LMT .308 MWS

[Ragincajun1919]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I've got to get this rifle. Is there one that comes with the 18" barrel originally or are you forced into changing it out yourself?

 

[BDHershey]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ragincajun1919</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've got to get this rifle. Is there one that comes with the 18" barrel originally or are you forced into changing it out yourself? </div></div>

I had my dealer order mine with the 18"stainless barrel from the factory.

Ran about $3k out the door and took about 3 1/2 months.

 

[Cmonroe]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yep i still want a 14.5" MWS with a comp4 on it damn it... </div></div>

Joe, just go buy one brother. I will tell you if you don't get their .260 barrel too your going to kick yourself in the ass. It is by far the most accurate gas gun I have ever shot.

 

[elfster1234]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

looks like kentucky gun company (place where i purchased my 20" CL LMT from with great service and shipping) has all 16", 18", and 20" SS barrels (all with the 11 1/4 twist) in stock for $3090.00 with free shipping... I got my rifle shipped to my gun shop in 3 days from date of purchase.....if you send in a check there is no 3% charge FYI,,, and obviously no tax.......:

http://www.kygunco.com/category.cfm/keenes/Lewis-Machine-Tool-Rifles/InStockOnly/Yes


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cmonroe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yep i still want a 14.5" MWS with a comp4 on it damn it... </div></div>

Joe, just go buy one brother. I will tell you if you don't get their .260 barrel too your going to kick yourself in the ass. It is by far the most accurate gas gun I have ever shot. </div></div>

 

[Km22]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elfster1234</div><div class="ubbcode-body">looks like kentucky gun company (place where i purchased my 20" CL LMT from with great service and shipping) has all 16", 18", and 20" SS barrels (all with the 11 1/4 twist) in stock for $3090.00 with free shipping... I got my rifle shipped to my gun shop in 3 days from date of purchase.....if you send in a check there is no 3% charge FYI,,, and obviously no tax.......:

http://www.kygunco.com/category.cfm/keenes/Lewis-Machine-Tool-Rifles/InStockOnly/Yes



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cmonroe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yep i still want a 14.5" MWS with a comp4 on it damn it... </div></div>

Joe, just go buy one brother. I will tell you if you don't get their .260 barrel too your going to kick yourself in the ass. It is by far the most accurate gas gun I have ever shot. </div></div> </div></div>

Unless you are in California, then they charge you sales tax at the FFL

 

[Dirtracer151]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Km22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Unless you are in California, then they charge you sales tax at the FFL

</div></div>

Find a different FFL!!!

 

[elfster1234]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

wow, i must live in california then.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Km22</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elfster1234</div><div class="ubbcode-body">looks like kentucky gun company (place where i purchased my 20" CL LMT from with great service and shipping) has all 16", 18", and 20" SS barrels (all with the 11 1/4 twist) in stock for $3090.00 with free shipping... I got my rifle shipped to my gun shop in 3 days from date of purchase.....if you send in a check there is no 3% charge FYI,,, and obviously no tax.......:

http://www.kygunco.com/category.cfm/keenes/Lewis-Machine-Tool-Rifles/InStockOnly/Yes



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cmonroe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yep i still want a 14.5" MWS with a comp4 on it damn it... </div></div>

Joe, just go buy one brother. I will tell you if you don't get their .260 barrel too your going to kick yourself in the ass. It is by far the most accurate gas gun I have ever shot. </div></div> </div></div>

Unless you are in California, then they charge you sales tax at the FFL

</div></div>

 

[HPLLC]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I took my LMT MWS out for the second trip (this time with M118LR ammo). The Chrono said 8FPS SD 22FPS ES 2465FPS AVG.

I still had problems grouping the gun, with first groups in the 1.75MOA range. Bench rested bipod and sandsock and shooting the rifle with minimal input like shooting a .22lr bolt gun. I got the gun down to around 1.2MOA when I gripped the rifle like a pistol, pulled it in like a shotgun and really worked at it, and I left the range feeling unimpressed and wanting to further trouble shoot it.

The 7/8" circle targets I plan to replace with squares so I can hold a corner rather than trying to di-sect a circle slightly larger than the reticle width.

I got back to the shop and realized the bi-pod had shot loose. I decided to move that 2" forward and also tighten it down hard.

I removed the flash suppressor which has a small aperture near the muzzle and tested the barrel thread for concentricity in relation to the bore. It was .002-.003" out. So I decided to swap it for a brake in hopes of mitigating as much as possible the potential effects of eccentric aperture and high pressure gas on bullet flight.

I switched the nice looking MIAD std rear grip plastic for the big honking anatomically correct rear plastic.

I experienced failure of the trigger to reset twice (requiring me to push the trigger forward) probably on account of the OEM hammer spring and disconnector spring, so I swapped in the JP disconnector spring which also reduces the load for the trigger spring and that solved that problem trigger reset was notably more positive.

I decided to drill and tap the receiver for an overtravel screw in an effort to save the $200 on an upgrade trigger group. That was a significant improvement in dry firing- the sights do not move when the trigger breaks.

I also tightened up some rotational play in the stock with clear tape on the buffer tube, and ordered a .093" thick sheet of adhesive backed, A-scale 30 durometer neoprene from McMaster Carr to help with stock weld. The charging handle has ~.12" of clearance space over the stock so this should be compatible in all positions.

I'm hoping to get back to the range Thursday and see the rifle shoot better. Under 1MOA all the time is acceptable accuracy IMO with M118LR. Anything over 1MOA doesn't make sense with a 16" relatively heavy barrel and match ammo.

 

[LVdubbin]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Griffin, what scope rings and what height are they?

 

[elfster1234]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

take the barrel completely off, and put it back on and tighten back down with the 140 torque wrench. also, not sure if you reload or not, but my LMT loves 175grn BTHP sierra's.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I took my LMT MWS out for the second trip (this time with M118LR ammo). The Chrono said 8FPS SD 22FPS ES 2465FPS AVG.

I still had problems grouping the gun, with first groups in the 1.75MOA range. Bench rested bipod and sandscok. I got the gun down to around 1.2MOA when I gripped the rifle like a pistol, pulled it in like a shotgun and really worked at it, and I left the range feeling unimpressed and wanting to further trouble shoot it.

The 7/8" circle targets I plan to replace with squares so I can hold a corner rather than trying to di-sect a circle slightly larger than the reticle width.

I got back to the shop and realized the bi-pod had shot loose. I decided to move that 2" forward and also tighten it down hard.

I removed the flash suppressor which has a small aperture near the muzzle and tested the barrel thread for concentricity in relation to the bore. It was .002-.003" out. So I decided to swap it for a brake in hopes of mitigating as much as possible the potential effects of eccentric aperture and high pressure gas on bullet flight.

I switched the nice looking MIAD std rear grip plastic for the big honking anatomically correct rear plastic.

I swapped in a JP yellow hammer spring and that dropped trigger weight from 3.5 to 3 lbs even. I guess it was 3.5 and not 3lbs as I had thought. I've read about potential weak strikes, but the wire diameter was only .005" smaller from .045" to .040, and I would expect the replacement spring is no more than 20% weaker than the OEM, so I think it's worth an attempt. If it's anything like 1911's plenty of people run 1911 with 17lb mainsprings when OEM is ~23lbs. My only past negative experience with the yellow hammer spring was with a tighter than spec trigger group width PWA lower 15 years go, and I had put the legs of the hammer spring under the trigger pin by accident.

I experienced failure of the trigger to reset twice (requiring me to push the trigger forward) probably on account of the OEM hammer spring and disconnector spring, so I swapped in the JP disconnector spring which also reduces the load for the trigger spring and that solved that problem trigger reset was notably more positive.

I decided to drill and tap the receiver for an overtravel screw in an effort to save the $200 on an upgrade trigger group. That was a significant improvement in dry firing- the sights do not move when the trigger breaks.

I also tightened up some rotational play in the stock with clear tape on the buffer tube, and ordered a .093" thick sheet of adhesive backed, A-scale 30 durometer neoprene from McMaster Carr to help with stock weld. The charging handle has ~.12" of clearance space over the stock so this should be compatible in all positions.

I'm hoping to get back to the range Thursday and see the rifle shoot better. Under 1MOA all the time is acceptable accuracy IMO with M118LR. Anything over 1MOA doesn't make sense with a 16" relatively heavy barrel and match ammo.

</div></div>

 

[HPLLC]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LVdubbin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Griffin, what scope rings and what height are they? </div></div>

The scope rings are 1.5" Super high Leupold MKIV rings in Aluminum. I'm going to swap them for Griffin Armament E-Tac rings hopefully in a few weeks. Our rings should be a small improvement primarily in terms of softer edges and a lightning cut as well as stanag 4694 compliance which promises a slightly better repeat-ability of zero retention when the optic is removed and re-attached. Otherwise feature subsets are pretty similar. Leupold makes good rings.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Below is an image of our first sample ring through anodizing. This is a 1.5" Super High Griffin Armament E-Tac or "Enhanced Tactical" ring.</span>

 

[HPLLC]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elfster1234</div><div class="ubbcode-body">take the barrel completely off, and put it back on and tighten back down with the 140 torque wrench. also, not sure if you reload or not, but my LMT loves 175grn BTHP sierra's.

</div></div>

I'll recheck torque. The LMT wrench provided with the gun is broken. I put it in a vise (a square bit in the jaws to test the wrench) and torqued on it and couldn't get it to click no matter how hard I wrenched so I used my own more expensive torque wrench at 128 inch pounds I believe if memory serves correctly.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Did a little reading and am startled to become aware of this "re-install" and accuracy improves phenomenon. I wonder what the cause of inconsistent accuracy with removal of the barrel and reattachment is. </span>

 

[KJMOC]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Anybody have an A2 stock attached to one of these? Haven't seen a pic of an LMT with one.

 

[Dirtracer151]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elfster1234</div><div class="ubbcode-body">take the barrel completely off, and put it back on and tighten back down with the 140 torque wrench. also, not sure if you reload or not, but my LMT loves 175grn BTHP sierra's.

</div></div>

I'll recheck torque. The LMT wrench provided with the gun is broken. I put it in a vise (a square bit in the jaws to test the wrench) and torqued on it and couldn't get it to click no matter how hard I wrenched so I used my own more expensive torque wrench at 128 inch pounds I believe if memory serves correctly.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Did a little reading and am startled to become aware of this "re-install" and accuracy improves phenomenon. I wonder what the cause of inconsistent accuracy with removal of the barrel and reattachment is. </span> </div></div>

Where did you read about this at? Would like to find more info..

 

[HPLLC]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DirtRacer151</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elfster1234</div><div class="ubbcode-body">take the barrel completely off, and put it back on and tighten back down with the 140 torque wrench. also, not sure if you reload or not, but my LMT loves 175grn BTHP sierra's.

</div></div>

I'll recheck torque. The LMT wrench provided with the gun is broken. I put it in a vise (a square bit in the jaws to test the wrench) and torqued on it and couldn't get it to click no matter how hard I wrenched so I used my own more expensive torque wrench at 128 inch pounds I believe if memory serves correctly.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Did a little reading and am startled to become aware of this "re-install" and accuracy improves phenomenon. I wonder what the cause of inconsistent accuracy with removal of the barrel and reattachment is. </span> </div></div>

Where did you read about this at? Would like to find more info.. </div></div>

On this forum there was a post of a user describing 4MOA groups and then someone suggested removing and re-attaching the barrel and groups shrunk to 1/2MOA.

On another google fu'd post on a forum a guy was saying LMT told him to re-attach his barrel and his accuracy problem was solved.

This is interesting because I removed my barrel to get the profile step for the RSTA over the barrel mount cut, and then re-attached it. The previous owner said it was regularly under 1MOA, and then the owner of the rifle before him also turned out to be someone I know and he said it was better than 1MOA for him also. So maybe it's a case of a need to re-attach the barrel.

 

[Dirtracer151]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DirtRacer151</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elfster1234</div><div class="ubbcode-body">take the barrel completely off, and put it back on and tighten back down with the 140 torque wrench. also, not sure if you reload or not, but my LMT loves 175grn BTHP sierra's.

</div></div>

I'll recheck torque. The LMT wrench provided with the gun is broken. I put it in a vise (a square bit in the jaws to test the wrench) and torqued on it and couldn't get it to click no matter how hard I wrenched so I used my own more expensive torque wrench at 128 inch pounds I believe if memory serves correctly.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Did a little reading and am startled to become aware of this "re-install" and accuracy improves phenomenon. I wonder what the cause of inconsistent accuracy with removal of the barrel and reattachment is. </span> </div></div>

Where did you read about this at? Would like to find more info.. </div></div>

On this forum there was a post of a user describing 4MOA groups and then someone suggested removing and re-attaching the barrel and groups shrunk to 1/2MOA.

On another google fu'd post on a forum a guy was saying LMT told him to re-attach his barrel and his accuracy problem was solved.

This is interesting because I removed my barrel to get the profile step for the RSTA over the barrel mount cut, and then re-attached it. The previous owner said it was regularly under 1MOA, and then the owner of the rifle before him also turned out to be someone I know and he said it was better than 1MOA for him also. So maybe it's a case of a need to re-attach the barrel.
</div></div>

Interesting. It must have something to do with harmonics or something. I wonder if tightening the front or rear screw first makes a difference.

I don't remove my barrel much but the 260 barrel is 3/4" or better and the chrome lined 308 is probably even better then that. If i ever get a time where they're being stubborn i'll try the reinstall technique.

 

[Cologgi]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DirtRacer151</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elfster1234</div><div class="ubbcode-body">take the barrel completely off, and put it back on and tighten back down with the 140 torque wrench. also, not sure if you reload or not, but my LMT loves 175grn BTHP sierra's.

</div></div>

I'll recheck torque. The LMT wrench provided with the gun is broken. I put it in a vise (a square bit in the jaws to test the wrench) and torqued on it and couldn't get it to click no matter how hard I wrenched so I used my own more expensive torque wrench at 128 inch pounds I believe if memory serves correctly.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Did a little reading and am startled to become aware of this "re-install" and accuracy improves phenomenon. I wonder what the cause of inconsistent accuracy with removal of the barrel and reattachment is. </span> </div></div>

Where did you read about this at? Would like to find more info.. </div></div>

On this forum there was a post of a user describing 4MOA groups and then someone suggested removing and re-attaching the barrel and groups shrunk to 1/2MOA.

On another google fu'd post on a forum a guy was saying LMT told him to re-attach his barrel and his accuracy problem was solved.

This is interesting because I removed my barrel to get the profile step for the RSTA over the barrel mount cut, and then re-attached it. The previous owner said it was regularly under 1MOA, and then the owner of the rifle before him also turned out to be someone I know and he said it was better than 1MOA for him also. So maybe it's a case of a need to re-attach the barrel.
</div></div>
Its got to be reinstalling the barrel and going to the reloads. I still have the load info that was shooting well in that gun if you need it.

 

[trident1982]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Griffen...a cpl. things:

Firstly, your rifle looks excellent, so much so that I'm boggled as to why you have done so many little "mods" to it. Prehaps it's just me but it appears your getting bogged down in the unimportant minutia like the concentracity of your threads causing "potential effects of eccentric aperture and high pressure gas on bullet flight", or whatever it is that you've done to your stock.

Personally, I would focus at least for the first 3-4 range trips on truly getting used to driving this particular .308 gas gun with absolute proper technique. Film yourself, or have a friend that knows proper shooting fundamentals come along. I'm not questioning your time behind rifles in general, or your knowledge of them, but rather just trying to point out that the MWS requires at least some period of learning in order to drive it right.

I always completely rule out the Indian before I start blaming arrows. If you had really shot some crazy large groups, than I might think otherwise, but your using factory loaded ammo, and that rifle is new to you...and yet your starting place is sub 2" groups.

I'm confident you'll get to where you want to be with that rifle, but I think you'll get there quicker by focusing on other factors besides your rifle.

RE: Removing/installing barrels to improve accuracy.....flat out if you did this, and it worked....your MWS/MRP is f**ked, not fixed.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Your Test was interesting. It would have been more interesting had you grouped the rifle with each installation and removal of the barrel.

As it is you have 4 rounds in ~1MOA and a 5th at 120in lbs opening the overall group to ~1.75MOA. This doesn't confirm or deny this phantom barrel installation problem some people are describing.

That same day (of the last LMT range day) I shot my brother's APA Genesis and put two in one hole with a called flier opening the group to .4MOA. He put 3 in .2MOA. Same M118LR ammo.

There are a few possible contributors to the poor performance of the LMT gun to date:
1 The trigger lacked an overtravel stop (not anymore)
2 The target wasn't ideal (next time I'm out I'll shoot 1" squares and hole a corner instead of trying to bysect a 7/8" circle with a 10x leupold).
3 The flash suppressor and thread eccentricity may have contributed (unsure).
4 Maybe this barrel mounting issue.

I can say I recently at a 21 day course shot M24 clones and DPMS SASS rifles and the DPMS gun was probably consistently inside 1.4MOA (better when cold but after 4-5 rounds it opened to ~1.4MOA.)

In the Army I had a M110 and the factory test targets were 1.2MOA and I could shoot 1-1.25MOA with it regularly and repeatably.

The LMT gun If I had to guaranty a hit, I'd say maybe 3MOA right now would be the pre-requisite size of the target. That's because these 1.2-2MOA groups are all 3 shot groups and if I put them all together (30 rounds) they would probably look like a 3MOA aggregate group.

The KAC rifle shot like a dream- I didn't have to work to shoot it and didn't have to muscle it into my shoulder to get it to shoot.

The DPMS gun was a little more of a conscientious effort and was borderline a pain in the ass to do precise work with. It had a JP single stage trigger about 4.5lbs. Consistent grip and pressure however yielded acceptable and consistent results.

This LMT gun (so far) is more like a nightmare to shoot- one that leaves me asking myself 20 different questions as to why it didn't put the round where I aimed it. Even when I locked it in firm like a shotgun near the end of the session, 3 rounds in .55MOA and a fourth opened the group to 2MOA.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I'm going to try to get our Thursday to shoot it. That's the next open range day in my area.

I think I've done some reasonable troubleshooting steps and I'm probably going to re-mount the barrel just because it is one possible problem area.</span>

I also took a second look at your picture and can see you're running an Atlas Bipod and have a Gissele trigger? The gun isn't stock so un-important minutia would not appear to be consistent with your approach to your own gun.

My brother's APA has an Atlas Bipod. With the legs pivoted slightly forward it does really help stabilize the gun. That observation was the basis for me moving my Bipod 2" forward.

 

[11B-B4]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I'll add something to this thread.... I know my brother isn't a benchrest champion shooter, but hes a solid shooter, has alot of experience on gas guns and bolt guns.

I honestly think it has something to do with the gun.

We both shoot relatively decent, and this gun is just really inconsistent. Like he said you can put 2 in one hole and throw a third way out. It has you scratching your head. We were in the same 2 man sniper team for several years and we never gave each other bull shit calls to make ourselves look better (pretty common for new guys working together) so when my brother says his shot broke center I believe him. Vise versa as well.

It maybe be as simple as handloading... maybe the chamber on this gun is not setup for m118lr, although I would kinda find that hard to belive as it was aimed at the military market. But again, it could be that simple. I guess we should check the chamber depth

Anyway... it will be interesting, I dont think the rifle is jacked, but I definitely thing something is not right. Maybe the barrel torque is the problem.

Ive got several torque wrenches so I can eliminate that variable.

but thanks to everyone in the thread for the advice and pointers.... two minds are more brilliant than one!

 

[Bravo 1]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

RE: Removing/installing barrels to improve accuracy.....flat out if you did this, and it worked....your MWS/MRP is f**ked, not fixed."

Adding something to this thread, I experienced EXACTLY what Trident1982 stated with my LMT. I

I had bought one when it first came out and scoped it with a Leupold LR 3.5-10X M3.

To start I have a lot of hours behind a bolt as well as gas guns creeping up on the magical age of 60 and having a AR-10T that would shoot 1/2-3/4" MOA all day with Fed match 168.

I started to shoot a 5 and 10 round group but noticed that after only three rounds that the group started to open up big time. The first 2 rounds were 1/2-3/4 inch MOA at 100 meters and a BIG smile came immediately came upon my face only to see the third round open the group to 1 3/8.

I repeated this numerous times (10) but to no avail. Never did shoot a 5 or 10 rounder because of this.

I too though about the barrel, removed it and re torque it only to find out that now the last 2 rounds were touching and the third opened up to 1.5".

I did everything could think of including having another shooter use it with results very consistent to mine.

I called up LMT and spoke to 2 different guy's a few day's apart and one stated "I wouldn't worry, this is a 1.5" MOA weapon." "Maybe you are using the torque wrench wrong each time." this left a bad taste in my mouth so I called a few day's later and the other said basically the same thing "what you have is a battle weapon, not a precision weapon." "I would suggest buying a SS barrel and your groups will shrink. You have a 1.5 MOA weapon and that's all. If you get more consider yourself lucky."

When I told him that there were others that were having outstanding accuracy the last one said "You can send it in and we can check it but if you get 1.5 MOA I wouldn't bother."
I believe others on this site when they say they are getting outstanding groups from their LMT.

Maybe I bought a "lemon" but to have 2 from LMT tell me "don't worry" and consider buying a SS barrel after spending $2,300.00 didn't sit well with me.

I immediately put it up for sale and ordered a GAP-10. It will be here right before Christmas.

I did IM Trident1982 about a SS barrel, didn't receive a reply so I figured but you were busy.

 

[R.O.U.S.]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I hope you have better luck with the GAP-10.

 

[Dirtracer151]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Trident, i've seen your test in the past and like the results. Just curious, did you completely remove the barrel each time before re-torquing or did you just back the screws out and re-torque?

I'm just curious what the return to zero is like when you completely remove the barrel. So far every time i've removed my barrel i've also removed or replaced my scope so i haven't been able to test this for myself.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DirtRacer151</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trident, i've seen your test in the past and like the results. Just curious, did you completely remove the barrel each time before re-torquing or did you just back the screws out and re-torque?

I'm just curious what the return to zero is like when you completely remove the barrel. So far every time i've removed my barrel i've also removed or replaced my scope so i haven't been able to test this for myself. </div></div>

I can answer your question. I have had my barrel off a number of times, as the rifle is much easier to clean that way, and always re-torque it to the same exact value using a good torque wrench that I leave "relaxed" between uses (not tensioned like the wrench that LMT supplies with tape on it to prevent changing the setting).

It always returns to the exact same POI.

But remember, I DO re-torque it exactly.

Jim G

 

[Dirtracer151]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DirtRacer151</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trident, i've seen your test in the past and like the results. Just curious, did you completely remove the barrel each time before re-torquing or did you just back the screws out and re-torque?

I'm just curious what the return to zero is like when you completely remove the barrel. So far every time i've removed my barrel i've also removed or replaced my scope so i haven't been able to test this for myself. </div></div>

I can answer your question. I have had my barrel off a number of times, as the rifle is much easier to clean that way, and always re-torque it to the same exact value using a good torque wrench that I leave "relaxed" between uses (not tensioned like the wrench that LMT supplies with tape on it to prevent changing the setting).

It always returns to the exact same POI.

But remember, I DO re-torque it exactly.

Jim G </div></div>

Thanks Jim. I'm anxious to test this on mine now!!

Anyone else experience similar results?

 

[elfster1234]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

i take my barrel off about every 4th cleaning as it does make it easier to clean and my POI is damn near nuts on all the time.... it does make it really easy to clean the rifle.

 

[elfster1234]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

do you think it might have something to do with the fact you don't have a 1pc scope mount? was just wondering if that might make a difference? just and idea.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I took my LMT MWS out for the second trip (this time with M118LR ammo). The Chrono said 8FPS SD 22FPS ES 2465FPS AVG.

I still had problems grouping the gun, with first groups in the 1.75MOA range. Bench rested bipod and sandsock and shooting the rifle with minimal input like shooting a .22lr bolt gun. I got the gun down to around 1.2MOA when I gripped the rifle like a pistol, pulled it in like a shotgun and really worked at it, and I left the range feeling unimpressed and wanting to further trouble shoot it.

The 7/8" circle targets I plan to replace with squares so I can hold a corner rather than trying to di-sect a circle slightly larger than the reticle width.

I got back to the shop and realized the bi-pod had shot loose. I decided to move that 2" forward and also tighten it down hard.

I removed the flash suppressor which has a small aperture near the muzzle and tested the barrel thread for concentricity in relation to the bore. It was .002-.003" out. So I decided to swap it for a brake in hopes of mitigating as much as possible the potential effects of eccentric aperture and high pressure gas on bullet flight.

I switched the nice looking MIAD std rear grip plastic for the big honking anatomically correct rear plastic.

I experienced failure of the trigger to reset twice (requiring me to push the trigger forward) probably on account of the OEM hammer spring and disconnector spring, so I swapped in the JP disconnector spring which also reduces the load for the trigger spring and that solved that problem trigger reset was notably more positive.

I decided to drill and tap the receiver for an overtravel screw in an effort to save the $200 on an upgrade trigger group. That was a significant improvement in dry firing- the sights do not move when the trigger breaks.

I also tightened up some rotational play in the stock with clear tape on the buffer tube, and ordered a .093" thick sheet of adhesive backed, A-scale 30 durometer neoprene from McMaster Carr to help with stock weld. The charging handle has ~.12" of clearance space over the stock so this should be compatible in all positions.

I'm hoping to get back to the range Thursday and see the rifle shoot better. Under 1MOA all the time is acceptable accuracy IMO with M118LR. Anything over 1MOA doesn't make sense with a 16" relatively heavy barrel and match ammo.

</div></div>

 

[Conrad101st]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Mine shoots 168's significantly better than 175. Try that.
I also had a Remington 700 that shot remington corelocks tighter than match ammo. Go figure.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bravo 1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Maybe I bought a "lemon" but to have 2 from LMT tell me "don't worry" and consider buying a SS barrel after spending $2,300.00 didn't sit well with me.
</div></div>

I'd tend to agree. The gun is not a $600 FAL. It's a $2300 Ar10. I would expect the ~2MOA from a used surplus FN FAL, but not from a $2300 gun. It's easier to put $50 more into a quality barrel the first time than make the customer buy another barrel later to achieve that result.

The Stainless barrels are retardedly expensive. $600 for a $300 tube. I don't see the justification for the price unless they are triple Cryoed, Cut rifled Kriegers with OD ground contours.

I've got a case of M118LR, I'm going to try to shoot it again and hope the trigger mod, the brake, remounting the barrel, moving the bipod, switching the target to something easier to aim small on, or something else helps improve it.

 

[Dirtracer151]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

You really should try some other ammo as well before you draw any conclusions.

I loaded varget behind 175SMKs the first and only time i shot the factory 308 barrel and it shot .5"

 

[samnev]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanSniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a JP trigger spring in mine, and it dropped the stock trigger to 3lbs (50% first stage and 50% second). If the LMT had an overtravel stop it would be as good as anything out there.

The JP trigger is the OEM in the DPMS Sass, and I think the Stock LMT with the trigger spring is significantly better. </div></div>
+1 trigger ends up being very crisp! </div></div>
+2 for the JP trigger spring. Also dropped my TP to about 3 lbs.

 

[samnev]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elfster1234</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do you think it might have something to do with the fact you don't have a 1pc scope mount? was just wondering if that might make a difference? just and idea.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I took my LMT MWS out for the second trip (this time with M118LR ammo). The Chrono said 8FPS SD 22FPS ES 2465FPS AVG.

I still had problems grouping the gun, with first groups in the 1.75MOA range. Bench rested bipod and sandsock and shooting the rifle with minimal input like shooting a .22lr bolt gun. I got the gun down to around 1.2MOA when I gripped the rifle like a pistol, pulled it in like a shotgun and really worked at it, and I left the range feeling unimpressed and wanting to further trouble shoot it.

The 7/8" circle targets I plan to replace with squares so I can hold a corner rather than trying to di-sect a circle slightly larger than the reticle width.

I got back to the shop and realized the bi-pod had shot loose. I decided to move that 2" forward and also tighten it down hard.

I removed the flash suppressor which has a small aperture near the muzzle and tested the barrel thread for concentricity in relation to the bore. It was .002-.003" out. So I decided to swap it for a brake in hopes of mitigating as much as possible the potential effects of eccentric aperture and high pressure gas on bullet flight.

I switched the nice looking MIAD std rear grip plastic for the big honking anatomically correct rear plastic.

I experienced failure of the trigger to reset twice (requiring me to push the trigger forward) probably on account of the OEM hammer spring and disconnector spring, so I swapped in the JP disconnector spring which also reduces the load for the trigger spring and that solved that problem trigger reset was notably more positive.

I decided to drill and tap the receiver for an overtravel screw in an effort to save the $200 on an upgrade trigger group. That was a significant improvement in dry firing- the sights do not move when the trigger breaks.

I also tightened up some rotational play in the stock with clear tape on the buffer tube, and ordered a .093" thick sheet of adhesive backed, A-scale 30 durometer neoprene from McMaster Carr to help with stock weld. The charging handle has ~.12" of clearance space over the stock so this should be compatible in all positions.

I'm hoping to get back to the range Thursday and see the rifle shoot better. Under 1MOA all the time is acceptable accuracy IMO with M118LR. Anything over 1MOA doesn't make sense with a 16" relatively heavy barrel and match ammo.

</div></div> </div></div>

My LMT also had lousy groups, 3+" 5 shot groups @ 100 yards out of the box with 168 gr SMK's until I took the barrel out inspected and retorqued it. Still doesn't shoot groups as well as my DPMS SASS. I am not very impressed with LMT's QC. The rifle also had a half dozen nicks in the finish. I think LMT has gotten to complacent lately. My older LMT 5.56 QCB was pefect out of the box a very accurate.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I took the gun out again. The POI shifted 2MOA right with the addition of the brake. I came left 3MOA for most of the shooting and came to 2MOA left for the last 3 in the head.

I got to the range and spent the first 20 minutes dry firing and the trigger was braking in about a .35MOA total width wobble zone right or left of center, with a lot of dry firing braking more or less dead center. The trigger is just under 3LBS now and has an overtravel stop.

I then shot these 23 rounds in about 10 minutes. The hold was bottom right corner of the squares for all the shots on the black squares. The group in the head I came to 2MOA right for and held center of the staples.

The composite group of 23 rounds was 2.5MOA (with all windage factored as the same) and I don't really think it is possible my shooter error could account for more than .5MOA of that, so giving the rifle the benefit of the doubt, I'll say this rifle is a 2MOA rifle at best.

I swapped to a DPMS trigger spring prior to firing today (their spring came from Brownells with the legs bent just slightly to the weaker than OEM side), and there were zero ignition issues. I measured the hammer with my trigger pull gauge at about 4.5lbs of pressure when cocked which was just barely more (maybe 4 ounces) than a new JP yellow hammer spring.

I'm not really happy with the accuracy of the rifle. I think 1.5MOA for the composite would be something I would be happy with.

On my last trip to the range when the gun was shooting more like 3+MOA, I rested my ADCO CMV barreled 14.5" M4 carbine on the vertical forgrip and shot a 2MOA 5 round group with M193 55 grain ammo using the 4 power ACOG for comparison. That gun has a 4.5 lb trigger too.

 

[elfster1234]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I think I would stop beating yourself up over this. Looks like you might have a lemon and would either sell it or if possible (and most likely not possible) try and return it... Or send it into LMT and see what they can do for you, but it sounds like you've already answered your question by calling LMT.

I had a DPMS LR-308 that was like this. No matter what I did I couldnt get the thing to shoot. 2" groups, 3" groups, even damn near 4" groups. Seriously wasted over 260 rounds of money trying to figure out what the heck was wrong with it until i just came to the conclusion that I got a bad apple. Took it back to gander mtn and demanded a new LR308.. It took some bitching but the store manager made it happen and the new LR308 shot really nice and I was really happy with it. I eventualy sold that LR308 and got my current LMT MWS and I'm glad I did. Maybe see if one of your friends has a 1pc larue mount rathter than two scope mount set up and see if that helps, but other than that it sounds like you've covered all bases.

Stop beating yourself up / wasting your money,,,, and sell it and get something else. Get something you will be happy with.

As for me. I love my LMT. Yes, for every .5" group i'll get maybe a 1" group. Maybe even a tad bit more pushing 1.5". There is just too many factors such as slight bullet grains difference, powder grain charge difference, small gust of wind, small nick in the tip of the bullet, slight twich of the finger..... Hell, your barrel heating up does more damage to accuracy than anything.... Too many factors to know for sure what changes some of my groups from .5 to 1", but I'm working on it with reloading hopefully.... Things are improving & getting better for me now that I'm starting to reload. Reloading is now sucking up all my time and I really do enjoy it. It's a whole different ball of wax. Will I get a .5" group every time I shoot a 5shot group @ 100yards,,, No. Do I expect to get a .5" group out of a semi auto on every 5shot group,,,, it would be nice but no... Someone that says they get a .5" or maybe even .75" group <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic">every single time</span></span></span> they take 5shots = they are full of shit (for a semi auto that is,, maybe bolt action)... There is some 1" to 1.5" group they are not showing ya.. Trust me.

As for you, it sounds like you might have a lemon on your hands and I think it would be best if you just moved on with something you enjoy shooting.

Sell it brother. Move on.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I took the gun out again. The POI shifted 2MOA right with the addition of the brake. I came left 3MOA for most of the shooting and came to 2MOA left for the last 3 in the head.

I got to the range and spent the first 20 minutes dry firing and the trigger was braking in about a .35MOA total width wobble zone right or left of center, with a lot of dry firing braking more or less dead center. The trigger is just under 3LBS now and has an overtravel stop.

I then shot these 23 rounds in about 10 minutes. The hold was bottom right corner of the squares for all the shots on the black squares. The group in the head I came to 2MOA right for and held center of the staples.

The composite group of 23 rounds was 2.5MOA (with all windage factored as the same) and I don't really think it is possible my shooter error could account for more than .5MOA of that, so giving the rifle the benefit of the doubt, I'll say this rifle is a 2MOA rifle at best.

I swapped to a DPMS trigger spring prior to firing today (their spring came from Brownells with the legs bent just slightly to the weaker than OEM side), and there were zero ignition issues. I measured the hammer with my trigger pull gauge at about 4.5lbs of pressure when cocked which was just barely more (maybe 4 ounces) than a new JP yellow hammer spring.

I'm not really happy with the accuracy of the rifle. I think 1.5MOA for the composite would be something I would be happy with.

On my last trip to the range when the gun was shooting more like 3+MOA, I rested my ADCO CMV barreled 14.5" M4 carbine on the vertical forgrip and shot a 2MOA 5 round group with M193 55 grain ammo using the 4 power ACOG for comparison. That gun has a 4.5 lb trigger too.

</div></div>

 

[HPLLC]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Your group with American Eagle is impressive.

If I could buy a barrel for even $600 that I knew would shoot under 1MOA for 5 rounds, I think that would be worth the money. The accuracy in these guns is the barrel and bolt, so it would be cool if someone like GAP was selling barrels compatible with this system. It shouldn't be hard to get the platform to shoot well.

I didn't call LMT. My barrel has a contoured step cut for the muzzle device and that would probably void anything from there end.

I've had really great experience with ADCO suppressor threaded barrels, and I'm beginning to think that concentric muzzle devices have a lot to do with good accuracy especially any muzzle devices with reasonably tight apertures in conjunction with short barrels with high pressure muzzle blast.

I could probably shoot blind muzzle and get this gun to shoot significantly better, but that would be pointless as it wouldn't be suppressor compatible.

 

[elfster1234]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

if you do have an after market @ the end of the barrel it could be something to do with the crown. Most important part of the barrel in terms of accuracy is the last 1/2" of the rifling. Main reason why i use bore snakes and to make sure I pull them directly out of the barrel and not off at an angle. Might improve the more you shoot it.. Not sure...

If it was me, I think I would take the whole scope off and start there.. See if you can try a friend's 1pc mount set up if possible without having to purchase new mounts. Just not a fan of two scope rings /mount set up.

Then again, these damn AR-10 platform rifles are known for a 1 out of 5 flyer for some damn reason. Just when you think you have a bad ass 1/4" moa group, that 1 shot F$#K's ya all up. Just like this!

 

[HPLLC]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

The crown of the barrel wasn't cut.

I am going to switch scope rings, as we have our own rings that will be done soon. That will allow that to be tested. I would be surprised if anything changed.

I agree the autoloaders do throw fliers occasionally. The better guns just throw them closer. I've heard buffer springs can improve that but don't know anything about it.

Maybe when my suppressor is done that will help the barrel shoot more accurately? Sometimes the weight stabilizes the barrel harmonics.

 

[elfster1234]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

sounds good brother... let me know how it all goes. it would be nice to see your LMT shooting under 1" as it should, but don't let that once in a while 1.5" group kick your ass too much as it happens to me every time I hit the range. Out of maybe 10 total @ 5shot groups, I bet i have atleast one group at 1.5". I could be anything especially with only a harris bipod. No clue if it is me, the rifle, or god playing dirty tricks on me. Anyone with an AR-10 (and that goes for GAP's and OBR's) that say they do .5moa all day long on EVERY single 5shot group is full of crap. Just saying. There is some 1"plus group they are not talking about. Trust me. Bolt action's are a whole different ball of wax.

BTW, have you ever just done a test and hand insert each round in the chamber and let the action go. Fire, and repeat for 1 group @ 5shots? Just wondering.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The crown of the barrel wasn't cut.

I am going to switch scope rings, as we have our own rings that will be done soon. That will allow that to be tested. I would be surprised if anything changed.

I agree the autoloaders do throw fliers occasionally. The better guns just throw them closer. I've heard buffer springs can improve that but don't know anything about it.

Maybe when my suppressor is done that will help the barrel shoot more accurately? Sometimes the weight stabilizes the barrel harmonics. </div></div>

 

[elfster1234]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Also,,,, well for 100yards that is, I'll usually just make a perfect black dot (about the size of a nickel / just under a quarter)... 3/4" to 1" black dot stickers work great, but there is nothing wrong with just making a nice perfect 3/4" black dot with a black magic marker on regular white paper.. I like to use huge 2'x3' (i get it for free which is nice) heavy duty paper with 6 total of these black dots on it, then mark what my 5shot groupings where done with (LMT, 168grn sierra matchking BTHP, BR-2 primer, 41grns varget, blah blah blah) with each 5shot grouping on the paper... I keep all of these target posters for future reference now that i'm reloading. It is really nice to see what grouping was done with what ammo load specs. Will make sure my scope is @ 100yard paralax setting, crank scope all the way up and back it off just a tad maybe, and set the 3/4" black dot dead center like a milldot... Will use a half ass'd home made sand bag on the back buttstock from time to time also. Running a semi auto for accuracy really is a skill. All about trigger pull, breathing, heatbeat awareness, and recoil follow thru on these semi autos.

Not saying you dont have a lemon as I've been there and done that with about 2 other rifles in my day.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The crown of the barrel wasn't cut.

I am going to switch scope rings, as we have our own rings that will be done soon. That will allow that to be tested. I would be surprised if anything changed.

I agree the autoloaders do throw fliers occasionally. The better guns just throw them closer. I've heard buffer springs can improve that but don't know anything about it.

Maybe when my suppressor is done that will help the barrel shoot more accurately? Sometimes the weight stabilizes the barrel harmonics. </div></div>

 

[Dynamic Response]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I'm surprised to see griffin is having that big of groups with the LMT. I shoot American eagle 150g fmj and have no problem getting 1/2 MOA. The FGMM is even better just one ragged hole. I would think the m118lr would be just as good or better. The gun was designed with that bullet in mind.

I would recheck everything and go try again and dont forget about parallax. Everyone seems to over look the parallax and that's a huge mistake. If its not set right even at 100yards it will open up your groups.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigB308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm surprised to see griffin is having that big of groups with the LMT. I shoot American eagle 150g fmj and have no problem getting 1/2 MOA. The FGMM is even better just one ragged hole. I would think the m118lr would be just as good or better. The gun was designed with that bullet in mind.

I would recheck everything and go try again and dont forget about parallax. Everyone seems to over look the parallax and that's a huge mistake. If its not set right even at 100yards it will open up your groups. </div></div>

My parralax was focused well enough that black to black, I was getting about .2" of movement of the reticle on paper at 100 yards.

I thought about 300 below cryoing the barrel (just because replacement barrels for the MWS platform are so expensive, and then read LMT already did that apparently according to their marketing literature.

I did fire these in about 10-12 minutes, but I don't see any trend of the rifle opening up or really moving around a lot (the top right group fired second from the end shifted about .6MOA down), but that is about the only group that appears to be significantly shifted.

My next trip to the range will probably be to re-zero after switching scope rings. Maybe I'll shoot at staples to see if the gun groups better with a different type of target. That would isolate the "fluke variable" for the .53 moa group there.

I found a shop that will do an upgrade barrel here: https://dbmg-llc.3dcartstores.com/MWS-conversion_p_33.html

The prices on the LMT stainless barrels are $600-$700 and I'd probably want to buy an 18" and cut it to 17" at ADCO so I could get threads that were concentric to the bore. At that point it would be a $700-$800 barrel.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I talked to the 300 below cryo people, and they said that manufacturers often cryo treat raw stock for machining purposes and not after machining the finished barrel.

The technical guy with 300 below said that Rock River Cryos 1000 barrels per week with them (after machining), so there must be some tangible benefit to see from the service or they wouldn't bother. Rock River also has actual accuracy guarantees with their products and that is a vote of confidence IMO. It is $110 and I'm going to see if LMT cryos before or after the machining if they are willing to say which, and if it is before, I think I'm going to send my barrel and see what happens.

The 2.5MOA aggregate 23 round group suggests to me that there are some stresses in the barrel. If I could bring that into 1.5MOA I'd be pretty happy with this rifle.

 

[Dirtracer151]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Have you tried different ammo yet?? Seems like youre digging pretty deep before going through the common variables. I also agree with a different target. Ive never been able to shoot black dots well. I seem to prefer shoot-n-sees with the red dot in the middle.

And as long as your crown is square i wouldn't sweat the threads too much. The crown is THE most important part. I saw a friend cut down a savage with a hack saw before (dumb i know) and clean up the crown with various files and sand paper and believe it or not the gun still shot decent. Questioning the barrel threads needs to be waaaayyy down on your troubleshoot check list.

 

[Cologgi]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Not to be a dck and call some of you guys out....but Griffin was an army sniper, and he builds suppressors. I think he knows the fundamentals of shooting, breathing, heartbeat, and everything else that it takes to drive the rifle. There is something else going on here.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elfster1234</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also,,,, well for 100yards that is, I'll usually just make a perfect black dot (about the size of a nickel / just under a quarter)... 3/4" to 1" black dot stickers work great, but there is nothing wrong with just making a nice perfect 3/4" black dot with a black magic marker on regular white paper.. I like to use huge 2'x3' (i get it for free which is nice) heavy duty paper with 6 total of these black dots on it, then mark what my 5shot groupings where done with (LMT, 168grn sierra matchking BTHP, BR-2 primer, 41grns varget, blah blah blah) with each 5shot grouping on the paper... I keep all of these target posters for future reference now that i'm reloading. It is really nice to see what grouping was done with what ammo load specs. Will make sure my scope is @ 100yard paralax setting, crank scope all the way up and back it off just a tad maybe, and set the 3/4" black dot dead center like a milldot... Will use a half ass'd home made sand bag on the back buttstock from time to time also. Running a semi auto for accuracy really is a skill. All about trigger pull, breathing, heatbeat awareness, and recoil follow thru on these semi autos.

Not saying you dont have a lemon as I've been there and done that with about 2 other rifles in my day.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The crown of the barrel wasn't cut.

I am going to switch scope rings, as we have our own rings that will be done soon. That will allow that to be tested. I would be surprised if anything changed.

I agree the autoloaders do throw fliers occasionally. The better guns just throw them closer. I've heard buffer springs can improve that but don't know anything about it.

Maybe when my suppressor is done that will help the barrel shoot more accurately? Sometimes the weight stabilizes the barrel harmonics. </div></div></div></div>

 

[HPLLC]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I'm not by any means the long range shooter equivalent of a lot of members here, but I'm pretty sure I could keep my rounds in 1.5MOA if the rifle would do its part.

If I had to theorize, I'd probably lean toward:

I could probably custom tailor a load for the rifle and get it to shoot better as the previous owners did. That said, I sort of feel that the need to custom tailor (as compared to LC M118LR) a load to pull the 2.5MOA group closer to 1.5MOA is indicative of a a harmonic issue that probably points to some residual stress in the barrel. I do also have 950 rounds of this ammo so custom tailoring a load is less attractive as an option.

My brother took the same M118LR ammo I was shooting and put 3 rounds into .2MOA with his APA genesis. His velocity extreme spread was identical to the MWS. With this gun his only 3 rounds went into 1.2MOA.

I talked to the owner of 300 below in Illinois for about 10-15 minutes, and he thought pulling the 2.5MOA 23 round group into 1.5MOA would be a reasonable expectation of his 300 below zero to +300F, and back to room temperature cryo/heat treatment service.

If it doesn't meet a customer's expectation, he offers a money back guaranty. I saw some really glowing testimonials that he e-mailed me, so I'm optimistic. Maybe his service can save me the $700 that would be required to replace this barrel with something likely to perform better. We'll see what happens. I certainly can't ruin a barrel that is not meeting expectations currently.

I have cryoed one factory barrel before- a M70 laredo .300 win mag barrel. That barrel shot ~1.3MOA and after action bedding,lapping, and cryoing, it shot .3MOA with the same ammunition. Whether Cryo brought the groups in or the other work I don't know.

I think Cryo can improve accuracy of factory barrels. According to 300 below Rock River has 1000 barrels treated a week and that seems to suggest improvement is possible.


One of the testimonials that was most interesting was a 223 barrel who's end user shot 53 rounds with 12 different loads and 4 different bullet weights into one 1.49" group at 100 yards without making a sight adjustment. The customer's point? "I've never seen a rifle shoot this many different loads to the same point of impact."

I've also read statements from high end barrel makers who believe Cryo is snake oil, but I think the difference is that their barrels are so good to begin with that they are not good candidates for the service. Krieger of course makes high end barrels and triple cryo treats some of them so it's easier to send a barrel and pay $110, than to try to prove Cryo will help without sending it.

 

[elfster1234]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

not sure if i would say i need to be "called out" or not, but was just trying to help the guy... nice to know the background. he is a very nice person from what i can tell from his posts.. nice to know.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobcatT870</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to be a dck and call some of you guys out....but Griffin was an army sniper, and he builds suppressors. I think he knows the fundamentals of shooting, breathing, heartbeat, and everything else that it takes to drive the rifle. There is something else going on here.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elfster1234</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also,,,, well for 100yards that is, I'll usually just make a perfect black dot (about the size of a nickel / just under a quarter)... 3/4" to 1" black dot stickers work great, but there is nothing wrong with just making a nice perfect 3/4" black dot with a black magic marker on regular white paper.. I like to use huge 2'x3' (i get it for free which is nice) heavy duty paper with 6 total of these black dots on it, then mark what my 5shot groupings where done with (LMT, 168grn sierra matchking BTHP, BR-2 primer, 41grns varget, blah blah blah) with each 5shot grouping on the paper... I keep all of these target posters for future reference now that i'm reloading. It is really nice to see what grouping was done with what ammo load specs. Will make sure my scope is @ 100yard paralax setting, crank scope all the way up and back it off just a tad maybe, and set the 3/4" black dot dead center like a milldot... Will use a half ass'd home made sand bag on the back buttstock from time to time also. Running a semi auto for accuracy really is a skill. All about trigger pull, breathing, heatbeat awareness, and recoil follow thru on these semi autos.

Not saying you dont have a lemon as I've been there and done that with about 2 other rifles in my day.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The crown of the barrel wasn't cut.

I am going to switch scope rings, as we have our own rings that will be done soon. That will allow that to be tested. I would be surprised if anything changed.

I agree the autoloaders do throw fliers occasionally. The better guns just throw them closer. I've heard buffer springs can improve that but don't know anything about it.

Maybe when my suppressor is done that will help the barrel shoot more accurately? Sometimes the weight stabilizes the barrel harmonics. </div></div></div></div> </div></div>

 

[Conrad101st]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Maybe just buy a used CL barrel from somebody who went to steel would be a much cheaper option than trying to untart a lemon.

Then you could cut your old barrel to 13 for a blaster.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

My barrel is already profiled to .775" near the muzzle for the RSTA muzzle device so a new barrel would also have to be profiled.

Picking up a CL 16" barrel from someone who has upgraded is a good idea. I considered that, but then also thought, the group of people most likely to upgrade are those with the worst 16" barrels to begin with. So maybe it would be like swapping for the same thing.

I've had an unfortunate history of 2 barrel issues with LMT (one 10.5" with a .011" out of concentric thread), and this one. My brother had another issue with a bad chamber that rendered his piston gun incapable of functioning in semi-automatic (he has received a warranty replacement but hasn't been able to get out to confirm it works yet). Those are really my only 3 experiences with LMT barrels, so my confidence in making a purchase is probably lower than the probability of improving this barrel.

LMT's strong point seems to be in quality parts other than barrels. The rifle is a solid build and is reliable. The LMT is a good platform. Which is interesting because my experience with DPMS is the opposite. DPMS makes good to great barrels for low cost, but other parts are inferior (things like extractors, sights, rail systems, subbing 6061 for 7075 etc).

Cryogenic treatments are an oddity in that there are massive success stories and then a lot of naysayers who seem to have formulated opinions without any experience positive or negative. After hours of searching and reading, I'm beginning to think the process is best used prior to machining to reduce barrel scrap rates, and also as a fix for poor quality barrels that are fully manufactured. Those categories seem to be where the highest success rates are obtained.

 

[trident1982]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Hopefully you can find a remedy Griffin, and nobody can blame you for not trying to at least root out your problems.

Ultimately if I were you and still having problems, I would unload the MWS onto the second hand market where it will still fetch most likely top dollar, and then give one of the other quality .308 gas guns a try. Life's too short to chase one bad rifle when there is so many other good ones out there.

The only single problem I have with my MWS is that is just eats up so much real estate. I went balls out the first 6 months of owning mine seeking the edges of it's performance envelope, with the last 3 of those months working nothing but 800-1038yd steel. Now it's rather boring to shoot my MWS if I don't have it on a 1k range. So in short, just cause your 911 twin turbo will do 195mph the day you buy it, doesn't mean you have to drive 193mph back to the house....savior the flavor gents

 

[Yama Arashi]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Has LMT made any tweaks to the chambers?

Lately I've seen all the chrome lined 16" and 20" barrels marked 7.62 NATO, and the receivers marked CAL. 7.62X51MM, whereas older versions are marked .308

The consensus has generally been that 7.62 is good to go in 308 marked receivers, but not vice-versa, although the latest LMT manual and brochures state "7.62x51mm chambers allowing both NATO and commercial .308 Win to be fired."

Another user asked the question back on page 21, but no one responded:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boomfab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like the new MWS's are marked 7.62x51 instead of .308 win. When did this start?</div></div>

You can sort of make it out here in trident's photo, just below the LMT logo on the receiver, and on the barrel as well:

Thank you kindly.