But lash is a pretty fair shooter, eh? In the hands of others, does it still shoot well? I would guess yes, but not as tight/consistent on target. From the shooter's fundamentals.
Why are AR15s so difficult to shoot for the average shooter?
- Thread starter Roslyn
- Start date
Sometimes I’m a fair shooter. Then I did add an SSA trigger as a token to its ability. But, as was said just recently in this thread, I’m glad that guys do have their basic ARs, even if they can only hit minute of pie plate at 100 yards.
Fundamentals, I never had a coach with the exception of basic military training and qualifications.
I did do some (low level sort of) security details guarding special weapons , aircraft perimeters yada yada. My primary mos was aircraft mechanic.
That didn't stop me from being in the right place at the wrong time occasionally. Lol
Anyway I was always a decent shot, competitive in clays but nothing else. Minute of deer and not much else.
I joined the hide and they lit a fire in my ass. So much expertise here it's incredible.
So my shooting got better my reloading got better a bit at a time.
The one thing that will be a benchmark is getting an ar to shoot under 1 moa, 3/4, 1/3 .
It can be done with tools less expensive than the best. Top shelf is not a necessity it's a luxury.
I still use sorted range brass.
My favorite trigger is a 2 stage from a Brownells completion kit.
It was slicked up with a stone and a lighter replacement spring used.
It all comes together fast once the first load takes shape.
Now I look forward to stretching out.
I did do some (low level sort of) security details guarding special weapons , aircraft perimeters yada yada. My primary mos was aircraft mechanic.
That didn't stop me from being in the right place at the wrong time occasionally. Lol
Anyway I was always a decent shot, competitive in clays but nothing else. Minute of deer and not much else.
I joined the hide and they lit a fire in my ass. So much expertise here it's incredible.
So my shooting got better my reloading got better a bit at a time.
The one thing that will be a benchmark is getting an ar to shoot under 1 moa, 3/4, 1/3 .
It can be done with tools less expensive than the best. Top shelf is not a necessity it's a luxury.
I still use sorted range brass.
My favorite trigger is a 2 stage from a Brownells completion kit.
It was slicked up with a stone and a lighter replacement spring used.
It all comes together fast once the first load takes shape.
Now I look forward to stretching out.
Yeah fundamentals. Spend some time at a range and you’ll see lots of shooters with terrible fundamentals shoot a bolt gun pretty well. Hell, RO a PRS match and you’ll see 1/2 of the shooters finger the trigger like it’s their date on prom night. A heavy-ass bolt gun in a mouse fart cartridge makes it pretty not hard. Try that with a 6 lb semi auto and you’re in for a day of frustration.
EVERY shooter shoots for accuracy. The definition of what is acceptable accuracy is, however, variable. One may find perfectly acceptable accuracy to be getting 5 hits on an IPSC at 25 yards in under 2 seconds from a low ready position. This shooter may not care about small groups or even A zone hits - just hits. Another keeps chasing the elusive and fabled "one hole" group. at distance, For the record, I don't count those who get jollies at the range doing mag dump after mag dump while not really even aiming at a target as shooters.
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Okay fair distinction.
1. The point remains, not all shooters seek the same level of accuracy.
2. This thread reeks of some silly "we are better than them" bullshit.
There’s lots of “shooters” that just want to hear the gun go bang and, maybe, see a target move or a hole appear somewhere on a piece of paper. Judging all shooters based upon what you see at a public range is like judging nascar drivers based solely upon what you see on your morning commute.
A lot of good shooters don’t shoot at public ranges.
The human factor (follow through, NPOA, etc.) becomes more important because of the design of the system. The development cycle for the rifle was to create the lightest weight reliable (safe) bullet hose possible with accuracy that is acceptable for infantrymen. What most people on this site are doing, is asking for a lightweight bullet hose to do precision rifle things.
Every adaptation, fancy upper, new barrel mounting system, handguard, etc. has been a series of bandaids to cover up the root problem. The AR system is not rigid where it counts. All forces from barricade resting, bipod loading, etc. result back directly where the barrel is mounted into a thin-walled piece of aluminum tubing. The barrel is clearance-fit into said thin wall aluminum tubing, and how tight/rigid it is held in place is based off of torque on a steel nut over aluminum threads. Insult to injury is the lock time of a large swinging hammer, parts that have to "float" with clearance for semi-auto function, etc. The gas system is a flimsy little tube mounted to a barrel that receives a significant vertical thrust when gas escapes through the gas port... The whole thing is less rigid, more clearanced, and exposed to a series of dramatic forces that a bolt action never sees. There are thermo-fit uppers, thick-wall uppers, adjustable gas blocks, faster lock time hammers, etc. All are bandaids and while they help, they do not completely bridge the gap to bolt-gun land.
Contrast this to a bolt action where you have a thicker receiver, made of a material with 3x the modulus of elasticity, with a barrel threaded directly into the receiver, torqued to a similar or higher value, mounted in a stock/chassis that creates a layer of isolation from the forces applied to the stock/bipod/fore end, and with a striker assembly that has much reduce lock time, trigger pull weight, etc.
My experience a couple years ago (2nd place bullet for the season in PRS gas gun) is that if you do everything almost perfect and test it to death, you can get 3/4-1MOA for 30 shot strings, but there's a laundry list of components, settings, etc.. that each one individually has the capacity to take your raw system dispersion from 3/4-1 MOA and make it 1.5-3 MOA. That's just the system, no shooter error. Now add shooter error, position, follow through, etc.. and it gets much uglier in a hurry than what you'll see with a bolt gun. Things as small as bipod vs. bag for a rest produce .1-.4 mil vertical shifts. Uneven bipod footing produces horizontal shifts proportional to applied loading (as much as .8-1.0 mil).
1. The system is flimsy and more subject to giving larger dispersion by default
2. The system being flimsy and having a longer lock time is MUCH more subject to getting wild with poor fundamentals and "forcing" shots.
Shooting gas gun at a level that I was in the running for top gas gun for the season I'd place 50-80th place in a typical PRS match. When I shoot a bolt gun and keep my shit together I'm a top 25 shooter most of the time, often enough top 10. You can tell me I suck at shooting but I've done enough testing to confidently say gas guns don't have the physical dispersion capacity that bolt guns do. They are not the same from the start, and poor fundamentals will only exacerbate the problem.
Every adaptation, fancy upper, new barrel mounting system, handguard, etc. has been a series of bandaids to cover up the root problem. The AR system is not rigid where it counts. All forces from barricade resting, bipod loading, etc. result back directly where the barrel is mounted into a thin-walled piece of aluminum tubing. The barrel is clearance-fit into said thin wall aluminum tubing, and how tight/rigid it is held in place is based off of torque on a steel nut over aluminum threads. Insult to injury is the lock time of a large swinging hammer, parts that have to "float" with clearance for semi-auto function, etc. The gas system is a flimsy little tube mounted to a barrel that receives a significant vertical thrust when gas escapes through the gas port... The whole thing is less rigid, more clearanced, and exposed to a series of dramatic forces that a bolt action never sees. There are thermo-fit uppers, thick-wall uppers, adjustable gas blocks, faster lock time hammers, etc. All are bandaids and while they help, they do not completely bridge the gap to bolt-gun land.
Contrast this to a bolt action where you have a thicker receiver, made of a material with 3x the modulus of elasticity, with a barrel threaded directly into the receiver, torqued to a similar or higher value, mounted in a stock/chassis that creates a layer of isolation from the forces applied to the stock/bipod/fore end, and with a striker assembly that has much reduce lock time, trigger pull weight, etc.
My experience a couple years ago (2nd place bullet for the season in PRS gas gun) is that if you do everything almost perfect and test it to death, you can get 3/4-1MOA for 30 shot strings, but there's a laundry list of components, settings, etc.. that each one individually has the capacity to take your raw system dispersion from 3/4-1 MOA and make it 1.5-3 MOA. That's just the system, no shooter error. Now add shooter error, position, follow through, etc.. and it gets much uglier in a hurry than what you'll see with a bolt gun. Things as small as bipod vs. bag for a rest produce .1-.4 mil vertical shifts. Uneven bipod footing produces horizontal shifts proportional to applied loading (as much as .8-1.0 mil).
1. The system is flimsy and more subject to giving larger dispersion by default
2. The system being flimsy and having a longer lock time is MUCH more subject to getting wild with poor fundamentals and "forcing" shots.
Shooting gas gun at a level that I was in the running for top gas gun for the season I'd place 50-80th place in a typical PRS match. When I shoot a bolt gun and keep my shit together I'm a top 25 shooter most of the time, often enough top 10. You can tell me I suck at shooting but I've done enough testing to confidently say gas guns don't have the physical dispersion capacity that bolt guns do. They are not the same from the start, and poor fundamentals will only exacerbate the problem.
So the geisselles receiver is a proprietary monstrosity?
Isn't that special.
Just what we need
Isn't that special.
Just what we need
Not no, hell no.
Proprietary bullshit.
I'm not much of a fanboy of any brand with proprietary products gouging you to buy more proprietary bull shit to get it to work.
I have plenty of Magpul products.
None of them required me to buy more items to work.
I have a 6mm arc and it fits and swaps with mill spec, I built it.
I can swap parts and buy from multiple providers.
It would be as stupid as buying a new scope that only fits one companies proprietary mount on their brand of firearm.
When does the hose shit stop
.Trying to be like the asshats at Microsoft.
I think ammo is a very big variable…
A .75” group vs 4” group through the same rifle on the same day.
I grabbed 6 different kinds of ammo and went to the range to see if I could decipher anything about what my ARs liked. I shot it all through a poverty pony lower and a budget PSA Nitride 16” upper, 1/7 twist, with a 1-8 Vortex LPVO. Basic as it could get, but used a Geissele trigger group because I like them. I think this setup pretty much mirrors what all of us “poors” go out shooting with.
All shot at matching small round orange targets at 100 yds.
A little breezy of a day, but not windy.
Just looking for a trend to know what kind of ammo to stock up on.
I shot 5 sets of 5 round groups each for each ammo type that I brought.
Shoot 5 rounds, swap mags - next ammo and target. Get through all types, then start over.
Since I am not God’s gift to the shooting world, here’s the results for the best group of 5 - and the worst group of 5 rounds for each ammo type. I know how inconsistent I can be, but can spot which ammo to stock up on. The other 3 groups of each would fall somewhere between the two.
The results:
TulAmmo 55gr
Best: 3.1 moa
Worst: 3.7 moa
Winchester 55gr
Best: 1.6 moa
Worst: 2.1 moa
IMI Green Tip 62gr
Best: 3.3 moa
Worst: 4.4 moa
IMI RazorCore 77gr
Best: .85 moa
Worst: 1.2 moa
Hornady SuPerformance 75gr
Best: 1.6 moa
Worst: 2.0 moa
Fiocchi Vmax 50gr
Best: .75 moa
Worst: 1.4 moa
Your results may vary, but I need to do it again at 200 yds.
I suspect the Vmax would open up.
A .75” group vs 4” group through the same rifle on the same day.
I grabbed 6 different kinds of ammo and went to the range to see if I could decipher anything about what my ARs liked. I shot it all through a poverty pony lower and a budget PSA Nitride 16” upper, 1/7 twist, with a 1-8 Vortex LPVO. Basic as it could get, but used a Geissele trigger group because I like them. I think this setup pretty much mirrors what all of us “poors” go out shooting with.
All shot at matching small round orange targets at 100 yds.
A little breezy of a day, but not windy.
Just looking for a trend to know what kind of ammo to stock up on.
I shot 5 sets of 5 round groups each for each ammo type that I brought.
Shoot 5 rounds, swap mags - next ammo and target. Get through all types, then start over.
Since I am not God’s gift to the shooting world, here’s the results for the best group of 5 - and the worst group of 5 rounds for each ammo type. I know how inconsistent I can be, but can spot which ammo to stock up on. The other 3 groups of each would fall somewhere between the two.
The results:
TulAmmo 55gr
Best: 3.1 moa
Worst: 3.7 moa
Winchester 55gr
Best: 1.6 moa
Worst: 2.1 moa
IMI Green Tip 62gr
Best: 3.3 moa
Worst: 4.4 moa
IMI RazorCore 77gr
Best: .85 moa
Worst: 1.2 moa
Hornady SuPerformance 75gr
Best: 1.6 moa
Worst: 2.0 moa
Fiocchi Vmax 50gr
Best: .75 moa
Worst: 1.4 moa
Your results may vary, but I need to do it again at 200 yds.
I suspect the Vmax would open up.
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This is why I like to shoot gas guns long range. Not like I've mastered the bolt action but with an AR you need to do everything just right. They can be very impressive with enough practice.
Razorcore is the shiznit. Too bad it’s unobtanium now.
Why would you not just pick a bullet you want and reload for it?
Your barrel will probably shoot any of them with load development.
And why would you break open another box to shoot 5 more? Instead of 5x4 groups, that's odd.
You could just get a tuner and dial in shitty factory ammo and be done with it.
6 different factory loads x 2 boxes to do 5 groups each and you could have bought a tuner dude.
What exactly was the point?
This wasn’t a “single rifle” kind of test. I have a “tribe” of shooters at my house… and they like to shoot. I’m not reloading for all of them. So I simply buy ammo in bulk. Especially 5.56. I don’t like it well enough to reload for it anyway.
And break open another box?
I bring ammo cans of already loaded mags.
Yes and I have a dillon and reload for my crew.
I don't like shitty results from factory crap.
Best shitty factory crap for the money is PMC in case you haven't tried it.
Enjoy your shitty pumpkin blasters.
Life is too short for poor groups.
I don't like shitty results from factory crap.
Best shitty factory crap for the money is PMC in case you haven't tried it.
Enjoy your shitty pumpkin blasters.
Life is too short for poor groups.
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I think ammo is a very big variable…
A .75” group vs 4” group through the same rifle on the same day.
You own a rifle that shoots 4 inch groups and kept it?
A .75” group vs 4” group through the same rifle on the same day.
You own a rifle that shoots 4 inch groups and kept it?
Sounds like the experience of those who competed with pro level M14/M1A rifles.
I am happy for you that you are willing to reload 5.56 for your family.
And yes, I’ve got a Dillon that I use to reload with too.
5.56 needed in bulk is not worth my time spent at the bench reloading.
I’m not sure why results that show there is a difference in performance between types of ammo has you sounding vaccinated. And yes, the rifle that shoots a .75 moa group also shoots a 4 moa with different ammo.
IF you are finished throwing down insults about my shitty little groups and my shitty little pumpkin blaster…
Do you agree or disagree that ammo is one of the variables between groups?
Ok ok @MadDuner
I publicly apologize for insulting you .
I kind of envisioned more of a lambasting and defense argument of your position.
I'm retired and should have all the reloading time in the world, but that's not how it pans out.
I have two sons two grandkids wife and daughter in law.
Son is busted up again, and grandkids have constraints.
My wife regularly shoots more ammo than I have time to.
I load them as much as I can of the good stuff and at the moment behind. I do some brass prep / prime off press while watching TV with my wife.
My position on reloading is I have a dillon and can crank out 223 sub moa pumpkin blasters (short range) with H335 some bob's bulk bullets (inexpensive) and sorted range pickup brass.
So I do, and promote reloading for economics of more accurate rounds than you can buy in most cases. I find it doesn't have to be perfect to beat factory ammo.
You should at least get a 55 gallon drum and save all that first fired brass for when you retire.
Lol
Edit: to add the PMC 55g ammo held 1 - 1 3/4 moa across 5 different ar's. We plowed a lot of pumpkins with it.
I publicly apologize for insulting you .
I kind of envisioned more of a lambasting and defense argument of your position.
I'm retired and should have all the reloading time in the world, but that's not how it pans out.
I have two sons two grandkids wife and daughter in law.
Son is busted up again, and grandkids have constraints.
My wife regularly shoots more ammo than I have time to.
I load them as much as I can of the good stuff and at the moment behind. I do some brass prep / prime off press while watching TV with my wife.
My position on reloading is I have a dillon and can crank out 223 sub moa pumpkin blasters (short range) with H335 some bob's bulk bullets (inexpensive) and sorted range pickup brass.
So I do, and promote reloading for economics of more accurate rounds than you can buy in most cases. I find it doesn't have to be perfect to beat factory ammo.
You should at least get a 55 gallon drum and save all that first fired brass for when you retire.
Lol
Edit: to add the PMC 55g ammo held 1 - 1 3/4 moa across 5 different ar's. We plowed a lot of pumpkins with it.
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Thank you sir.
I do in fact save all my brass for reloading.
I am also just right around the corner from retirement..... as in most likely the next "bad" day away.
Remember when Ted Nugent was into 44 mag then had a literal semi truck load of that factory ammo drop shipped! Plenty of people can afford to do similar and don't need sub moa groups as their standard for precision so no condemnation there.
But the only ammo I don't reload for is rimfire and airgun/pellets or slugs. Heck I even swage some of my slugs. I don't want to pay the extra money for factory ammo, and yeah I prefer higher precision reloads, plus I'm retired and have time.
My primary AR thing to do is shoot long range so high BC boat tails reign supreme and I'll diss the 1/2" vertical a flat base might offer to have less wind drift at distance. Both of those attributes can come together well enough.
OT but have any manufacturers made a substantially more robust modern clean sheet non AR semi auto yet? One that can almost rival a bolt gun??
But the only ammo I don't reload for is rimfire and airgun/pellets or slugs. Heck I even swage some of my slugs. I don't want to pay the extra money for factory ammo, and yeah I prefer higher precision reloads, plus I'm retired and have time.
My primary AR thing to do is shoot long range so high BC boat tails reign supreme and I'll diss the 1/2" vertical a flat base might offer to have less wind drift at distance. Both of those attributes can come together well enough.
OT but have any manufacturers made a substantially more robust modern clean sheet non AR semi auto yet? One that can almost rival a bolt gun??
This! I think I’ve already stated it in this same thread but one of the first things I do when getting a new ghetto blaster is get a variety of ammo from a variety of different manufacturers in a variety of weights. Most barrels are somewhat picky or will shoot certain things better than others. It’s just how it is.
Certain twists usually prefer a certain weight range. It all makes a difference and as MadDuner pointed out, you can get wildly different results out of the same blaster. Find what it likes and shoot that.
For me, most of my 1-7 twist AR barrels love razorcore and when I say love I mean some of the best groups I’ve ever seen out of an AR were achieved with this stuff. And like MadDuner, at a certain point, reloading isn’t worth my time. It’s not inherently cheaper, better? Maybe. In my case, I get such good groups with Razorcore that it makes zero sense to roll my own. I’m not going to reload and get better results and even if I do, it’s splitting hairs difference and really makes no sense to get that deep in the weeds on a weapon system that I know I’ll never engage or use most likely past 300-500yds, max. In most cases 200yds is a stretch and frankly I just don’t care or need tiny little groups at that distance. As long as I’m getting hits on a man sized target with speed, accuracy and consistency, then that’s all I care about. I’m not shooting my AR 700+ yds. If I’m shooting that far with an AR then something is horribly wrong. At those distances I’m not picking up an AR at all. Far better tools for the job for those engagements.
A lot of people don't realize it is "cheap stack it deep" time again. Also the PSA 75-77gr shoots really well for 60cents a pop.
So how many store box ammo guys Chrono the loads?
It's on the box
It's on the box
The stuff I had shot like Hornady match. I’ve got some more of it in 75gr haven’t tried it though.
Hornady Frontier 68gr are getting to be affordable too. Like I said it's a good time to buy I already grabbed a bunch of 9mm at 20cents a round and some igman 223/308.
My chrono numbers usually show higher than the advertised numbers on the box - because I am generally shooting in high and hot conditions.So how many store box ammo guys Chrono the loads?
It's on the box
