Gunsmithing WARNING DON'T TRUST CARBON SIX

[flogxal]

Honestly I never trust stated lead times, even if they're "promised" in a conversation with an employee. I got some good advice from a guy who used to be a professional/sponsored shooter: "Take any lead time someone tells you and triple it. You'll never be disappointed that way."

I hope no one takes that as a dig at gunsmiths or barrel mfgs. I know there are a lot of good people in the industry working long hours and trying their best to keep the backlog as short as possible. Just...shit happens for them just like it does for the rest of us. Tooling breaks, they get sick, their kids get sick, the dog eats a golf ball and has to go to the vet, or whatever.

Inevitably when you hire a craftsman (as opposed to a businessman) you are hiring an individual with individual talents worthy of your $$. This means they behave more like an artist, than like a businessman, because of their individuality vs pure-business-all-business approach. It may irritate the impatient, but this individuality and the quirks it carries on timing of projects, it really is what you pay for and why you go to the small craftsman shop. Be flexible and you will likely be very happy.

I saw this play out as an eager 18 yr old kid who dropped off a 351C block and heads to a locally respected machine shop. His rep, great work but don't hold your breath waiting on it.

Saw it play out 20 years later buying a custom steel mtn bike frame. It was ready when it was ready, not when he promised it would be ready.

You don't want the craftsman to drop his attention toward his craft, to be a "more predictable businessman" unless you want him to degrade his work. That's how I see it.

 

[Sigma]

1. Is that a Carbon barrel?
2. Are those groups larger than 4 rds?
3. What do you think that proves?

yeah its a carbon.

no they are 2 shot groups. 100 yards.

here was the 2 shot group (34.5) after those 33.0, 33.5 and 34.0 charges i posted previously, as you can see i blew out the node (charge started getting a little hot).

they were are all shot about 5 mins apart in some windy and gusty conditions (waited to shooting during the let offs.

i did move the poi after my 33.0 and 33.5 groups.

you think 4 back to back 2 shot groups across 5% powder charges all shooting under 1/4 moa doesn't prove anything at all?

when you know a gun is capable of shooting in the 1's you can do things differently than a walmart hunting gun as you have different expectations on how it should shoot.

i didn't want to get off topic, i'm just saying that so far this proof carbon on my specialty hunting pistol build is shooting in line with what I would expect from a brux, bartlein, or krieger on my traditional benchrest rifles

 

[db2000]

yeah its a carbon.

no they are 2 shot groups. 100 yards.

here was the 2 shot group (34.5) after those 33.0, 33.5 and 34.0 charges i posted previously, as you can see i blew out the node (charge started getting a little hot).

they were are all shot about 5 mins apart in some windy and gusty conditions (waited to shooting during the let offs.

i did move the poi after my 33.0 and 33.5 groups.

you think 4 back to back 2 shot groups across 5% powder charges all shooting under 1/4 moa doesn't prove anything at all?

when you know a gun is capable of shooting in the 1's you can do things differently than a walmart hunting gun as you have different expectations on how it should shoot.

i didn't want to get off topic, i'm just saying that so far this proof carbon on my specialty hunting pistol build is shooting in line with what I would expect from a brux, bartlein, or krieger on my traditional benchrest rifles

It’s not about opinions, it’s about facts.

A few 2 shot groups, in fact, doesn’t prove anything other than it can shoot 2 shot groups as they are with those combos.
IF, you take the best group and reproduce those 2 shot groups with a cold barrel again and again then you “prove” it might make a great hunting rifle…IF you never need to shoot more than twice and only at 100 yards. It MIGHT continue that consistency at further distance and/or with more shots or it might not.
Hopefully that helps clarify. No one serious about shooting is going to put any stock in 2 shot groups. Just letting you know. Good luck with it. It will likely shoot great.

 

[Holliday]

Judas freakin Priest, reading through this thread it is no freaking wonder why customers in the gun industry get treated the way they do.

I run a small business and if I treated my customers (the ones who feed, clothe and house me) like this, I would find a tree and throw a rope.

Since I have been a member here the shenanigans have witnessed, then the people victim, blaming and shaming, never fails to utterly amaze me. I have experienced some of these shenanigans firsthand. Fortunately, I don’t have enough disposable income to get myself in serious hot water with some of these idiots.

Business practices and ethics are something I discuss quite a bit with people. I have dealt with many, many industries over the course of my life. Too many damn hobbies, interests and business ventures. The gun industry bar none, is the example I use of terrible business practices and customer Stockholm syndrome. I have never seen anything like it anywhere else.

At the bare minimum these businesses could stop acting like prissy high school mean-girls and properly communicate. ESPECIALLY when they have someone’s money. It costs you nothing to properly communicate and fall on the proverbial bended knee when you screw up.

To the folks and businesses who have offered to help this guy out without victim shaming/blaming, I commend you. Well damn done.

 

[Sigma]

It’s not about opinions, it’s about facts.

A few 2 shot groups, in fact, doesn’t prove anything other than it can shoot 2 shot groups as they are with those combos.
IF, you take the best group and reproduce those 2 shot groups with a cold barrel again and again then you “prove” it might make a great hunting rifle…IF you never need to shoot more than twice and only at 100 yards. It MIGHT continue that consistency at further distance and/or with more shots or it might not.
Hopefully that helps clarify. No one serious about shooting is going to put any stock in 2 shot groups. Just letting you know. Good luck with it. It will likely shoot great.

it's just for testing different bullets and identifying nodes. i'm on shot #90 with this barrel and other combos have been doing the same. so far it's been very promising that this barrel is going to hammer.

i have a 28" proof carbon on a 338 reaper build i bought second hand and seems to be a hammer as well

edit: i was leary on proof as i thought i needed a bartlein carbon or similar, so far the proofs have been meeting my demands. i cannot speak for the prefits.

 

[db2000]

it's just for testing different bullets and identifying nodes. i'm on shot #90 with this barrel and other combos have been doing the same. so far it's been very promising that this barrel is going to hammer.

i have a 28" proof carbon on a 338 reaper build i bought second hand and seems to be a hammer as well

Now that’s a statement I can get behind.

 

[Sigma]

Judas freakin Priest, reading through this thread it is no freaking wonder why customers in the gun industry get treated the way they do.

I run a small business and if I treated my customers (the ones who feed, clothe and house me) like this, I would find a tree and throw a rope.

Since I have been a member here the shenanigans have witnessed, then the people victim, blaming and shaming, never fails to utterly amaze me. I have experienced some of these shenanigans firsthand. Fortunately, I don’t have enough disposable income to get myself in serious hot water with some of these idiots.

Business practices and ethics are something I discuss quite a bit with people. I have dealt with many, many industries over the course of my life. Too many damn hobbies, interests and business ventures. The gun industry bar none, is the example I use of terrible business practices and customer Stockholm syndrome. I have never seen anything like it anywhere else.

At the bare minimum these businesses could stop acting like prissy high school mean-girls and properly communicate. ESPECIALLY when they have someone’s money. It costs you nothing to properly communicate and fall on the proverbial bended knee when you screw up.

To the folks and businesses who have offered to help this guy out without victim shaming/blaming, I commend you. Well damn done.

View attachment 8792805

its no secret that building a custom is typically a nightmare of unknown and extended wait times, but I agree it shouldn't be that way when people are shelling out the amount of money this stuff costs.

and agreed, big props to the few kind folks that stepped up offered their rigs to this gentleman. great example of the people and generosity within the gun community.

 

[WindstormSCR]

.I appreciate the support and recommendations guys.No, worries, i'm not giving up on all my tags.Just kind of a perfect storm.This year where everything kind of went wrong. This is my first year, actually hunting.And I don't know a lot of people in that space.Late in life first timer here.So all the gear I had was tactically oriented and too small caliber to hunt with here. Unfortunately, my neighbors have spare rifles, but they had already been promised to others.
And basically just working through some scheduling conflicts, but it's looking like i'm only going to lose out on two tags, and I should be able to borrow a rifle for my other two.Here's to hoping

If you're hunting inside 500 yds, most big box cheaper bolt actions will be serviceable for the job, and then you have a spare rifle for doing things like load development or using as a beater.

Savage Axis XP comes to mind. They aren't spectacularly great, but they are relatively cheap and available

 

[xxflyingturtlexx]

This problem could be solved with one simple trick: "We do not provide lead times".

 

[db2000]

This problem could be solved with one simple trick: "We do not provide lead times".

He’s not wrong. Order if you want. We don’t need your fucking business.
I mean, that’s what this comes down to. Straight honesty. I like it.

 

[JR1200W3]

This problem could be solved with one simple trick: "We do not provide lead times".

Are you giving Paul at Ingenuity business advice?

 

[4g64loser]

This problem could be solved with one simple trick: "We do not provide lead times".

True. However, there ARE outfits that provide lead times and tend to keep their word. The market can decide who to patronize. Both will continue to exist but I suspect the majority of the business will migrate to one of the two models.....

Drift warning: GF has a defiance being built by a smith. She said I should do the same.caliber so we can develop loads at the same time. I said ok. I'm now the bad guy because I called up a company I have bought from frequently and my barrel is sitting on the rack and her gun was supposed to have been done this summer. Ordered last winter. My comment that she should have talked to Josh at PVA or called TS or Altus was not well received.

 

[hlee]

When you put your application in for a draw hunt is not also the time to start the build for your hunting rifle. You should have your hunting rifle before you apply for a hunt. If you do not, your first priority- before getting the tag- is to acquire that rifle. You should be squared away on your gear before the tag is drawn. Once the tag is drawn, that is your signal to shake down your gear and finalize your fitness. If you still don’t have a rifle the week before your hunt, that is 1000% on you, not your builder, assembler, parts provider, etc. That’s you.

Oh, and don’t sell your only rifle to fund a build. First, you’re out of a rifle until that build is done. Second, if finances are so tight that you need to sell one to buy one, you probably should be hitting other financial priorities. Finally, if you must sell a rifle, do it only after that spot in the safe is filled- ie, after the build is complete.

 

[20drone19]

When you put your application in for a draw hunt is not also the time to start the build for your hunting rifle. You should have your hunting rifle before you apply for a hunt. If you do not, your first priority- before getting the tag- is to acquire that rifle. You should be squared away on your gear before the tag is drawn. Once the tag is drawn, that is your signal to shake down your gear and finalize your fitness. If you still don’t have a rifle the week before your hunt, that is 1000% on you, not your builder, assembler, parts provider, etc. That’s you.

Oh, and don’t sell your only rifle to fund a build. First, you’re out of a rifle until that build is done. Second, if finances are so tight that you need to sell one to buy one, you probably should be hitting other financial priorities. Finally, if you must sell a rifle, do it only after that spot in the safe is filled- ie, after the build is complete.

SO TRUE. THANKS FOR THIS. I tried to explain this but you did it so much better.

 

[zeroz]

Didn't read the whole thread but if you're jammed up, live or are hunting anywhere near central CO I can help you out. PM me.

 

[20drone19]

Didn't read the whole thread but if you're jammed up, live or are hunting anywhere near central CO I can help you out. PM me.

We peps in colorado are all the same! I live in southwest, colorado, and I made the same offer to him.And I even offered my reloads, which are calibrated for my rifle, have not heard anything from him.It's kind of neat that you offered as well