Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
Great thread. Interesting responses. Thanks for posting George.
Great thread. Interesting responses. Thanks for posting George.
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Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
I was just sent a link to this thread.
(Sorry folks been busy and not been on here in a while).
I'm going to offer a different opinion. Not to say who is wrong or right, but my opinion based on my observations with suppressed and unsuppresed gas guns.
Firstly suppressors often increase the accuracy of the gun, either due to increased weight diminishing recoil impulse and/or the reduction of the speed (and turbulence) or the muzzle gasses.
Yes they do increase fouling, most is related to the fact the gun is unlocking while the barrel is not fully evacuated. Those issues are due to unlocking time, and will happen piston or DI, unless a different and longer cam path is used.
You can build guns that run well suppressed and unsuppressed. Can you do it easier with an adjustable gas port - of course you can, and for most commercial applications that make a great amount of sense, and even for some SOF elements where the level of training is such that errors in gas port selection are minimal.
With the advances in muzzle brakes, the ability to suppress or unsuppress easily is a huge benefit, for even LW suppressors add weight and length to the end of a weapon.
Plus suppressed guns are just plain more polite...
I was just sent a link to this thread.
(Sorry folks been busy and not been on here in a while).
I'm going to offer a different opinion. Not to say who is wrong or right, but my opinion based on my observations with suppressed and unsuppresed gas guns.
Firstly suppressors often increase the accuracy of the gun, either due to increased weight diminishing recoil impulse and/or the reduction of the speed (and turbulence) or the muzzle gasses.
Yes they do increase fouling, most is related to the fact the gun is unlocking while the barrel is not fully evacuated. Those issues are due to unlocking time, and will happen piston or DI, unless a different and longer cam path is used.
You can build guns that run well suppressed and unsuppressed. Can you do it easier with an adjustable gas port - of course you can, and for most commercial applications that make a great amount of sense, and even for some SOF elements where the level of training is such that errors in gas port selection are minimal.
With the advances in muzzle brakes, the ability to suppress or unsuppress easily is a huge benefit, for even LW suppressors add weight and length to the end of a weapon.
Plus suppressed guns are just plain more polite...
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
Tag for a Wealth of information!
Tag for a Wealth of information!
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
I totally agree with Kevin's post above. I have a pretty decent selection of AR platforms that I shoot for work and a lot of rounds are put through them and they all run well suppressed.
Just so everyone doesn't worry that a gas gun will not run suppressed below is a picture of one of my 7.62 gas guns that I put roughly 1,000-1,500 rounds through in one day at a demo. The demo started at 08:00 I believe and ended at 17:00 and other than a 30 minute brake the rifle was shot constantly.Every person that shot the gun shot 2 rounds unsuppressed and 3 suppressed unless they wanted to shoot all 5 suppressed. The only thing I did was put some more oil on it about mid day and it ran.
The line was never ending that day and we had a guy jamming magazines for us as we were having people shoot.
I totally agree with Kevin's post above. I have a pretty decent selection of AR platforms that I shoot for work and a lot of rounds are put through them and they all run well suppressed.
Just so everyone doesn't worry that a gas gun will not run suppressed below is a picture of one of my 7.62 gas guns that I put roughly 1,000-1,500 rounds through in one day at a demo. The demo started at 08:00 I believe and ended at 17:00 and other than a 30 minute brake the rifle was shot constantly.Every person that shot the gun shot 2 rounds unsuppressed and 3 suppressed unless they wanted to shoot all 5 suppressed. The only thing I did was put some more oil on it about mid day and it ran.
The line was never ending that day and we had a guy jamming magazines for us as we were having people shoot.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
Im glad I just go through life in ignorant bliss while putting my suppressor on every rifle it will fit on . my ears appreciate it , the neighbors appreciate it and my rifles dont really give a damn . from the age of 6 years old I was raised to clean my firearms after I had them out hunting or shooting so a little bit more grunge isnt gonna change a thing.
Im glad I just go through life in ignorant bliss while putting my suppressor on every rifle it will fit on . my ears appreciate it , the neighbors appreciate it and my rifles dont really give a damn . from the age of 6 years old I was raised to clean my firearms after I had them out hunting or shooting so a little bit more grunge isnt gonna change a thing.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
It's good to have an educated opinion from both ends of the equation now. Haha. I've got a GAP-10 and a Surefire SOCOM can both on order!
It's good to have an educated opinion from both ends of the equation now. Haha. I've got a GAP-10 and a Surefire SOCOM can both on order!
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
I think I said the wrong thing in my last post. I said that I've seen reliability issues in my GAP10 when running suppressed. Actually, I have not seen any issues with the gun itself. It's like a Timex, just keeps on ticking.
What I did have was a few times, after long range sessions where I would chamber a round, not shoot it, try to extract it, and the bullet would stick in the chamber. The case would eject and spill powder everywhere.
I've only had this happen after shooting over 100 rounds suppressed. Perhaps to combat this, I need to run a bore snake through the rifle after so many rounds.
What do you all think?
I think I said the wrong thing in my last post. I said that I've seen reliability issues in my GAP10 when running suppressed. Actually, I have not seen any issues with the gun itself. It's like a Timex, just keeps on ticking.
What I did have was a few times, after long range sessions where I would chamber a round, not shoot it, try to extract it, and the bullet would stick in the chamber. The case would eject and spill powder everywhere.
I've only had this happen after shooting over 100 rounds suppressed. Perhaps to combat this, I need to run a bore snake through the rifle after so many rounds.
What do you all think?
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
The bullet is stuck up in the barrel lands?
Sounds like you might be seating the bullets too long and they are jamming up in the lands? Either that or your case neck tension is too loose and the bullet is jumping up to the lands when the bolts slams shut. Or maybe both.
I don't think running suppressed should cause this issue?
The bullet is stuck up in the barrel lands?
Sounds like you might be seating the bullets too long and they are jamming up in the lands? Either that or your case neck tension is too loose and the bullet is jumping up to the lands when the bolts slams shut. Or maybe both.
I don't think running suppressed should cause this issue?
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
The throats on these are really tight. Because of that it might just be that there's enough fouling to cause them to stick after so many rounds or maybe carbon deposits are flaking on to the bullet when it chambers? I don't think that the seating depth is the issue because I'm fairly certain even at 2.81 OAL it's still jumping to the lands.
Add: Maybe it's just me, but the throat in mine is so tight I can't even use an OAL gauge to find my lands because the bullet is so snug it won't push in far enough unless I seat it and let the bolt drop push it in.
The throats on these are really tight. Because of that it might just be that there's enough fouling to cause them to stick after so many rounds or maybe carbon deposits are flaking on to the bullet when it chambers? I don't think that the seating depth is the issue because I'm fairly certain even at 2.81 OAL it's still jumping to the lands.
Add: Maybe it's just me, but the throat in mine is so tight I can't even use an OAL gauge to find my lands because the bullet is so snug it won't push in far enough unless I seat it and let the bolt drop push it in.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chucky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I totally agree with Kevin's post above. I have a pretty decent selection of AR platforms that I shoot for work and a lot of rounds are put through them and they all run well suppressed.
Just so everyone doesn't worry that a gas gun will not run suppressed below is a picture of one of my 7.62 gas guns that I put roughly 1,000-1,500 rounds through in one day at a demo. The demo started at 08:00 I believe and ended at 17:00 and other than a 30 minute brake the rifle was shot constantly.Every person that shot the gun shot 2 rounds unsuppressed and 3 suppressed unless they wanted to shoot all 5 suppressed. The only thing I did was put some more oil on it about mid day and it ran.
The line was never ending that day and we had a guy jamming magazines for us as we were having people shoot.
</div></div>
If you remember, the first LaRue range day had OBRs scattered down the 1000 yd line, most suppressed with surefires (as did the second range day). Each rifle that day easily ran beyond 3000 rounds.
I didn't see any beat up brass (I picked it up at the end of the day off that green turf). Were the guns dirty? Indeed. I don't know if George intended to say 300 rounds or 3000 rounds, but my experience (which is undoubtedly less than George's) has seen no degradation in accuracy in intervals of greater 3000+ rounds. Although, I will go home and pull off my brake and see what's cookin' in there.
Moreover, I think it's been stated by several respectable shooters in the industry that several rifles have lasted well beyond the 3000 round marker. My OBR only personally had 1900 rounds before I finally cleaned it. I got tired of getting crap on my hands when I took it out of the safe. Perhaps I'm not running mine hard enough. I just deep cleaned my rifle 2 days ago, and based on my cleaning, the gun was no where near seizing up. I'm not saying GAP rifles won't do this, I'm just saying George may not be giving himself nor other rifle builders enough credit for what their guns can do.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chucky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I totally agree with Kevin's post above. I have a pretty decent selection of AR platforms that I shoot for work and a lot of rounds are put through them and they all run well suppressed.
Just so everyone doesn't worry that a gas gun will not run suppressed below is a picture of one of my 7.62 gas guns that I put roughly 1,000-1,500 rounds through in one day at a demo. The demo started at 08:00 I believe and ended at 17:00 and other than a 30 minute brake the rifle was shot constantly.Every person that shot the gun shot 2 rounds unsuppressed and 3 suppressed unless they wanted to shoot all 5 suppressed. The only thing I did was put some more oil on it about mid day and it ran.
The line was never ending that day and we had a guy jamming magazines for us as we were having people shoot.
If you remember, the first LaRue range day had OBRs scattered down the 1000 yd line, most suppressed with surefires (as did the second range day). Each rifle that day easily ran beyond 3000 rounds.
I didn't see any beat up brass (I picked it up at the end of the day off that green turf). Were the guns dirty? Indeed. I don't know if George intended to say 300 rounds or 3000 rounds, but my experience (which is undoubtedly less than George's) has seen no degradation in accuracy in intervals of greater 3000+ rounds. Although, I will go home and pull off my brake and see what's cookin' in there.
Moreover, I think it's been stated by several respectable shooters in the industry that several rifles have lasted well beyond the 3000 round marker. My OBR only personally had 1900 rounds before I finally cleaned it. I got tired of getting crap on my hands when I took it out of the safe. Perhaps I'm not running mine hard enough. I just deep cleaned my rifle 2 days ago, and based on my cleaning, the gun was no where near seizing up. I'm not saying GAP rifles won't do this, I'm just saying George may not be giving himself nor other rifle builders enough credit for what their guns can do.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oleshep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bullet is stuck up in the barrel lands?
Sounds like you might be seating the bullets too long and they are jamming up in the lands? Either that or your case neck tension is too loose and the bullet is jumping up to the lands when the bolts slams shut. Or maybe both.
I don't think running suppressed should cause this issue?
</div></div>
Nope, no land marks on the bullet. And like another poster stated, I doubt that I can even touch the lands given the 2.74" OAL loading. (it's a 6mm Creedmoor). I'll admit that I haven't measured my chamber either though.
I've had this happen twice. Both times were after extended shooting sessions with the suppressor on. Both times, when the bullet was removed from the chamber by the cleaning rod, they were both dark colored, almost looking like they were moly coated or something.
I could have a neck tension issue, which has been on my short list of things to check. I haven't had time to check, as I've been very busy. The last bullet to get stuck was only a couple of weeks ago. It was 14 degrees outside and I had just finished a long range comp. at my local club. A friend wanted to shoot my rifle so I let him pull the trigger on a few rounds. The rifle sat for a few minutes while we talked, then when he ejected the chambered round, that's when the bullet stayed in and powder when everywhere.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oleshep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bullet is stuck up in the barrel lands?
Sounds like you might be seating the bullets too long and they are jamming up in the lands? Either that or your case neck tension is too loose and the bullet is jumping up to the lands when the bolts slams shut. Or maybe both.
I don't think running suppressed should cause this issue?
</div></div>
Nope, no land marks on the bullet. And like another poster stated, I doubt that I can even touch the lands given the 2.74" OAL loading. (it's a 6mm Creedmoor). I'll admit that I haven't measured my chamber either though.
I've had this happen twice. Both times were after extended shooting sessions with the suppressor on. Both times, when the bullet was removed from the chamber by the cleaning rod, they were both dark colored, almost looking like they were moly coated or something.
I could have a neck tension issue, which has been on my short list of things to check. I haven't had time to check, as I've been very busy. The last bullet to get stuck was only a couple of weeks ago. It was 14 degrees outside and I had just finished a long range comp. at my local club. A friend wanted to shoot my rifle so I let him pull the trigger on a few rounds. The rifle sat for a few minutes while we talked, then when he ejected the chambered round, that's when the bullet stayed in and powder when everywhere.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
The large-platform .308 precision gas gun has not yet been perfected to the same point that small-platform .223 ARs have. Add a suppressor and you compound the potential problems to be overcome before the system works flawlessly and accurately. Eventually it will be commonplace, but we're not there yet.
The large-platform .308 precision gas gun has not yet been perfected to the same point that small-platform .223 ARs have. Add a suppressor and you compound the potential problems to be overcome before the system works flawlessly and accurately. Eventually it will be commonplace, but we're not there yet.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
I have read that if you don't have enough case neck tension on some of these heavier guns the force of the bolt slamming shut on the case can jump the bullet forward.
For a quick neck tension check you can mike your case neck OD before pressing a bullet in then mike it after the bullet is seated. The delta is the theoreticial case neck tension.
For a heavy AR I would think you would want arournd .002-.004. I run about .003 for my M1A and M110, and around .002 for my AR15 match guns.
I have read that if you don't have enough case neck tension on some of these heavier guns the force of the bolt slamming shut on the case can jump the bullet forward.
For a quick neck tension check you can mike your case neck OD before pressing a bullet in then mike it after the bullet is seated. The delta is the theoreticial case neck tension.
For a heavy AR I would think you would want arournd .002-.004. I run about .003 for my M1A and M110, and around .002 for my AR15 match guns.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oleshep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have read that if you don't have enough case neck tension on some of these heavier guns the force of the bolt slamming shut on the case can jump the bullet forward.
For a quick neck tension check you can mike your case neck OD before pressing a bullet in then mike it after the bullet is seated. The delta is the theoreticial case neck tension.
For a heavy AR I would think you would want arournd .002-.004. I run about .003 for my M1A and M110, and around .002 for my AR15 match guns. </div></div>
As I said earlier, the throat is so tight that I can't even use an OAL gauge and push the bullet forward enough to reach the lands because of the resistance. I doubt that the bolt slamming shut would increase the OAL and if anything the bullet would get shoved back into the case from not enough neck tension.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oleshep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have read that if you don't have enough case neck tension on some of these heavier guns the force of the bolt slamming shut on the case can jump the bullet forward.
For a quick neck tension check you can mike your case neck OD before pressing a bullet in then mike it after the bullet is seated. The delta is the theoreticial case neck tension.
For a heavy AR I would think you would want arournd .002-.004. I run about .003 for my M1A and M110, and around .002 for my AR15 match guns. </div></div>
As I said earlier, the throat is so tight that I can't even use an OAL gauge and push the bullet forward enough to reach the lands because of the resistance. I doubt that the bolt slamming shut would increase the OAL and if anything the bullet would get shoved back into the case from not enough neck tension.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oleshep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have read that if you don't have enough case neck tension on some of these heavier guns the force of the bolt slamming shut on the case can jump the bullet forward.
For a quick neck tension check you can mike your case neck OD before pressing a bullet in then mike it after the bullet is seated. The delta is the theoreticial case neck tension.
For a heavy AR I would think you would want arournd .002-.004. I run about .003 for my M1A and M110, and around .002 for my AR15 match guns. </div></div>
Thanks. I'll try it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oleshep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have read that if you don't have enough case neck tension on some of these heavier guns the force of the bolt slamming shut on the case can jump the bullet forward.
For a quick neck tension check you can mike your case neck OD before pressing a bullet in then mike it after the bullet is seated. The delta is the theoreticial case neck tension.
For a heavy AR I would think you would want arournd .002-.004. I run about .003 for my M1A and M110, and around .002 for my AR15 match guns. </div></div>
Thanks. I'll try it.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
Alright guys I have been entertaining the idea of getting a can for my Gasser. Here are my concerns. First how much does running a can shorten the lifespan of a barrel, bolt carrier group, and recoil spring? Second when firing suppressed do loads that shoot well with a rifle without a suppressor shoot just as well with a suppressor. Do you have to work up a load for a rifle suppressed? Also, many mention increased carbon fouling in gas guns? Do you need to use different cleaning chemicals when running a suppressor on a gas gun.
Alright guys I have been entertaining the idea of getting a can for my Gasser. Here are my concerns. First how much does running a can shorten the lifespan of a barrel, bolt carrier group, and recoil spring? Second when firing suppressed do loads that shoot well with a rifle without a suppressor shoot just as well with a suppressor. Do you have to work up a load for a rifle suppressed? Also, many mention increased carbon fouling in gas guns? Do you need to use different cleaning chemicals when running a suppressor on a gas gun.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
Maggitas,
Its hard to give you the answer you want without more info.
Without giving up too much proprietary company data, I will say that if you look at a 89-95 Vintage SR-25 you will notice they are tighter than a virgin's XXXX. Those guns broke bolts and where not as reliable suppressed.
Our newer guns are a lot looser and have different angles and materials.
The first barrel on my SR-25EMC was shot probably 75% suppressed. At 15,000rds (give or take a few we used it to blow out a car one night at the last AAC Suppressor Shoot and shot over 3k suppressed that night). Once that barrel was cleaned (thoroughly) it shot under 1MOA, but the gas port was pretty erroded and in combination with the recoil spring the gun functioned erratically suppressed.
I generally clean with MPro7, suppressed or not.
I don't do suppressed or unsuppressed loads, but I suppose you could if you wanted too.
Maggitas,
Its hard to give you the answer you want without more info.
Without giving up too much proprietary company data, I will say that if you look at a 89-95 Vintage SR-25 you will notice they are tighter than a virgin's XXXX. Those guns broke bolts and where not as reliable suppressed.
Our newer guns are a lot looser and have different angles and materials.
The first barrel on my SR-25EMC was shot probably 75% suppressed. At 15,000rds (give or take a few we used it to blow out a car one night at the last AAC Suppressor Shoot and shot over 3k suppressed that night). Once that barrel was cleaned (thoroughly) it shot under 1MOA, but the gas port was pretty erroded and in combination with the recoil spring the gun functioned erratically suppressed.
I generally clean with MPro7, suppressed or not.
I don't do suppressed or unsuppressed loads, but I suppose you could if you wanted too.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The large-platform .308 precision gas gun has not yet been perfected to the same point that small-platform .223 ARs have. Add a suppressor and you compound the potential problems to be overcome before the system works flawlessly and accurately. Eventually it will be commonplace, but we're not there yet. </div></div>
Not sure I totally jive with this. End of the day, the same forces and mechanical operations apply - ie it is just a math problem. I think what we're seeing is the tolerance proclivities of some that value accuracy over all factors.
IMHO
With all due respect (<span style="font-style: italic">Talladega Nights</span>)
Good luck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The large-platform .308 precision gas gun has not yet been perfected to the same point that small-platform .223 ARs have. Add a suppressor and you compound the potential problems to be overcome before the system works flawlessly and accurately. Eventually it will be commonplace, but we're not there yet. </div></div>
Not sure I totally jive with this. End of the day, the same forces and mechanical operations apply - ie it is just a math problem. I think what we're seeing is the tolerance proclivities of some that value accuracy over all factors.
IMHO
With all due respect (<span style="font-style: italic">Talladega Nights</span>)
Good luck
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
Chucky,
I have identical experience with my OBR, with a Surefire762SS on it. Somewhere north of 2000 rounds I cleaned it, I could not bear to pick it up anymore it was so dirty. Still shot very good. I did shoot a little lube in it a couple times, although out of guilt more than anything. I really did want to strip it a couple times, kept waiting to see it fall apart, then gave up.
Having said that, I am still playing with an AR10T, that I put a Bartlien 6.5 Creedmoor on. Way too much gas, and haven't made an adjustable .875 gas block for yet. It is way over gassed unsuppressed, can't even think of the can until I get that bridge crossed.
But George is on to something though, not all gas guns are good with the can. For some, the tradeoffs aren't worth it.
Chucky,
I have identical experience with my OBR, with a Surefire762SS on it. Somewhere north of 2000 rounds I cleaned it, I could not bear to pick it up anymore it was so dirty. Still shot very good. I did shoot a little lube in it a couple times, although out of guilt more than anything. I really did want to strip it a couple times, kept waiting to see it fall apart, then gave up.
Having said that, I am still playing with an AR10T, that I put a Bartlien 6.5 Creedmoor on. Way too much gas, and haven't made an adjustable .875 gas block for yet. It is way over gassed unsuppressed, can't even think of the can until I get that bridge crossed.
But George is on to something though, not all gas guns are good with the can. For some, the tradeoffs aren't worth it.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steelhead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I said the wrong thing in my last post. I said that I've seen reliability issues in my GAP10 when running suppressed. Actually, I have not seen any issues with the gun itself. It's like a Timex, just keeps on ticking.
What I did have was a few times, after long range sessions where I would chamber a round, not shoot it, try to extract it, and the bullet would stick in the chamber. The case would eject and spill powder everywhere.
I've only had this happen after shooting over 100 rounds suppressed. Perhaps to combat this, I need to run a bore snake through the rifle after so many rounds.
What do you all think? </div></div>
The only time this happened with my GAP-10 was using some ammo I bought from USAAmmo.com. I do not think I was running it suppressed at that point, but the round would stick and when I would finally get charging handle back to extract round the round would come apart. The only thing I shoot out of her now are hand loads, occasionally FGMM, and have not had that happen since, suppressed or not.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steelhead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I said the wrong thing in my last post. I said that I've seen reliability issues in my GAP10 when running suppressed. Actually, I have not seen any issues with the gun itself. It's like a Timex, just keeps on ticking.
What I did have was a few times, after long range sessions where I would chamber a round, not shoot it, try to extract it, and the bullet would stick in the chamber. The case would eject and spill powder everywhere.
I've only had this happen after shooting over 100 rounds suppressed. Perhaps to combat this, I need to run a bore snake through the rifle after so many rounds.
What do you all think? </div></div>
The only time this happened with my GAP-10 was using some ammo I bought from USAAmmo.com. I do not think I was running it suppressed at that point, but the round would stick and when I would finally get charging handle back to extract round the round would come apart. The only thing I shoot out of her now are hand loads, occasionally FGMM, and have not had that happen since, suppressed or not.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
Kevin,
Thanks for the info. I have a Vero Beach marked MK 11 Mod O that I have been entertaining the idea of purchasing a MK 11 suppressor to complete the package. I was worried that shooting with the can would become so addictive that I would no longer shoot without the can. I love my gun. It shoots very small holes when I do my part and I would hate to damage it. On a side not If I do buy a can would I have to send the gun and can back to you guys to assure proper function?
thanks,
Johnny
Kevin,
Thanks for the info. I have a Vero Beach marked MK 11 Mod O that I have been entertaining the idea of purchasing a MK 11 suppressor to complete the package. I was worried that shooting with the can would become so addictive that I would no longer shoot without the can. I love my gun. It shoots very small holes when I do my part and I would hate to damage it. On a side not If I do buy a can would I have to send the gun and can back to you guys to assure proper function?
thanks,
Johnny
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
DPMS LR308 w/ Ops 12th Can
0.50 MoA and better.
Works for me.
I rarely clean the gun. It never malfunctions. Brass comes out a litle dirtier, but that's what I have a brass tumbler for. Actually improved accuracy slightly. Brass is fine. No signs of overpressure. No gas regulator needed - regular DI gun.
I'd say the OP has alot of opinions.... see below.
DPMS LR308 w/ Ops 12th Can
0.50 MoA and better.
Works for me.
I rarely clean the gun. It never malfunctions. Brass comes out a litle dirtier, but that's what I have a brass tumbler for. Actually improved accuracy slightly. Brass is fine. No signs of overpressure. No gas regulator needed - regular DI gun.
I'd say the OP has alot of opinions.... see below.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
Just saw this is from G.A. Precision. Disturbing.
Just saw this is from G.A. Precision. Disturbing.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just saw this is from G.A. Precision. Disturbing. </div></div> What's disturbing about it? As the owner of GA Precision he gave you his thoughts and others have chimed in to give further clarity or opinions. That is what a board is all about. Owners have opinions too and I know as a shooter I value Mr. Gardner's opinion as he has millions of rounds down range. In the end of the day the reason he does what he does is he loves shooting.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just saw this is from G.A. Precision. Disturbing. </div></div> What's disturbing about it? As the owner of GA Precision he gave you his thoughts and others have chimed in to give further clarity or opinions. That is what a board is all about. Owners have opinions too and I know as a shooter I value Mr. Gardner's opinion as he has millions of rounds down range. In the end of the day the reason he does what he does is he loves shooting.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSTARSZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What's disturbing about it? As the owner of GA Precision he gave you his thoughts and others have chimed in to give further clarity or opinions. That is what a board is all about. Owners have opinions too and I know as a shooter I value Mr. Gardner's opinion as he has millions of rounds down range. In the end of the day the reason he does what he does is he loves shooting. </div></div>
Its disturbing because I also highly regarded him / his company.
He's entitled to his opinion, but he is not entitled to (1) assert things that are flat out wrong, or (2) draw wrong conclusions from the things he says that are true.
See my post above for the details about that.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSTARSZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What's disturbing about it? As the owner of GA Precision he gave you his thoughts and others have chimed in to give further clarity or opinions. That is what a board is all about. Owners have opinions too and I know as a shooter I value Mr. Gardner's opinion as he has millions of rounds down range. In the end of the day the reason he does what he does is he loves shooting. </div></div>
Its disturbing because I also highly regarded him / his company.
He's entitled to his opinion, but he is not entitled to (1) assert things that are flat out wrong, or (2) draw wrong conclusions from the things he says that are true.
See my post above for the details about that.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
Mag,
Function no, however the Mk11 Mod0 cans really need to be mated to ensure minimal POI shift. We usually used 25 or so cans to go find a can that was a minimal shift.
If you do want to buy a can for it, ensure you send the upper back for mating to a specific can...
Mag,
Function no, however the Mk11 Mod0 cans really need to be mated to ensure minimal POI shift. We usually used 25 or so cans to go find a can that was a minimal shift.
If you do want to buy a can for it, ensure you send the upper back for mating to a specific can...
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
All the new cans we are coming out with at Griffin were designed with liberal blast chambers in mind to try to reduce back pressure in semi-auto's but George is right. There is no way around it; shooting cans on gas guns is a filthy plight.
Is it still worth it? In my mind yes... but it is worthy of note.
Cans are much more enjoyable on bolt guns in terms of maintenance.
-Evan
All the new cans we are coming out with at Griffin were designed with liberal blast chambers in mind to try to reduce back pressure in semi-auto's but George is right. There is no way around it; shooting cans on gas guns is a filthy plight.
Is it still worth it? In my mind yes... but it is worthy of note.
Cans are much more enjoyable on bolt guns in terms of maintenance.
-Evan
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
To George's conversation... Most guys sitting on a bench rest with a 20" or 24" barrel do not really need to shoot supressed.
However, Kevin raises good points when you take into account the evolution of the ar platforms:
a. shorter barrels both 762 and 556
b. heavier grain bullets
c. now ammo being designed to be more effecitve with these variations (ie mk262).
To George's conversation... Most guys sitting on a bench rest with a 20" or 24" barrel do not really need to shoot supressed.
However, Kevin raises good points when you take into account the evolution of the ar platforms:
a. shorter barrels both 762 and 556
b. heavier grain bullets
c. now ammo being designed to be more effecitve with these variations (ie mk262).
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
This has been a good read so I would hate to see it take a turn for the worse. The OP was posting his thoughts, findings and opinions. I don't see any reason for anyone to let that upset them or think he has some kind of agenda attched to it. He runs tight chambers on his guns and I think he wanted to pass on the fact that they will get dirty a lot faster with a suppressor, that it can cause issues and should be cleaned more often if you choose to run one for whatever reason you see fit. The tight chambers are a product of trying to build the most consistently accurate semi auto gas gun out there. It only makes sense that if everything is already tight that running a suppressor on one will foul things up faster than a lot of looser guns. Congratulations if some of you have a looser gun that runs great while suppressed and dirty and still shoots sub MOA all day long. I bet more dont perform that way than ones that do. It seems to be a fact that GAP puts out some of the most consistently accurate gas operated semi autos from one gun to the next. One that doesn't shoot would be the exception and not the other way around so they know what they are doing. Tight, accurate chambers come with sacrifice. Not running as well when extremely dirty is one of them and running it suppressed will foul things up a lot quicker. I'm pretty sure that is the only point he was trying to make. Just for the record: I'm not saying that no one out there builds an accurate semi that runs well for extended periods with a suppressor so no need to jump on that either.
This has been a good read so I would hate to see it take a turn for the worse. The OP was posting his thoughts, findings and opinions. I don't see any reason for anyone to let that upset them or think he has some kind of agenda attched to it. He runs tight chambers on his guns and I think he wanted to pass on the fact that they will get dirty a lot faster with a suppressor, that it can cause issues and should be cleaned more often if you choose to run one for whatever reason you see fit. The tight chambers are a product of trying to build the most consistently accurate semi auto gas gun out there. It only makes sense that if everything is already tight that running a suppressor on one will foul things up faster than a lot of looser guns. Congratulations if some of you have a looser gun that runs great while suppressed and dirty and still shoots sub MOA all day long. I bet more dont perform that way than ones that do. It seems to be a fact that GAP puts out some of the most consistently accurate gas operated semi autos from one gun to the next. One that doesn't shoot would be the exception and not the other way around so they know what they are doing. Tight, accurate chambers come with sacrifice. Not running as well when extremely dirty is one of them and running it suppressed will foul things up a lot quicker. I'm pretty sure that is the only point he was trying to make. Just for the record: I'm not saying that no one out there builds an accurate semi that runs well for extended periods with a suppressor so no need to jump on that either.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
What I took from all of this is as follows:
1.) Be prepared to clean your rifle when using a can on a semi-auto.
2.) A can is much more pleasant to shoot in a bolt gun because you don't have the gas face aka back pressure that you get with a semi, not to mention other problematic issues that arise when using a can on a semi.
I clean my rifle after each range session so I'm not concerned with the rifle getting a little more filthy. Needless to say, I can hardly wait for my TBAC to arrive!
What I took from all of this is as follows:
1.) Be prepared to clean your rifle when using a can on a semi-auto.
2.) A can is much more pleasant to shoot in a bolt gun because you don't have the gas face aka back pressure that you get with a semi, not to mention other problematic issues that arise when using a can on a semi.
I clean my rifle after each range session so I'm not concerned with the rifle getting a little more filthy. Needless to say, I can hardly wait for my TBAC to arrive!
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I took from all of this is as follows:
1.) Be prepared to clean your rifle when using a can on a semi-auto.
2.) A can is much more pleasant to shoot in a bolt gun because you don't have the gas face aka back pressure that you get with a semi, not to mention other problematic issues that arise when using a can on a semi.
</div></div>
Have you ever actually fired a suppressed semi precision rifle? (1) There is no gas in the face (2) There are no other problematic issues - no ejection problems, no cleaning problems, no over pressure problems, no bolt override problems, no adjustable gas block problems.
Now, people who don't know what they are doing have LOTS of problems.
And people who don't know what they are talking about envision lots of problems that don't exist.
But people who've educated themselves thru actual experience just aren't experiencing problems. In all honesty, this thread reads like so many anti gunners who have no actual experience with suppressors, but wax eloquent as to their opinions about suppressors. They repeat the same misinformation and errors I'm reading here.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I took from all of this is as follows:
1.) Be prepared to clean your rifle when using a can on a semi-auto.
2.) A can is much more pleasant to shoot in a bolt gun because you don't have the gas face aka back pressure that you get with a semi, not to mention other problematic issues that arise when using a can on a semi.
</div></div>
Have you ever actually fired a suppressed semi precision rifle? (1) There is no gas in the face (2) There are no other problematic issues - no ejection problems, no cleaning problems, no over pressure problems, no bolt override problems, no adjustable gas block problems.
Now, people who don't know what they are doing have LOTS of problems.
And people who don't know what they are talking about envision lots of problems that don't exist.
But people who've educated themselves thru actual experience just aren't experiencing problems. In all honesty, this thread reads like so many anti gunners who have no actual experience with suppressors, but wax eloquent as to their opinions about suppressors. They repeat the same misinformation and errors I'm reading here.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
It's too bad this thread is being invaded by someone who just wants to pick a fight. To claim that there is no "gas in the face" and that a respected gunsmith is somehow spreading false statements about running a gas gun suppressed, shows me that we have a troll.
It's too bad this thread is being invaded by someone who just wants to pick a fight. To claim that there is no "gas in the face" and that a respected gunsmith is somehow spreading false statements about running a gas gun suppressed, shows me that we have a troll.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
Killshot shoots a POF, which is a piston gun. He should get quite a bit less of the negative effects of shooting suppressed because the piston system doesn't directly dump all of the gas into the receiver. In my experience, piston guns still get dirty when shooting suppressed from the excess gas in the barrel. Not nearly to the same extent as a DI gun though.
Killshot shoots a POF, which is a piston gun. He should get quite a bit less of the negative effects of shooting suppressed because the piston system doesn't directly dump all of the gas into the receiver. In my experience, piston guns still get dirty when shooting suppressed from the excess gas in the barrel. Not nearly to the same extent as a DI gun though.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
My 16" POF .308 shoots great with my AAC SDN-6, matter of fact it ONLY shoots with my can on, have never shot it without the can on that I can remember. Yeah it gets dirty, brass is dirty but no big deal, just clean after it gets really dirty and my brass comes clean too. Never once had any problems besides light primer strikes on handloads with CCI BR2 primers, but that's because I used the lighter yellow JP spring in my trigger. I even shoot cheap Brown Bear ammo through it sometimes just plinking and it still runs flawless.
My 16" POF .308 shoots great with my AAC SDN-6, matter of fact it ONLY shoots with my can on, have never shot it without the can on that I can remember. Yeah it gets dirty, brass is dirty but no big deal, just clean after it gets really dirty and my brass comes clean too. Never once had any problems besides light primer strikes on handloads with CCI BR2 primers, but that's because I used the lighter yellow JP spring in my trigger. I even shoot cheap Brown Bear ammo through it sometimes just plinking and it still runs flawless.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steelhead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's too bad this thread is being invaded by someone who just wants to pick a fight. To claim that there is no "gas in the face" and that a respected gunsmith is somehow spreading false statements about running a gas gun suppressed, shows me that we have a troll.
</div></div>
Uhh, I am NOT alone in the personal, firsthand, real world, repeatable observations and experiences I am describing.
But, whatever.... no point in re-re-repeating facts that some people don't want to hear.
I'm out of this thread. Ya'll enjoy.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steelhead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's too bad this thread is being invaded by someone who just wants to pick a fight. To claim that there is no "gas in the face" and that a respected gunsmith is somehow spreading false statements about running a gas gun suppressed, shows me that we have a troll.
</div></div>
Uhh, I am NOT alone in the personal, firsthand, real world, repeatable observations and experiences I am describing.
But, whatever.... no point in re-re-repeating facts that some people don't want to hear.
I'm out of this thread. Ya'll enjoy.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, people who don't know what they are doing have LOTS of problems...But people who've educated themselves thru actual experience just aren't experiencing problems.</div></div>If the gun doesn't work properly the experience of the shooter doesn't matter.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, people who don't know what they are doing have LOTS of problems...But people who've educated themselves thru actual experience just aren't experiencing problems.</div></div>If the gun doesn't work properly the experience of the shooter doesn't matter.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steelhead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's too bad this thread is being invaded by someone who just wants to pick a fight. To claim that there is no "gas in the face" and that a respected gunsmith is somehow spreading false statements about running a gas gun suppressed, shows me that we have a troll.
</div></div>
Uhh, I am NOT alone in the personal, firsthand, real world, repeatable observations and experiences I am describing.
But, whatever.... no point in re-re-repeating facts that some people don't want to hear.
I'm out of this thread. Ya'll enjoy. </div></div>
If you've never "felt gas in your face", that tells me right there that you have no, or very limited, experience with gas guns of the AR-15/10 configuration.
Since you like personal experiences.......from my personal experience, I've had this happen on every one of the major manufacturer's AR-15 and AR-10 type rifles. Even experienced it when not suppressed. Heck, I've even experienced it on gas guns with the "gas blocker" charging handle installed, which is made by another company.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steelhead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's too bad this thread is being invaded by someone who just wants to pick a fight. To claim that there is no "gas in the face" and that a respected gunsmith is somehow spreading false statements about running a gas gun suppressed, shows me that we have a troll.
</div></div>
Uhh, I am NOT alone in the personal, firsthand, real world, repeatable observations and experiences I am describing.
But, whatever.... no point in re-re-repeating facts that some people don't want to hear.
I'm out of this thread. Ya'll enjoy. </div></div>
If you've never "felt gas in your face", that tells me right there that you have no, or very limited, experience with gas guns of the AR-15/10 configuration.
Since you like personal experiences.......from my personal experience, I've had this happen on every one of the major manufacturer's AR-15 and AR-10 type rifles. Even experienced it when not suppressed. Heck, I've even experienced it on gas guns with the "gas blocker" charging handle installed, which is made by another company.
Re: Suppressors and Gas Guns! My 2cents
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: springer01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Never once had any problems besides light primer strikes on handloads with CCI BR2 primers, but that's because I used the lighter yellow JP spring in my trigger.</div></div>
Out of curiosity, did you replace both the hammer and trigger springs? I just replaced the trigger spring and so far it's never failed on any factory ammo.
I was just about to start in on my 308 reload project now that I've finished working over my larger hunting calibers. I'll be using federal match primers so hopefully that won't be an issue with light strikes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: springer01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Never once had any problems besides light primer strikes on handloads with CCI BR2 primers, but that's because I used the lighter yellow JP spring in my trigger.</div></div>
Out of curiosity, did you replace both the hammer and trigger springs? I just replaced the trigger spring and so far it's never failed on any factory ammo.
I was just about to start in on my 308 reload project now that I've finished working over my larger hunting calibers. I'll be using federal match primers so hopefully that won't be an issue with light strikes.
Really, dude? Pardon me for asking, but...are you a special kind of stupid? Your bullshit attitude isn't needed so unless you have something to actually contribute, stop mucking up the topic.
Have I used a suppressor on a semi auto precision rifle? Yes, I have. Anymore questions?
There is no gas in the face, really?
Damn...I hope everyone who bought a PRI Gas Buster charging handle doesn't find out about that because they're gonna be pissed off after having bought something that provides no benefit. Granted, there's less with a piston rifle than with a DI, but it's still there.
For someone who thinks he knows what he's talking about, you don't know crap from Crisco so perhaps you should shut the hell up and sit your ass down.
Yes I replaced both the hammer and trigger springs and used the yellow (lighter) hammer spring instead of the recommended red hammer spring on my .308. I have stopped using CCI BR-2 primers and haven't had a problem since.
I don't have gas blown in my face... Not saying it doesn't happen but I shoot a 308ar and an Omega 30 can and have never had that problem. If you pick your parts and build your rifle correctly it's true you won't have any problems. My rifle is the proof.
For what its worth ...
I have a GAP-10 in 6mm Creedmoor. That i shoot with a suppressor. I do have a Noveske switchblock installed as well. It shoots fine for me. I don't have cycling issues. I have only had the can for a month, so maybe I haven't had enough rounds through the gun. However, I perhaps shoot slower that some and thus don't got through as many rounds. If I'm not shooting 600+ yards I don't bother with the GAP, and at that its likely not more that 100-150 rounds per session. I do clean my rifle after every time i take it out, i always have with every weapon. I'm a civilian, and since 3k + the cost of the can is a lot to me. I figure I should clean it regularly. That solution seems to work for me. I also shoot it on a custom AR15 with no adjustable gas block and that hasn't malfunctioned either (I wasn't sure if it would or not) I shoot the AR15 at 600yrds or less.
Both rifles are positivly more dirty, but the can has certainly helped make the tenitous not as bad, and is fun to shoot.
I have a GAP-10 in 6mm Creedmoor. That i shoot with a suppressor. I do have a Noveske switchblock installed as well. It shoots fine for me. I don't have cycling issues. I have only had the can for a month, so maybe I haven't had enough rounds through the gun. However, I perhaps shoot slower that some and thus don't got through as many rounds. If I'm not shooting 600+ yards I don't bother with the GAP, and at that its likely not more that 100-150 rounds per session. I do clean my rifle after every time i take it out, i always have with every weapon. I'm a civilian, and since 3k + the cost of the can is a lot to me. I figure I should clean it regularly. That solution seems to work for me. I also shoot it on a custom AR15 with no adjustable gas block and that hasn't malfunctioned either (I wasn't sure if it would or not) I shoot the AR15 at 600yrds or less.
Both rifles are positivly more dirty, but the can has certainly helped make the tenitous not as bad, and is fun to shoot.
I have a couple questions
How do the gases exit the muzzle and sneak back into the bore? The gases are behind the bullet and are already in the bore
Could you clarify this point? It sound like you are saying that because of the fouling, cases do not stick to the chamber walls which increases pressure. If I am mis-understanding, please correct me
I understand that a suppressor increases the time it takes a rifle to blow down to atmospheric, but how does it make the pressure curve sharper? The pressure curve will be the same as an unsuppressed rifle until the bullet uncorks the barrel and the gases dump into the can. As the gases enter the larger volume of the can, pressure drops. Not as suddenly as being dumped into open air, of course but it drops nonetheless
How do the gases exit the muzzle and sneak back into the bore? The gases are behind the bullet and are already in the bore
Could you clarify this point? It sound like you are saying that because of the fouling, cases do not stick to the chamber walls which increases pressure. If I am mis-understanding, please correct me
I understand that a suppressor increases the time it takes a rifle to blow down to atmospheric, but how does it make the pressure curve sharper? The pressure curve will be the same as an unsuppressed rifle until the bullet uncorks the barrel and the gases dump into the can. As the gases enter the larger volume of the can, pressure drops. Not as suddenly as being dumped into open air, of course but it drops nonetheless
This thread got weird all of a sudden.
If you look at bolt carrier velocity on a suppressed gun versus unsuppressed you will see several notable things, unless your running a adjustable gas port.
Using a can, with a non adjustable gas port the Port Pressure is a lot higher - because of that the gun is trying to unlock faster. In a DI gun there is more pressure in the gas tube, and combined with the pressure in the barrel/can there is more chamber pressure. This can cause extraction issues on some guns (once again dependent upon how their are design in terms of gas tube length/barrel length, chamber dimensions, and the cam path of the bolt.
There are two different velocity curves, the first that peaks on unlocking, and the second upon extraction (the peak on this depends on bolt carrier velocity, range of motion of the operating parts, mass of the recoiling parts and buffer, and spring rate of the spring and length of the spring). Now when MistWolf says pressure drops once the projectile enters the can, of course is does, but the pressure is still higher than if the projectile had enter the atmosphere, and vented gasses. While pressure remains in the can, there is resultant pressure in the barrel and affects the bolt carrier velocity, as it is pushing on the casing until it clears the chamber and is ejected.
Tighter guns are not going to do as well suppressed (this can be either part life, reliability, or both) - everything is a compromise, it sucks but you need to find the best compromise for you.
Regarding gas in the face, even piston guns do it is suppressed, heck suppress a FNC which does not have a rear charging handle, and it will still bleed gas out the side of the receiver and come up into your face if you shoot a lot. However some folks are more and less tolerant of this, I really don't notice is unless I'm shooting auto from a short barrel gun suppressed.
If you look at bolt carrier velocity on a suppressed gun versus unsuppressed you will see several notable things, unless your running a adjustable gas port.
Using a can, with a non adjustable gas port the Port Pressure is a lot higher - because of that the gun is trying to unlock faster. In a DI gun there is more pressure in the gas tube, and combined with the pressure in the barrel/can there is more chamber pressure. This can cause extraction issues on some guns (once again dependent upon how their are design in terms of gas tube length/barrel length, chamber dimensions, and the cam path of the bolt.
There are two different velocity curves, the first that peaks on unlocking, and the second upon extraction (the peak on this depends on bolt carrier velocity, range of motion of the operating parts, mass of the recoiling parts and buffer, and spring rate of the spring and length of the spring). Now when MistWolf says pressure drops once the projectile enters the can, of course is does, but the pressure is still higher than if the projectile had enter the atmosphere, and vented gasses. While pressure remains in the can, there is resultant pressure in the barrel and affects the bolt carrier velocity, as it is pushing on the casing until it clears the chamber and is ejected.
Tighter guns are not going to do as well suppressed (this can be either part life, reliability, or both) - everything is a compromise, it sucks but you need to find the best compromise for you.
Regarding gas in the face, even piston guns do it is suppressed, heck suppress a FNC which does not have a rear charging handle, and it will still bleed gas out the side of the receiver and come up into your face if you shoot a lot. However some folks are more and less tolerant of this, I really don't notice is unless I'm shooting auto from a short barrel gun suppressed.
No shit. 98% of the people reading this thread appreciate the insight, the other 2% are turning this into an ar15.com nut swinging contest.
Thanks to GAP and KAC for being involved with the conversation.
It's gets dirty real quick. I still shoot my 16" LR-308 suppressed though. I know the mess that I have to deal with.
For the guys that haven't shot a gas gun suppressed. This picture is the last two rounds in a magazine that was loaded to 10. The entire internals of the upper/lower looks much worse if you shoot more than a couple boxes of ammo.
CHRIS
For the guys that haven't shot a gas gun suppressed. This picture is the last two rounds in a magazine that was loaded to 10. The entire internals of the upper/lower looks much worse if you shoot more than a couple boxes of ammo.
CHRIS
