7 is that most likely the shooter? Geeez.

Do you always get great lots of ammo? I don't. I don't think anyone does. My ammo varies quite a bit by lot. I rarely get a great lot but when I do it's my match only ammo. Lapua is great ammo but it's never perfect. Yes, misses can be caused by ammo and often are.

 

[oldrifleman]

Did someone say "ALL" misses were due to ammo, or was that implied?

In my case it's not the rifle, most likely not the shooter either although I'm not perfect and never implied that.
It seems some believe that there are zero great shooters and zero great rifles, and it's a fantasy that ammo cant be at fault. Sure I miss occasionally due to shooter error. I do know when I shook a bit. I also know when I fire a rock solid trigger pull and miss it can be the ammo.

When I see a rifle mounted to a full sled and the shooter is only touching the trigger and get a 7 is that most likely the shooter? Geeez.

Do you always get great lots of ammo? I don't. I don't think anyone does. My ammo varies quite a bit by lot. I rarely get a great lot but when I do it's my match only ammo. Lapua is great ammo but it's never perfect. Yes, misses can be caused by ammo and often are.

Just part of the game. You find whats best in that rifle and understand what it's going to do. If you can't find the ammo for that barrel, you change the barrel and try again. No ammo will ever be perfect, just the nature of the beast. It has been this way for as long as I have been shooting rimfires.

 

[GuideDog]

Just part of the game. You find whats best in that rifle and understand what it's going to do. If you can't find the ammo for that barrel, you change the barrel and try again. No ammo will ever be perfect, just the nature of the beast. It has been this way for as long as I have been shooting rimfires.

Hmm, change the barrel? Not sure that's a good option. No ammo is perfect is understood. The point is that the variability in lots seems to be getting larger. There was a time most if not all Lapua Midas + for example would shoot acceptably tight groups meaning 0.2 inch or smaller. Out of the last 3 lots (bricks of 500) I have 1 that's acceptable. The other 2 might as well be Center-X with more than occasional flyers that hit the 0.5 inch mark. Sure that may be acceptable to some shooters. I have seen the accuracy of rimfire ammo improve until maybe the past 6 months to a year. Now it's gone down along with availability too.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Wrt inconsistency in .22 ammo ("reprint;" some will recognize this from other posts):
I bought two cases of Center-X after lot-testing for my Vudoo five years ago. Over thousands of rounds, it established ES/SD values of around 30/9. Velocity rose and fell slightly in over-90 or under-45 temps. This ammo shot well in every rifle in which it was tried.

Last year, I dropped four 100-yard targets in one stage of a monthly gallery-style match I shoot. For context, that was more lost 100-yard targets in one string of fire than the TOTAL of misses in the previous year (same targets every time; it's a gallery-style match). I thought my scope had crapped out.

A subsequent check revealed that almost all cartridges in three boxes of ammo out of the 200 boxes (two cases) of that lot were 50fps slower than the other 197 boxes. ES/SD values the same - just slower.

It would be interesting to know why those three boxes were so slow. After that experience, I have fired five rounds out of each box of that lot before using the rest of the box in a match.
---------
One group don'meanNothin' -
A buddy of mine sent his gen-1 Vudoo to Lapua for testing in that same time period. His rifle printed a 10-round center-to-center* group of 0.4 inches at 100 meters - so he bought three cases of it. Midas+. I think it was selling for ~$1400 per case; I paid ~$1025 for my Center-X. Anyway - I asked my buddy for a copy of his entire test report. Yep, there was the super-duper 10-shot group - surrounded by the more expected 1-inch range groups.

Over the following seasons, he and I competed head-to-head in that little gallery match with identical rifles. The smallest 150-yard targets are at the ragged edge of what a top-tier rifle with top-tier ammo can reliably hit in ideal conditions. Who got the "win" on any given day came down to who lucked out with wind / wind calls. My point is simply that paying 40% more for the Midas+ with that unicorn group didn't get any more wins than my more mundane Center-X.
___
*Lapua tests show results edge-to-edge; I converted to c-to-c.
-----------

Edit: I bought five bricks of Lapua Long Range in February of this year. It shoots great. I bought two bricks of Standard+ a few weeks ago. It shoots great - that is, it shoots very well for $8-per-box ammo - too. I wish Lapua would lot test SKUs other than Center-X / Midas+ / X-Act but they don't at this point. There was something about Whidden's testing or pricing that turned me off when I checked on it.

At the end of the day... it's .22. Love it or leave it.

 

[Williwaw]

Normal variance.

 

[GuideDog]

Wrt inconsistency in .22 ammo ("reprint;" some will recognize this from other posts):
I bought two cases of Center-X after lot-testing for my Vudoo five years ago. Over thousands of rounds, it established ES/SD values of around 30/9. Velocity rose and fell slightly in over-90 or under-45 temps. This ammo shot well in every rifle in which it was tried.

Last year, I dropped four 100-yard targets in one stage of a monthly gallery-style match I shoot. For context, that was more lost 100-yard targets in one string of fire than the TOTAL of misses in the previous year (same targets every time; it's a gallery-style match). I thought my scope had crapped out.

A subsequent check revealed that almost all cartridges in three boxes of ammo out of the 200 boxes (two cases) of that lot were 50fps slower than the other 197 boxes. ES/SD values the same - just slower.

It would be interesting to know why those three boxes were so slow. After that experience, I have fired five rounds out of each box of that lot before using the rest of the box in a match.
---------
One group don'meanNothin' -
A buddy of mine sent his gen-1 Vudoo to Lapua for testing in that same time period. His rifle printed a 10-round center-to-center* group of 0.4 inches at 100 meters - so he bought three cases of it. Midas+. I think it was selling for ~$1400 per case; I paid ~$1025 for my Center-X. Anyway - I asked my buddy for a copy of his entire test report. Yep, there was the super-duper 10-shot group - surrounded by the more expected 1-inch range groups.

Over the following seasons, he and I competed head-to-head in that little gallery match with identical rifles. The smallest 150-yard targets are at the ragged edge of what a top-tier rifle with top-tier ammo can reliably hit in ideal conditions. Who got the "win" on any given day came down to who lucked out with wind / wind calls. My point is simply that paying 40% more for the Midas+ with that unicorn group didn't get any more wins than my more mundane Center-X.
___
*Lapua tests show results edge-to-edge; I converted to c-to-c.
-----------

Edit: I bought five bricks of Lapua Long Range in February of this year. It shoots great. I bought two bricks of Standard+ a few weeks ago. It shoots great - that is, it shoots very well for $8-per-box ammo - too. I wish Lapua would lot test SKUs other than Center-X / Midas+ / X-Act but they don't at this point. There was something about Whidden's testing or pricing that turned me off when I checked on it.

At the end of the day... it's .22. Love it or leave it.

I should not have compared Midas to Center-X. Center-X has had similar lot to lot variance here. I got more poor lots than good of that too. I just happened to purchase Midas recently. I have noticed very little difference between Midas and Center and if you gave me boxes of each with no label I don't think I could tell them apart. Throw X-Act in there too. Now they all shoot fairly good but I don't think ones a match winner over the others. They all seem to print about the same for me out of a Vudoo.

 

[rimfired]

I should not have compared Midas to Center-X. Center-X has had similar lot to lot variance here. I got more poor lots than good of that too. I just happened to purchase Midas recently. I have noticed very little difference between Midas and Center and if you gave me boxes of each with no label I don't think I could tell them apart. Throw X-Act in there too. Now they all shoot fairly good but I don't think ones a match winner over the others. They all seem to print about the same for me out of a Vudoo.

Center-X, Midas+, and X-ACT are all made with the same everything, depending on how the lot performs determines the box it goes in. Which is why lot testing is so important for rimfire performance, what your rifle likes/shoots best can be totally different what someone elses rifle (same manufacturer, etc). Using the highest quality doesn't guarantee any better performance out of your rifle, last year CX shot the best when I was at the Lapua test center, this year unfortunately Midas+ tested better than all lots of CX they had so I had to pay the premium.

 

[GuideDog]

Center-X, Midas+, and X-ACT are all made with the same everything, depending on how the lot performs determines the box it goes in. Which is why lot testing is so important for rimfire performance, what your rifle likes/shoots best can be totally different what someone elses rifle (same manufacturer, etc). Using the highest quality doesn't guarantee any better performance out of your rifle, last year CX shot the best when I was at the Lapua test center, this year unfortunately Midas+ tested better than all lots of CX they had so I had to pay the premium.

Sorry you had to pay the premium. All the above shoot similar in my Vudoo. All shoot very good. The difference is the amount of flyers. That's what been increasing lately across Center-X, Midas+ or X-Act. I just happened to get a lot of Midas+ with fewer flyers. They all shoot one hole groups with the exception of flyers. That's why I mentioned when I pull the trigger I can tell it's going to be a X shot, then poof a flyer. Sure I know too when it's me, moved a bit, shake or whatever. I thought the difference between Center, Midas, or X-Act is the screening. The magic Lapua performs to sort these by weight, size or the "secret" method. It just seems again lately a few more misfits fall in the lot.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Did someone say "ALL" misses were due to ammo, or was that implied?

In my case it's not the rifle, most likely not the shooter either although I'm not perfect and never implied that.
It seems some believe that there are zero great shooters and zero great rifles, and it's a fantasy that ammo cant be at fault. Sure I miss occasionally due to shooter error. I do know when I shook a bit. I also know when I fire a rock solid trigger pull and miss it can be the ammo.

When I see a rifle mounted to a full sled and the shooter is only touching the trigger and get a 7 is that most likely the shooter? Geeez.

Do you always get great lots of ammo? I don't. I don't think anyone does. My ammo varies quite a bit by lot. I rarely get a great lot but when I do it's my match only ammo. Lapua is great ammo but it's never perfect. Yes, misses can be caused by ammo and often are.

I will say this send or take your rifle to Lapua and test for a good lot of ammo then see if the quality has gone down.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Center-X, Midas+, and X-ACT are all made with the same everything, depending on how the lot performs determines the box it goes in. Which is why lot testing is so important for rimfire performance, what your rifle likes/shoots best can be totally different what someone elses rifle (same manufacturer, etc). Using the highest quality doesn't guarantee any better performance out of your rifle, last year CX shot the best when I was at the Lapua test center, this year unfortunately Midas+ tested better than all lots of CX they had so I had to pay the premium.

I suggest trying Pistol King it is the most under rated flavor from Lapua. I shot my best 250-21X and 7100 3 card agg on the ARA UL in our club's unsanctioned matches. I know of others who had great success with it.

Lee

 

[oldrifleman]

Hmm, change the barrel? Not sure that's a good option. No ammo is perfect is understood. The point is that the variability in lots seems to be getting larger. There was a time most if not all Lapua Midas + for example would shoot acceptably tight groups meaning 0.2 inch or smaller. Out of the last 3 lots (bricks of 500) I have 1 that's acceptable. The other 2 might as well be Center-X with more than occasional flyers that hit the 0.5 inch mark. Sure that may be acceptable to some shooters. I have seen the accuracy of rimfire ammo improve until maybe the past 6 months to a year. Now it's gone down along with availability too.

Not sure you got that changing the barrel was more of a sarcastic point but. I just have not seen it getting worse, except if you want Eley long range. I have picked up cases of Midas, center X and SLR in the last year and the SDs have been as good or better than my left over box’s from 3 and 6 years ago. But yeah maybe your standards have gone up, just can’t say.

 

[Mr.BR]

There is a sliver of truth to the claim

In general ammo is getting better but Rimfire ammo is very specific as in match grade ammo is not being made per see but rather selected out of the bulk .

Your Center-x ,Midas+ , X-Act are all same product just separated after manufacturing QC and lot testing into respective grades for example only 4% make it into X-act box

As rimfire ammo manufacturing at either Eley or Lapua has yet to dramatically increase while at the same time product portfolio of premium ammo grew substantially , we are dealing with more selection from same bulk product and production line. So you could say in some ways more product is being packaged as premium then it was years back. Hope things smooth out once new production capacity comes online.

As this is quite a standard process sometimes it falls into business optimisation for example when Managment at Eley made a MBO of the company in 2014 you could note a substantial drop in quality for couple of years, because stuff that would normaly end up in black box ended up in Red and pink box ended up in black etc. At present there is again a noted drop quality but for this time different reasons.

 

[LR1845]

Here's what I have noticed about 22LR ammo, I am guessing at the time frame here but am going to say about 10ish years ago our entire club was shooting SK Pistol Match, CZ's, Kidds, Vudoo's, savages, it did not matter what the SKPM was shot out of it would hammer. I'd say we went through 20-25 cases of the SKPM, I personally when through 3 cases.

ALL of this ammo no matter what rifle it was shot out of was around 1050ish to 1090ish rarely did a shot go over 1100 when checking velocity and rarely did we see ES's over 30ish, but then we did not have Garmins strapped to our guns 24/7. Lately I have struggled to find any ammo under 1100FPS or under 40-60ES's. Recently I found some SKPM and bought a brick(wish Ida bought a case)55 rounds over the Garmin was 1060-1095 and was the best shooting ammo I have had in a long time.

Now I am no expert on 22LR ammo but what I have noticed is that the faster(1100 and over)ammo is not as consistent and produces more flyers. I believe Kenny @EagleEyeShooting mentioned something about this in one of his posts and said it was more about lead hardness? Maybe he will chime in here. Also as @Hi-NV Shooter mentioned about Lapua Pistol King, I just ordered a brick to test hoping it will run under 1100FPS. Back when we were all shooting the SKPM we would just order cases and not worry about lot numbers because it always shot.

 

[GuideDog]

I will say this send or take your rifle to Lapua and test for a good lot of ammo then see if the quality has gone down.

Lee

This confirms the lot to lot variability if I have to have a barrel tested to match ammo. If the manufacturing was quality controlled to keep the lots the same none of this would be needed. I looked in to the cost, it's not worth it since in that hand picked lot there will still have enough variation to be called a flyer. Do you agree?

 

[Mr.BR]

This confirms the lot to lot variability if I have to have a barrel tested to match ammo. If the manufacturing was quality controlled to keep the lots the same none of this would be needed. Do you agree?

Of course there is lot to lot variability , center-x ,midas+ and X-act are just different lots from same production run. And within all these there are considerable variations from lot to lot. Has lot to do with cartridge design

For competitive shooting of premium ammo lot testing is a gold standard , i have tested all my rimfire for past 10 years first in Eley then at Lapua where at one point i was given a chance to even test SK LR ammo that is not ever tested in factory tunnels.

 

[GuideDog]

Here's what I have noticed about 22LR ammo, I am guessing at the time frame here but am going to say about 10ish years ago our entire club was shooting SK Pistol Match, CZ's, Kidds, Vudoo's, savages, it did not matter what the SKPM was shot out of it would hammer. I'd say we went through 20-25 cases of the SKPM, I personally when through 3 cases.

ALL of this ammo no matter what rifle it was shot out of was around 1050ish to 1090ish rarely did a shot go over 1100 when checking velocity and rarely did we see ES's over 30ish, but then we did not have Garmins strapped to our guns 24/7. Lately I have struggled to find any ammo under 1100FPS or under 40-60ES's. Recently I found some SKPM and bought a brick(wish Ida bought a case)55 rounds over the Garmin was 1060-1095 and was the best shooting ammo I have had in a long time.

Now I am no expert on 22LR ammo but what I have noticed is that the faster(1100 and over)ammo is not as consistent and produces more flyers. I believe Kenny @EagleEyeShooting mentioned something about this in one of his posts and said it was more about lead hardness? Maybe he will chime in here. Also as @Hi-NV Shooter mentioned about Lapua Pistol King, I just ordered a brick to test hoping it will run under 1100FPS. Back when we were all shooting the SKPM we would just order cases and not worry about lot numbers because it always shot.

The additional flyers is exactly my point. That's what some here were being very sarcastic about by saying we always blame the ammo and not the human. The ammo is not as consistent as you stated. Last match I looked at the clubs top shooters targets. BTW we all shoot different barrels, frames don't matter as much. I will mention one shooter uses a full length sled and uses Anschutz fired by only touching the trigger, one Vudoo, one 2500X. The means little if no user error. Upon scoring the top 3 all had 1 or 2 misses. None of us could blame anything but the ammo. No wind that day. All very contestants are consistent in placing in the top 3. I looked at their ammo. All 3 using Lapua, two with Center-X and one with Midas who was the winner. We discuss the differences we all see in the ammo. About half use chronographs. We all agree all flavors of Lapua are very similar. There's no true standout.

Of course there is lot to lot variability , center-x ,midas+ and X-act are just different lots from same production run.

For competitive shooting of premium ammo lot testing is a gold standard , i have tested all my rimfire for past 10 years first in Eley then at Lapua where at one point i was given a chance to even test SK LR ammo that is not ever tested in factory tunnels.

So you have your ammo hand picked all the time and pay the premium? Should the manufacturing be constant enough that the same brand provide similar results? Seems we are providing an opportunity for unnecessary additional testing just to get "matched" ammo. Ok so they cherry pick lots for you, right? There's no effort to provide better quality ammo, just a hand picked lot.

 

[reelserious]

You can learn a lot about your ammo by shooting groups from the bench with chrono running for each shot You can see the variations in ammo and the results pretty clearly

 

[GuideDog]

You can learn a lot about your ammo by shooting groups from the bench with chrono running for each shot You can see the variations in ammo and the results pretty clearly

I totally agree that a chrono would quantify what my eyes see and tell me. That would leave no doubt and provide a bit more data.

 

[mark5pt56]

You can learn a lot about your ammo by shooting groups from the bench with chrono running for each shot You can see the variations in ammo and the results pretty clearly

The chrono is a great tool for this, especially with a .22.
It really helped when finding the tuner setting.

 

[Mr.BR]

So you have your ammo hand picked all the time and pay the premium? Should the manufacturing be constant enough that the same brand provide similar results? Seems we are providing an opportunity for unnecessary additional testing just to get "matched" ammo. Ok so they cherry pick lots for you, right? There's no effort to provide better quality ammo, just a hand picked lot.

There is a lot of effort to provide match ammo , its basically what separates likes of CCI from Lapua
Lot testing inhouse is done trough 5-6barrels , you can imagine those barrels are not same as what you might have in your barrel.

Lot testing for customer is what 50$ ? so hardly a huge expense. When i was using Eley i gave a gun to my dealer who took it to one of the test centers and it cost nothing . I just had to buy 5000rds of Tenex ,with Lapua i had a different situation as got to do lot testing for free ,but also drove to Schonebeck factory was given a tour and typicaly took couple of folks so we test 8-10rifles at a time.

Difference with Lapua you can test all of Lapua rimfire products and on an occasion or two i got the head honcho to do me a favor and rolled in lots of SK LRM ammo to test as well. Was quite interesting to so what gives between SK and Lapua


Real hand picked ammo was back in a day Russian Olymp-R made in 80's, basicaly QC was bunch of folk hand measuring everything possible and priming was done by hand . It was as close as you get to rimfire perfection. Old lots were hounded like they were platinum. Funny how far the QC goes , inside a box there is for example a tag ''female packer #3''
Some aspect of that design should be copied but many features can't due to legislative limitations

Here you have a dude shooting 30year old Soviet Era ammo to win an Olympic gold in 2012 London and set a new world record with an old Anschutz .



Bullet that can seal the barrel very well due to deep expansion cut, primer that is perfectly positioned ,specific was lube etc , Federal copied the dimple ,SK added the bullet cut,,eley stole the ammo box but as long as business is going so well no new development will be implemented and Olyimp-R will stay unmatched as pinacle of .22LR amunition.

 

[GuideDog]

The chrono is a great tool for this, especially with a .22.
It really helped when finding the tuner setting.

I agree a chrono is an awesome tool. But how did it help setting a tuner? You can see the impacts and please correct me if wrong, the tuner dampens barrel vibrations. Does that influence velocity changes also? I don't see data that can be used from the velocity to set the tuner. It may show the velocity that produced a tighter group.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I agree a chrono is an awesome tool. But how did it help setting a tuner? You can see the impacts and please correct me if wrong, the tuner dampens barrel vibrations. Does that influence velocity changes also? I don't see data that can be used from the velocity to set the tuner. It may show the velocity that produced a tighter group.

A tuner is used to time the bullet's exit from the barrel. by extending the weight forward of the crown you can slow or speed up the barrel's movement out to slow down in to speed up and thus alter the bullet's exit from the barrel. you want the bullet to exit at the top of the barrel's movement.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

This confirms the lot to lot variability if I have to have a barrel tested to match ammo. If the manufacturing was quality controlled to keep the lots the same none of this would be needed. I looked in to the cost, it's not worth it since in that hand picked lot there will still have enough variation to be called a flyer. Do you agree?. if you are not willing to look for or test ammo to find the best for your rifle then it is not a quality issue. it is your unwillingness to

This confirms the lot to lot variability if I have to have a barrel tested to match ammo. If the manufacturing was quality controlled to keep the lots the same none of this would be needed. I looked in to the cost, it's not worth it since in that hand picked lot there will still have enough variation to be called a flyer. Do you agree?

If you are not willing to test for the best ammo it is not a quality issue it is your unwillingness to search. just like every barrel will not shoot the same, ammo is the same. how good it shoots depends on your set up. what doesn't shoot for you will shoot for someone else.

Lee

 

[DownhillFromHere]

So you have your ammo hand picked all the time and pay the premium? Should the manufacturing be constant enough that the same brand provide similar results? Seems we are providing an opportunity for unnecessary additional testing just to get "matched" ammo. Ok so they cherry pick lots for you, right? There's no effort to provide better quality ammo, just a hand picked lot.

One more response to this and I'm out. OP has no clue. He seems to think "constant manufacturing" could produce the same consistency lot after lot, day in day out ad nauseam.

This perfect ammo would be manufactured with absolutely perfect powder, priming compound and bullets made from perfectly consistent lead placed by a perfect zero-tolerance process into perfect brass.

And that perfection happens lot after lot of each and every component, day after day, year after year and yields ammo with near-zero SD that shoots half-inch 10-shot 400-yard groups in a gale.

In which barrel? O right, we have absolutely perfect barrels that ARE ALL EXACTLY THE SAME no matter who makes it...
-----
Of course this is silly. If I want to chase perfect ammo, I can obsess without end over my centerfire handloads. I can buy absolutely the best brass and bullets and primers and powders and then tinker endlessly with every combination possible to see which one is best. And I find the PERFECT load. And it's PERFECT right up until I run out of one component or the other or the barrel wears and...

And OP's circle repeats... if manufacturing were better then we wouldn't have so much variation...

Pure fantasy.

Maybe this statement from OP explains a lot:

"Seems we are providing an opportunity for unnecessary additional testing just to get "matched" ammo."​

It's a conspiracy, man.

I'm out.

 

[Mr.BR]

Just for fun imagine how much more precision in terms of dosing and primer application is required in .22LR when you have a powder charge of cca 1grain vs any centerfire ammo

 

[Williwaw]

The usual couple options exist here ... have our bias/opinion confirmed or learn something. Seldom can we achieve both.

 

[mark5pt56]

I agree a chrono is an awesome tool. But how did it help setting a tuner? You can see the impacts and please correct me if wrong, the tuner dampens barrel vibrations. Does that influence velocity changes also? I don't see data that can be used from the velocity to set the tuner. It may show the velocity that produced a tighter group.

If I had an outlier velocity wise, it showed on the target. That's why I would've fired a third round to confirm. For one instance, look at the bottom left, shot 2 was high velocity wise and hit high, 1 and 3 close in velocity and impact. From my point of view it makes sense, not saying I'm right either.
Then I've seen all brands that you get the occasional unexplained flyer(occasional relative to cost frequency) Out of one brick of CX-I had one that velocity was in check but it freaking flew--over the nest!

 

[GuideDog]

There is a lot of effort to provide match ammo , its basically what separates likes of CCI from Lapua
Lot testing inhouse is done trough 5-6barrels , you can imagine those barrels are not same as what you might have in your barrel.

Lot testing for customer is what 50$ ? so hardly a huge expense. When i was using Eley i gave a gun to my dealer who took it to one of the test centers and it cost nothing . I just had to buy 5000rds of Tenex ,with Lapua i had a different situation as got to do lot testing for free ,but also drove to Schonebeck factory was given a tour and typicaly took couple of folks so we test 8-10rifles at a time.

Difference with Lapua you can test all of Lapua rimfire products and on an occasion or two i got the head honcho to do me a favor and rolled in lots of SK LRM ammo to test as well. Was quite interesting to so what gives between SK and Lapua


Real hand picked ammo was back in a day Russian Olymp-R made in 80's, basicaly QC was bunch of folk hand measuring everything possible and priming was done by hand . It was as close as you get to rimfire perfection. Old lots were hounded like they were platinum. Funny how far the QC goes , inside a box there is for example a tag ''female packer #3''
Some aspect of that design should be copied but many features can't due to legislative limitations

Here you have a dude shooting 30year old Soviet Era ammo to win an Olympic gold in 2012 London and set a new world record with an old Anschutz .



Bullet that can seal the barrel very well due to deep expansion cut, primer that is perfectly positioned ,specific was lube etc , Federal copied the dimple ,SK added the bullet cut,,eley stole the ammo box but as long as business is going so well no new development will be implemented and Olyimp-R will stay unmatched as pinacle of .22LR amunition.
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[GuideDog]

Post #32 "Lot testing for customer is what 50$ ? so hardly a huge expense. When i was using Eley i gave a gun to my dealer who took it to one of the test centers and it cost nothing . I just had to buy 5000rds of Tenex ,with Lapua"

So 5000 rounds is free testing? Free would be you select how many rounds to purchase. Not everyone has thousand or more dollars. They simply bundle the testing cost into the profit from the huge ammo purchase. Sure it's great to have 5000 rounds on hand, but in that lot tell me honestly how many flyers you get? Sure 22 rimfire is not perfect but why accept that it cant be improved perhaps by better quality control?

 

[GuideDog]

A tuner is used to time the bullet's exit from the barrel. by extending the weight forward of the crown you can slow or speed up the barrel's movement out to slow down in to speed up and thus alter the bullet's exit from the barrel. you want the bullet to exit at the top of the barrel's movement.

Lee

Hmm, so if I'm on a ship in the ocean and my barrel is moving up and down due to the frequency of the waves moving the boat each shot would have a different velocity due to the barrel moving up and down?

All barrels have what's called a natural resonant frequency. That means their vibrations are caused by firing the projectile. Their vibrations are due to physical properties, weight, length, thickness, etc. Vibrations are similar to a guitar string. What the tuner does is moves the resonate mode to a different spot to dampen the natural resonant frequency. There is no difference in speed that the bullet exits if it's at the top, middle, or bottom of the node. The tuner dampens the movement to a minimum. This dampening and tuning is only repeatable if the ammo is repeatable. That's why you may have to tune every lot of ammo. Maybe every box.

How many here used a tuner and then stopped because it was non value added. Meaning is was not worth tuning almost every box of ammo?

Where did you acquire this theory?

 

[GuideDog]

One more response to this and I'm out. OP has no clue. He seems to think "constant manufacturing" could produce the same consistency lot after lot, day in day out ad nauseam.

This perfect ammo would be manufactured with absolutely perfect powder, priming compound and bullets made from perfectly consistent lead placed by a perfect zero-tolerance process into perfect brass.

And that perfection happens lot after lot of each and every component, day after day, year after year and yields ammo with near-zero SD that shoots half-inch 10-shot 400-yard groups in a gale.

In which barrel? O right, we have absolutely perfect barrels that ARE ALL EXACTLY THE SAME no matter who makes it...
-----
Of course this is silly. If I want to chase perfect ammo, I can obsess without end over my centerfire handloads. I can buy absolutely the best brass and bullets and primers and powders and then tinker endlessly with every combination possible to see which one is best. And I find the PERFECT load. And it's PERFECT right up until I run out of one component or the other or the barrel wears and...

And OP's circle repeats... if manufacturing were better then we wouldn't have so much variation...

Pure fantasy.

Maybe this statement from OP explains a lot:

"Seems we are providing an opportunity for unnecessary additional testing just to get "matched" ammo."​

It's a conspiracy, man.

I'm out.

Yes, better manufacturing can produce more consistency. Ammo is sorted into the Lapua flavors, X-Act, Midas, Center-X correct? It all comes from the same machines, same mixtures of primer, powder, lead, correct?

Yes this can be improved. I never stated it can be PERFECT as you try to imply. That was misinterpreted, I must add badly.
Then you went off on a tangent to centerfire which has no place in this discussion simply to further twist.

My barrel BTW shoots most brands very good, not perfect. It loves Lapua. Why? That's what it's chambered and headspaced for. I also happens to have awesome manufacturing that produced a near perfect barrel. It's not the barrel that adds to inconstancy UNLESS it's a bad barrel and there are differences in chambers and barrels. That's exactly why some shoot Lapua or Eley for example better. The difference in chambers and headspace determine what ammo it likes.

There's no conspiracy in stating ammo consistency could be better or barrel testing would not be needed if the mfg consistency improved.

Those are facts.

Stating I have no clue is what's silly, Or it pure fantasy manufacturing can't improve. I'm a manufacturing and mechanical engineer.
What's your expertise in?

I think we are glad "you are out".

 

[GuideDog]

Just for fun imagine how much more precision in terms of dosing and primer application is required in .22LR when you have a powder charge of cca 1grain vs any centerfire ammo

Why is ammo sorted into Center-x or Midas? Could it be variability that can be easily measured?

 

[BowChamp]

I suggest trying Pistol King it is the most under rated flavor from Lapua. I shot my best 250-21X and 7100 3 card agg on the ARA UL in our club's unsanctioned matches. I know of others who had great success with it.

Lee

Shhhhhh!!! LOL!!!

 

[GuideDog]

Shhhhhh!!! LOL!!!

Thanks for the info. I'm not have luck with Center-X or Midas. Midas has been a bit better on constancy. I'll have to try pistol king.
A250-21X is awesome. Our match record is 20X. I have reached 17X so I know how difficult that is, but with the correct setup I also must say it's achievable as shown. Just need great ammo also with great gear, and always mostly the operator. I try not to use the more familiar term for operator.

What rig are you using?

 

[oldrifleman]

Thanks for the info. I'm not have luck with Center-X or Midas. Midas has been a bit better on constancy. I'll have to try pistol king.
A250-21X is awesome. Our match record is 20X. I have reached 17X so I know how difficult that is, but with the correct setup I also must say it's achievable as shown. Just need great ammo also with great gear, and always mostly the operator. I try not to use the more familiar term for operator.

What rig are you using?

Please, for love of God, take your Meds. You are starting to go manic. Read what people who have lived the dream that is “precision” Rimfire.

 

[GuideDog]

Please, for love of God, take your Meds. You are starting to go manic. Read what people who have lived the dream that is “precision” Rimfire.

LOL thanks for your advice, please do the same.

 

[GuideDog]

Shhhhhh!!! LOL!!!

I just ordered a brick of Pistol King. I hope it shoot awesome!

 

[BowChamp]

Thanks for the info. I'm not have luck with Center-X or Midas. Midas has been a bit better on constancy. I'll have to try pistol king.
A250-21X is awesome. Our match record is 20X. I have reached 17X so I know how difficult that is, but with the correct setup I also must say it's achievable as shown. Just need great ammo also with great gear, and always mostly the operator. I try not to use the more familiar term for operator.

What rig are you using?

I'm shooting a Vudoo V22S., ARA Unlimited at 50yds. is my game. I'm not a world beater...just having fun.

I think missed calls on condition change is what affects my shooting the most.

I just ordered a brick of Pistol King. I hope it shoot awesome!

Won't hurt anything to give it a try. Let us know how it shoots for you.

Just so you know....I don't use a chronograph so I have no idea what kind of numbers to expect.