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is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

G

GSRswapandslow

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Full Member
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Dec 13, 2008
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North Carolina, Hudson (28638)
I got my first 3 AR500 targets last week and took one with me to the range. I mounted it at 100yds on some bailing wire (i have chain now, it was a rush job) and shot it with my .223 bolt....I only shot it 3 times..but each round made a slight dimple in the metal. I was shooting some cheap, Walmart, American eagle (AE223H or something along those lines...) and it's NOT steel core.

Is this normal? I mean, the dimples are very shallow...but with continued use, I can easily see this target eroding away within a year or two...
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

Yep.

It seems to do it much less with AR550, but you can still see tiny impacts.

If you want them to last, don't bang away at close range. Put em a couple hundred yards out.

Velocity kills steel.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

223 is tough on steel at close range - especially with bullets lighter than 75gr, as they are very fast. There is a reason every competition has a ~3100fps speed limit.

Interestingly, speed is about 95% of what hurts steel. A 55gr 223 @ 3300fps is tougher on steel than a 300gr 338LM @ 2750.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 55gr 223 @ 3300fps is tougher on steel than a 300gr 338LM @ 2750. </div></div>

The .338 would just bust brackets and hangers.
wink.gif
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

good deal....problem is...the most I have is 200yds at the range. BUT, i bought a 4, 6, 8 round hangers...i plan on taking the 6 and 8" up to my bil's tree farm...he thinks we can stretch 400-500 yards, MAYBE more....

Do you think the 4" at 200 from a chain will be fine? I'm sure the other plates at 400+ will be fine....
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GSRswapandslow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you think the 4" at 200 from a chain will be fine?</div></div>

No, they'll get torn up in short order.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

Do what you need to do with it, bang away and replace when necessary.

They aren't collectors items.

Obviously we want our steel investment to last, but if you can't shoot it....what good is it?
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">223 is tough on steel at close range - especially with bullets lighter than 75gr, as they are very fast. There is a reason every competition has a ~3100fps speed limit.

Interestingly, speed is about 95% of what hurts steel. A 55gr 223 @ 3300fps is tougher on steel than a 300gr 338LM @ 2750.</div></div>

Knew a guy in undergrad who got into studying high-pressure effects on materials by crushing them between two industrial strength diamonds from a fluke miss on a dartboard. The dart hit a window in his dorm room and shattered it. After he did the math, he figured out how many tons per centimeter squared and was impressed and interested enough to run it by one of his professors and change his major/career route. That was around 1984, I'm sure such science is old hat by now.

A .223 bullet's energy if focused on a much smaller area upon initial impact compared to a .338. All things being equal, KE=1/2 MVV isn't.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

200 yards will be fine. Small dimples with the higher velocity stuff. Hardly a scratch with 69gr or higher ammo. Either way, it'll be a long time before your plate is unsafe to use at that range.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">223 is tough on steel at close range - especially with bullets lighter than 75gr, as they are very fast. There is a reason every competition has a ~3100fps speed limit.

Interestingly, speed is about 95% of what hurts steel. A 55gr 223 @ 3300fps is tougher on steel than a 300gr 338LM @ 2750. </div></div>

The Kinetic Energy of those two as defined:

KE(223)= 1,329.8 foot-pounds of engergy
KE(338)= 5,037.2 foot-pounds of engergy

So, the 300gr .338 hits 3.79 times harder than the 55gr .223...

Across the area of the bullet, that equals:

Frontal area pressure(.224 diameter)= 34,047.6 psi
Frontal area pressure(.338 diameter)= 56,139.2 psi

Again, the .338's hit with more pressure across the bullets diameter, now it might be possible for those to be different if the tip of the 223 is enough times smaller than the 338. But, I don't know since I can't measure those at this time.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

Holy smokes ptaylor!!!! Theres no way thats AR500 steel is it???


Yes, .223 or anything really fast in 22 cal or 6mm cal might put a little dimple in the steel.

No big deal though, keep shooting, keep painting, and flip it over and pound on it some more!!!

Or put it out a little further and the dimple will go away!



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ptaylor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sometimes the steel is not up to par.
DSCF0065.jpg
</div></div>
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GSRswapandslow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Do you think the 4" at 200 from a chain will be fine? I'm sure the other plates at 400+ will be fine.... </div></div>

I was just shooting some of JCvibby's AR500 at 220 yards and it was just fine, even with fast 50 grain 223. Didn't scratch it at all. You should be fine if you're not loading stuff super hot.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do what you need to do with it, bang away and replace when necessary.

They aren't collectors items.

Obviously we want our steel investment to last, but if you can't shoot it....what good is it? </div></div>

Couldn't agree more!!!
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

I do not use my good AR steel or any steel at that matter closer than 350-400 yds. Any thing closer I use paper to really see where I'm at. With the 260 or 308 bullets. I can see em in a shoot n see targets out that far. Then I use steel. Good luck
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

Speed kills steel because speed = heat.

Remember those high-speed bullet impact videos? There are clues there, even without going to IR imaging.

Heat + pressure + fluid movement = erosion.

Temperatures are funny things. You should see what helium does something below 2 degrees Kelvin.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

Try shooting a spire point instead of a FMJ. Lots of loadings in the 223. Should just blow the paint off your steel. JPG
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

We have had to check all our ammo with magnets recently because of target damage. Some American Eagle has been found that can be picked up by a magnet. Just because it shouldn't have a steel core doesn't mean it doesn't.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

damn, glad I read this! Just put some brand new steel targets together: AR500, 3/8" thick. Hit it with a 338 LM (not sure of bullet weight or velocity) at 100 and it did nothing to the steel. Now the mounting system, that is another story, but the steel was fine! :p I then hit it with a 154gr soft-point 7.62x39, at 100, and that actually put a small crater in the steel, but no dent from behind.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

Um, steel core is not quite the same as iron jacket.

But both are bad, bad on steel targets. Harder metal than copper or lead = hotter at the melt point = more cratering at the same impact distance. The specific heat of ferrous alloys might be higher, too, resulting in more heat energy being transferred per microsecond..

There's no hardness of steel that can resist cratering if it's being melted.

I could look that up if you want.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

200 yards with a 338 Lapua.The head flew about 40 yards!

9f01cc68.jpg
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sandbogg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">200 yards with a 338 Lapua.The head flew about 40 yards!

9f01cc68.jpg
</div></div>

That will teach it not to stick its head up again. Nice shot.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sandbogg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">200 yards with a 338 Lapua.The head flew about 40 yards!

9f01cc68.jpg
</div></div>

Looks like there was no radius at the neck/shoulder joint so the crack had an easy time propagating from there. We used to cut targets similar to that for a customer, and they had the same issue eventually. Now we have something like a 1/4" or 3/8" radius at the neck/shoulder intersection and they last a lot longer.

I was at the range this past weekend and the RO there checking ammo told me that they had recently found Winchester White Box 5.56 with steel jacketed bullets AND reloads with 55gn Winchester FMJ pills with copper washed steel jackets. Check the back of the package for the "Made in" markings. He said all of the steel jacket components were made offshore, but that some (Korean I think) were still copper. The US made stuff they've checked so far has been copper jacket.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

Fast twist 223 is very damaging to even good quality steel.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

well, i've shot it more....and all seems well. my reloads of 68gr, 75gr, and 50gr vmax don't even touch the steel....just clean off the paint!

my best friend said a .308 would do more damage than my .223...we we tested his theory on the smallest steel i had. he lost. .308 with 168gr smk's, 175gr smk's, and 155gr somethings did considerably less damage than the FMJ .223's I shot the first day.


i'm satisfied with the steel...going to get an 1/2" 25% IPSC target and a 1/2" 6x6 plate to shoot now, as well
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

I had some left over 1/2" Manganese plate from when we re-built the blast cabinet at work. From my understanding (which has been wrong before), it is even harder than AR500.

I had 3 targets made up with it and I'm here to say that stuff is harder than all the other targets we have. A .308 doesn't even hardly mark it. We shot is with a .338 Lapua at 300 yards and it barely put a dent in it.

If you can ever get your hands on some (rather pricey), give it a shot.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

i didnt see you mention how thick it was. i have 1/2" and they are fine with 223 at 100yds. the private range i go to has 1.5" thick ar500 and those things are not yet marked....
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

I've shot hundreds of BH 77 grain .223 at 6" and 8" 3/8 ar500 at 100 yards and thousands at 150 out to 600 and never had an issue. My close ones hang by chain and the 200 and longer are bolted to trees. It may be the diameter of the steel and that it's swinging that has prevented damage to the close ones. Really: nothing but a little surface scratching at a hundred.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

I'm going to try an experiment today and move up to 50 yards and shoot the small hangers to see whats happens. I'll be disappointed if there's heavy damage because all my plates are 3/8". I suspect that because they are through bolted and hanging from the chain at an angle the damage will be minor.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

Had the same thing happen to the LV Steel target I have. .223 eats it up a bit, especially if you hit right on the edge. The one I have has a heart swinger. Since it moves it seem to take less of a beating.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

If you hit on the edge of any target, its probably going to chip off, just the nature of shooting a fast object at a stationary target.

The biggest thing is to know the limits of the steel. It will in fact last a really long time if you shoot at the right distances, with the right guns, and right ammo.

We have a few torture test 6x6 squares in 1/2" premium AR500 that have seen thousands of rounds at 25 yards or so. They have seen rounds from 5.56 AP rounds, 338 lapua, 50 BMG, and everything in between. The most damage came from the 5.56 Armor Piercing rounds for sure. We are pleased about the results, but at the same time, a few dimples and poke marks on not a big deal to us. Keep painting it and start shooting again. When it wears out beyond recognition, get another target and start all over again.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

I've had 7mm (140g factory hunting ammo) pass clean through AR500 3/8 plate at 100 yards. I was shocked that the bullet cut through the plate like hot butter. That said, 180 Berger VLDs at 3100fps just dimple the same plate...go figure
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

Next time go AR600 if you plan on shooting them with rifle calibers.

I only shoot my Ar500 steel with 45ACP and 9mm. Of course it gets the occasional 22.lr round, but that isn't even worth mention when you are talking about abrasion resistant steel.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GSRswapandslow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2012-06-20_12-17-52_956.jpg

2012-06-20_12-17-46_490.jpg

2012-06-20_12-18-04_698.jpg

2012-06-20_12-18-12_130.jpg
</div></div>


Curious, how well does the chain hold up? I have some AR500 circle plates from 10" down to 3" and want to build a press your luck setup.

Thanks
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

Chain is fine but it doesn't last a long time. One or two hits with a rifle to the chain and it just breaks. Then your target is out of order.

I would suggest conveyer belt or firehose. It lasts forever. 500 hits or so to the belt or so before it needs to be replaced. 500 hits compared to 2 hits makes an easy decision for us

We sell long strips of conveyer belt complete with 1/2" grade 8 mounting hardware for $7 if interested. Can fit about 8 strips in one box.
 
Re: is it normal for 3/8" AR500 to dimple at 100??

How long are they? Check your PM as well.
 
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