AR 10 VS M1A EBR

[EricCartmann]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

I normally get into AR10 vs. M14 Discussions at least 3 times a year. I guess it's a slow year? Anyways, AR10 all day long.

1) Armalite AR10's come with a Scope mount included:
This is huge! A quality scope mount on a M14 will cost you about $200, and even if you do get a mount, they come loose quite often. A M14 receiver tries to twist it off. AR10, the mount can't come loose (because it's part of the upper receiver). Another problem you will find with a scoped M14 is cheekweld, actually it's more of a shoulderweld.

2) Bolt swap on an AR10 is easy:
On an AR10, just crack her open and put in the new bolt. With M14's, a bolt swap is a complicated process. Once you put in your new M14bolt, you have to lap the bolt and time the barrel to get that "magic headspace". If you have a Smith do it, he will charge you a pretty penny.

3) Barrel Swap is easy on AR10:
With an AR10, all you do is unscrew the old barrel, and screw in new barrel. No magic headspace needed. The barrels come pre-headspace from the factory. With M1A's, you have to find the "magic headspace" after you install a new barrel by timing the barrel and lapping the bolt.

4) Better Parts availability for AR10:
You can get everything for an AR10 directly from the manufacturer if you have to. With M14's, parts are not evn available from the Mfgr, and on top of that, surplus USGI parts are not really easily available anymore. Extractors, bolts, BCG, buffers, are easy to get for the AR10.

5) Better Aftermarket accessories for AR10:
For AR10s. the choices for triggers, stocks, and forends is endless. How about a nice trick barrel for an AR10? Yep, your choice. Noveske, White Oak, Schillen, etc, and you can install the barrel yourself without trying to figure out the magic headspace. Also, try getting a nice trigger for an M1A, tell me how that works out for you.

6) AR10 has the better chassis:
Reason AR10 has a better chassis is because it does not have one! It has an upper and lower, and with the correct forend/rails, you can easily FF the barrel assembly. A quality Chassis for the M1A will run you about $700.

7) AR10's are inherently more accurate:
AR style locking lugs and naturally FF barrel, you will find that it takes a lot less work to make an AR10 accurate.

8) AR10's are easy to Smith:
You can do everything on the AR10 yourself. Bolt swap, barrel swap, extractor swap, etc. No "magic headspace needed". If an AR10 does go down, they are easy to get back up. Lots of little parts on the M14 that can fail, and when they do, it's not easy to replace them and get the gun working again.

9) AR10's look better.
This should be #1. Looks matter! Looks are everything.

The Cartmann .308 Family:

 

[jakerz3]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

^^and when a 30 cal won't cut it, always and I mean always have a samurai sword as a backup. Nice lineup btw.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

Amazing... Neither of you actually read the thread... Lol

 

[salmonaxe]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

Sure is summer in here.

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Amazing... Neither of you actually read the thread... LolmaA </div></div>

I only read the original post

 

[-Nick-]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Amazing... Neither of you actually read the thread... LolmaA </div></div>

I only read the original post

</div></div>

Lol... go and read just the first 2 pages. It's filled with win, humor, and insanity. A real feel good summer blockbuster...

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Amazing... Neither of you actually read the thread... LolmaA </div></div>

I only read the original post

</div></div>

Lol... go and read just the first 2 pages. It's filled with win, humor, and insanity. A real feel good summer blockbuster... </div></div>

Holy cow! This's is awesome LOL

 

[BigEd73]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

I think the AR-10 simply has more modern technology then the M1, and comparing them with cost to performance. The AR-10 just plows ahead of the M1 in accuracy, and serviceability.

My choice LaRue OBR!

 

[jakerz3]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Amazing... Neither of you actually read the thread... Lol </div></div>

I've been keeping up with this thread from day one. Doesn't change the fact that he has a nice set of rifles.... and a backup sword. lol

 

[regatoni5]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: victory</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This flow chart should help the OP

</div></div>

FOR THE WIN!

 

[Shamus]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

I have experience with both the M110 SASS and the M14EBR in afghanistan. Hands down M110 (or AR10). My biggest complaint of the EBR is the chassis. It is not practical to employ a weapon that cannot be disassembled by anyone not armorer qualified (in the army at least). As for the sport shooting side of it, a weapon that loses its zero everytime you take it apart to clean it is impractical. Its also a pretty heavy rifle in comparison to the AR10.
The AR10 offers a practical design, most high end rifles offer sub 1MOA accuracy, and no loss of zero when disassembled. With the aftermarket offered for the AR15/10 systems its hard to go wrong.

 

[MLC]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

When clearing rooms I find a shorter rifle like the LaRue OBR is better as when it is slung properly I can carry a La-Z-Boy by myself, but with a longer rifle like an M1A I can only manage side/coffee tables or one end of a couch.

 

[jbmillard]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

I have had both and switched to the AR-10(T) (sold my M1A)

1) My AR-10(T) is more accurate than the M1A, but it's probably not fair to compare a 10(T) with a standard M1A.

2) Scope mounts being included made it much easier/cheaper to mount.

3) My op rod broke on my M1A. I know it can happen, but I didn't like the three weeks of down time from SA. They wouldn't sell me one and let me do it (maybe it has to be fitted) but I like being able to do anything I need to do on my AR-10.

Brad

 

[bobbyfairbanks]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I normally get into AR10 vs. M14 Discussions at least 3 times a year. I guess it's a slow year? Anyways, AR10 all day long.

1) Armalite AR10's come with a Scope mount included:
This is huge! A quality scope mount on a M14 will cost you about $200, and even if you do get a mount, they come loose quite often. A M14 receiver tries to twist it off. AR10, the mount can't come loose (because it's part of the upper receiver). Another problem you will find with a scoped M14 is cheekweld, actually it's more of a shoulderweld.

2) Bolt swap on an AR10 is easy:
On an AR10, just crack her open and put in the new bolt. With M14's, a bolt swap is a complicated process. Once you put in your new M14bolt, you have to lap the bolt and time the barrel to get that "magic headspace". If you have a Smith do it, he will charge you a pretty penny.

3) Barrel Swap is easy on AR10:
With an AR10, all you do is unscrew the old barrel, and screw in new barrel. No magic headspace needed. The barrels come pre-headspace from the factory. With M1A's, you have to find the "magic headspace" after you install a new barrel by timing the barrel and lapping the bolt.

4) Better Parts availability for AR10:
You can get everything for an AR10 directly from the manufacturer if you have to. With M14's, parts are not evn available from the Mfgr, and on top of that, surplus USGI parts are not really easily available anymore. Extractors, bolts, BCG, buffers, are easy to get for the AR10.

5) Better Aftermarket accessories for AR10:
For AR10s. the choices for triggers, stocks, and forends is endless. How about a nice trick barrel for an AR10? Yep, your choice. Noveske, White Oak, Schillen, etc, and you can install the barrel yourself without trying to figure out the magic headspace. Also, try getting a nice trigger for an M1A, tell me how that works out for you.

6) AR10 has the better chassis:
Reason AR10 has a better chassis is because it does not have one! It has an upper and lower, and with the correct forend/rails, you can easily FF the barrel assembly. A quality Chassis for the M1A will run you about $700.

7) AR10's are inherently more accurate:
AR style locking lugs and naturally FF barrel, you will find that it takes a lot less work to make an AR10 accurate.

8) AR10's are easy to Smith:
You can do everything on the AR10 yourself. Bolt swap, barrel swap, extractor swap, etc. No "magic headspace needed". If an AR10 does go down, they are easy to get back up. Lots of little parts on the M14 that can fail, and when they do, it's not easy to replace them and get the gun working again.

9) AR10's look better.
This should be #1. Looks matter! Looks are everything.

The Cartmann .308 Family:

</div></div>

A sword! No self respecting man buys one or puts it on display next to rifles. I am embarrassed for you!

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bobbyfairbanks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

A sword! No self respecting man buys one or puts it on display next to rifles. I am embarrassed for you! </div></div>

Thing is anyone can use a calculator. Can you do the math in your head?

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

After reading the first couple pages... I think this OP just finished reading "the red circle" by Webb, judging from the out takes present in his comments and come backs.

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After reading the first couple pages... I think this OP just finished reading "the red circle" by Webb, judging from the out takes present in his comments and come backs. </div></div>

That might be, and good for him for pulling a fast one on us.. However, there are a lot of "Operators" on the web though. Heck, I met some real "Operators" in real life too! hahahaha

 

[DavidAR10]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I normally get into AR10 vs. M14 Discussions at least 3 times a year. I guess it's a slow year? Anyways, AR10 all day long.

1) Armalite AR10's come with a Scope mount included:
This is huge! A quality scope mount on a M14 will cost you about $200, and even if you do get a mount, they come loose quite often. A M14 receiver tries to twist it off. AR10, the mount can't come loose (because it's part of the upper receiver). Another problem you will find with a scoped M14 is cheekweld, actually it's more of a shoulderweld.

2) Bolt swap on an AR10 is easy:
On an AR10, just crack her open and put in the new bolt. With M14's, a bolt swap is a complicated process. Once you put in your new M14bolt, you have to lap the bolt and time the barrel to get that "magic headspace". If you have a Smith do it, he will charge you a pretty penny.

3) Barrel Swap is easy on AR10:
With an AR10, all you do is unscrew the old barrel, and screw in new barrel. No magic headspace needed. The barrels come pre-headspace from the factory. With M1A's, you have to find the "magic headspace" after you install a new barrel by timing the barrel and lapping the bolt.

4) Better Parts availability for AR10:
You can get everything for an AR10 directly from the manufacturer if you have to. With M14's, parts are not evn available from the Mfgr, and on top of that, surplus USGI parts are not really easily available anymore. Extractors, bolts, BCG, buffers, are easy to get for the AR10.

5) Better Aftermarket accessories for AR10:
For AR10s. the choices for triggers, stocks, and forends is endless. How about a nice trick barrel for an AR10? Yep, your choice. Noveske, White Oak, Schillen, etc, and you can install the barrel yourself without trying to figure out the magic headspace. Also, try getting a nice trigger for an M1A, tell me how that works out for you.

6) AR10 has the better chassis:
Reason AR10 has a better chassis is because it does not have one! It has an upper and lower, and with the correct forend/rails, you can easily FF the barrel assembly. A quality Chassis for the M1A will run you about $700.

7) AR10's are inherently more accurate:
AR style locking lugs and naturally FF barrel, you will find that it takes a lot less work to make an AR10 accurate.

8) AR10's are easy to Smith:
You can do everything on the AR10 yourself. Bolt swap, barrel swap, extractor swap, etc. No "magic headspace needed". If an AR10 does go down, they are easy to get back up. Lots of little parts on the M14 that can fail, and when they do, it's not easy to replace them and get the gun working again.

9) AR10's look better.
This should be #1. Looks matter! Looks are everything.

The Cartmann .308 Family:

</div></div>

Yes, but there’s just something about him. Something around his couch, I don’t know, reminds me of… me. No. I’m sure of it, I hate him.

 

[NoExpert]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

Actually I'm more worried about the Raider logos and Hello Kitty stuff going one and him having that many guns, and a sword... seems, well, unstable.

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NoExpert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually I'm more worried about the Raider logos and Hello Kitty stuff going one and him having that many guns, and a sword... seems, well, unstable. </div></div>

The Hello Kitty logo is like a "white flag", I come in peace.

The Raiders logo is because "commitment to excellence"

The sword is because any idiot can shoot a gun and shoot it well.. but not too many people know how to use a sword.

 

[Grump]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: koz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stu2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Koz- Who says?

Can you state a case study that proves that as fact or is it your opinion. I seem to recall the AR platform having problems in Vietnam and in the desert. The funny thing is they need to be kept pretty clean to work well. For the desert enviroments they had to change to dry lube. Dry lube is OK but the gun was designed with oil in mind. IMO "wet" lubricants perform better. Now, a piston AR vs a gas impingement type might be better. The M1A of course has the piston type already. It's funny to watch the AR industry shift back to the piston again. I havn't seen too many piston AR10s yet. Supposedly, they are less accurate according to this FA Article. But, everything has a trade off. </div></div>

Not my opinion, real #'s. The AR DI platforms were just as reliable as the piston AR's (These are all 7.62 platforms). As far as accuracy - they're all (piston and DI AR's) more accurate than the M1A. The LWRC, POF and HK417 are all accurate rifles. That's all I will say about it.

I'm not saying the M1A is a bad weapon, there are just better ones out there. The AR platforms have been updated, the M1A's really haven't. You can't compare the Vietnam weapons to anything now. </div></div>
Koz:

Stu2 asked for citation to authority and all you posted was a bare assertion regarding 'real numbers'.

I call that a fail and call again for something from a study or report, preferably with quantification since YOU said something about numbers. Would it be fair to expect a MTBF figure for each weapon?

Me, I can offer only this anecdote:

My father was M1 Garand in the Marine Corps, then Garand again as a guard at, ahem, nuclear and nuke-related facilities for the rest of his career. His first-had report to me was that the M14s that came later were more reliable than the Garands, and that the M16s were even more reliable, slightly, than the M14s. Desert conditions, training that got more and more extensive, and both high-round count "range" rifles and the ones which were more issued and getting lighter use. Blank fire excepted, as the ammo left lots of filthy fouling.

Don't remember whether they had A1s before the A2s. They definitely had A2s by the time he retired.

Sorry I cannot quantify it.

Do not know whether that translates to the large-frame ARs. Some things I have merely heard about M110s or whatever in the earlier days of Afghanistan made me wonder about that...

 

[deltablack]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: koz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stu2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Koz- Who says?

Can you state a case study that proves that as fact or is it your opinion. I seem to recall the AR platform having problems in Vietnam and in the desert. The funny thing is they need to be kept pretty clean to work well. For the desert enviroments they had to change to dry lube. Dry lube is OK but the gun was designed with oil in mind. IMO "wet" lubricants perform better. Now, a piston AR vs a gas impingement type might be better. The M1A of course has the piston type already. It's funny to watch the AR industry shift back to the piston again. I havn't seen too many piston AR10s yet. Supposedly, they are less accurate according to this FA Article. But, everything has a trade off. </div></div>

Not my opinion, real #'s. The AR DI platforms were just as reliable as the piston AR's (These are all 7.62 platforms). As far as accuracy - they're all (piston and DI AR's) more accurate than the M1A. The LWRC, POF and HK417 are all accurate rifles. That's all I will say about it.

I'm not saying the M1A is a bad weapon, there are just better ones out there. The AR platforms have been updated, the M1A's really haven't. You can't compare the Vietnam weapons to anything now. </div></div>

Yep, we're gonna need some solid facts here. If there are real #'s I'd love to see them.

Also for the price of those piston ARs you could get a sub moa M1A and your M1A wouldn't have expensive proprietary gas system parts.

Not saying M1As are better, but they have advantages. There's no need to be a fanboy.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

And we've now turned back to DI vs. Piston... Must... not... die... keep.... ALLLLLIIIIIIIVVVVVVEEEEEEE.....

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deltablack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: koz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stu2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Koz- Who says?

Can you state a case study that proves that as fact or is it your opinion. I seem to recall the AR platform having problems in Vietnam and in the desert. The funny thing is they need to be kept pretty clean to work well. For the desert enviroments they had to change to dry lube. Dry lube is OK but the gun was designed with oil in mind. IMO "wet" lubricants perform better. Now, a piston AR vs a gas impingement type might be better. The M1A of course has the piston type already. It's funny to watch the AR industry shift back to the piston again. I havn't seen too many piston AR10s yet. Supposedly, they are less accurate according to this FA Article. But, everything has a trade off. </div></div>

Not my opinion, real #'s. The AR DI platforms were just as reliable as the piston AR's (These are all 7.62 platforms). As far as accuracy - they're all (piston and DI AR's) more accurate than the M1A. The LWRC, POF and HK417 are all accurate rifles. That's all I will say about it.

I'm not saying the M1A is a bad weapon, there are just better ones out there. The AR platforms have been updated, the M1A's really haven't. You can't compare the Vietnam weapons to anything now. </div></div>

Yep, we're gonna need some solid facts here. If there are real #'s I'd love to see them.

Also for the price of those piston ARs you could get a sub moa M1A and your M1A wouldn't have expensive proprietary gas system parts.

Not saying M1As are better, but they have advantages. There's no need to be a fanboy. </div></div>

What solid facts are you looking for?

 

[Chiller]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

I always am late to the party......

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

which platform is better suited to run a roedale muzzle brake on?........discuss

 

[NoExpert]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NoExpert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually I'm more worried about the Raider logos and Hello Kitty stuff going one and him having that many guns, and a sword... seems, well, unstable. </div></div>

The Hello Kitty logo is like a "white flag", I come in peace.

The Raiders logo is because "commitment to excellence"

The sword is because any idiot can shoot a gun and shoot it well.. but not too many people know how to use a sword.
</div></div>

Okay, now I feel a little better. I've seen some really crazy Japanese with Hello Kitty stuff and really crazy less than desirable Raiders fans (I'm in So. CA so that should sum that up).

Actually the sword, along with being able to use it, is great. Most people have an awesome sword and it sits on top of the TV or some shelf with no clue how to use it.

 

[Chiller]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VJJPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">which platform is better suited to run a roedale muzzle brake on?........discuss </div></div>

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PDXEgBh0TF0"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PDXEgBh0TF0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 

[Guest]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

Yet again,... the hide shows it's ability to find a solution,... to a fairy tale problem that never warranted/needed an answer in the first place. This type of thread does bring out answers about some that were in question prior to, though.

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I normally get into AR10 vs. M14 Discussions at least 3 times a year. I guess it's a slow year? Anyways, AR10 all day long.

1) Armalite AR10's come with a Scope mount included:
This is huge! A quality scope mount on a M14 will cost you about $200, and even if you do get a mount, they come loose quite often. A M14 receiver tries to twist it off. AR10, the mount can't come loose (because it's part of the upper receiver). Another problem you will find with a scoped M14 is cheekweld, actually it's more of a shoulderweld.

2) Bolt swap on an AR10 is easy:
On an AR10, just crack her open and put in the new bolt. With M14's, a bolt swap is a complicated process. Once you put in your new M14bolt, you have to lap the bolt and time the barrel to get that "magic headspace". If you have a Smith do it, he will charge you a pretty penny.

3) Barrel Swap is easy on AR10:
With an AR10, all you do is unscrew the old barrel, and screw in new barrel. No magic headspace needed. The barrels come pre-headspace from the factory. With M1A's, you have to find the "magic headspace" after you install a new barrel by timing the barrel and lapping the bolt.

4) Better Parts availability for AR10:
You can get everything for an AR10 directly from the manufacturer if you have to. With M14's, parts are not evn available from the Mfgr, and on top of that, surplus USGI parts are not really easily available anymore. Extractors, bolts, BCG, buffers, are easy to get for the AR10.

5) Better Aftermarket accessories for AR10:
For AR10s. the choices for triggers, stocks, and forends is endless. How about a nice trick barrel for an AR10? Yep, your choice. Noveske, White Oak, Schillen, etc, and you can install the barrel yourself without trying to figure out the magic headspace. Also, try getting a nice trigger for an M1A, tell me how that works out for you.

6) AR10 has the better chassis:
Reason AR10 has a better chassis is because it does not have one! It has an upper and lower, and with the correct forend/rails, you can easily FF the barrel assembly. A quality Chassis for the M1A will run you about $700.

7) AR10's are inherently more accurate:
AR style locking lugs and naturally FF barrel, you will find that it takes a lot less work to make an AR10 accurate.

8) AR10's are easy to Smith:
You can do everything on the AR10 yourself. Bolt swap, barrel swap, extractor swap, etc. No "magic headspace needed". If an AR10 does go down, they are easy to get back up. Lots of little parts on the M14 that can fail, and when they do, it's not easy to replace them and get the gun working again.

9) AR10's look better.
This should be #1. Looks matter! Looks are everything.

The Cartmann .308 Family:

</div></div>


Adding to my awesome list.


10) AR10's does not beat up brass as much as an M14:
The AR10 can easily get 10 reloads from one case (LC case). The M14 beats up brass so much that you would be lucky to get 5 reloads. #10 is really for reloaders only. I know all you Operators are too busy training and do not have to reload.

11) AR10's can handle hot rounds better
Hot rounds are not a problem with the AR10, the AR10 laughs at hot rounds. With M14, all it takes one hot round and say hello to Mr. Bent Oprod. A bent oprod on a M14 will turn your M14 into a club. USGI Oprods for M14's are no longer available, and even the cheap ones go for about $200. M118LR was actually loaded lighter because all the combat M14's were getting beat up.

 

[deltablack]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: koz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In real torture/reliability testing, the AR (M110K, POF, OBR, HK417, & JP) platforms far exceeded the M1A (M14) platforms in durability, reliability and accuracy. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What solid facts are you looking for?</div></div>

Torture tests would be a start. I know quality DI AR-15s have been run for over 1k rounds completely degreased before failure to go into battery. Then some have been run for thousands with oil and no cleaning. I'd like to know how these translate to the 308 platform.

Second would be the feeding issues that they can have. I understand that early models were prone to double feed. I have heard these issues are better, but in contrast if someone were to exclusively shoot a M1A they'd probably ask, "WTF is a double feed?"

I understand the AR-10 has advantages, but I did do my homework before choosing the M1A. Standard parts between rifles and a longer track record.

 

[deltablack]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't want to hurt anyone's feelers but...if the M1A really were 'that great' it would have been adopted en masse as a service rifle not only by the US but by our allies as well. Instead they went with the FN-FAL and HK pattern rifles. And yes, when they chose those rifles they did test the M1A as well.

The only country that concluded the M1A was better than those other rifles was the US...and we only used it as a general issue rifle for a short while.

It's a good rifle...but to say it's 'the best' is a stretch.</div></div>

It's a starting point, but a government's choice is usually more motivated by cost. Not really the best way to judge a rifle.

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deltablack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: koz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In real torture/reliability testing, the AR (M110K, POF, OBR, HK417, & JP) platforms far exceeded the M1A (M14) platforms in durability, reliability and accuracy. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What solid facts are you looking for?</div></div>

Torture tests would be a start. I know quality DI AR-15s have been run for over 1k rounds completely degreased before failure to go into battery. Then some have been run for thousands with oil and no cleaning. I'd like to know how these translate to the 308 platform.

Second would be the feeding issues that they can have. I understand that early models were prone to double feed. I have heard these issues are better, but in contrast if someone were to exclusively shoot a M1A they'd probably ask, "WTF is a double feed?"

I understand the AR-10 has advantages, but I did do my homework before choosing the M1A. Standard parts between rifles and a longer track record. </div></div>

One torture test is shooting hot rounds. Fire a mag of old school M118LR and you will see the M14 becomes inoperable.

 

[BCP]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deltablack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It's a starting point, but a government's choice is usually more motivated by cost. Not really the best way to judge a rifle.
</div></div>

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are cheap examples and then there are super-spendy examples of that argument.

 

[lord of war619]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deltablack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: koz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In real torture/reliability testing, the AR (M110K, POF, OBR, HK417, & JP) platforms far exceeded the M1A (M14) platforms in durability, reliability and accuracy. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What solid facts are you looking for?</div></div>

Torture tests would be a start. I know quality DI AR-15s have been run for over 1k rounds completely degreased before failure to go into battery. Then some have been run for thousands with oil and no cleaning. I'd like to know how these translate to the 308 platform.

Second would be the feeding issues that they can have. I understand that early models were prone to double feed. I have heard these issues are better, but in contrast if someone were to exclusively shoot a M1A they'd probably ask, "WTF is a double feed?"

I understand the AR-10 has advantages, but I did do my homework before choosing the M1A. Standard parts between rifles and a longer track record. </div></div>

One torture test is shooting hot rounds. Fire a mag of old school M118LR and you will see the M14 becomes inoperable. </div></div>
I have to disagree with this statement my Smith Ent MK14 MOd 0 with SEI Medium barrel will eat m118lr all day

 

[Grump]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deltablack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: koz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stu2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Koz- Who says?

Can you state a case study that proves that as fact or is it your opinion. I seem to recall the AR platform having problems in Vietnam and in the desert. The funny thing is they need to be kept pretty clean to work well. For the desert enviroments they had to change to dry lube. Dry lube is OK but the gun was designed with oil in mind. IMO "wet" lubricants perform better. Now, a piston AR vs a gas impingement type might be better. The M1A of course has the piston type already. It's funny to watch the AR industry shift back to the piston again. I havn't seen too many piston AR10s yet. Supposedly, they are less accurate according to this FA Article. But, everything has a trade off. </div></div>

Not my opinion, real #'s. The AR DI platforms were just as reliable as the piston AR's (These are all 7.62 platforms). As far as accuracy - they're all (piston and DI AR's) more accurate than the M1A. The LWRC, POF and HK417 are all accurate rifles. That's all I will say about it.

I'm not saying the M1A is a bad weapon, there are just better ones out there. The AR platforms have been updated, the M1A's really haven't. You can't compare the Vietnam weapons to anything now. </div></div>

Yep, we're gonna need some solid facts here. If there are real #'s I'd love to see them.

Also for the price of those piston ARs you could get a sub moa M1A and your M1A wouldn't have expensive proprietary gas system parts.

Not saying M1As are better, but they have advantages. There's no need to be a fanboy. </div></div>

What solid facts are you looking for? </div></div>

How about the numbers of rifles A vs. B sampled;

The conditions of use and maintenance;

The ammunition types used;

The number of rounds fired during the test or study or whatever; AND

The number AND type of failures to function experienced with each type of rifle?

I'd like to see this for the Steyr AUG, too, BTW.

Hope that doesn't strain your analytical functions.

 

[Guest]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

There is more horse shit in this thread that most stalls.
Only way some of us could laugh more, is if some of you were tech writers for the left coast.
The opp rod comment is great, but as one who has shot issued 180 an 200 gr .308 Winchester Silver Tip (red an yellow) box thru a issued TRW M14, my results were somewhat different. Then again I know guys that in the heat of things failed to turn off the gas port an chunk-ed a rifle grenade. Their story during the de-brief, it was turned off. The rod broke using ball ammo. OK by me, won't be the first AAR that has a trace of bullshit in it, and damn sure won't be the last.

 

[deltablack]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deltablack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It's a starting point, but a government's choice is usually more motivated by cost. Not really the best way to judge a rifle.
</div></div>

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are cheap examples and then there are super-spendy examples of that argument. </div></div>

If someone is right 50% of the time, I'd say they're unreliable. They usually pick the lowest bidder that meets the requirements. The M14 was chosen over the FAL primarily because they claimed (lied) that they could produce it cheaper.

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

Old school M118LR (before 2003) is what destroyed M14's. It was reloaded to be lighter because of this. Also M118LR is not what it use to be. It is now garbage and shoots about 2" groups. Lithuanian made M80 shoots better groups.

Forget about M118LR, the point is really M14 does not handle hot loads too well, try stressing out your M14 and see what happens.

I do not think any of my 12 points is "horseshit".. if you think so, please explain to me why. I am always open to discuss. Like I said, I get in AR10 vs. M14 discussions at least 3 times a year.. I am expecting this thread to go to 100 pages, and I will have no problems helping it get there.

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

Those who need to read about test results, we'll call them "Person A", instead of going out and experiencing it for themselves... well that should tell you everything right there. "He needs to read about it".

 

[BCP]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

There should be a stickied thread for people to argue about AR vs. M1A vs. AK.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those who need to read about test results </div></div>

When people say that without providing their own 'test results' to back their claim I usually write them off.

 

[BCP]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deltablack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If someone is right 50% of the time, I'd say they're unreliable. They usually pick the lowest bidder that meets the requirements. The M14 was chosen over the FAL primarily because they claimed (lied) that they could produce it cheaper. </div></div>

There are biases towards certain manufacturers as well as the 'not invented here' stigma. TBH I was surprised when they accepted the Beretta 9MM for example.

I see it in all sorts of gov't work. A good one was how the networks that I worked on down at the state building were running networking/word processing/email software that I hadn't seen in the private sector since maybe 1995...I mean there are companies that exist purely because the gov't buys their stuff otherwise nobody would want it.

 

[deltablack]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those who need to read about test results, we'll call them "Person A", instead of going out and experiencing it for themselves... well that should tell you everything right there. "He needs to read about it". </div></div>

Bold, sweeping claims demand statistics and studies. A bunch of anecdotal "evidence" is not data.

This thread is never going to contain a decent scientific comparison, probably because it hasn't been done and there is no data. All we're going to see are opinions and guesses.

I like my M1As and am stoked because I have a bullpup chassis on the way (suck on that AR10), hopefully in the near future I can pick up a decent AR10 and enjoy shooting that too.

 

[deltablack]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deltablack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If someone is right 50% of the time, I'd say they're unreliable. They usually pick the lowest bidder that meets the requirements. The M14 was chosen over the FAL primarily because they claimed (lied) that they could produce it cheaper. </div></div>

There are biases towards certain manufacturers as well as the 'not invented here' stigma. TBH I was surprised when they accepted the Beretta 9MM for example.

I see it in all sorts of gov't work. A good one was how the networks that I worked on down at the state building were running networking/word processing/email software that I hadn't seen in the private sector since maybe 1995...I mean there are companies that exist purely because the gov't buys their stuff otherwise nobody would want it. </div></div>

Yeah, thus my general disdain for the, we've always used this software, this company gives us nice kickbacks, attitude. Bureaucrats just continue to disappoint.

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deltablack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those who need to read about test results, we'll call them "Person A", instead of going out and experiencing it for themselves... well that should tell you everything right there. "He needs to read about it". </div></div>

Bold, sweeping claims demand statistics and studies. A bunch of anecdotal "evidence" is not data.

This thread is never going to contain a decent scientific comparison, probably because it hasn't been done and there is no data. All we're going to see are opinions and guesses.

I like my M1As and am stoked because I have a bullpup chassis on the way (suck on that AR10), hopefully in the near future I can pick up a decent AR10 and enjoy shooting that too. </div></div>


What the hell is this? Nuclear Fission? These are guns man! Not that complicated. The AR15 has been in service for 50+ years now. The AR10 is no different than an AR15 other than it's a bigger caliber.

I started out life as an M14 fanboi, only reason I got an AR10 (back in 2007) was because I wanted a handy offhand hunting rifle that was easy to scope. Little did I know, I would pick up another AR10, and become an AR10 fanboi.

I own 2 M14's, one of them I made an EBR, both are great shooters.. however, one day I grew up and got an AR10. Hard to go back to your childhood when you know things as an adult.

I will go over more reasons why the M14 is obsolete:

- funky oprod design, one hot round and say hi to a bent oprod and bye bye to your $1800 M1A. It is a known fact that the the M14 does not like hot rounds and you should use underpower loads to protect the fragile parts such as the oprod.

- funky way to secure the oprod to the reciever. see that little notch where the oprod slides into the reciever? the rifle is dependent on this tab on the oprod for the whole operation of the rifle. if the tab were to wear out it's bye bye rifle.

- funky bolt design. See that little roller on the bolt? Another useless invention that the Garand does not have. If that roller breaks, it is impossible to replace.

- funky extractor: See that the extractor and the way it is secured? Yes the extractor can jump out of the bolt.

- hard to manufacture. Look at all the little parts and specialty parts. You price all the little parts at Smith Enterprise lately?

- spare parts non existent. You can't even find M14 parts anymore. These days bolts go for $200 if you can find it! You basically can get an entire FAL parts kit with barrel, stock and all for about $300.

- not easy to scope, every scope mounting technique is a micky mouse job. The M1A seems to just want to twist the mount off. Also have you seen the price for those ugly Smith mounts? $300! Crazy I tell you, it is like you are paying a tax stamp for the right to scope. The others are easy to scope. AR-10's comes with a flat top. FAL's has the DSA mounts that slide in and stay put.

- hard to service. need a smith just to change the barrel. If you have a new bolt, you just can't just slap here in like an AR, you have to lap and headspace the thing. AR barrels you can replace yourself with a $20 AR wrench, and no magic headspacing necessary.

- cheek weld is non-existence if you run a scope and standard stock.

- stock has no bedding. It is no secret it takes about 40 rounds for the M1A action to settle into a USGI stock. Wood stocks settle in faster, but then it's wood.

- no pistol grip. There is a reason why every modern rifle has a pistol grip.


I myself am not a machinist or a manufacturer, but my next door neighbor is. He does not know anything about guns, but he knows a lot about machining. I take him shooting a lot and afterwards we will clean my weapons together. He indicated the M14/M1A must be a nightmare to manufacturer and nightmare to support. He also commented on the oprod notch and the roller on the bolt too.

Then he commented on the AR and was amazed at the simplicity of the AR and how simple the machined parts were easy to make, it uses standard size springs and drift pins. He told me the AR probably only took about $100 to make while the M14 probably took about $1000 to make. No wonder M1A's are now made in Brazil!

I own two M14's and afraid to really abuse them because I don't have spares, such as a USGI TRW bolt, USGI SA oprod, and USGI trigger. If you have USGI parts hold on to them. If you don't have spares or a spare M1A, then I would hold off on abusing your M14. An M14 is just like a M1903, it is a thing of beauty and an American Icon, and just like a M1903 it is a relic and a thing of the past. You can love your rifle all you want, but lets accept the facts.

AR-10's are boring. You buy them and they shoot MOA right out of the box. No gathering of Holy USGI parts and no hocus pocus cryogentics treatment. M1A's/M14's are much more fun, you get the fun of spending 2 years putting them together just to be only as accurate as an AR-10 out of the box.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FOA Team XI</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

FOA Team XI conducted the EBR14 operational assessment with Soldiers operating in and around multiple locations in Afghanistan from 5 December 2008 through 1 January 2009. This assessment is not to be construed as the United States Army Test and Evaluation Command (USATEC) system evaluation report for the EBR14. Per direction of the Army Evaluation Center, surveys were also collected on the legacy M14.

33 EBR users, 6 legacy users.

Able Main, Sery Base, FOB Boris, FOB Curry, FOB Fenty, OP Hatchet, OP Honaker-Miracle, COP Joyce, COP Keating, COP Lowell, FOB Monti, FOB Orgun-E, FOB Salerno, and COP Zerok

• Maintenance and disassembly
• Bipod legs and taking the weapon apart
• Maintenance
• Heavy and not as accurate as the M24
• Difficult maintenance
• Scope Mount
• Weight, no operators tools came with the rifle for assembly/disassembly, no one in theater is qualified to perform higher level maintenance, the scope mounts are weak and cause you to lose zero.
• The fact that I can’t clean it unless I remove the scope and disassemble the weapon. After removing a scope mount I am supposed to verify my zero by shooting. After shooting I am supposed to clean my weapon. It’s a never ending cycle with this inferior Sage stock system.
• Weight – 4 responses
• Close quarters and disassembly of the weapon. It’s good to have an Allen Key in your cleaning kit to tighten the nuts. On average it takes 5-10 minutes to completely disassemble the weapon.
• Taking it apart
• Hard to break down
• Hard to clean
• Side rail mounts loosen up too easily
• Bipod legs fall apart easily
• Weight
• The magazine can be difficult to load at times, causing a miss-feed with the weapon
• Loses zero frequently, too many moving parts on the stock, magazines have issues being locked in quickly, failure to feed/extract with the smallest amount of dust, extremely painful to break down to clean, no adapter for a silencer, scope mount comes loose on patrols.
• The length makes covering this terrain a little more difficult.
• Not being a sub MOA rifles makes it less accurate than it should be. The weight is hugely increased from the original M14 and that makes a big difference in Afghanistan's rugged terrain and high altitude. The mounting bracket for the scope only attaches to the left side of the weapon, which allows for scope twist whenever it is pushed against. The extremely long barrel makes it difficult to move around in this terrain and nearly useless in MOUT/CQB environment.
• Weight, sight acquisition time, difficulty to clean or repair
• Close quarters and weight in the EBR stock
• It is too much of an inconvenience to find Allen keys to remove the rail system so I can perform maintenance.
• Needs to be re-zeroed too much
• Needs to be re-zeroed often
• Make lighter, Issue tools with weapons, issue night sight with gun, issue extra parts to units for fixing the weapon (there are no parts in theater),
• Give it a synthetic stock for ease of takedown, cleaning, weight, balance, and accuracy.
• Use a better stock system
• Redesign so that disassembly is possible without losing zero, different stock system
• The weapon needs to be easier to take apart.
• Exchange the Bipod legs with the ones from the SOFMOD kit
• Make it lighter and more compact – 2 responses
• Different stock; replace the SAGE kit - 2 responses
• Provide a more user friendly stock
• Lighter stock, provide more durable scope dust covers – 3 responses
• Tan colored stock
• Find a simple way to take it apart
• Use a Troy Industry chassis or the McMillan composite stock with built in adjustable cheek piece to upgrade this system. This does away for the need of a side rail mount. Change to a heavier barrel, lighter trigger pull, aftermarket muzzle break or vortex flash suppressor. Stock flash suppressor has a tendency to jump to one side making hard for follow on shots. Have a butt stock that is level with the top rail of the weapon, this will make check to stock well position easier to obtain.
• Night sight
• The safety is in an awkward position (inside the trigger guard), difficult to take off and on safe.
• Sturdier butt stock as the current one seems to come loose easily
• Take away the EBR stock all together. Then original M14 stock was outstanding due to almost no moving pieces, accuracy and easily able to clean the rifle. It makes an effective LRM weapon, but I have doubts of its accuracy and reliability due to how many times I have seen it lose its zero.
• Less weight and better quality of the stock in areas dealing with the Allen screws.
• I would incorporate a more accurate barrel, use a different scope mount that allows the rail system to extend further and would not loosen up as often. Make adjustments to the magazine or magazine well that would allow a more dependable magazine insertion. Make the weapon lighter with a different stock.
• Different style stock and different scope.
• Issue Allen keys to take apart. No one in my unit received any when we were issued our EBR14s. Also sound suppressors would be a great addition to the inventory.
• Find a different way to attach a rail system.
• Better scope
• Put a more effective scope on the rifle

Legacy

M14 is great for flat terrain like Iraq. It doesn't seem very useful to me in a mountainous environment. It’s rare that you see the enemy because of trees and terrain.
• Not good for Close Quarter Combat

</div></div>

 

[deltablack]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What the hell is this? Nuclear Fission? These are guns man! Not that complicated. The AR15 has been in service for 50+ years now. The AR10 is no different than an AR15 other than it's a bigger caliber.

I started out life as an M14 fanboi, only reason I got an AR10 (back in 2007) was because I wanted a handy offhand hunting rifle that was easy to scope. Little did I know, I would pick up another AR10, and become an AR10 fanboi.

I own 2 M14's, one of them I made an EBR, both are great shooters.. however, one day I grew up and got an AR10. Hard to go back to your childhood when you know things as an adult.

I will go over more reasons why the M14 is obsolete:

- funky oprod design, one hot round and say hi to a bent oprod and bye bye to your $1800 M1A. It is a known fact that the the M14 does not like hot rounds and you should use underpower loads to protect the fragile parts such as the oprod.

- funky way to secure the oprod to the reciever. see that little notch where the oprod slides into the reciever? the rifle is dependent on this tab on the oprod for the whole operation of the rifle. if the tab were to wear out it's bye bye rifle.

- funky bolt design. See that little roller on the bolt? Another useless invention that the Garand does not have. If that roller breaks, it is impossible to replace.

- funky extractor: See that the extractor and the way it is secured? Yes the extractor can jump out of the bolt.

- hard to manufacture. Look at all the little parts and specialty parts. You price all the little parts at Smith Enterprise lately?

- spare parts non existent. You can't even find M14 parts anymore. These days bolts go for $200 if you can find it! You basically can get an entire FAL parts kit with barrel, stock and all for about $300.

- not easy to scope, every scope mounting technique is a micky mouse job. The M1A seems to just want to twist the mount off. Also have you seen the price for those ugly Smith mounts? $300! Crazy I tell you, it is like you are paying a tax stamp for the right to scope. The others are easy to scope. AR-10's comes with a flat top. FAL's has the DSA mounts that slide in and stay put.

- hard to service. need a smith just to change the barrel. If you have a new bolt, you just can't just slap here in like an AR, you have to lap and headspace the thing. AR barrels you can replace yourself with a $20 AR wrench, and no magic headspacing necessary.

- cheek weld is non-existence if you run a scope and standard stock.

- stock has no bedding. It is no secret it takes about 40 rounds for the M1A action to settle into a USGI stock. Wood stocks settle in faster, but then it's wood.

- no pistol grip. There is a reason why every modern rifle has a pistol grip.


I myself am not a machinist or a manufacturer, but my next door neighbor is. He does not know anything about guns, but he knows a lot about machining. I take him shooting a lot and afterwards we will clean my weapons together. He indicated the M14/M1A must be a nightmare to manufacturer and nightmare to support. He also commented on the oprod notch and the roller on the bolt too.

Then he commented on the AR and was amazed at the simplicity of the AR and how simple the machined parts were easy to make, it uses standard size springs and drift pins. He told me the AR probably only took about $100 to make while the M14 probably took about $1000 to make. No wonder M1A's are now made in Brazil!

I own two M14's and afraid to really abuse them because I don't have spares, such as a USGI TRW bolt, USGI SA oprod, and USGI trigger. If you have USGI parts hold on to them. If you don't have spares or a spare M1A, then I would hold off on abusing your M14. An M14 is just like a M1903, it is a thing of beauty and an American Icon, and just like a M1903 it is a relic and a thing of the past. You can love your rifle all you want, but lets accept the facts.

AR-10's are boring. You buy them and they shoot MOA right out of the box. No gathering of Holy USGI parts and no hocus pocus cryogentics treatment. M1A's/M14's are much more fun, you get the fun of spending 2 years putting them together just to be only as accurate as an AR-10 out of the box.
</div></div>

I must be lucky, both my M1As shot moa in their synthetic Springfield "wet noodle" stocks. They aren't that difficult to accurize, and would probably do well bedded in a quality stock or EBR.

The Op rod is a potential weak link for high port pressures. Not an issue for loads under 175gr unless they over SAAMI specs. However, the gun was not designed to shoot heavier bullets. This is why they created the NM mod to the gas piston to relieve force on the op rod for hot loads.

I have heard of bent op rods, usually using grenade rounds without switching the spindle valve, never saw one. A bent op rod won't break the rest of the rifle.

Never heard of a broken bolt, bolt roller. Shoot decent ammo and avoid destroying the bolt face. And extractor spring wear is the only COMMON extractor issue.

Haven't had op rod tab wear after several thousand rounds. I know it can happen, so I grease it.

All of these unique parts rarely break, gas cylinder, piston, bolt, etc... and it isn't that hard to replace them. There are multiple places online, Springfield offers a lifetime warranty, and all M14 style rifles can interchange parts (save the Poly/Norinco gas lock) so find a used part.

Modern scope mounts work exceptionally well. Look up Vltor, Troy, KAC, Ultimak, and if you're going all out LRB has a modified receiver that works very well.

Fix your cheek weld with a $15 blackhawk cheek riser.

If you want a pistol grip, get or make a stock with one.

The M1A has some pretty complicated and expensive parts, but it is a tank, well built, and very reliable. People have created quality solutions to the downfall of the M14, primarily the optics platform and ergonomics issue. AR10s are inherently more accurate, but have issues as well.

I've still heard much more opinion than fact.

 

[mescalito]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FOA Team XI</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

FOA Team XI conducted the EBR14 operational assessment with Soldiers operating in and around multiple locations in Afghanistan from 5 December 2008 through 1 January 2009. This assessment is not to be construed as the United States Army Test and Evaluation Command (USATEC) system evaluation report for the EBR14. Per direction of the Army Evaluation Center, surveys were also collected on the legacy M14.

33 EBR users, 6 legacy users.

Able Main, Sery Base, FOB Boris, FOB Curry, FOB Fenty, OP Hatchet, OP Honaker-Miracle, COP Joyce, COP Keating, COP Lowell, FOB Monti, FOB Orgun-E, FOB Salerno, and COP Zerok

• Maintenance and disassembly
• Bipod legs and taking the weapon apart
• Maintenance
• Heavy and not as accurate as the M24
• Difficult maintenance
• Scope Mount
• Weight, no operators tools came with the rifle for assembly/disassembly, no one in theater is qualified to perform higher level maintenance, the scope mounts are weak and cause you to lose zero.
• The fact that I can’t clean it unless I remove the scope and disassemble the weapon. After removing a scope mount I am supposed to verify my zero by shooting. After shooting I am supposed to clean my weapon. It’s a never ending cycle with this inferior Sage stock system.
• Weight – 4 responses
• Close quarters and disassembly of the weapon. It’s good to have an Allen Key in your cleaning kit to tighten the nuts. On average it takes 5-10 minutes to completely disassemble the weapon.
• Taking it apart
• Hard to break down
• Hard to clean
• Side rail mounts loosen up too easily
• Bipod legs fall apart easily
• Weight
• The magazine can be difficult to load at times, causing a miss-feed with the weapon
• Loses zero frequently, too many moving parts on the stock, magazines have issues being locked in quickly, failure to feed/extract with the smallest amount of dust, extremely painful to break down to clean, no adapter for a silencer, scope mount comes loose on patrols.
• The length makes covering this terrain a little more difficult.
• Not being a sub MOA rifles makes it less accurate than it should be. The weight is hugely increased from the original M14 and that makes a big difference in Afghanistan's rugged terrain and high altitude. The mounting bracket for the scope only attaches to the left side of the weapon, which allows for scope twist whenever it is pushed against. The extremely long barrel makes it difficult to move around in this terrain and nearly useless in MOUT/CQB environment.
• Weight, sight acquisition time, difficulty to clean or repair
• Close quarters and weight in the EBR stock
• It is too much of an inconvenience to find Allen keys to remove the rail system so I can perform maintenance.
• Needs to be re-zeroed too much
• Needs to be re-zeroed often
• Make lighter, Issue tools with weapons, issue night sight with gun, issue extra parts to units for fixing the weapon (there are no parts in theater),
• Give it a synthetic stock for ease of takedown, cleaning, weight, balance, and accuracy.
• Use a better stock system
• Redesign so that disassembly is possible without losing zero, different stock system
• The weapon needs to be easier to take apart.
• Exchange the Bipod legs with the ones from the SOFMOD kit
• Make it lighter and more compact – 2 responses
• Different stock; replace the SAGE kit - 2 responses
• Provide a more user friendly stock
• Lighter stock, provide more durable scope dust covers – 3 responses
• Tan colored stock
• Find a simple way to take it apart
• Use a Troy Industry chassis or the McMillan composite stock with built in adjustable cheek piece to upgrade this system. This does away for the need of a side rail mount. Change to a heavier barrel, lighter trigger pull, aftermarket muzzle break or vortex flash suppressor. Stock flash suppressor has a tendency to jump to one side making hard for follow on shots. Have a butt stock that is level with the top rail of the weapon, this will make check to stock well position easier to obtain.
• Night sight
• The safety is in an awkward position (inside the trigger guard), difficult to take off and on safe.
• Sturdier butt stock as the current one seems to come loose easily
• Take away the EBR stock all together. Then original M14 stock was outstanding due to almost no moving pieces, accuracy and easily able to clean the rifle. It makes an effective LRM weapon, but I have doubts of its accuracy and reliability due to how many times I have seen it lose its zero.
• Less weight and better quality of the stock in areas dealing with the Allen screws.
• I would incorporate a more accurate barrel, use a different scope mount that allows the rail system to extend further and would not loosen up as often. Make adjustments to the magazine or magazine well that would allow a more dependable magazine insertion. Make the weapon lighter with a different stock.
• Different style stock and different scope.
• Issue Allen keys to take apart. No one in my unit received any when we were issued our EBR14s. Also sound suppressors would be a great addition to the inventory.
• Find a different way to attach a rail system.
• Better scope
• Put a more effective scope on the rifle

Legacy

M14 is great for flat terrain like Iraq. It doesn't seem very useful to me in a mountainous environment. It’s rare that you see the enemy because of trees and terrain.
• Not good for Close Quarter Combat

</div></div> </div></div>

None of this addresses m118 ammo, nor do I see the platform explained as "funky" anywhere, like in your previous post.
Many of the issues you shared may be valid, but none in the context in which you stated are backed up by this post.

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mescalito</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

None of this addresses m118 ammo, nor do I see the platform explained as "funky" anywhere, like in your previous post.
Many of the issues you shared may be valid, but none in the context in which you stated are backed up by this post. </div></div>

Well that's because you need to read about it. Us guys who actually shoot guns have experienced what I have said first hand. I know you are not smart enough to use Google, so give me some time and I will post some real world experiences for you.