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Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

mattsnuked

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Nov 5, 2007
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Making 6.5 Creedmoor brass

A couple of people have pm’d me asking how I form .308 brass to make the 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge. Below are the steps I take to make it. In no way am I claiming to be an expert on this matter and I’m still testing the original lot of brass I did this with. I hope others will chime in with their experience in brass forming to improve this process. In the steps below I used a used .308 Lapua case for the write up. If you decide to try this it is at your own risk.

1. I run the 308 case through the full length Creedmoor die without the decapping unit in the die. I personally like the RCBS dies compared to the Hornady die set. I use Imperial sizing die wax for the entire process. You may notice some small dimpling on the body of the brass and the neck looks a little bowed afterwards but when I fire formed them this straightened out.
The case will come out as shown below.
1stsizing.jpg


2. The neck will be extremely long and will have to be trimmed. The inner neck diameter is about 6mm at this time and I use this size pilot when trimming the brass down to 1.910.
3. Slightly deburr and chamfer.
4. Then I run the case through the full length die with the decapping unit installed.
5. At this point you have what appears to be a basic Creedmoor case but I feel the neck is too thick averaging around .025.
secongsizing.jpg

6. I then go through the neck turning process and turn the necks down to .015 which is about the same thickness of factory CM brass. Taking off .010 in one pass is probably not the best idea which might result in working the brass too hard. A couple step down turns would be best I’ve been told.
neckturning.jpg

7.I resize the brass a final time since the mandrel for the neck turning opened up the neck.
8.The final stage in my process is to fire form and you’re good to go.

I hope all who see the lack in brass availability for the Creedmoor see this as an alternative not the solution, for now. I have no experience in annealing brass so I don’t know where in this process you would do it or if it is needed.

I currently am using Remington 308 brass for this experiment and am through two firings with no issues. I only did 30 cases to start with.
In my rifle the weight charge of 41.8gr of H4350 pushing a 142 SMK yields a velocity around 2760 fps. I have a 28” Kreiger barrel.
Using the Remington 308 brass and the same weight charge/ bullet combo yields an increase of 40-50 fps.

Here is a diagram I pulled of the web.
6_5creedmoor.jpg


Thanks all.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

This is what I have been looking for. Any info on setting up the creedmoor die to resize a .308 without any creedmoor brass to set the depth of the die. I have 50 pieces of lapua .308 I want to resize. Also this should work fine in a gas gun no ?

Thanks
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

Some here may know for sure, But the creedmoor may run into some problems with semi auto cycle. I believe the Grendal is set for this, OAL is shorter and less neck angle. I think a creedmoor semi would be nice. Maybe slow?

thanks for sizing info!
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

I was wrong looks like you can even get a production DPMS.

I will now go back into "here to learn mode".
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thekskid</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Any info on setting up the creedmoor die to resize a .308 without any creedmoor brass to set the depth of the die. I have 50 pieces of lapua .308 I want to resize.

Thanks </div></div>

I would probably just set the die to barely bump the shell plate and then go from there. Once you have some fired brass you could fine tune the die.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

By the way these cases worked well in a prototype POF 6.5 CM semi auto.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

Thanks! guys

I have not found near this much info in such detail anywhere else. This is great I'm tired of waiting on hornady not to mention lapua is a better brass.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

I talked to our Hornady guy this weekend while at a match and they said 6.5 brass is rolling down the line. The best place to look first when looking for anything 6.5 is at Creedmoor sports!!
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

Hey Mattsnuked! I was going to follow up per your PM to post this.......but I then got distracted……for two weeks….lol.

If this is duplication for anyone – sorry. Anyway, here’s how I form CM from Lapua .308 and what I look for while doing so:

Lapua .308 to 6.5 Creedmoor Conversion -
(LR-308 rifle platform, 26” Krieger 1:8 bbl)

The 30 T/C is the parent case - but the entire .308 family works perfectly for this conversion. I love Lapua, and their .308 is cheaper than .243 – so I stayed with it. The end product is far superior, IMHO, to anything else I have shot in my rifle. I will admit that the Hornady GenII stuff was excellent, but Lapua is still king for me.

**Disclaimer - My process is somewhat of a PITA. However, I’ve tried about a dozen permutations of the below process, and this is the only one of which that I am able to get repeatable, match-accuracy from - even before the cases are fire-formed. Ergo, it’s worth it to me. Also – I recommend using the exact same measuring device (calipers, mic, etc) for all of the set up and final measuring for safety and consistency.

(In my tool list, I list specific brands not as an endorsement – just to explain what I have.)

Tools
1) Hornady case (shoulder) gauge – D - .400”. (it takes up 2” exactly on my calipers)
2) Forster chamfering tool for outside neck chamfering
3) VLD inside neck chamfering tool
4) dial/digital calipers/micrometer
5) Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor match (bushing) dies with .288 bushing (brass will spring back to .290)
6) Lee 7-08 FL size die, modified by facing it down to 2.500” (overall length) so that I can “pre-bump” the .308 shoulders back to VERY close-to-fire-formed Creedmoor case dimension, (ie push the shoulder back about .050”)
7) Hornady One-Shot (I use that sh*t on everything=)
8) Case trimmer
9) Forster neck-turning tool (I turned down a .30 cal mandrel to .2665”-.267”
10) My “Lapua #2 Expander Mandrel” is .2675” (I ground 3 different ones)
11) Sinclair caseholder, power screwdriver model
12) Harbor Freight Mini Chopsaw (best $25 investment I ever made)
13) 6.5 mm nylon brush impregnated with 0000 steel wool (I’ve found the nylon actually lasts longer than the phosphor bronze brushes)
14) Redding Case Neck Gauge with custom ground mandrel (.2665”)
15) drill(s)/power screwdriver, etc
16) Forster Co-Ax press
*If you need to make your own expander mandrels, you can chuck one up in a small lathe/drill press or hand drill and use stones, sandpaper and finally a leather lap/strop for the final dimension. Even by hand, it is possible to hand-stone one with nothing but a cordless drill– even a drill that has a little runout. By holding the drill and the workpiece, your hands will move with the runout of the turning device. It’s time consuming, and you need to measure frequently, but if you have any “touch” at all, it’s do-able.
**Please consider any measurements in here as a “guide”, rather than a rule. YMMV

MY CRITICAL MEASUREMENTS FOR SET-UP
*.003”-.004” neck/chamber clearance (loaded round neck OD vs fired case neck OD)
*.003”-.004” neck tension on loaded bullet (I don’t crimp rifle rounds – even on a gas gun)

.014”- .015” brass (per side) (Hornady CM brass is .001”-.002” thinner at the neck)

PROCESS
The first few processes are the same as they are for any other reloading session – primer pocket ritual du jour/inspection and you can weigh them if you want to (I don’t).

I will say that I have recently started annealing the Lapua before I run it through the first die. The brass is much easier to work, and it forms a better shoulder.

Although I don’t see any real benefit to it anymore, I used to over-chamfer the case mouth to about half its normal outside diameter and knock the burrs off the inside. My logic was that this would give the case a better start on centering smoothly. However, in my last batch, I omitted this step and can’t tell any difference.

Next, I hit it with lube and……...
.
1) Then, I run them through the 7-08 die (without expander) and bump the 20 degree, .308 Win. shoulder back about .050”. For me, they measure 3.559” gross and 1.559” on my calipers with the Hornady shoulder gauge attached (remember the 2” the gauge takes up)
2) Next, I run them through the 6.5 CM Match Die WITHOUT a bushing, and WITH the Lapua #2 mandrel noted above, and I bump them to the final 30-degree shoulder and length. Mandrel diameter is set such that the springback allows the neck reamer to take the inside of the necks down to fresh brass on all sides. I have experimented with reamer guides, whether to spin the reamer or the case, fast or slow – you name it, I’ve tried it. The fastest way for me is to spin the case in a Sinclair caseholder and hold the reamer in a small T-Handle tap holder I have. The extra neck length provides a bit more guidance, and I can “eyeball” the reamer in straight enough.
3) Ream the case necks. You can find myriad opinions on why you should neck up/down based upon creating a doughnut on the inside or outside of the case. It doesn’t matter much to me because I ream AND turn the necks because: 1) I’m anal about my brass/precision loads; and, 2) It produces the desired results for me.
4) Cut necks in “Mini Chop Saw”. I used some Fast Steel putty and a washer to create a jig on which I can quickly and accurately index cases, then cut ‘em in about 2-3 seconds a case. It’s a HUGE timesaver. Next, I trim them to 1.915”, and chamfer the inside/outside of the necks. (FYI – I stole mini-saw idea from an article I read in Precision Shooting awhile back, and I wish I could take credit for it myself. If you form brass a bunch – go buy one of these gizmos asap.)
5) Hit the inside of the casenecks with the steel wool/brush really quickly – just enough to smooth the necks after reaming.
6) Neck turn – I rest my elbows on my knees, cordless drill with Sinclair caseholder and case in right hand, Forster H.O.T. in the left. I lightly spray some One-Shot on the neck-turning mandrel on about every 2-3 cases. I mention the knees/elbows position because it allows my body to negate the runout that will be present (alluded to above). It works for me.
7) Inspection – I lightly brush necks again, then I use a Redding Case Neck Gauge and check thickness on the indicator. If neck cuts are consistent, I can get the needle on the indicator to barely wiggle a bit, and I don’t accept anything over .001” total. If the neck is out of spec, I will re-turn and re-check. On my last batch of 100, I had exactly 8 cases that did not make it due to concentricity issues, and they are still within .001”-.002” per side – still OK to practice with.
8) Final Sizing – with the .288 bushing and brass that is .014”-.015” per side, the final, sized brass will O.D. @ .290”, and will give me up to .004” neck tension. (I don’t have any problems with the bullets being seated further into the cases due to recoil)
9) Treat as “Starting Load” – Less case capacity. I reduced my charge by .3 gr and I still get better velocity.

***Final Note*** I make sure that any case I am going to fire-form fits as snugly (headspace) in my chamber as possible and still gives perfect reliability. I do this to avoid misfires and poorly formed brass.

FIRE FORMING
Many theories abound on this subject, so I won’t debate them here. What I WILL say is that I can take my freshly-made brass, make match rounds with them, shoot them for groups and could scarcely tell the difference between those groups and groups shot with fire-formed rounds. So, if you have a method that works for you – use it!. This whole process is, for me, simply an exercise in making Lapua .308 brass as dimensionally correct (externally anyway) to 6.5 Creedmoor as possible.

I've done about 700 Lapuas in .308, about 500 each of Winchester .243/.308, and about 50 Remmy .308. Minor brass variations change the mandrels I use, but the process is very much the same for all .308s. .243s are a little different. Any questions, please feel free to PM me and I will do my best to help!


Precision Matters!
Carlton
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

Carlton, that's awesome.

I'm going to definetly look into the mini chop saw, thats the step that seem to take the longest (well one of them) and heats up the brass the most.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

Roger that, and you bet. I joke about the thing being a cheapy - but in 20 years of reloading, I have NEVER come across such an ingenius use for a tool that costs so little. I'm seriously thinking about manufacturing some indexable shell holders for this specific use on this specific little saw. Even with the "shoulder stop"/washer I have on it, I can get within about .005" of desired cut every time. Did I mention I HATE trimming brass?
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

I tried running new Win 7/08 brass thru the Redding body die and the case wall wrinkles up just below the shoulder and I was using Imperial Die Sizing Lube. I have a RCBS 7BR forming die set so I used the first forming die which pushes the shoulder back, ya gotta kinda eyeball how far, but it works, Right now I'm making 50rds from rem .308 BR brass, these form easier and I'm interested in seeing how the small primer will work.

Tom

If your looking for the Redding Match Neck Die set try www.gunstop.com. Got mine from there in 2 days, not the cheapest place, but he has the dies in stock.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

A lot of good information there. I decided to try forming some this afternoon. I only did 5 cases to see how they did and they came out good. I used hornady spray lube on the outside and brushed the inside of the neck with the white mica powder. No dimples that I could tell. I trimmed them down to length & chamfered the edges. I am gonna check again tomorrow evening but I don't think I will have to turn the necks as they checked at .015. I am gonna check w/ a diferent set of calipers.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

I formed a few cases from new and resized lapua .308 brass trimmed to length resized etc. I made a dummy round loaded it into my dpms creedmoor and I could not get the charge handle to remove the round. All measurements are to spec etc. An unloaded case did the same thing I had to pry the bolt open to get them out. Spent all day no luck!
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

I have read on some other forums about using 22-250 brass to make the 6.5 creedmoor. Has anyone here tried it yet?
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

Hornady tech recommended use the C .375 bushing for checking headspace I may go that route.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

My friend DMiller and I have had good luck making 6.5 Creedmoor brass out of .308 brass using a very similar process.

Thanks for the post!!
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

Seems like a lot of jackass work, I'm glad I went 260rem
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems like a lot of jackass work, I'm glad I went 260rem </div></div>

Hey thinks for your 0.2 cents, that helps allot.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

Midwayusa had some 140's up yesterday, a guy on gunbroker.com is selling some for less than 24 bucks a box! if you want some brass this could be your chance.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

For the record I think the 6.5cm is an awsome round, but the single source of brass is turn off for me, I don't have the time to make that brass out of 7-08 or any other brass in the 308 family because I work 12 hr shifts and have a 1 hour one way commute, my off days are better spent with family and/or chores, around my house, reloading and shooting almost always come last, so if I'm happy on my choice pisses yall off, oh well!
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattsnuked</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Potterman, 7-08 and 243 brass did not work for me either. </div></div>

I've found that only RP .243 works. WW just crumples the shoulder, even with virgin brass and additional annealing.

Virgin Prvi .308 brass has worked wonderfully, and has surprisingly consistent brass with extremely tight primer pockets.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

A link to the jig I made for that little cut off saw for case trimming.

Uses a Lee case trimmer base.

Case Trimmer Jig
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems like a lot of jackass work, I'm glad I went 260rem </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the record I think the 6.5cm is an awsome round, but the single source of brass is turn off for me, I don't have the time to make that brass out of 7-08 or any other brass in the 308 family because I work 12 hr shifts and have a 1 hour one way commute, my off days are better spent with family and/or chores, around my house, reloading and shooting almost always come last, so if I'm happy on my choice pisses yall off, oh well! </div></div>

You state that you chose 260 and you always bag on CM but if you opened your eyes long enough to research with an OPEN MIND you would see that the CM only has a single source of brass but that's a GOOD source of inexpensive brass. You really don't have this option with 260... and by that I mean buy a quality 260 brass that's ready to go out of the box w/o any other steps that's not super expensive. Nosler fits this bill but runs about $1 per brass case which is pretty spendy when compared to other options. Remy brass in 260 sucks but none of this even gets to my primary point... just a bit of a side point really. My main point that you would benefit from since you're so busy is the fact that HORNADY OFFERS A VERY GOOD MATCH ROUND FROM THE FACTORY THAT'S AFFORDABLE. Think about that for a moment if you have such little time. How much time to spend reloading? What if you didn't have to spend ANY time reloading if you didn't want to? Sure, you can still reload if you choose to (Redding makes the same dies for 6.5CM as they do 260REM) but of 260 and 6.5CM the Creedmoor is the ONLY one to have factory support in the form of factory match ammunition. Remington made a couple half assed hunting rounds but other than that they abandoned what could otherwise be a phenomenal round. Hornady has made the decision to design the Creedmoor AND support it fully since day one. For me this is FAR better than your 'multiple brass source' choice. It's less than $25 for a box of 25 and has already proven to be VERY accurate and consistent ammunition. Guys are winning competitions all over the country with it so it's no slouch at all. The best part is when you're done you have a VERY high quality once fired brass to work with if you wish to custom tailor the load to your particular rifle's liking but at least the option is still there to shoot factory match ammo if you wish. For a guy as busy as yourself I don't know how that isn't a selling point.

Every time I see you post concerning 260 v 6.5CM you are always bashing the CM round and the funny part is that the end result is almost identical between the two so the louder you say that 260 is SO much better the more foolish you make yourself look. The only differences is in ow they arrive at that point and you sound more like a 260 fanboy than an individual who has researched the differences between the two. You have 260 and it works for you, we get that. So why do you feel the need to even post in Creedmoor threads then? I don't expect you to throw away your 260 stuff to start over with CM with the end result will still be the same but for those who are at a starting point or looking into an all new caliber it's just as viable an option.

Why is it that whenever I see a Creedmoor thread I can ALWAYS count on YOU to be bashing it any chance you get? If you hate it so much why do you even click on threads talking about it? Why not just go shoot your 260 and leave everyone else alone? Everyone is annoyed by your posts and they never lend anything of any use to anyone but yourself so why not just go shoot?
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... but for those who are at a starting point or looking into an all new caliber it's just as viable an option.</div></div>

that's what I'm doing
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
. . . but for those who are at a starting point or looking into an all new caliber it's just as viable an option. </div></div>

I probably would have gone with the .260 Rem. had I not gotten a great deal on a rifle already chambered in 6.5mm Creedmoor. Having shot the Creedmoor, and seen the results from factory ammunition, I definitely recognize the advantage of having a round for which I can buy match ready ammunition when I don't have time to hand load.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

Thought I'd share my experience with this...

I have a steady supply of once fired Hornady Match 308 brass from work. So, I figured I would give this a go. While it is a bit time consuming, the results are great so far. I think it is worth doing if you enjoy the time at the loading bench.

My process:

After removing the primers and swaging the primer pockets (yes, this brass is crimped. I guess Hornady is doing that for TAP heading to LE market) I lube the brass well and run it through a Hornady FL die with the button removed. This goes well, but I noticed about 30% of the cases have a slight "ripple" just below the shoulder. Nothing fire forming wont remove.

Once sized, I trimmed the brass with a Wilson trimmer (the necks are really long after the initial resizing. See the photo) and chamfer.

My chamber is right at .295 and the brass is real close to this after running it through the die. I figured it best to take it down a bit and make the necks right. Using a K&M neck turner (with reamer mandrel), I processed the necks just enough to clean them up. Final result with seated bullet gives me a neck diameter of .294.

The photo shows, from left to right: a 308 case, FL sized (you can see the ripple a little), trimmed and turned, ready to go, and fire formed case.

308to65.jpg



I did not want to mess with fire forming unless I was shooting accurately as I did it. Well, seems that it accuracy is not much of an issue during the fire forming. The attached picture were two back to back groups (using 40.5 H4350 and 142 Sierras) at 300 yards. They shoot as good as my factory brass. I can't wait to shoot it now that it is complete. I will follow up when I reload it the first time. My rifle is an AI AE Mk II w/a Bartlein barrel turned by Accurate Ordnance (they rock by the way).

Fireforminggroups.jpg


Just my .02

Be safe,

Justin
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

Anyone ever see the SNL skit for the "home headache test"?
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

Haven't tried it myself, but read an article where the author was fireforming 22-250 brass into 6.5 cm by using a fast burning powder, cream of wheet filler, and topping off with a cleaning patch to hold it all in place. anyone tried this?

John
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hondo64d</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Haven't tried it myself, but read an article where the author was fireforming 22-250 brass into 6.5 cm by using a fast burning powder, cream of wheet filler, and topping off with a cleaning patch to hold it all in place. anyone tried this?

John </div></div>

It works though Cream of Wheat is reported to be EXTREMELY hard on the barrel. You're better off sizing up to 7mm, back to 6.5 with a false shoulder, anneal them, and shooting whatever cheapest 6.5mm bullets you can get (PRVI's come to mind) and load them a little light so you have less chance of splitting necks.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JGorski</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why piss around with 308 brass, just buy the creed brass, jeeze!

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/528000/hornady-reloading-brass-65-creedmoor-box-of-50
</div></div>

No doubt, why spend 30 min on each piece of brass when Hornady is pretty good brass. Maybe if you're shooting benchrest with the 6.5 Creed but I hope your not. Sounds like pissing in the wind to me.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

CM brass has been out of stock everywhere since late January 2012 until late July 2012. As soon as I found it in stock I bought 700 pieces of it so I'm good for a long while, but for those who don't have the means to go spend $400 on a pile of brass and need some or it's out of stock and you REALLY need it short of buying factory ammo... I can see what the need to make some is.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

Also, this thread was started over two years ago when there was a brass shortage in the beginning stages of the Creedmoor life.

One reason for making your own brass is...

Shit, I don't need a reason. I enjoy the process.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

[/quote]

It works though Cream of Wheat is reported to be EXTREMELY hard on the barrel...[/quote]

I'd like to hear the reasoning for this.

I can't imagine shooting COW down the barrel with 15 grains of Unique even comes close to firing an incredibly tight fitting copper bullet down the bore at around 3000 FPS and 60K PSI.
 
Re: Making 6.5 Creemoor brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rcamuglia</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It works though Cream of Wheat is reported to be EXTREMELY hard on the barrel. </div></div>

I'd like to hear the reasoning for this.

I can't imagine shooting COW down the barrel with 15 grains of Unique even comes close to firing an incredibly tight fitting copper bullet down the bore at around 3000 FPS and 60K PSI. </div></div>

It's not hard on the barrel whatsoever. People have been using this method for decades and decades.