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F T/R Competition 185s HARD on Brass

B

Blue Streak

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 27, 2010
182
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56
KY via Oklahoma
I've just started shooting f/tr,..28" Krieger barrel. I've shot in three 1K matches so far and found that the 185 Berger Hybrids at about 2740 fps do very well. But, what I am seeing is that my brass is waisted in a single shot,...maybe two.

I hate that may brass is gone after one / two shots,...that Lapua brass is good and you know it costs a pretty penny.

Do you guys have this experience with the 185s or am I just driving them too hard? I'm thinking about selling the 300 - 185s I have left and going back to the 175 SMK.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

How fast are your 175s going out of the same barrel? I've been using the Applied Ballistics 175s out of a similar barrel (28" Bartlein 5R) at 2740, although I thought prior to shooting them that they would be closer to 2775-2780 fps. I was looking at the 185s and guesstimated that a comparable powder load would be pushing them around 2675-2700. Seems like your load may be pretty hot according to the results posted here:

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3770406.0

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3768485.0
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Streak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

....185 Berger Hybrids at about 2740 fps....

...my brass is gone after one / two shots...

<span style="font-weight: bold">...am I just driving them too hard?</span> </div></div>

Yes! ...at least with the powder you're using.

You may find that a different powder can reach those speeds without the case-killing pressure you're at now.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

And also tell us how you prepare your virgin brass and how you process it after firing. It would also be a good thing to describe the issue you see with the brass after firing.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

There are a lot of us out there running heavies, that is 175s/178s/185s in the mid 2700s out of long barrels, 30" is the norm in F class. Most are loading Varget, and <span style="text-decoration: underline">in general</span> brass life is good but you start to see failures, in particular loose primer pockets, when you approach 10 loadings. This is the case no matter the brass you use.

If you are having problems after 1 shot you have something else going on.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

Bullets do not waist (sic) your brass until you combine them with TOO MUCH powder.
If PP are too loose after only one or two firings then you have too much pressure. Something has to give. Thank goodness it is only the PP so far.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

My brass is only lasting about three reloadings before the primers start leaking. Im pushing the 185 hunting VLDs at 2800 fps. That's pushing them pretty hard, so I don't expect the brass to last too long.

Barrels, brass, bullets, primers and powder are expendables......
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

Interesting. I'm pushing 180 bullets at about 2850 and I am on my eight reload for my brass. I full length resize with a small base Redding Bushing die and just a few days ago while preparing the virgin brass for my new match rifle, I decided to measure the OD right above the extractor groove comparing my 8X resized brass and virgin Lapua brass. It was exactly the same, at .469 IIRC.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

Sorry about that,..been offline for a few days.

I'm using RL15 but I just picked up some N550 to try it out. I've read a few things about the VV powder getting the velocity withOUT the pressure,..we'll see.

I'm using regular Redding Comp dies,..not the small base. I bump the shoulders after each firing the normal .001 - .002,..then neck size.

My Brass process is to load up new Lapua,..don't do anything to them and head to the range. After the first firing, I tumble clean as normal and use the little bush primer pocket tool and then a small screw driver head to clean out the PP carbon. I don't do anything that I would consider extravagant.

I put my callipers on some new Lapua PP and they came out at .007. I measured some once fired brass and they were from .008 to .009 with a couple at ,010. When I set in the primers,..there is a noticeable difference in how they feel. Some just seem to almost drop in.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Streak</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When I set in the primers,..there is a noticeable difference in how they feel. Some just seem to almost drop in. </div></div> for sure you're over the hottest limit_ the immediate next step is trashing away ALL the enlarged pocket primer brass_
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

Already in the trash,..kind of broke my heart to chunk all that damned expensive Lapua brass,...but I'd rather have a broken heart than a broken rifle or something worse.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

..N550 is a double base,in my opinion less user-friendly, and throat-friendly, than the (more or less) correspondant monobasic N150,despite the Viht.advertising_ I fully understand your sorrow about the thrashed Lapuas,too_
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

Yeah,..I was already second guessing the N550 for the reason you state. I may end up trying some N150 with the 185s but if I can't get them to shot without destroying my brass in 1 or 2 firings,..you will see about 300 Berger 185 hydrids show up on here for sale in the next couple of weeks. I know brass is a consumable, but I'm not a hard core competitor and I could go back to the SMK175s and save my brass.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

I don't know if can help,but I have tried mixin'N150,CCI Br, hpbt200 and Lapuas on my .308,without any problem (I know that I will not be a menace at the next Palma, anyway..)
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

Thanks usftr,...I appreciate the help,..you too wilecoyote.

This kind of thing wreaks havoc on your confidence. I've reloaded for quit some time and never had anything like this happen and now I'm a little,..excuse the pun,.."a little gun shy".
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

you have seen the incoming problem,and you've stopped_on my book,that's ok_I've blown my revolver at my 1st reload,because I was afraid to ask_ decide you what can really be the better behavin'_
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

I see guys in this thread stating velocities over 2800 with 180-185 pills and I just don't see how they do it. I run the 175 SMK with 45 grains Varget in Lapua brass. It gives me 2750 FPS from a 26" 1 in 12 twist barrel in my AW and that is all I feel like I can safely get out of it. BTW, that load has performed admirably out to 1000 yards. Once upon a time a tech from one of the data publishers told me they publish the max as 93% of true max pressure for the cartridge. It is funny how little a change it takes to spike pressure way above that other 7%. Call me old fashioned but I just don't need that kind of speed.
Rant over, now on to your primer pockets. I shoot a 7MM08 built by GAP with a match chamber. I start to loose brass after about 4 loadings due to PP getting loose. I am making my brass from Lapua 260 and I am staying inside published data. Hart, I noticed, makes a tool that is supposed to bring PP back to spec. Has anyone on here tried it? Curious to know if it really works.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

To the OP, RE15 is supposed to be slower than Varget, but it's more temperature sensitive, so your load may be getting cooked this time of yr.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see guys in this thread stating velocities over 2800 with 180-185 pills and I just don't see how they do it. </div></div>

I figured out a long time ago that where I shoot the bullets just go slower than where a lot of guys on the web shoot, or I have the slowest barrels ever made by Rock Creek and Krieger, or my cheap Beta Chrony just gives me low numbers.

Wait till you read that they are getting 2750 from a 24" barrel!?!

The poster above may well be getting that much, loose pockets in 3 firings is pretty fast.

What I think a lot of guys are doing is going back into JBM and back calculating MV from their comeups w/o using DA. That makes a huge difference when it's 98 degrees on the line. The result is that it makes it look like they've gained a lot of MV. When I put in the DA from my kestrel my numbers all match up, usually w/i 1/4 MOA.

I've seen the DA at my range over 4000 ft, the 1000 yard line sits at 900 feet actual. I've also seen my dope change by a full MOA between the morning relay and the one in the afternoon. Same bullet, same rifle, just hotter.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

Thanks XTR, I've heard that RL15 was temp sensitive and as you state could be contributing to my issue.

Yeah,..2750fps from a 24", what the hell?? I also have a cheap chony and I was at 2760 with my 28" 1:11 Krieger and a stiff load of RL15.

I've not heard about a tool to resize pockets?

From what I've read, the 185s need to be at or above 2700 to perform in the wind,..which is what I understand is the primary reason for using these little logs. Is this really the magic number and if you do drop below 2700? My thinking is that if I can't drive these things safety to their "performance" then I'll just go find another bullet. BTW, these are the Berger 185 Hybrids.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

your brass will last longer with a tighter chamber.that`s the key...kiff has one ground special for lapua brass.
DON`T THROW OLD BRASS AWAY.....when you get a bucket full take it to the recycler....
bill larson
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

My chamber sure isn't ground special for Lapua brass but it is a pretty tight 95-Palma.

Yeah,..I can see over time how you could collect a few pounds of brass,..between my M1, M1A, and others it sure can pile up.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

I talked to a guy on the US team last week about 1 of his rifles. He was saying he can get 2800 with 200 Hybrids out of a 32 inch barrel. His load was down at 2720 as he had much better vertical out at distance.

My 23 inch Brux runs right at 2700 with 175 SMK with FGMM brass. Primer pockets are still super tight, but I don't dare go any hotter.

What powder charge are you using with RL-15? Like others have said, it can be sensitive to heat. I don't use it because I only have time to work up loads in the spring when it's cool and then I shoot all my matches in summer heat. I stick with Varget due to its stability.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

I was working around 43.1 - 43.4 of RL-15,..pretty stiff loads.

When I first worked with this load it was with new Lapua or once fired,..man it shot pretty damned good at 1K. I figured I had found my load and was sticking to it,..went out and bought 400 Berger 185s, (damn expensive), Now I'm have one of those "O-shit" moments were I just bought all these things and I might have to do something else,..how many of you have ever been there, hah?

When I first had the issue at 43.4, I backed down to 43.1 and that step back really didn't change anything.

I plan on running out today and picking up some Varget. I will start with new Lapua brass and step up the powder charge. The information I got from Berger puts the max Varget charge at 41.6 @ 2535 fps / 24" barrel. I will probably start 38 or 39 and move up in 5% increments.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

Assuming you are seating to at least mag length, 2.8** or longer you can start at 43 and work up. Most folks get into a node somewhere near 44.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

I was just looking at that.

I pulled up some other load data I have and found that the avg max load from 6 different data sources is 44.2 so I had already decided to start at 43.0 then progress up.

Appreciate the "heads up" anyway.

I'm actually seating them by the ogive at .005 off my lands,..2.193. The tip measurement is something like 2.919.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

They don't mind jumping. The beauty of this bullet is that it's not like the VLDs that need to be jammed. Seat them at -0.010 and see how they do. For most of us .005 is a little close, you probably have an extreme spread to the ogive of close to .003, that means some of them could be pretty close, push them back to .010 and you'll probably find you get better vertical.

I seat mine at 0.010, though I've been told that they like 0.015 in someone elses gun. I've played with them from jammed to .010 out and they just didn't seem to care where they were they shot well.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

XTR - thanks for all the help.

I just finished up my test loads. All I need now is a nice day at the range,..hopefully next weekend.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

When it comes to 185s in F TR Jeff knows about as much as any five good shooters combines.

I have started playing with 185s and have found good results with N540 and varget. The N550 worked better with 200s for me.

The N540 is throwing the 155s super fast.

As to beating brass up. I had a 155 load with H4895 that was Mach 75 LOL but killed brass real fast. The N540 and Varget get near same results without the killing of my brass.

I can guess why but does not matter. What matters is results.

While we are on it I have great results with Palma Small rifle primer brass with 155s but never as good with heavy bullets and slow powders.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

Back a few years ago, I was using the Berger 185BT's. The load was 44.6 grains of RL15, Lapua brass and Wolf primers. Well the speed was good, 2850 fps, elevation was 6 inches at 1K and less at times. All was pretty good if the temps stayed at 80 degress or less.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

Just to clarify further, my problems were happening on a day that was one for the record books around here, (upper 90s at the time I was shooting and got up to 106 later that afternoon). I was home in the A/C before it got up to 106,..thank goodness,..I'm pretty much a fair weather shooter, hah.

Who knows how much the temperature really had to do with my issues but it was pretty damned warm that day.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

Well I would not totally say that RL and heat don't work together. My current load is working pretty good right now. It is 25.0 grains of RL15 a Berger 90 in a 223 and I have shot that load in 94 degree temps with high humidity! When the the temp is like that and you shoot a 149-7X at 1K and it still shoots just as good at 75 degrees, I can't say that it is temp sensetive. The 308 load was just plain hot period, but that was the only load that that barrelled action would shoot at the time. After the nationals, I sold the barrel to a friend of mine, he had it set back and now it is shooting lights out with the 155's! Something that could never get that barrel to do.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: usftr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then you are the only one I know that likes the reloader series. I've seen way too many people try it and EVERYONE I know went back to Varget after a few months. When you travel, you will see the issues. What is good at your range is probably not good at other ranges. Varget seems to work well under most conditions I've shot under. </div></div>

Not correct. I use RL15 in 223 with heavies also. It has been my "Go To" powder for 223 AI. I also use RL22 above anything else in my 7WSM with great results. Oh, an did I mention it is my ONLY powder for the 6.5 Creedmoor.
BTW, I have seen Varget lose at least 1 full MOA when the temp dropped below 50 degrees on many occasions.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

Just a note. I highly recommend the Lyman Reloading Handbook. I reload for more than just my 308, and I've found it to be a great reference with loading data that very closely matched my real world data for several bullet/powder combinations from my 308 to my 45-70.

BTW, for Varget my 49th edition shos max loads for the 308 with:

175SMK - 45.2 @ 2700
178Amax - 44.0 @ 2661

Those are from a 24" test barrel.

I think some of us may exceed their max loads, but I also think not by much. My SMK load is less than their max and my 178 load is slightly higher, and from my 30" barrel I get slightly more MV, but it's in the range.

 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: usftr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have fun with your RL powder. I see you know more than I do. </div></div>

I will. Just keep telling everyone how bad it is so I can find it easily
smile.gif

Did not mean to hurt your feelings at all. Seems to be a lot of thin-skin on here lately. You just made a blanket statement about RL powders that I think a lot of people will find untrue. Also, I obviously don't know as much as some on this thread who are achieving monster velocity from the 308 with heavy bullets.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

I have shot many many pounds of the RL Series powders. Found them to be very easy to get fast velocities and good groups. I found them far too temp sensitive but also found them to behave consistently in different temps. What I mean by that is in my weapons I found them to need more elevation during cold temps and less in high temps. The amount of elevation change needed has shown to be the constant.

I can not give you hard fast rules because I found it slightly different with different calibers.

In short you can make the RL series work but it takes more work than Varget. If you shoot F TR with the RL series I would not chanber a round until your are going to shoot right now.

Just my opinion based on what I have seen using the RL series
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You just made a blanket statement about RL powders that I <span style="font-weight: bold">think</span> a lot of people will find untrue.</div></div>

You "think" but refuse to listen to those who have actual experience with RL15...
crazy.gif


Mike's experience mirrors mine. Work up a load for temps in the 80's and then shoot when it's below freezing. I've had to add a couple of MOA's to my 600 yard comeups when using RL15 in colder temps. Bunch of people "thought" it was due to the air being more dense in the colder temps, my loads with Varget don't reflect that as being true.

I've also seen RL15 leave more carbon in a barrel if it isn't pushed hard...
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

You guys talking about how well your RL powders do to usftr is like telling Lance Armstrong how well your Schwinn rides.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: asbestosglove</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys talking about how well your RL powders do to usftr is like telling Lance Armstrong how well your Schwinn rides. </div></div>

For full effect you needed to post that at 0830 so I would have spewed coffee all over my keyboard.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

I learned long ago:
You are never out of an event until its over. I once told a man that in a big match because he felt he was letting the US down. That man has done very well since.

Just because you did not make something work does not make it wrong.

I have better luck with Varget than the RL powders and I dont use the RL powders for F TR but that only means I went another route not that the powder wont work.

You need to do the hard work yourself to see what works best for your rifle and conditions not just repeat what others have told you.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I learned long ago:
You are never out of an event until its over. I once told a man that in a big match because he felt he was letting the US down. That man has done very well since.

Just because you did not make something work does not make it wrong.

I have better luck with Varget than the RL powders and I dont use the RL powders for F TR but that only means I went another route not that the powder wont work. You need to do the hard work yourself to see what works best for your rifle and conditions not just repeat what others have told you. </div></div>

This is great advice and is what I was trying to say. I am truly sorry if I hurt usftr's feelings.
I would not have thought that RL22 would work, over great extremes in temps, as well as it has in 7 WSM but it has. I see some advertising from Alliant that says certain powders are not temp sensitive so maybe they have reformulated some of them. As for RL15 specifically, My testing and match use proved to me that Varget is the number one choice for the 308.

 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Denys</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting. I'm pushing 180 bullets at about 2850 and I am on my eight reload for my brass. I full length resize with a small base Redding Bushing die and just a few days ago while preparing the virgin brass for my new match rifle, I decided to measure the OD right above the extractor groove comparing my 8X resized brass and virgin Lapua brass. It was exactly the same, at .469 IIRC. </div></div>

Interesting.... Might need to try that.
 
Re: 185s HARD on Brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I learned long ago:
You are never out of an event until its over. </div></div>Not only I agree,but I have suffered the effects of the thinkin'above competing with some German fellow shooters_learnin'that the hard way from those Sportsmen,I owe to them all my shootin'efforts for the next times_
 
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