First attempt at annealing.. does this look right to you?

[3-0-hate]

So I have a lot of brass that has multiple loadings on it and Im starting to see some neck splits and accuracy is beginning to fall off.

I decided I would try my hand at quick and dirty annealing. I used a drill, deep socket, a bolt and nut and a propane torch. I decided to do a 10 count on the .308 brass (FC) and a 6 count on the .223 (RP)

Does this look like the right amount of heat to you guys? The .223 looks good to me, but the .308 looks like its not enough. If I keep it in the heat any longer, the mouth turns cherry red though.

The left .308 has been annealed, the right has not. Same with the .223 cases.

Mind you this is just an off the hip experiement at this point, so I havent invested in thermo-paint or anything. I was more curious as to if it was actually going to be effective in this setup or not.

Thanks!

 

[jbailey]

I am thinking 223 too much, 308 about right, but would like to hear what others think as I'm by no means an expert on annealing.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

First, let me say I haven't ever annealed brass yet. There is a substance commercially available called tempilac or something just like that. This substance changes color when the brass is the right temp.
One way I was told to do it was to place the brass cartridges (without primers) in a pan of water with the top showing---about 1/4"-3/8" below the shoulder or so---then heat the brass to discoloration (tempilac would indicate better). One master reloader who taught me alot said to then knock the case over into the water, another article I read said that just letting the cases cool is fine.

Hopefully some folks who have done it successfully will tell us virgins how to anneal brass like a pro.

Kudos for trying it. I just don't have any brass shot more than 2x yet.

 

[3-0-hate]

I am thinking 223 too much, 308 about right, but would like to hear what others think as I'm by no means an expert on annealing.

It might be hard to tell from the photo, but the .223 case looks a lot like factory Lake City brass in terms of the discoloration. The .308 looks like its hardly discolored at all. But I am no expert either, obviously.

First, let me say I haven't ever annealed brass yet. There is a substance commercially available called tempilac or something just like that. This substance changes color when the brass is the right temp.
One way I was told to do it was to place the brass cartridges (without primers) in a pan of water with the top showing---about 1/4"-3/8" below the shoulder or so---then heat the brass to discoloration (tempilac would indicate better). One master reloader who taught me alot said to then knock the case over into the water, another article I read said that just letting the cases cool is fine.

Hopefully some folks who have done it successfully will tell us virgins how to anneal brass like a pro.

Kudos for trying it. I just don't have any brass shot more than 2x yet.

Tempilaq is definitely something that I want to pick up, but this was just a quick idea and usually when I get a hair up my ass like this, I just try to cobble together what I have and experiment right away. If I can get it working consistently, maybe Ill put together a youtube video on how I did it. I mean I literally spent ZERO dollars putting this little experiment together and if it works, awesome!

 

[popapi]

I got to LEARN myself....

 

[milo 2.0]

To me the first .308 looks as if you warmed it up, not enough, 2nd looks untouched in photo. 1st .223 looks overdone, to far down on the case, 4th looks warmed up, but not done.

 

[AtOne]

Color of the brass after annealing can be deceptive depending on how the brass was cleaned before hand.
If it was stainless steel tumbled it will show less than if you tumbled dry in walnut or just brushed the insides out before annealing.
So don't go by color of the finished product alone.

I anneal in a darkened room using a drill and socket also.
Watch for the inside of the case mouth to just start turning orange and your done. With .308 cases and my torch its about a 7 second count, Your time will vary depending on the torch your using and your technique.
In a dark room you can see it happen way better than if your in a fully lit room.

 

[2Shots]

So I have a lot of brass that has multiple loadings on it and Im starting to see some neck splits and accuracy is beginning to fall off.

I decided I would try my hand at quick and dirty annealing. I used a drill, deep socket, a bolt and nut and a propane torch. I decided to do a 10 count on the .308 brass (FC) and a 6 count on the .223 (RP)

Does this look like the right amount of heat to you guys? The .223 looks good to me, but the .308 looks like its not enough. If I keep it in the heat any longer, the mouth turns cherry red though.

Mind you this is just an off the hip experiement at this point, so I havent invested in thermo-paint or anything. I was more curious as to if it was actually going to be effective in this setup or not.

Thanks!

agree, little hot on the .223 and not bad on the .308, just turn down the lights, heat it whole rotating until it gets burgundy, then plop it in water or a towel or something. But on your first attempt not bad, I use a deep well socket in a drill on slow speed and heat what sticks out. When you do it for awhile it isn't hard. Or you can invest about 400 bucks and get an automatic one!

 

[fish30114]

I agree with AtOne that color can be deceptive, but having said that, the 308 brass looks like it is nickel plated. If it is my experience is it takes a couple seconds longer in the flame. I agree the second case doesn't look changed at all to my eye, I think both the 223 cases are fine. There is a pelethora of information out there-- I think that 6mm Benchrest has the simplest consolidation of annealing to digest. I posted on another thread that I am in the school of do what works. Here is my .02 Well I am in the school of thought that is - 'do what works for you' - I anneal every fourth or fifth firing using the Tempilaq that came with the Hornady annealing kit. Basically 3 different size case holders, do the same thing as an aprropriate sized socket would do. Came with 475 degree Tempilaq. You paint that on the neck shoulder junction and stop heating when it melts. I put the tip of the blue point of the 'inner flame' on the neck shoulder junction and get a count with a digital metrenome (sp?) and get in a rhythm on the count. It is typically about 10 to 12 count with '06 family cases being more like a 10 count, and WSM cases and Dakota cases being a 12 count.

Now that is counting to 10 or 12 out loud, (or in my mind) not a measured 10 or 12 seconds. Long story short, I track my cases diligently, and I have a group of 308 cases that is on over 55 loadings. Now that same rifle with a set of the same MFG cases that were not annealed developed neck tension issues around the 8th-10th loading and developed some neck splits around loading 13-14. I also anneal a fair bit of nickel plated cases and I find that to anneal them fully, which I judge by the feel in the sizing die, and springback they exhibit--measured-- they take an extra 2 count.
I realize this isn't very emperical, but I figure Hornady has a good reason for selling the kit with the 475 degree stuff. And I find from experience it works. I don't quench though, which the Hornady kit recommends. This method gives me the results I am looking for, and yes, in comparing accuracy with and without annealing I have found there is definitively more accuracy for me with the cases I have annealed--even more so than virgin firings. Of course YMMV

 

[Sniper Uncle]

I just read another article on annealing... http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html not sure how to make that a link. Anyway, the author tell you how to be sure that you have annealed enough and not too much. If you go too much, the neck won't hold right.
Thanks for the info on the drill and socket. I wonder if using a deep well impact socket would act as a good heat sink also. Also, I read that you can get temperature pencils at plumbing supply places, so you can be sure you get the right temp range.

 

[280nosler]

I am thinking 223 too much, 308 about right, but would like to hear what others think as I'm by no means an expert on annealing.

This. The 223 brass was heated too far down. Try a deeper socket, or make the blue tip of the flame contact the case where the neck meets the shoulder.

 

[TC260]

Don't pay attention the color of the brass, it's not a good indicator. Get some 750 degree Tempilaq to establish proper timing and know you're up to temperature but not too hot. The cost of a bottle is a lot less than replacing a batch of ruined brass.

 

[3-0-hate]

I should have explained.. The .308 on the left has been annealed, the right one is untouched. Federal brass.

The left .223 case was annealed, the right one was untouched.

 

[ZiaHunter]

Very hard to tell by color alone but it looks as though the .223 is over annealed. As the post stated above get some 750 degree Tempilaq since it will give you your best indication of heat. I use a Bench Source machine to anneal my brass and use a sacrificial case with Tempilaq when setting it up. Even when equal time and heat is applied using the machine various manufacturers brands of brass will yield different color changes. The most pronounced color changes occurs with military brass. For most commercial brass the neck and shoulder areas will only deepen in color but will eventually take on a bluish tint later on.

 

[bower4311]

I haven't annealed but have researched and tenpilaq 750 on the inside of the neck. Not sure the best way to clean it up but I'm sure a bore brush would work. Also dropping brass in water is not the same as steel. It does nothing to the metal that is of concern for reloaders. Now... It does do one very important thing. It cools it to where the heat will not spread to the base. Which is very important. Some roll the brass in their fingers until the temp indicator says so then drop it into the water. This also prevents you from heating the base too much. Fingers work as great temperature indicators haha.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Well SVTHUH, you got me off my butt and trying annealing myself. I pulled out my stash of 5.56 cases that are Boxer(?) primed---two flash holes. I got Tempilstic 750 degree from welding supply store, chucked up a 3/8" deep well impact socket in a cordless, got out the torch, put the drill on low, a little mark of tempilstic on the outside of a 5.56 case at the neck-shoulder juncture, turned the drill on, placed slowly moving case into flame and started counting. I got to eight and the tempilstic melted, at which time I upended the socket over a little pail with about 2" water in it. I did this several times with new cases and then just started counting to eight with each case. I checked a couple randomly by applying tempilstic before heating, and 8 seconds held true. At the end, I popped them in a small cake pan in the oven on 200 degrees for 15 minutes or so, good to go.

Twenty six cases, a total of maybe six minutes torch time. I did pause a few times to check things, so I spent a half hour or so playing around all told.
I think 200 per hour is a realistic target.
Thanks for the impetus to try it. And thanks to all you others who chimed in on this thread with ideas/experience/information.

 

[fish30114]

Uncle Sniper, I have no idea what you were trying to accomplish by putting your cases in the oven, but all that did was make your cases hot. Achieved absolutely nothing metalurgically. I think your process is sound otherwise, I don't like stuff inside my cases, so I stick with the 475 degree Tampilaq, like Hornady includes in their kit. I find it easier to see and apply, and it also takes around an 8-10 count to burn up.

Good luck to you

 

[bower4311]

Uncle Sniper, I have no idea what you were trying to accomplish by putting your cases in the oven, but all that did was make your cases hot. Achieved absolutely nothing metalurgically. I think your process is sound otherwise, I don't like stuff inside my cases, so I stick with the 475 degree Tampilaq, like Hornady includes in their kit. I find it easier to see and apply, and it also takes around an 8-10 count to burn up.

Good luck to you

I would love to see someone try 475 below the shoulder and 650 inside and compare them.

 

[cantgrowup]

Sniper Uncle. Two flash holes are Berdan primed. Box is single hole.

 

[fish30114]

That would be interesting, it seems that inside would take more heat, which is why I don't concur with the higher temp stuff, inside the case. As I said the 475 degree stuff works, from experience, and interestingly, or not, it also takes me about a 10 count to burn off when directing the tip of the 'inner flame' at the neck shoulder junction. As I said 'do what works for you'.

 

[former naval person]

Dark room. Case in a screwdriver rotated socket. Case shoulder neck junction at the tip of the inner blue flame.
Watch the flame as it passes over the neck. At about the 8 second or so time, the burning gases past the case mouth will change color. Dump the case then. Propane torch. Acetylene is too hot.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Uncle Sniper, I have no idea what you were trying to accomplish by putting your cases in the oven, but all that did was make your cases hot. Achieved absolutely nothing metalurgically. I think your process is sound otherwise, I don't like stuff inside my cases, so I stick with the 475 degree Tampilaq, like Hornady includes in their kit. I find it easier to see and apply, and it also takes around an 8-10 count to burn up.

Good luck to you

Thank you. I dumped them in water, so I wanted to dry them out..... I read an article on annealing, and at 475, you haven't even reached the temp at which you change the molecular structure at all----this happens at 485 degrees. To anneal brass, you must reach 650 for an hour, or higher temps for a shorter period of time. 750 will do it in about 5-8 seconds. Here is the url for the article on annealing: http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html I guess that you are probably reaching the 750 or so by the time your tempilaq on the inside is burned/melted....

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Sniper Uncle. Two flash holes are Berdan primed. Box is single hole.

Thanks, couldn't remember which way it went, but anyway, I haven't figured out how to use those cases, so I figured I would learn to anneal with them. If I wrecked them, no loss.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Sounds like we're all essentially doing it the same way, and for about the same time.... I would bet that the results are similar.

 

[bower4311]

Thank you. I dumped them in water, so I wanted to dry them out..... I read an article on annealing, and at 475, you haven't even reached the temp at which you change the molecular structure at all----this happens at 485 degrees. To anneal brass, you must reach 650 for an hour, or higher temps for a shorter period of time. 750 will do it in about 5-8 seconds. Here is the url for the article on annealing: http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html I guess that you are probably reaching the 750 or so by the time your tempilaq on the inside is burned/melted....

"The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds." -From the article you posted. 650 degrees would require a little more than 15 minutes.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

"The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds." -From the article you posted. 650 degrees would require a little more than 15 minutes.

Thank you for the correction, my error, as I was going from memory on that---didn't really care about 650, because I wanted to do it in seconds, not a long period of time---but thanks anyway for the correction.