...do you find yourself ranging at various magnifications? I am trying to decide if it is worth getting a FFP scope but it seems like most people i have talked to so far don't range at anything but full magnification. Looking at a 6.5-20, if that matters.
Rifle Scopes For those of you with FFP...
- Thread starter SLO
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Re: For those of you with FFP...
FFP is useful, and I would say more useful, than for just ranging. Ranging is down the list as to why I use a FFP scope. I use it more for elevation holds and corrections, mover holds and wind holds.
Also sometimes you might not be able to be on full power due to mirage so being able to dial down and range is good to have.
FFP is useful, and I would say more useful, than for just ranging. Ranging is down the list as to why I use a FFP scope. I use it more for elevation holds and corrections, mover holds and wind holds.
Also sometimes you might not be able to be on full power due to mirage so being able to dial down and range is good to have.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
FFP is very useful because of the ability to hold ove with the reticler at any magnification and have the holds be a true mil or MOA. It's also handy for ranging but more for the hold overs or holding for the wind. 24 power on a day with bad mirage is nearly imopposble to see the target so with a FFP scope you can reduce the power and still us the reticle to hold over and range targets accurately and be able to see through the mirage better.
EDIT: Rob beat me to it....damn IPhone keypad...
FFP is very useful because of the ability to hold ove with the reticler at any magnification and have the holds be a true mil or MOA. It's also handy for ranging but more for the hold overs or holding for the wind. 24 power on a day with bad mirage is nearly imopposble to see the target so with a FFP scope you can reduce the power and still us the reticle to hold over and range targets accurately and be able to see through the mirage better.
EDIT: Rob beat me to it....damn IPhone keypad...
Re: For those of you with FFP...
Yes it matters depending on what your going to do with the scope. It's 94 degrees here today, suppose to be over 100 the rest of the week. Something tells me 20x isn't going to work to well, heck 6.5x might not work. Also there's more to it than just ranging.
Plenty of threads on here with lots of info on the differences, easy to make an educated decision.
Good Luck!
Yes it matters depending on what your going to do with the scope. It's 94 degrees here today, suppose to be over 100 the rest of the week. Something tells me 20x isn't going to work to well, heck 6.5x might not work. Also there's more to it than just ranging.
Plenty of threads on here with lots of info on the differences, easy to make an educated decision.
Good Luck!
Re: For those of you with FFP...
Looks like we were all waiting on someone to ask that question.
Looks like we were all waiting on someone to ask that question.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FFP is useful, and I would say more useful, than for just ranging. Ranging is down the list as to why I use a FFP scope. I use it more for elevation holds and corrections, mover holds and wind holds.
Also sometimes you might not be able to be on full power due to mirage so being able to dial down and range is good to have.</div></div>
^^^ what this guy said ^^^
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FFP is useful, and I would say more useful, than for just ranging. Ranging is down the list as to why I use a FFP scope. I use it more for elevation holds and corrections, mover holds and wind holds.
Also sometimes you might not be able to be on full power due to mirage so being able to dial down and range is good to have.</div></div>
^^^ what this guy said ^^^
Re: For those of you with FFP...
well I have a question that fits with this thread.
I understand that shooting man size targets at multiple ranges the FFP is better. But if you're shooting 5" targets at a set range can you be "as" accurate with the FFP as you can be with the SFP?
well I have a question that fits with this thread.
I understand that shooting man size targets at multiple ranges the FFP is better. But if you're shooting 5" targets at a set range can you be "as" accurate with the FFP as you can be with the SFP?
Re: For those of you with FFP...
Sure. Why wouldn't you be able to? What distance are you concerned with?
Sure. Why wouldn't you be able to? What distance are you concerned with?
Re: For those of you with FFP...
A SFP set on max power and a FFP set on max power are pretty much the same thing at that point. The reticles will be the same size. So to answer your question no there is no real difference between shooting at full power with a SFP vs a FFP.
A SFP set on max power and a FFP set on max power are pretty much the same thing at that point. The reticles will be the same size. So to answer your question no there is no real difference between shooting at full power with a SFP vs a FFP.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
I'll tell you this, once you go FFP, you won't want anything else. Makes things so much simpler.
I'll tell you this, once you go FFP, you won't want anything else. Makes things so much simpler.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
this came right off of this site.
Scopes with SFP reticles are a good choice if the shooter is only target shooting on a “square” range or for a general hunting-type application where using the scope for trajectory compensation at intermediate power settings is not needed.
and it was the lower setting on the FFP I read about. It says at the lower settings the rectical sometimes can't be seen at all depending on the back ground.
this came right off of this site.
Scopes with SFP reticles are a good choice if the shooter is only target shooting on a “square” range or for a general hunting-type application where using the scope for trajectory compensation at intermediate power settings is not needed.
and it was the lower setting on the FFP I read about. It says at the lower settings the rectical sometimes can't be seen at all depending on the back ground.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
Thanks guys...these were exactly the detailed answers I was looking for. Although I was hoping for a different answer so that I didn't get the idea of a new scope in my head...
Thanks guys...these were exactly the detailed answers I was looking for. Although I was hoping for a different answer so that I didn't get the idea of a new scope in my head...
Re: For those of you with FFP...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recondo84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the longer distances. I read where the rectical covers up small targets at long distances. Is that correct? Partly correct?</div></div>
That depends on the size of the reticle. Generally, a ffp will cover more of a target compared to sfp scopes. However, there are ffp reticles like the p4fine and h2cmr that are very good at high mag. Reticle size changing with magnification is the only negative compared to sfp scopes in my opinion. The positives out weigh the negatives.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recondo84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the longer distances. I read where the rectical covers up small targets at long distances. Is that correct? Partly correct?</div></div>
That depends on the size of the reticle. Generally, a ffp will cover more of a target compared to sfp scopes. However, there are ffp reticles like the p4fine and h2cmr that are very good at high mag. Reticle size changing with magnification is the only negative compared to sfp scopes in my opinion. The positives out weigh the negatives.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recondo84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and it was the lower setting on the FFP I read about. It says at the lower settings the rectical sometimes can't be seen at all depending on the back ground.</div></div>
That is true and I have had situations where this happens but it is a rare occasion for me. Can be easily corrected with just turning up the power a bit if the situation allows it.
Also agree with JSF above. Good out weighs the bad.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recondo84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and it was the lower setting on the FFP I read about. It says at the lower settings the rectical sometimes can't be seen at all depending on the back ground.</div></div>
That is true and I have had situations where this happens but it is a rare occasion for me. Can be easily corrected with just turning up the power a bit if the situation allows it.
Also agree with JSF above. Good out weighs the bad.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
I'm glad we're having this conversation because I've been struggling with this for a while. One day I read something about FFP scopes and I'll say thats it I'm buying a FFP. The next day I'll read something about a SFP scope and change my mind. So heres what it comes down to for me.
If I want to make one shot at anything from 750yds and in. And I want to make this shot as accurate as I possably can. I have all the time in the world to make the shot. And I may want to repeat the same shot over and over with the smallest possible shot group. I will probably have a range finder with me to tell me what range to shoot...........what scope would out perform the other? A $2200 FFP or a $1400 SFP?
I'm glad we're having this conversation because I've been struggling with this for a while. One day I read something about FFP scopes and I'll say thats it I'm buying a FFP. The next day I'll read something about a SFP scope and change my mind. So heres what it comes down to for me.
If I want to make one shot at anything from 750yds and in. And I want to make this shot as accurate as I possably can. I have all the time in the world to make the shot. And I may want to repeat the same shot over and over with the smallest possible shot group. I will probably have a range finder with me to tell me what range to shoot...........what scope would out perform the other? A $2200 FFP or a $1400 SFP?
Re: For those of you with FFP...
It's easier to make adjustments for wind when the reticle is true MOA or MIL at any power. SFP you either have to be at full power which you can't always do due to mirage where FFP you can back it down and still hold the wind and make a fast follow up shot accurately without having to guess.
You can get a FFP Vortex for right at $950 to by the way and they work great. Even cheaper through some of the site sponsors.
It's easier to make adjustments for wind when the reticle is true MOA or MIL at any power. SFP you either have to be at full power which you can't always do due to mirage where FFP you can back it down and still hold the wind and make a fast follow up shot accurately without having to guess.
You can get a FFP Vortex for right at $950 to by the way and they work great. Even cheaper through some of the site sponsors.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
I'm not looking for fast follow-up shots. I'm looking for the tightest shot groups I can possably get. Now if thats still the FFP thats awesome. Because I have been looking at the Mil-Dot F1 for a few days and damn near ready to get one. But have also been looking at the Nikon Tactical Monarch. It's driving me crazy!
I'm not looking for fast follow-up shots. I'm looking for the tightest shot groups I can possably get. Now if thats still the FFP thats awesome. Because I have been looking at the Mil-Dot F1 for a few days and damn near ready to get one. But have also been looking at the Nikon Tactical Monarch. It's driving me crazy!
Re: For those of you with FFP...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recondo84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the longer distances. I read where the rectical covers up small targets at long distances. Is that correct? Partly correct?</div></div>
That depends on the size of the reticle. Generally, a ffp will cover more of a target compared to sfp scopes. However, there are ffp reticles like the p4fine and h2cmr that are very good at high mag. Reticle size changing with magnification is the only negative compared to sfp scopes in my opinion. The positives out weigh the negatives. </div></div>
You have it backwards. A FFP reticle does not change size...It is correct at any mag level. Whether the scope is on 5 or 20 in my case the cross-hairs cover exactly .05 of a mil.On a SFP scope if you dial below the "correct" mag, the reticle will cover more of the target.
This is why the FFP reticle is the "no math" reticle! But yes, in some cases a thin reticle can get lost in the background. But it isw always the same size.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recondo84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the longer distances. I read where the rectical covers up small targets at long distances. Is that correct? Partly correct?</div></div>
That depends on the size of the reticle. Generally, a ffp will cover more of a target compared to sfp scopes. However, there are ffp reticles like the p4fine and h2cmr that are very good at high mag. Reticle size changing with magnification is the only negative compared to sfp scopes in my opinion. The positives out weigh the negatives. </div></div>
You have it backwards. A FFP reticle does not change size...It is correct at any mag level. Whether the scope is on 5 or 20 in my case the cross-hairs cover exactly .05 of a mil.On a SFP scope if you dial below the "correct" mag, the reticle will cover more of the target.
This is why the FFP reticle is the "no math" reticle! But yes, in some cases a thin reticle can get lost in the background. But it isw always the same size.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
I dont do much ranging with my FFP, but I do find it very valuable for hold overs and come ups. For example, regardless of what mag im on, if I see an impact 1 mil left at 1000yds, I hold over 1 mil on the next shot. I like that its measurements are constant, regardless of what power im on. It makes getting on target fast and easy. To me, its worth the extra cost.
I dont do much ranging with my FFP, but I do find it very valuable for hold overs and come ups. For example, regardless of what mag im on, if I see an impact 1 mil left at 1000yds, I hold over 1 mil on the next shot. I like that its measurements are constant, regardless of what power im on. It makes getting on target fast and easy. To me, its worth the extra cost.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
sure. maybe not as quickly though.
sure. maybe not as quickly though.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
Why wouldn't you be able to shoot as fast?
Why wouldn't you be able to shoot as fast?
Re: For those of you with FFP...
Jig Stick-it doesn't matter if your using FFP or SFP for a follow up shot using hold overs.
Jig Stick-it doesn't matter if your using FFP or SFP for a follow up shot using hold overs.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman10-32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jig Stick-it doesn't matter if your using FFP or SFP for a follow up shot using hold overs. </div></div>
Sure it does. What if you are not on the "correct" mag for a SFP scope? You have to figure out what your reticle is telling you for the mag you are on... It is a step you don't have to take.
As far as shooting "tight" groups, I guess it depends on the reticle you choose. I use a SS 5-20, and as stated, the cross-hairs are .05mil. Which is finer than the MLR reticle in a SFP Night Force 5.5-22 NXS.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman10-32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jig Stick-it doesn't matter if your using FFP or SFP for a follow up shot using hold overs. </div></div>
Sure it does. What if you are not on the "correct" mag for a SFP scope? You have to figure out what your reticle is telling you for the mag you are on... It is a step you don't have to take.
As far as shooting "tight" groups, I guess it depends on the reticle you choose. I use a SS 5-20, and as stated, the cross-hairs are .05mil. Which is finer than the MLR reticle in a SFP Night Force 5.5-22 NXS.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
If you dial everything it does not matter much. Your POA (Point Of Aim) is always center and incorrect subtensions (ex: 2FP not at max power) can still be used for holds based off visual corrections of POI (Point Of Impact).
If you hold for dope based corrections with the reticle then FFP allows you to maintain the correct application of "dope" at any magnification.
I think most shooters (at least me) start with all knob (dial) based corrections and then quickly graduate to reticle based wind corrections without the knob.
The next practice is using the vertical reticle for elevation without dialing or with resetting the zero to a intermediate range and using hold-unders and hold-overs for shot corrections without dialing in-between. This is usefull in engauging multiple range targets without needing to dial. This also is best performed with a FFP to apply proper magnification to target (ex: at distance/range and movers).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not looking for fast follow-up shots. I'm looking for the tightest shot groups I can possably get. Now if thats still the FFP thats awesome. Because I have been looking at the Mil-Dot F1 for a few days and damn near ready to get one. But have also been looking at the Nikon Tactical Monarch. It's driving me crazy!</div></div>
The 2FP will give you a thinner stadia (thinner reticle) as it doesn't need to (can't) be applied with correct subtenstions below max power. This visual thickness difference is more dramatic with wider FFP mag ranges (ex: 5-20x vs. 3-15x).
Given your input, I don't interpret the need for FFP however consider that this may change in the future.
Hope that helps,
-B
If you dial everything it does not matter much. Your POA (Point Of Aim) is always center and incorrect subtensions (ex: 2FP not at max power) can still be used for holds based off visual corrections of POI (Point Of Impact).
If you hold for dope based corrections with the reticle then FFP allows you to maintain the correct application of "dope" at any magnification.
I think most shooters (at least me) start with all knob (dial) based corrections and then quickly graduate to reticle based wind corrections without the knob.
The next practice is using the vertical reticle for elevation without dialing or with resetting the zero to a intermediate range and using hold-unders and hold-overs for shot corrections without dialing in-between. This is usefull in engauging multiple range targets without needing to dial. This also is best performed with a FFP to apply proper magnification to target (ex: at distance/range and movers).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not looking for fast follow-up shots. I'm looking for the tightest shot groups I can possably get. Now if thats still the FFP thats awesome. Because I have been looking at the Mil-Dot F1 for a few days and damn near ready to get one. But have also been looking at the Nikon Tactical Monarch. It's driving me crazy!</div></div>
The 2FP will give you a thinner stadia (thinner reticle) as it doesn't need to (can't) be applied with correct subtenstions below max power. This visual thickness difference is more dramatic with wider FFP mag ranges (ex: 5-20x vs. 3-15x).
Given your input, I don't interpret the need for FFP however consider that this may change in the future.
Hope that helps,
-B
Re: For those of you with FFP...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: billyburl2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman10-32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jig Stick-it doesn't matter if your using FFP or SFP for a follow up shot using hold overs. </div></div>
Sure it does. What if you are not on the "correct" mag for a SFP scope? You have to figure out what your reticle is telling you for the mag you are on... It is a step you don't have to take.
As far as shooting "tight" groups, I guess it depends on the reticle you choose. I use a SS 5-20, and as stated, the cross-hairs are .05mil. Which is finer than the MLR reticle in a SFP Night Force 5.5-22 NXS.</div></div>
I am a big fan of FFP, but this is incorrect. For a follow up shot it doesn't matter what the markings on the reticle are calibrated to as long as you don't change power adjustment between your first shot and your follow up, and don't try to do any dialing. If you observe the impact as "two has marks over, one hash mark up", you hold off accordingly, it will work just fine, FFP or SFP no matter what power.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: billyburl2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman10-32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jig Stick-it doesn't matter if your using FFP or SFP for a follow up shot using hold overs. </div></div>
Sure it does. What if you are not on the "correct" mag for a SFP scope? You have to figure out what your reticle is telling you for the mag you are on... It is a step you don't have to take.
As far as shooting "tight" groups, I guess it depends on the reticle you choose. I use a SS 5-20, and as stated, the cross-hairs are .05mil. Which is finer than the MLR reticle in a SFP Night Force 5.5-22 NXS.</div></div>
I am a big fan of FFP, but this is incorrect. For a follow up shot it doesn't matter what the markings on the reticle are calibrated to as long as you don't change power adjustment between your first shot and your follow up, and don't try to do any dialing. If you observe the impact as "two has marks over, one hash mark up", you hold off accordingly, it will work just fine, FFP or SFP no matter what power.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
as has been said, you get accurate holds with FFP no matter the mag. if you have a rangefinder and time. FFP doesnt do anything you cant do with SFP. for what its worth, the SEAL sniper that now holds the record for most kills by US sniper, did 3 tours with nightforce 5-22.
as has been said, you get accurate holds with FFP no matter the mag. if you have a rangefinder and time. FFP doesnt do anything you cant do with SFP. for what its worth, the SEAL sniper that now holds the record for most kills by US sniper, did 3 tours with nightforce 5-22.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
I think the important thing to ask oneself when looking for a scope is whether they are comfortable to dial in every shot or if they are looking for the ability to quickly and accurately place follow up shots using hold overs, yes?
I think the important thing to ask oneself when looking for a scope is whether they are comfortable to dial in every shot or if they are looking for the ability to quickly and accurately place follow up shots using hold overs, yes?
Re: For those of you with FFP...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman10-32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jig Stick-it doesn't matter if your using FFP or SFP for a follow up shot using hold overs. </div></div>
Pointman, they just don't get it. It really frustrates the hell out of me. There is so much disinformation about FFP vs SFP that it just drives me crazy. You said it first Pointman, holdovers are done exactly the same on both scopes. As someone mentioned, as long as you don't change magnification between shots. Even if you do change magnification, you simply measure the difference between POA & POI on the new setting, and hold over that amount. Follow up shots are done at exactly the same speed in exactly the same way with both types of reticles. I don't know of anyone who changes magnification in between initial shot and follow ups.
I've stated before, and been flamed for it, that ranging a small target at long distance can not be done near as accurately as a rangefinder. A garage door? Absolutely. A small target of about 5" by 8", no way. If you use reading glasses, good luck. I want my shot to be as precise as possible. A rangefinder trumps an FFP scope every time.
FFP does have some strengths. For targets of known sizes, and varying distances, FFP is great for ranging, as long as the target is of adequate size. For a small target at a long range, say 800 meters +, you would have to be at max magnification to get any kind of a decent measurement. With mirage, you would have to drop down in magnification. The target gets smaller, the reticle gets smaller, the subtensions get closer together, and it gets pretty impossible to see if your reading is .6 mil or .8 mil. If you want to hit the target in as few of shots as possible, hopefully 1-2 shots, you need the precision of a rangefinder, not an FFP reticle. FFP is tactical. Great for a semi-auto or doable with a 10 round detachable mag bolt gun for ranges under 800 meters.
The only advantage of FFP is subtensions remain the same value at any magnification. If you need to <span style="font-weight: bold">dial dope between shots,</span> you don't have to worry what magnification you are on. 1 mil = 1 mil. 1 MOA = 1 MOA. For hold overs,<span style="font-weight: bold"> it doesn't matter if you have SFP or FFP.</span>
For dialing dope, SFP is 1 mil or 1 MOA at max magnification. Backing off 1 magnification is usually enough to get rid of mirage. Here is the complicated math on my scope.
24x 1 mil or 1 MOA
12x 1 mil or 1 MOA x 2
8x 1 mil or 1 MOA x 3
6x 1 mil or 1 MOA x 4
It's not that difficult. If you want to adjust for mirage, find the proper magnification and use the large multiplier of 1-4. I doubt you will need to hop back and forth between magnifications.
For targets 0 to 200 meters, use iron sights, red dot, or low magnification.
For targets 200 meters to 1800 meters, use SFP or FFP, makes no difference.
Use a rangefinder and if the batteries die, range with the FFP with shrinking subtensions, or SFP with complicated math like 2 mils x 4.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman10-32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jig Stick-it doesn't matter if your using FFP or SFP for a follow up shot using hold overs. </div></div>
Pointman, they just don't get it. It really frustrates the hell out of me. There is so much disinformation about FFP vs SFP that it just drives me crazy. You said it first Pointman, holdovers are done exactly the same on both scopes. As someone mentioned, as long as you don't change magnification between shots. Even if you do change magnification, you simply measure the difference between POA & POI on the new setting, and hold over that amount. Follow up shots are done at exactly the same speed in exactly the same way with both types of reticles. I don't know of anyone who changes magnification in between initial shot and follow ups.
I've stated before, and been flamed for it, that ranging a small target at long distance can not be done near as accurately as a rangefinder. A garage door? Absolutely. A small target of about 5" by 8", no way. If you use reading glasses, good luck. I want my shot to be as precise as possible. A rangefinder trumps an FFP scope every time.
FFP does have some strengths. For targets of known sizes, and varying distances, FFP is great for ranging, as long as the target is of adequate size. For a small target at a long range, say 800 meters +, you would have to be at max magnification to get any kind of a decent measurement. With mirage, you would have to drop down in magnification. The target gets smaller, the reticle gets smaller, the subtensions get closer together, and it gets pretty impossible to see if your reading is .6 mil or .8 mil. If you want to hit the target in as few of shots as possible, hopefully 1-2 shots, you need the precision of a rangefinder, not an FFP reticle. FFP is tactical. Great for a semi-auto or doable with a 10 round detachable mag bolt gun for ranges under 800 meters.
The only advantage of FFP is subtensions remain the same value at any magnification. If you need to <span style="font-weight: bold">dial dope between shots,</span> you don't have to worry what magnification you are on. 1 mil = 1 mil. 1 MOA = 1 MOA. For hold overs,<span style="font-weight: bold"> it doesn't matter if you have SFP or FFP.</span>
For dialing dope, SFP is 1 mil or 1 MOA at max magnification. Backing off 1 magnification is usually enough to get rid of mirage. Here is the complicated math on my scope.
24x 1 mil or 1 MOA
12x 1 mil or 1 MOA x 2
8x 1 mil or 1 MOA x 3
6x 1 mil or 1 MOA x 4
It's not that difficult. If you want to adjust for mirage, find the proper magnification and use the large multiplier of 1-4. I doubt you will need to hop back and forth between magnifications.
For targets 0 to 200 meters, use iron sights, red dot, or low magnification.
For targets 200 meters to 1800 meters, use SFP or FFP, makes no difference.
Use a rangefinder and if the batteries die, range with the FFP with shrinking subtensions, or SFP with complicated math like 2 mils x 4.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recondo84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well I have a question that fits with this thread.
I understand that shooting man size targets at multiple ranges the FFP is better. But if you're shooting 5" targets at a set range can you be "as" accurate with the FFP as you can be with the SFP?</div></div>
I have shot at 5" targets at 1000 yards as a stage at a match and had no problem with either my NF F1 or my S&B 5-25x56. It's the same as shooting a 1/2" dot at 100 yards as far as looks through the scope.
Been using FFP since around 2005 and would never go back to SFP. There's no advantage to SFP for me and it's actually more to worry about when under time or stress.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recondo84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well I have a question that fits with this thread.
I understand that shooting man size targets at multiple ranges the FFP is better. But if you're shooting 5" targets at a set range can you be "as" accurate with the FFP as you can be with the SFP?</div></div>
I have shot at 5" targets at 1000 yards as a stage at a match and had no problem with either my NF F1 or my S&B 5-25x56. It's the same as shooting a 1/2" dot at 100 yards as far as looks through the scope.
Been using FFP since around 2005 and would never go back to SFP. There's no advantage to SFP for me and it's actually more to worry about when under time or stress.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattj</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: billyburl2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman10-32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jig Stick-it doesn't matter if your using FFP or SFP for a follow up shot using hold overs. </div></div>
Sure it does. What if you are not on the "correct" mag for a SFP scope? You have to figure out what your reticle is telling you for the mag you are on... It is a step you don't have to take.
As far as shooting "tight" groups, I guess it depends on the reticle you choose. I use a SS 5-20, and as stated, the cross-hairs are .05mil. Which is finer than the MLR reticle in a SFP Night Force 5.5-22 NXS.</div></div>
I am a big fan of FFP, but this is incorrect. For a follow up shot it doesn't matter what the markings on the reticle are calibrated to as long as you don't change power adjustment between your first shot and your follow up, and don't try to do any dialing. If you observe the impact as "two has marks over, one hash mark up", you hold off accordingly, it will work just fine, FFP or SFP no matter what power. </div></div>
Matt- With all due respect, your comment assumes that you are spotting for yourself. If you have a spotter and you are receiving "non adjusted" corrections, an FFP scope once more trumps.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattj</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: billyburl2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman10-32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jig Stick-it doesn't matter if your using FFP or SFP for a follow up shot using hold overs. </div></div>
Sure it does. What if you are not on the "correct" mag for a SFP scope? You have to figure out what your reticle is telling you for the mag you are on... It is a step you don't have to take.
As far as shooting "tight" groups, I guess it depends on the reticle you choose. I use a SS 5-20, and as stated, the cross-hairs are .05mil. Which is finer than the MLR reticle in a SFP Night Force 5.5-22 NXS.</div></div>
I am a big fan of FFP, but this is incorrect. For a follow up shot it doesn't matter what the markings on the reticle are calibrated to as long as you don't change power adjustment between your first shot and your follow up, and don't try to do any dialing. If you observe the impact as "two has marks over, one hash mark up", you hold off accordingly, it will work just fine, FFP or SFP no matter what power. </div></div>
Matt- With all due respect, your comment assumes that you are spotting for yourself. If you have a spotter and you are receiving "non adjusted" corrections, an FFP scope once more trumps.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
Scout & seaaggle both make very valid reasons for FFP. It is one less variable to worry about when your subtensions values remain the same. In timed and stressful events, you will have trouble focusing on every little detail. It also eliminates you and our spotter being on a different page. That can make two people look like tards in a heartbeat.
There are deffinately advantages to FFP. There really is only 1 drawback that I can think of, that is the reticle getting smaller on lower magnification. Even then, there is less bullet drop at shorter ranges so there is less need for using the fine increments of subtensions. If adjusting down for mirage, but still shooting at long range, SFP would allow a more precise shot, but for banging steel, FFP will get 'er done.
Scout & seaaggle both make very valid reasons for FFP. It is one less variable to worry about when your subtensions values remain the same. In timed and stressful events, you will have trouble focusing on every little detail. It also eliminates you and our spotter being on a different page. That can make two people look like tards in a heartbeat.
There are deffinately advantages to FFP. There really is only 1 drawback that I can think of, that is the reticle getting smaller on lower magnification. Even then, there is less bullet drop at shorter ranges so there is less need for using the fine increments of subtensions. If adjusting down for mirage, but still shooting at long range, SFP would allow a more precise shot, but for banging steel, FFP will get 'er done.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glocksteady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If adjusting down for mirage, but still shooting at long range, SFP would allow a more precise shot, but for banging steel, FFP will get 'er done. </div></div>
Explain to me how...say a 5.5-22x56 NF NXS with an MLR reticle allows for "a more precise shot" than a 5-25x56 S&B H2CMR or P4 Fine.
For instance, the P4F covers .13" at 100 yards or .03 mRad on any magnification.
The NF MLR covers .1" at 100 yards or .03 mRad on 22x.
The difference in size is virtually indistinguishable.
Often, shooting long-range, you deal with more mirage. That means turning it down. Say you turn down to 11x. The MLR now covers .2" at 100 yards or .06 mRad while the P4 Fine covers...0.03 mRad.
Or what if you're not experiencing mirage? You can crank up to 25x with the P4 Fine or H2CMR and you're still covering .03 mRad.
Sorry, the "more precise shot placement" argument doesn't hold any water with quality FFP scopes. If you're finding it an issue, you should check into 6 o'clock holds.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glocksteady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If adjusting down for mirage, but still shooting at long range, SFP would allow a more precise shot, but for banging steel, FFP will get 'er done. </div></div>
Explain to me how...say a 5.5-22x56 NF NXS with an MLR reticle allows for "a more precise shot" than a 5-25x56 S&B H2CMR or P4 Fine.
For instance, the P4F covers .13" at 100 yards or .03 mRad on any magnification.
The NF MLR covers .1" at 100 yards or .03 mRad on 22x.
The difference in size is virtually indistinguishable.
Often, shooting long-range, you deal with more mirage. That means turning it down. Say you turn down to 11x. The MLR now covers .2" at 100 yards or .06 mRad while the P4 Fine covers...0.03 mRad.
Or what if you're not experiencing mirage? You can crank up to 25x with the P4 Fine or H2CMR and you're still covering .03 mRad.
Sorry, the "more precise shot placement" argument doesn't hold any water with quality FFP scopes. If you're finding it an issue, you should check into 6 o'clock holds.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Varmint Slayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll tell you this, once you go FFP, you won't want anything else. Makes things so much simpler. </div></div>
^^^
speaks the truth
Ive tried to go back to the sfp but cant do it
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Varmint Slayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll tell you this, once you go FFP, you won't want anything else. Makes things so much simpler. </div></div>
^^^
speaks the truth
Ive tried to go back to the sfp but cant do it
Re: For those of you with FFP...
Good points Tyler. As a real world example this past week when shooting the SH Cup in WY I was getting mirage and was shooting most all targets on 12x including shots out to 1150 yards. Had to dial down to 10x sometimes. Not man sized targets but 6-16" steel. No problems seeing and engaging the targets with a S&B 5-25x56 with H2CMR.
Good points Tyler. As a real world example this past week when shooting the SH Cup in WY I was getting mirage and was shooting most all targets on 12x including shots out to 1150 yards. Had to dial down to 10x sometimes. Not man sized targets but 6-16" steel. No problems seeing and engaging the targets with a S&B 5-25x56 with H2CMR.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
Say you are prarie dog hunting..early morning you are using Max power of your scope and find your wind holds..now as the day starts to warm up and mirage becomes a factor you will be dialing down on power. With a sfp you are suddenly missing the critters since your subtensions have changed (1 mil is no longer 1 mil). With ffp 1 mil is always 1 mil. and your holds will stay constant.
Say you are prarie dog hunting..early morning you are using Max power of your scope and find your wind holds..now as the day starts to warm up and mirage becomes a factor you will be dialing down on power. With a sfp you are suddenly missing the critters since your subtensions have changed (1 mil is no longer 1 mil). With ffp 1 mil is always 1 mil. and your holds will stay constant.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
like these guys say, ffp is the way to go. shooting 600 yard mid range match, i always try to fire my 2 sighters with what i think the wind is. once the second shot is marked, at any power, i can use my retical to gauge, dial in for wind and shoot. if i have to hold an moa at any power its still 1 moa.
like these guys say, ffp is the way to go. shooting 600 yard mid range match, i always try to fire my 2 sighters with what i think the wind is. once the second shot is marked, at any power, i can use my retical to gauge, dial in for wind and shoot. if i have to hold an moa at any power its still 1 moa.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glocksteady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If adjusting down for mirage, but still shooting at long range, SFP would allow a more precise shot, but for banging steel, FFP will get 'er done. </div></div>
Explain to me how...say a 5.5-22x56 NF NXS with an MLR reticle allows for "a more precise shot" than a 5-25x56 S&B H2CMR or P4 Fine.
For instance, the P4F covers .13" at 100 yards or .03 mRad on any magnification.
The NF MLR covers .1" at 100 yards or .03 mRad on 22x.
The difference in size is virtually indistinguishable.
Often, shooting long-range, you deal with more mirage. That means turning it down. Say you turn down to 11x. The MLR now covers .2" at 100 yards or .06 mRad while the P4 Fine covers...0.03 mRad.
Or what if you're not experiencing mirage? You can crank up to 25x with the P4 Fine or H2CMR and you're still covering .03 mRad.
Sorry, the "more precise shot placement" argument doesn't hold any water with quality FFP scopes. If you're finding it an issue, you should check into 6 o'clock holds. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Explain to me how...say a 5.5-22x56 NF NXS with an MLR reticle allows for "a more precise shot" than a 5-25x56 S&B H2CMR or P4 Fine.
</div></div>
Good ole Tyler. You never get tired of putting up with me. ;-)
I am unfamiliar with those reticles. I also didn't take into consideration the numerous reticles out there. I was trying to simplify the basic differences in the two scopes for all the people who are confused by incorrect statements about advantages of FFP. I was trying to keep apples with apples. Theoretically, if the reticle is the exact same other than the focal plain, my statement does hold water. Realistically, FFP scope reticles have gone through major R&D to overcome earlier shortcomings. Yes, a quality FFP does help to alleviate the desparity between reticles. I am sorry if I led anyone to believe there are not quality FFP reticles out there. I was referring to my previous point about subtensions getting closer together as you zoom out, it becomes more difficult to descern whether your measurement is .6 or .8 when doping. Especially if you need reading glasses.
I am not having any issues with FFP as the type of shooting I do only requires SFP but thanks for the tip on holds. If I change shooting disciplines, I will look into one of your aforementioned reticles.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glocksteady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If adjusting down for mirage, but still shooting at long range, SFP would allow a more precise shot, but for banging steel, FFP will get 'er done. </div></div>
Explain to me how...say a 5.5-22x56 NF NXS with an MLR reticle allows for "a more precise shot" than a 5-25x56 S&B H2CMR or P4 Fine.
For instance, the P4F covers .13" at 100 yards or .03 mRad on any magnification.
The NF MLR covers .1" at 100 yards or .03 mRad on 22x.
The difference in size is virtually indistinguishable.
Often, shooting long-range, you deal with more mirage. That means turning it down. Say you turn down to 11x. The MLR now covers .2" at 100 yards or .06 mRad while the P4 Fine covers...0.03 mRad.
Or what if you're not experiencing mirage? You can crank up to 25x with the P4 Fine or H2CMR and you're still covering .03 mRad.
Sorry, the "more precise shot placement" argument doesn't hold any water with quality FFP scopes. If you're finding it an issue, you should check into 6 o'clock holds. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Explain to me how...say a 5.5-22x56 NF NXS with an MLR reticle allows for "a more precise shot" than a 5-25x56 S&B H2CMR or P4 Fine.
</div></div>
Good ole Tyler. You never get tired of putting up with me. ;-)
I am unfamiliar with those reticles. I also didn't take into consideration the numerous reticles out there. I was trying to simplify the basic differences in the two scopes for all the people who are confused by incorrect statements about advantages of FFP. I was trying to keep apples with apples. Theoretically, if the reticle is the exact same other than the focal plain, my statement does hold water. Realistically, FFP scope reticles have gone through major R&D to overcome earlier shortcomings. Yes, a quality FFP does help to alleviate the desparity between reticles. I am sorry if I led anyone to believe there are not quality FFP reticles out there. I was referring to my previous point about subtensions getting closer together as you zoom out, it becomes more difficult to descern whether your measurement is .6 or .8 when doping. Especially if you need reading glasses.
I am not having any issues with FFP as the type of shooting I do only requires SFP but thanks for the tip on holds. If I change shooting disciplines, I will look into one of your aforementioned reticles.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
Great, now I need to up my budget once again and plan for the Mark 4 ER/T with FFP. Thanks for the info, everyone!
Great, now I need to up my budget once again and plan for the Mark 4 ER/T with FFP. Thanks for the info, everyone!
Re: For those of you with FFP...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good points Tyler. As a real world example this past week when shooting the SH Cup in WY I was getting mirage and was shooting most all targets on 12x including shots out to 1150 yards. Had to dial down to 10x sometimes. Not man sized targets but 6-16" steel. No problems seeing and engaging the targets with a S&B 5-25x56 with H2CMR.
</div></div>
This was the reason I was going to say. Here at Hardrock the mirage is usually so bad, I always end up lowering the magnification to manage it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good points Tyler. As a real world example this past week when shooting the SH Cup in WY I was getting mirage and was shooting most all targets on 12x including shots out to 1150 yards. Had to dial down to 10x sometimes. Not man sized targets but 6-16" steel. No problems seeing and engaging the targets with a S&B 5-25x56 with H2CMR.
</div></div>
This was the reason I was going to say. Here at Hardrock the mirage is usually so bad, I always end up lowering the magnification to manage it.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
My thought on it a couple years ago was by going all FFP I could eliminate the possibility of ever "being on the wrong magnification". With FFP a mil is a mil period.
Most of the time mirage is to bad to ever run the optic at max magnification and in a match situation the last thing I want to throw into the mix is another equation to figure out in my head with running my optic on half magnification. With FFP you dial up as high as you can go before the mirage takes over and you good to go.
As others have said, I will never go back to SFP
My thought on it a couple years ago was by going all FFP I could eliminate the possibility of ever "being on the wrong magnification". With FFP a mil is a mil period.
Most of the time mirage is to bad to ever run the optic at max magnification and in a match situation the last thing I want to throw into the mix is another equation to figure out in my head with running my optic on half magnification. With FFP you dial up as high as you can go before the mirage takes over and you good to go.
As others have said, I will never go back to SFP
Re: For those of you with FFP...
Never having to wonder if your math is right no matter what mag you are on for wind holds, elevation holdovers and ranging (least of my worries) is priceless.
FFP or fixed is all I will ever use (until a USO dials in their dual focal plane reticles on the big scopes-the thought of an MPR reticle with a fine crosshair aiming point gets me thick!).
Never having to wonder if your math is right no matter what mag you are on for wind holds, elevation holdovers and ranging (least of my worries) is priceless.
FFP or fixed is all I will ever use (until a USO dials in their dual focal plane reticles on the big scopes-the thought of an MPR reticle with a fine crosshair aiming point gets me thick!).
Re: For those of you with FFP...
I put forward this idea some years back. I want a scope with the very center cross a SFP so it never changes width and the rest of the cross hair outside that is in the FFP to range and hold with.
I put forward this idea some years back. I want a scope with the very center cross a SFP so it never changes width and the rest of the cross hair outside that is in the FFP to range and hold with.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I put forward this idea some years back. I want a scope with the very center cross a SFP so it never changes width and the rest of the cross hair outside that is in the FFP to range and hold with. </div></div>
Interesting idea..sounds like a winner to me. You should team up with a japanese scope manufacturer to design this. You'd have to buy a ton of them though.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I put forward this idea some years back. I want a scope with the very center cross a SFP so it never changes width and the rest of the cross hair outside that is in the FFP to range and hold with. </div></div>
Interesting idea..sounds like a winner to me. You should team up with a japanese scope manufacturer to design this. You'd have to buy a ton of them though.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wvlapua</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I put forward this idea some years back. I want a scope with the very center cross a SFP so it never changes width and the rest of the cross hair outside that is in the FFP to range and hold with. </div></div>
Interesting idea..sounds like a winner to me. You should team up with a japanese scope manufacturer to design this. You'd have to buy a ton of them though.
</div></div>
You all been sleepin or what? US Optics has a 1.5-6 SN4 that's DFP, and SN3's are in the works.
Rafael has been working on it with manufacturers with hide presence and input for a while now...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wvlapua</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I put forward this idea some years back. I want a scope with the very center cross a SFP so it never changes width and the rest of the cross hair outside that is in the FFP to range and hold with. </div></div>
Interesting idea..sounds like a winner to me. You should team up with a japanese scope manufacturer to design this. You'd have to buy a ton of them though.
</div></div>
You all been sleepin or what? US Optics has a 1.5-6 SN4 that's DFP, and SN3's are in the works.
Rafael has been working on it with manufacturers with hide presence and input for a while now...
Re: For those of you with FFP...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Varmint Slayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recondo84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and it was the lower setting on the FFP I read about. It says at the lower settings the rectical sometimes can't be seen at all depending on the back ground.</div></div>
That is true and I have had situations where this happens but it is a rare occasion for me. Can be easily corrected with just turning up the power a bit if the situation allows it.
Also agree with JSF above. Good out weighs the bad. </div></div>
I nave a Votex 4-16X50 PST. My only complaint is that the fine reticle is barely usable at 4X. But increasing the power to 5X solves the problem.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Varmint Slayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recondo84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and it was the lower setting on the FFP I read about. It says at the lower settings the rectical sometimes can't be seen at all depending on the back ground.</div></div>
That is true and I have had situations where this happens but it is a rare occasion for me. Can be easily corrected with just turning up the power a bit if the situation allows it.
Also agree with JSF above. Good out weighs the bad. </div></div>
I nave a Votex 4-16X50 PST. My only complaint is that the fine reticle is barely usable at 4X. But increasing the power to 5X solves the problem.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
It's just one less thing to think about, and for me, that makes it worth it.
It's just one less thing to think about, and for me, that makes it worth it.
Re: For those of you with FFP...
Pretty much everything FFP vs SFP has been touched on already in this thread but here's some things to think about.
Since most crosshairs or dots on a FFP scope are in the neighborhood of .05 mil then that means the reticle is only covering 1.8" at 1000Y. So unless your name happens to be Tom Sarver I doubt you or 99.9% of the shooters on the Hide could consistently hold 1.8" at 1000Y. Even if you could, can your rifle shoot 1/8th? Can you estimate wind down to 1/8th? In the real world most of us would be holding off with the reticle to compensate for wind and be very happy to hit 1 moa steels.
Another point is how often do folks use there FFP or SFP precision tactical scope on it's lowest mag? I'd say hardly ever and if they are it's for a large target which is up very close like coyotes, big game, etc. I don't know about you guys but I don't need to see the finest detail on the reticle to make an easy kill shot on "anything" filling up half of the field of view of the scope.
One of my gripes in life is FFP scopes without 10Y parallax. Even so I can see the center dot at 3.5X on my HDMR scope and hit a 1/4" dot at 25Y with the 50Y parallax making the scope slightly blurry.
The few SFP scopes I have left are for very specific purposes on rifles that are used for inside 100Y. All the rest are FFP even on both my precision 22's.
Pretty much everything FFP vs SFP has been touched on already in this thread but here's some things to think about.
Since most crosshairs or dots on a FFP scope are in the neighborhood of .05 mil then that means the reticle is only covering 1.8" at 1000Y. So unless your name happens to be Tom Sarver I doubt you or 99.9% of the shooters on the Hide could consistently hold 1.8" at 1000Y. Even if you could, can your rifle shoot 1/8th? Can you estimate wind down to 1/8th? In the real world most of us would be holding off with the reticle to compensate for wind and be very happy to hit 1 moa steels.
Another point is how often do folks use there FFP or SFP precision tactical scope on it's lowest mag? I'd say hardly ever and if they are it's for a large target which is up very close like coyotes, big game, etc. I don't know about you guys but I don't need to see the finest detail on the reticle to make an easy kill shot on "anything" filling up half of the field of view of the scope.
One of my gripes in life is FFP scopes without 10Y parallax. Even so I can see the center dot at 3.5X on my HDMR scope and hit a 1/4" dot at 25Y with the 50Y parallax making the scope slightly blurry.
The few SFP scopes I have left are for very specific purposes on rifles that are used for inside 100Y. All the rest are FFP even on both my precision 22's.
