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RIFLE BUILD RANT

tylerw02

tylerw02

Major Hide Member
Full Member
Minuteman
    • May 16, 2011
    2,327
    128
    Advance, MO
    If all you did was put a base, rings and scope on a fucking rifle, you didn't BUILD shit. If you throw this contraption into a stock or chassis, you didn't BUILD shit. Quit saying you're building a rifle. You didn't...GAP, Surgeon, Remington, SAC, they BUILD rifles. You changing out your Savage Tupperware for a B&C, mounting EGW base, Weaver rings, and Falcon Menace is not building a rifle.


    /rant
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You changing out your Savage Tupperware for a B&C, mounting EGW base, Weaver rings, and Falcon Menace is not building a rifle.


    /rant </div></div>

    So, in the interest in understanding your rant, what does the above quoted text denote? Is it an assembly job, a piecing project? What do you call it?

    In the same vein, do you consider companies like OCC chopper or other shops that don't make their own frames and other parts in house not to be builders? What about knife makers who don't forge their blades by hand and hammer but machine cut out blanks?

    Are there certain steps that one has to take for it to be considered a build? does that mean machining metal off of something or threading something is considered a build but bedding a stock or changing out a trigger is not a build? Curious minds want to know
    smile.gif
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    I would say if you chamber and install the barrel on the action and bed said assembly in a stock, then yes you built that rifle. Although most people usually say that they had a rifle built by so 'n so.
    When I see someone state that they built a rifle I usually assume that they had GAP or Surgeon build it for them. I rank this as one of the lesser things in life to worry about.
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    I don't know. If you put new siding on your house, does it mean you built it?
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know. If you put new siding on your house, does it mean you built it? </div></div>

    That would be considered a home improvement or even scheduled maintenance. what do you call it when someone assembles different pieces of a rifle into a new and different rifle?
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    If you use a barrel blank I still say you didn't build a rifle. You built a musket. The barrel manufacturer built the rifle
    laugh.gif
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    In the purest sense of the word,OCC are assemblers not builders. Jesse james paul yaffee jesse rook and others are fabricators and builders. They build bikes from metal tubing,sheet metal etc. I understand your rant,but is it worth ranting over?
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anthony box</div><div class="ubbcode-body">first world problems? </div></div>

    I got 99 problems but a rifle build ain't one
    laugh.gif
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    I kinda side with Tyler, though not as emotionally.
    Tyler, what constitutes a build?
    What is your definition of a "Custom" rifle?
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    Its not emotion, I'm just warning people to not make themselves rediculous.

    Its a custom rifle, in my book, if it is something that cannot be simply bolted together by off the shelf retail parts without altering them. You built the rifle if it wasn't a rifle before, but now is, after your work. If you modify something that is already a rifle, you've done just that, modified it.

    Rifles are often built that aren't custom. Look at Surgeon's inventory. They were not custom built for the buyer, but Surgeon did build the rifle.
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    Main Entry: build

    Part of Speech: verb

    Definition: construct structure

    Synonyms: assemble, bring about, carpenter, cast, compile, compose, contrive, engineer, erect, evolve, fabricate, fashion, fit together, forge, form, frame, jerry-build, knock together, make, manufacture, model, prefabricate, produce, put together, put up, raise, rear, reconstruct, sculpture, set up, superstruct, synthesize, throw together, throw up


    You're arguing the english language and you're calling people who take a barreled action, trigger assembly, stock, scope base, rings, optic, and other parts and turn those parts into a rifle ridiculous.

    Custom means you changed something to suit your own tastes/preferences.

    I understand what you're getting at but according to the language we've been speaking since birth you're fighting a losing argument.

    Anyone can turn around and say that any number of "Custom Builders" aren't that at all because they didn't forge the barrel, action and all the other metal parts themselves but did some "custom" work to finish those parts and then assembled the rifle with those parts.
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    This wins the Mayan End of World reward for most pointless fucking thread posted during human existence.
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    If you want to plays semantics, beware, synonyms are not the same as a definition
    wink.gif


    It was already a rifle BEFORE adding a scope, was it not? It was already a rifle BEFORE changing the stock, was it not?

    Meanwhile, the custom builders do "build" a rifle if it was not a rifle before the did their work. See what the ATF has to say about that.
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want to plays semantics, beware, synonyms are not the same as a definition
    wink.gif


    It was already a rifle BEFORE adding a scope, was it not? It was already a rifle BEFORE changing the stock, was it not?

    Meanwhile, the custom builders do "build" a rifle if it was not a rifle before the did their work. See what the ATF has to say about that. </div></div>

    If you would like I can start copying and pasting the definitions as well. We can also start splitting hairs to the point of "Well since you didn't create the matter that was used to construct the elements necessary to the building of the components blah blah blah"

    It doesn't matter what <span style="font-style: italic">anyone</span> presents to your argument. You're entrenched in what you feel about it and no one is gonna change your mind.

    Pointless thread lol
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    But North, that would be a legal definition. Would you care to investigate? You sure seem entrenched in you position.

    I changed the grips on my 1911. Guess I can tell everybody I built it now, per your standards.
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its not emotion, I'm just warning people to not make themselves rediculous.</div></div>

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want to plays semantics, beware, synonyms are not the same as a definition
    wink.gif
    </div></div>

    Yes, I agree. Playing semantics is rediculous.



    ...
    cool.gif
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But North, that would be a legal definition. Would you care to investigate? You sure seem entrenched in you position.

    I changed the grips on my 1911. Guess I can tell everybody I built it now, per your standards.

    </div></div>

    Of course you didn't build it. It's now custom. HAHAHAHA!
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    For sale: custom 1911
    wink.gif


    If I put the factory grips back on, is it now non-custom?
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For sale: custom 1911
    wink.gif


    If I put the factory grips back on, is it now non-custom? </div></div>

    Since it would be returned to factory set up we will call that stock.
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its not emotion, I'm just warning people to not make themselves rediculous.

    Its a custom rifle, in my book, if it is something that cannot be simply bolted together by off the shelf retail parts without altering them. You built the rifle if it wasn't a rifle before, but now is, after your work. If you modify something that is already a rifle, you've done just that, modified it.

    Rifles are often built that aren't custom. Look at Surgeon's inventory. They were not custom built for the buyer, but Surgeon did build the rifle. </div></div>

    So if I understand you correctly, what you just said was :If I buy a trigger which by itself isn't a rifle, and I buy a chassis/stock that too isn't a rifle and so on with the scope and other parts and use my gunsmithing abilities and knowledge to install all of the component parts and in the process I tweak things here and there so it all fits together and works to my liking, it's good to go?

    Last I checked, all parts are off the shelf retail (unless you are a dealer/distrubutor) even barrel blanks get bought unless you make the part in house yourself.

    It could be argued that all anyone does is assemble component parts together into a weapon, some just start with more rudimentary pieces or modify the pieces more than others to achieve the same ends.

    Custom made vs commercialy available is where I think the distinction is made ,much like buying a pair of pants off the shelf vs having a tailor make them for you. In the end they are both pants, someone assembled the component parts into a final product but the custom made ones are made to order to more exact specs. But I digress as we are not talking about custom work but the term "build" and how you have a problem with how others use the word and your definition of it.

    As stated above, I think you have an issue with the English language. Now if someone said "yeah, I'm manufacturing my rifle" instead of the word "build" then I think you may have grounds to question their use of the term.
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NorthernBorn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For sale: custom 1911
    wink.gif


    If I put the factory grips back on, is it now non-custom? </div></div>

    Since it would be returned to factory set up we will call that stock. </div></div>

    Exactly. It's a bolt-on part like a stock, scope, etc. Swapping grip panels on a 1911 doesn't constitute building a 1911. Nor does swapping a stock.
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    No, papa, that's not it. Was it a rifle when you started? Or was it a receiver? If the store alters pants, say hems the legs, do they have a claim that they built them? Usually, you would say they "altered" them. Does the guy with raw materials that turns denim and thread into pants "build" them?

    If I put siding on my house, I didn't suddenly build it. If I put new wheels on a car, I didn't build the car. If I put a new stock on my rifle, I didn't build a rifle.
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    Entertaining thread. Although I didn't grow or mill the grain, or bake it into the bread, grow the lettuce, or the tomato, whip the mayo, or even flense the bacon from a porcine Northern Idaho split-hoof beauty, I do believe it's time to go into the kitchen, because ...

    SlLlm.jpg


    laugh.gif
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    So what did I do Tyler?

    I bought the action, barrel, stock, trigger, and all the other components. I had the barrel threaded, chambered, and installed on the action by my gunsmith. I did the bolt and action work myself and put all the components together.

    Did I build my rifle?
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, papa, that's not it. Was it a rifle when you started? Or was it a receiver? If the store alters pants, say hems the legs, do they have a claim that they built them? Usually, you would say they "altered" them. Does the guy with raw materials that turns denim and thread into pants "build" them?

    If I put siding on my house, I didn't suddenly build it. If I put new wheels on a car, I didn't build the car. If I put a new stock on my rifle, I didn't build a rifle. </div></div>

    So it sounds to me like you're wrapped around the barrel, action and bolt part of the gun and everything else is erector set bolt on stuff. Is that a correct assumption?
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical Sasquatch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This wins the Mayan End of World reward for most pointless fucking thread posted during human existence. </div></div>
    Sorry Squatch,
    The Dick's Spoorting Goods top predator bash, and the Christmas bully threads by far outweigh the stupidity of this one.
    Tyler, you're on your own, I'm out!
    laugh.gif
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Entertaining thread. Although I didn't grow or mill the grain, or bake it into the bread, grow the lettuce, or the tomato, whip the mayo, or even flense the bacon from a porcine Northern Idaho split-hoof beauty, I do believe it's time to go into the kitchen, because ...

    SlLlm.jpg


    laugh.gif
    </div></div>

    SWEET! I have been a wastewater treatment operator for 25 years...I tell folks I am a Hockeyologist...
    smile.gif
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your smith did, ask the ATF
    wink.gif
    </div></div>

    If I ask the ATF about the business of buying completed firearms, painting them, and reselling them, they will respond that this is considered to be manufacturing. Unless you think that painting = manufacturing, then you might want to find a new referee.

    FWIW, I do my own builds, including barrel work, action truing, stock inletting, and bedding. That doesn't make me superior to the dude who is screwing together a Savage or AR15. I think you need to get off your high horse.
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical Sasquatch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This wins the Mayan End of World reward for most pointless fucking thread posted during human existence. </div></div>
    Sorry Squatch,
    The Dick's Spoorting Goods top predator bash, and the Christmas bully threads by far outweigh the stupidity of this one.
    Tyler, you're on your own, I'm out!
    laugh.gif
    </div></div>

    Snipers Hide: For The Serious Tactical Marksman
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    I agree with Tyler's original post. In my opinion, the level of dedication required to take an untrued action and barrel blank and turn it into a hammer is entirely different from buying a few special wrenches and some Krylon. The word "build" seems to have lost it's meaning in the last few years.

    However, this isn't the sort of thing I'm going to bust anyone's balls over. There are gunbuilders out there that will tell you I am not one of them because I started with a factory action instead of making one out of dom or barstock.

     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    I think what it really boils down to is that people use the term "build" in the same manner that we use the term Xerox or kleenex even though we might not be using a xerox machine or using a kleenex brand tissue at the time. it is simpler to say "I am building a rifle" than it is to say "I am assembling a rifle" or "I am compiling pieces of a rifle together". I don't think anyone really builds a weapon in the truest sense unless they mine the metal out of the ground,forge it into useable parts and construct said weapon. What almost everyone fall into is a category of assemblers, some with more intricate forms of assembly than others.
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: my human host</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with Tyler's original post. In my opinion, the level of dedication required to take an untrued action and barrel blank and turn it into a hammer is entirely different from buying a few special wrenches and some Krylon. The word "build" seems to have lost it's meaning in the last few years.

    However, this isn't the sort of thing I'm going to bust anyone's balls over. There are gunbuilders out there that will tell you I am not one of them because I started with a factory action instead of making one out of dom or barstock.

    </div></div>

    ^^^Agree
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    If you take a "rifle" than is incapable of discharging a cartridge, for example, installing a barrel blank on a bare action, and make it capable of safely firing said cartridge, threading, chambering, installing and headspacing, then you, my friend, are a rifle builder. If you swap out triggers, stocks, scope bases, ect... you are an assembler. If you take billet steel and aluminum materials and turn it into rifle components, you are a manufacturer.



    homer-3.jpeg
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    While your rant is valid there are worse situations that exist in our "SH World".
    Example: Someone offers for sale a (for sake of example only) GAP rifle. You pay your money and when the "GAP" arrives it is obvious that the quality of GAP had long been abandoned by some fucking hack with a Dremel.
    That would actually make a better rant IMHO. Maybe I should have used it then instead of five years ago when it actually happened to me. Whew, I do feel a little better now. Thanks!
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    I believe the "builder" be it custom or not, is the one that pays the ATF the Tax, and is licensed to build. If you are not paying the TAX as the Fed Law Requires of the builder, you are not the builder/or you are soon to be in prison. You are an assembler or customizer. I may be wrong, the BATF may be able to help out here.
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    I get his rant, but at the same time we all love this sport/lifestyle/addiction and I've never criticized someone for saying they "built" something when they assembled it.

    I could see an actual builder like Moon or Chad Dixon saying "I build, you just assemble" but really who gives a shit?

    I guess the overall importance of the term is really in eye of the beholder.
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pawprint2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe the "builder" be it custom or not, is the one that pays the ATF the Tax, and is licensed to build. If you are not paying the TAX as the Fed Law Requires of the builder, you are not the builder/or you are soon to be in prison. You are an assembler or customizer. I may be wrong, the BATF may be able to help out here. </div></div>

    So when I get my tax stamp back for my MP5 and take 2.5 seconds to push out the rear pin and install my A2 stock.. am I a "builder"?
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    Wrong tax. When you buy a gun, and pay sales tax, again wrong tax, rifles and pistols have fed tax on them usually paid by the distributor and included in their price to dealers.
     
    Re: RIFLE BUILD RANT

    The ATF collects 11% tax on rifles, from the MANUFACTURER (IRS CODE 4181) WHEN THE WEAPON IS SOLD. This is the only time a manufacturer pays the tax in the life of the weapon. The Manufacturer also has to have a license to Manufacturer weapons. If bolting on a stock or a scope or painting a weapon made it a "new weapon", then it should(could) be issued a new ser#, but in fact this does not happen, why? Because it is not a newly manufactured weapon, but one that has been "customized". I'm not the one you have the problem with, but rather the IRS, and the BATF.
     
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