cant go wrong with a mosin the history is cool and they actually shoot decent I gave one to my cousin and he got on paper at 450 yards with surplus ammo and iron sights and he isnt a gun nut and has little to no experience . but if you want something cool look its a PSL (or fake dragunov) they can be had for $800-$1500 real tiger carbines or svd's (real dragunovs) go from $5000-$10000 so its good bang for buck and they are head turners and pretty accurate. Or also a VEPR is a option for around $1000 its like a AK47 style. these guns are awesome because 7.62x54r is so cheap and packs a punch
- Thread starter Greg Langelius *
- Start date
Well, I got the pin free. The Aim Sport mount goes together pretty easy. There's a pivot where the sight leaf pivoted, and a threesome of setscrews to adjust the basic scope angle. Boresighting and sighting shots will definitely be called for. The rings are about 1/2" higher than they need to be (very definitely see-thru...), so I'll be looking around for lower ones (30mm), and/or some sort of cheek pad. The scope is clear, not terrible (yet), and the mounting puts the lens cap just ahead of the ejection port, so strippers clear OK.
As for the pricier X54R's..., not my speed. The emphasis in this topic is on the 'cheap'. I did some load development for an SVT-40 some years back, and once had a chance to shoot a Tiger at Cherry Ridge.. Nice guns, but I'll stick with the 91/30's
Greg.
As for the pricier X54R's..., not my speed. The emphasis in this topic is on the 'cheap'. I did some load development for an SVT-40 some years back, and once had a chance to shoot a Tiger at Cherry Ridge.. Nice guns, but I'll stick with the 91/30's
Greg.
Since they make mention of the different receivers, is there any significant difference (functionality or collectability) between the Tula and Sestroretsk receivers?
I have a pair of 1934 hex Izshevsk and a 1943 round Izshevsk. They are functionally indistinguishable. I am a shooter only, and not a collector; so I can't answer that part of your question.
FWIW, I chose to buy only 91/30 guns with post 1930 dated receivers, as didn't want rifles that may have been arsenal reworks. I'm just guessing on this.
FWIW, I chose to buy only 91/30 guns with post 1930 dated receivers, as didn't want rifles that may have been arsenal reworks. I'm just guessing on this.
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OK, did some base alignment setup using a laser bore sighter. Scope adjusted down near the lowest end of the elevation adjustment, set the base slope adjuster screws up so the dot and reticle are centered indoors. It's a start point. I expect it to shoot high, will correct the base slope to get it on target without more elevation adjustment at 100yd. That should leave the bulk of the elevation adjustment range available for adjustments to reach longer distances.
Replaced the provided (see-thru) 30mm rings some B Square 30mm 'High' Utility Rings. This brought the scope down about 1/4" and it helps, but I could probably bring it down another 1/4" and have everything still work. The B Square rings are a much better set of rings, with 4 screws per ring cap and a much bigger cross section fore-and-aft. They also eliminate the bulky ring mounting 'knobs'. I will continue to try shorter and shorter 30mm rings, but I think a lace-on cheek pad would work very well already. All the attachment/assembly screws are hex socket screws using the same key and each screw head ends up fully recessed, making the overall installation neat and relatively snag free.
This rifle is by no means a 'Mosin Sniper', but even the cheap Chinese 2-7X scope provides somewhat better basic optical performance than the original sniper optics, and even if the 'Range Finding Reticle" is hokey and ill explained, it can be figured out and put to some comparative advantage. But the real benefit comes from the 'Scout' mounting position. It eliminates any interference with Stripper feeding and allows the usage of the original straight bolt handle. Ihave read some criticism of the sight-leaf-replacement style of base mounting's rigidity, but from my viewpoint, it does appear to have at least adequate integrity. I mean, just how much 'perfect' can one expect for under $100?
I intend to put this thing to rigorous use and perhaps further improve on it.
While I enjoy a good minty-fresh original service rifle, that's not what these first three Mosins are for. They are to shooting and teaching my grandkids how to become one with a legitimate, foolproof, and effective main battle rifle; and I'll be applying whatever non-destructive upgrades I can in order to achieve said goals.
Maybe, as time, money, and local inventories permit, I'll be able to assemble us a threesome of pure original military bolt rifle Mosins, too. But that's for later.
Greg
This rifle is by no means a 'Mosin Sniper', but even the cheap Chinese 2-7X scope provides somewhat better basic optical performance than the original sniper optics, and even if the 'Range Finding Reticle" is hokey and ill explained, it can be figured out and put to some comparative advantage. But the real benefit comes from the 'Scout' mounting position. It eliminates any interference with Stripper feeding and allows the usage of the original straight bolt handle. Ihave read some criticism of the sight-leaf-replacement style of base mounting's rigidity, but from my viewpoint, it does appear to have at least adequate integrity. I mean, just how much 'perfect' can one expect for under $100?
I intend to put this thing to rigorous use and perhaps further improve on it.
While I enjoy a good minty-fresh original service rifle, that's not what these first three Mosins are for. They are to shooting and teaching my grandkids how to become one with a legitimate, foolproof, and effective main battle rifle; and I'll be applying whatever non-destructive upgrades I can in order to achieve said goals.
Maybe, as time, money, and local inventories permit, I'll be able to assemble us a threesome of pure original military bolt rifle Mosins, too. But that's for later.
Greg
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Just ordered a pair of Leapers 1PC mount/rings for the M-N that completely replaces the rear sight assembly, mounting directly to the 11mm/3/8" (?) barrel/sight mounting dovetail groove, and a pair of Bushnell 3-9x40 LER ("6 inch" ER)Dawn-to-Dusk scopes for the two 1934 Izshevsk Mosins. This is a more rigid and compact approach to mounting, and employs better optics than the AIM Sports system. I suspect this will approach being a far more ideal solution for applying optics to the Mosin.
http://www.amazon.com/Leapers-Accus...&qid=1362236574&sr=8-3&keywords=mosin+leapers
http://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Bann...qid=1362236666&sr=1-1&keywords=mosin+bushnell
Looking at the images and notes on the Leapers mount, there appears to be some interference between the Mount, Barrel/Chamber diameter transition, and the Metal Ferrule at the rear end of the Upper Handguard. The suggested solution involves cutting a notch in the Handguard ferrule. That's not acceptable for me. I will not bubbafy the original rifle. When changes are needed to accommodate a nonstandard part, I alter the part, and not the rifle.
I believe the better approach would be to cut/grind/Dremel a pair of reliefs into the front and rear of the mount itself. There is ample material and contact area, it should not interfere with the base mounting process, and it should leave the rifle unmodified and have the potential for a neater appearing setup.
Along with the mounts and scopes for the pair of 1934 Mosins, I also ordered medium and low 30mm rings for my 1943 Mosin AIM Sports setup, so I can tune it for the best scope fit and height.
I suspect that somewhere along this path I am going to end up with Mosins that no longer have any of the original iron sights setup still intact. If so, it'll most likely be a better approach, and so be it.
Greg
http://www.amazon.com/Leapers-Accus...&qid=1362236574&sr=8-3&keywords=mosin+leapers
http://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Bann...qid=1362236666&sr=1-1&keywords=mosin+bushnell
Looking at the images and notes on the Leapers mount, there appears to be some interference between the Mount, Barrel/Chamber diameter transition, and the Metal Ferrule at the rear end of the Upper Handguard. The suggested solution involves cutting a notch in the Handguard ferrule. That's not acceptable for me. I will not bubbafy the original rifle. When changes are needed to accommodate a nonstandard part, I alter the part, and not the rifle.
I believe the better approach would be to cut/grind/Dremel a pair of reliefs into the front and rear of the mount itself. There is ample material and contact area, it should not interfere with the base mounting process, and it should leave the rifle unmodified and have the potential for a neater appearing setup.
Along with the mounts and scopes for the pair of 1934 Mosins, I also ordered medium and low 30mm rings for my 1943 Mosin AIM Sports setup, so I can tune it for the best scope fit and height.
I suspect that somewhere along this path I am going to end up with Mosins that no longer have any of the original iron sights setup still intact. If so, it'll most likely be a better approach, and so be it.
Greg
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This thread/topic represents a nearly total evolution/revolution in its scope and in my current marksmanship direction. It started with a free tin of ammo, and has led to a trio of M-N's being upgraded to semi-precision/sorta-designated marksman rifle status.
Lets review. I wanted a cheap shooter to employ the ammo. I got one and it demonstrated surprising potential. I explored that potential as a service-type rifle, and investigated handloading/surplus ammo optimization. Every step on the way suggested some possible wisdom in taking another.
The next logical step was optical sights.
I neither coveted nor appreciated the costs involved in upgrading to a genuine Mosin Sniper status; and I also felt that what it might buy me falls short of the mark where the rifle's current potential is concerned. I decided modern approaches held more possibility, and started with the AIM Sports system solution. It's OK, but has some ifs. I then researched the Leapers unitized dovetail mount and concluded it's about ideal for my purposes, even though the installation is going to require some Dremel 'fitting' of the mount itself(better than Dremelling the rifle). I also selected the Bushnell Banner 3-9X40 D-to-D LER (6" ER) scope. It's not ideal, but it's affordable, and has a more appealing rep and features than the AIM Sports solution. There is some question about the ER at higher magnification, which will need to be ascertained.
At present, the Leapers mounts and Bushnell scopes are still inbound.
So far, nothing has been done or contemplated which would disqualify the M-Ns' as unaltered vintage service rifles. They can all be restored to original status without any lingering blemish, and it is my intent to keep things this way. My philosophy about vintage/antique firearms is that they are best when used liberally, and kept original. Bubbafication is butchery, period.
At the same time, bringing such a rifle up to more modern capabilities is simply a matter of better realizing its full potential.
I consider the M-N to be a basic, simple as a wingnut, reliable firearm which has a multitude of simple, basic uses. Rather than being a Swiss Army Knife, it's a simple folding penknife. It does simple things, ad infinitum.
I rate its marksmanship potential at about the same as a deer rifle; and when optics are called for, I believe something very much like a hunting scope is most appropriate. This forms the core of my approach to this continuing odyssey.
Where it goes from here, who knows?
But I call it a good start.
Greg
Lets review. I wanted a cheap shooter to employ the ammo. I got one and it demonstrated surprising potential. I explored that potential as a service-type rifle, and investigated handloading/surplus ammo optimization. Every step on the way suggested some possible wisdom in taking another.
The next logical step was optical sights.
I neither coveted nor appreciated the costs involved in upgrading to a genuine Mosin Sniper status; and I also felt that what it might buy me falls short of the mark where the rifle's current potential is concerned. I decided modern approaches held more possibility, and started with the AIM Sports system solution. It's OK, but has some ifs. I then researched the Leapers unitized dovetail mount and concluded it's about ideal for my purposes, even though the installation is going to require some Dremel 'fitting' of the mount itself(better than Dremelling the rifle). I also selected the Bushnell Banner 3-9X40 D-to-D LER (6" ER) scope. It's not ideal, but it's affordable, and has a more appealing rep and features than the AIM Sports solution. There is some question about the ER at higher magnification, which will need to be ascertained.
At present, the Leapers mounts and Bushnell scopes are still inbound.
So far, nothing has been done or contemplated which would disqualify the M-Ns' as unaltered vintage service rifles. They can all be restored to original status without any lingering blemish, and it is my intent to keep things this way. My philosophy about vintage/antique firearms is that they are best when used liberally, and kept original. Bubbafication is butchery, period.
At the same time, bringing such a rifle up to more modern capabilities is simply a matter of better realizing its full potential.
I consider the M-N to be a basic, simple as a wingnut, reliable firearm which has a multitude of simple, basic uses. Rather than being a Swiss Army Knife, it's a simple folding penknife. It does simple things, ad infinitum.
I rate its marksmanship potential at about the same as a deer rifle; and when optics are called for, I believe something very much like a hunting scope is most appropriate. This forms the core of my approach to this continuing odyssey.
Where it goes from here, who knows?
But I call it a good start.
Greg
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Just ordered 3 sets of Uncle Mike's woods screw sling studs and QD 1.25" sling loops along with 3 replica Black Cotton Garand Slings.
This should bring my Mosins more or less up to date.
Greg
This should bring my Mosins more or less up to date.
Greg
Replaced the B-Square High 30mm rings with Millet Low 30mm rings; just makes it. The power adjuster clears the AIM Sports rail by about 1/16", and the 42mm Objective Bell extends below the rail in front, clears the rail end by about the thickness of a business card, and clears the Upper Handguard by somewhere around 3/8"-1/2". The optical axis is right inline with a comfortable cheekweld. I'm calling it quits, this is definitely close enough, the entire scope axis is at least 3/4" lower than with the original rings. The rings work best when the front ring crossbolt is in the 4th groove from the front of the rail mount, and the rear ring is closest to the power adjuster ring.
It's so pleasing how things can come together with just a little bit of tuning.
Greg
PS the two Bushnell Banner 3-9x40 Dawn & Dusk 6" ER Riflescopes are in-house, and appear to be quite nice.
It's so pleasing how things can come together with just a little bit of tuning.
Greg
PS the two Bushnell Banner 3-9x40 Dawn & Dusk 6" ER Riflescopes are in-house, and appear to be quite nice.
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Great thread. Keeping an eye on it for my rainy day project Mosin. Have you had a chance to use the Yugo, allegedly "sniper", heavy ball ammo that was going around a few years back ?
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=A76254Y&groupid=40
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=A76254Y&groupid=40
No, I did not. My intro to M-N's came less that a year ago. Results with the original rifle and optimized spamcan surplus 147gr ball ammo has worked out so well, I don't see a need for any other approach anytime right soon
The first of 3 M-N's is at a point where I can stop playing with the equipment setup and go shooting. Unfortunately, the environment is still snow/ice/mud, so that's on hold at present.
Sometime later this week (day?), scope bases for the other 2 M-N's should be arriving and I will commence their installation. They use the Leapers AccuShot monolithic base/rings unit which appears to simply be an airgun/22 11mm/3/8" dovetail groove mount that fits the M-N's rear sight base. http://www.amazon.com/Leapers-Accus...1-2&keywords=leapers+mosin+nagant+scope+mount
That sight base and conventional 22 scope mounting grooves appear so closely matched that I have even seen amateur videos which simply mate 22 rings directly to the barrel groove, and mount scopes onto that. Recoil is managed by cross-drilling the rings to take the original sight base mounting pins. I think it's an ingenious recognition and exploitation of a serendipitous coincidence.
I have even gone so far as to order a Leapers airgun/22 AccuShot Mid Profile 30mm monolithic mount/base scope base for the original M-N http://www.amazon.com/AccuShot-Airg...d=1362574797&sr=8-1&keywords=leapers+30mm+mid , just as an experiment to see how well it might work out. I think it just may; it's simply a variation on the 1" ringed unit I have coming, that is marketed for the M-N.
Further Internet research appears to reveal that the AIM Sports sight leaf replacement mount is identical to a Barska M-N mount available from Midway. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/77...ope-mount-mosin-nagant-m-44-91-aluminum-matte But sell for half ($8.95) of that at Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/Mosin-Nagant-...id=1362574474&sr=8-2&keywords=aim+mosin+mount
BTW, the shorter version http://www.amazon.com/Sports-Mosin-...id=1362574666&sr=1-1&keywords=aim+mosin+mount may even work as well or better.
If you're looking for an affordable laser bore sighter, this one appears to the same one a lot of other brands are slapping their labels onto and selling for far more. http://www.amazon.com/Boresighter-L...1362579166&sr=8-35&keywords=laser+boresighter
I bought the one from Bushnell, and the different set of arbors seems to be better thought out. http://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-7401...=1362579395&sr=1-1&keywords=laser+boresighter
Greg
The first of 3 M-N's is at a point where I can stop playing with the equipment setup and go shooting. Unfortunately, the environment is still snow/ice/mud, so that's on hold at present.
Sometime later this week (day?), scope bases for the other 2 M-N's should be arriving and I will commence their installation. They use the Leapers AccuShot monolithic base/rings unit which appears to simply be an airgun/22 11mm/3/8" dovetail groove mount that fits the M-N's rear sight base. http://www.amazon.com/Leapers-Accus...1-2&keywords=leapers+mosin+nagant+scope+mount
That sight base and conventional 22 scope mounting grooves appear so closely matched that I have even seen amateur videos which simply mate 22 rings directly to the barrel groove, and mount scopes onto that. Recoil is managed by cross-drilling the rings to take the original sight base mounting pins. I think it's an ingenious recognition and exploitation of a serendipitous coincidence.
I have even gone so far as to order a Leapers airgun/22 AccuShot Mid Profile 30mm monolithic mount/base scope base for the original M-N http://www.amazon.com/AccuShot-Airg...d=1362574797&sr=8-1&keywords=leapers+30mm+mid , just as an experiment to see how well it might work out. I think it just may; it's simply a variation on the 1" ringed unit I have coming, that is marketed for the M-N.
Further Internet research appears to reveal that the AIM Sports sight leaf replacement mount is identical to a Barska M-N mount available from Midway. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/77...ope-mount-mosin-nagant-m-44-91-aluminum-matte But sell for half ($8.95) of that at Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/Mosin-Nagant-...id=1362574474&sr=8-2&keywords=aim+mosin+mount
BTW, the shorter version http://www.amazon.com/Sports-Mosin-...id=1362574666&sr=1-1&keywords=aim+mosin+mount may even work as well or better.
If you're looking for an affordable laser bore sighter, this one appears to the same one a lot of other brands are slapping their labels onto and selling for far more. http://www.amazon.com/Boresighter-L...1362579166&sr=8-35&keywords=laser+boresighter
I bought the one from Bushnell, and the different set of arbors seems to be better thought out. http://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-7401...=1362579395&sr=1-1&keywords=laser+boresighter
Greg
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The rear sights are off the two remaining M-N's, it was so much easier than getting out the sight leaf blade pin that it was a regular anticlimax. Still awaiting delivery of the mounts.
The sling studs, loops and Garand Slings are in.
The sling studs, loops and Garand Slings are in.
Taking my much modified Mosin (people either love it or hate it, no in between) to the range for testing at 400 yards Sat. 1st time out at this range, it held just over 1.2 MOA out to 400 yards. However, that was a REALLY crappy day. Sat looks good. 60F, 7 MPH wind.
I will post results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uffJdspVmIw
I will post results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uffJdspVmIw
Mounts are in. However, they will require the above mentioned Dremel mods, and the Dremel steadfastly refuses to be located. Project on hold pro tem. My monthly play budget is maxed out, and there are other family/household priorities waiting.
Both sets of mounts are marked AccuShot and UTG, 22/airgun, medium profile, and differ only as 1 inch and 30mm. Mods will require hollowing out the ends of the mounts to eliminate clearance issues between the Mount and the Barrel/Chamber Flare on the aft end, and the rear end of the Handguard on the forward end. It all appears very doable, I just need to find the Dremel. If I need to replace the Dremel, it has to wait for next month's fun 'n games budget.
Still waiting for the rubber 1" butt pad extensions to ship. If the Dremel remains unfound by Friday, I will remount the rear sights an take the Grandkiddos shooting Sunday. Temps are forecast for the upper 50's.
Greg
Both sets of mounts are marked AccuShot and UTG, 22/airgun, medium profile, and differ only as 1 inch and 30mm. Mods will require hollowing out the ends of the mounts to eliminate clearance issues between the Mount and the Barrel/Chamber Flare on the aft end, and the rear end of the Handguard on the forward end. It all appears very doable, I just need to find the Dremel. If I need to replace the Dremel, it has to wait for next month's fun 'n games budget.
Still waiting for the rubber 1" butt pad extensions to ship. If the Dremel remains unfound by Friday, I will remount the rear sights an take the Grandkiddos shooting Sunday. Temps are forecast for the upper 50's.
Greg
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This entire exploration is an education I'm really getting a giant economy size boot out of.
Finding out that a .22 rimfire/airgun scope base is the ultimate answer to my scoping inquiry is just mind blowing.
No wonder folks get hooked on these thingies.
I'm picking up a loaner Dremel this evening.
Greg
Finding out that a .22 rimfire/airgun scope base is the ultimate answer to my scoping inquiry is just mind blowing.
No wonder folks get hooked on these thingies.
I'm picking up a loaner Dremel this evening.
Greg
After trial mounting the mount (w/o any Dremelling) and resting the scope in the cradle, it becomes immediately apparent that the 6" eye relief isn't sufficient. In fact, it's probably at least 4-6" short of what's needed.
The AIM sports package, OTOH, is very feasible, once one replaces the provided see-thru rings with the Millet 30mm low rings.
Looks like the path is clear, return the Bushnell scopes and UTG bases, and order two more of the AIM sports setups and Millet 30mm low rings. My buddy is interested in the same setup; he and I will be trying out my AIM sports setup at the range tomorrow, to see how we like them.
Greg
PS Returns are processed, Replacement items ordered. Final costs reduced by $70, by ordering scopes, rings, bases separately, and substituting AIM scopes and bases, Millet Rings, for Bushnell scopes and UTG/Leapers combined bases/rings.
In the hand, the UTG/Leapers bases and Bushnell 6" eye relief scope appear superior; but on the rifle, the AIM Sports setup works, while the other doesn't.
This could have been a costly lesson, but thanks to Amazon's friendly/easy returns policy, it turned out to be a valuable one.
Kudos to Amazon!
The AIM sports package, OTOH, is very feasible, once one replaces the provided see-thru rings with the Millet 30mm low rings.
Looks like the path is clear, return the Bushnell scopes and UTG bases, and order two more of the AIM sports setups and Millet 30mm low rings. My buddy is interested in the same setup; he and I will be trying out my AIM sports setup at the range tomorrow, to see how we like them.
Greg
PS Returns are processed, Replacement items ordered. Final costs reduced by $70, by ordering scopes, rings, bases separately, and substituting AIM scopes and bases, Millet Rings, for Bushnell scopes and UTG/Leapers combined bases/rings.
In the hand, the UTG/Leapers bases and Bushnell 6" eye relief scope appear superior; but on the rifle, the AIM Sports setup works, while the other doesn't.
This could have been a costly lesson, but thanks to Amazon's friendly/easy returns policy, it turned out to be a valuable one.
Kudos to Amazon!
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As configured, the scope setup costs in the neighborhood of $70-$75 per rifle. Add the original rifle cost of $114, and we have a bargain 'tactical sorta-capable" Mosin for under $200. Before the month is out, I should have three of them on tap.
Scope: http://www.amazon.com/Sports-2-7X42...id=1362861962&sr=8-2&keywords=mosin+aim+scope
Base: http://www.amazon.com/Mosin-Nagant-...id=1362861962&sr=8-8&keywords=mosin+aim+scope
Rings (30mm, low, matte): http://www.amazon.com/Millett-Alumi...=1362862291&sr=1-4&keywords=30+mm+scope+rings
It's certainly no Leupie MK IV setup, but I do believe it will allow the rifle to be sighted in and shot to its accuracy potential. Will see tomorrow, ...all willin' an' the creek don' rise...
I believe it has several practical advantages over the original Soviet Sniper systems.
The scope has greater available magnification as well as a lower magnification for easier target acquisition and snap shooting, and a rudimentary (but coarse) ranging reticle.
The mount is a lot lower, allowing a more realistic cheek weld.
The forward Scout scope mounting approach eliminates the need for a bent bolt handle, permits full/unrestricted use of strippers for loading, and is essentially guaranteed to eliminate scope/face impacts. That last may not seem like much, but after watching several yooboob videos, it's apparent that folks using the PU mounts are clearly way shy of that scope when they are shooting; that alone is probably going to help accuracy.
Greg
Scope: http://www.amazon.com/Sports-2-7X42...id=1362861962&sr=8-2&keywords=mosin+aim+scope
Base: http://www.amazon.com/Mosin-Nagant-...id=1362861962&sr=8-8&keywords=mosin+aim+scope
Rings (30mm, low, matte): http://www.amazon.com/Millett-Alumi...=1362862291&sr=1-4&keywords=30+mm+scope+rings
It's certainly no Leupie MK IV setup, but I do believe it will allow the rifle to be sighted in and shot to its accuracy potential. Will see tomorrow, ...all willin' an' the creek don' rise...
I believe it has several practical advantages over the original Soviet Sniper systems.
The scope has greater available magnification as well as a lower magnification for easier target acquisition and snap shooting, and a rudimentary (but coarse) ranging reticle.
The mount is a lot lower, allowing a more realistic cheek weld.
The forward Scout scope mounting approach eliminates the need for a bent bolt handle, permits full/unrestricted use of strippers for loading, and is essentially guaranteed to eliminate scope/face impacts. That last may not seem like much, but after watching several yooboob videos, it's apparent that folks using the PU mounts are clearly way shy of that scope when they are shooting; that alone is probably going to help accuracy.
Greg
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OK, next hurdle; the sling mounting.
Onhand, three each, Uncle Mike's woodscrew style sling stud and 1.25" sling loops, and replica USGI cotton Garand slings (black).
The rear stud placement is not an issue, but the front may be.
I'm thinking that the stud would work OK at the extreme forward end of the 'belly' of the stock, just abaft the rear band. But when it place another rifle alongside, the stud-to-stud distance appears kinda short.
Are there any opinions about this here on the forum, has anyone tried this, and did they have any problems with the approach? Is there a better location for the forward stud that still allows it to be used for National Match style shooting support?
I'm also considering placing it just to the left of the cleaning rod channel, about even with the existing sling mounting slot (the shooters involved are all shooting righty).
Greg
Onhand, three each, Uncle Mike's woodscrew style sling stud and 1.25" sling loops, and replica USGI cotton Garand slings (black).
The rear stud placement is not an issue, but the front may be.
I'm thinking that the stud would work OK at the extreme forward end of the 'belly' of the stock, just abaft the rear band. But when it place another rifle alongside, the stud-to-stud distance appears kinda short.
Are there any opinions about this here on the forum, has anyone tried this, and did they have any problems with the approach? Is there a better location for the forward stud that still allows it to be used for National Match style shooting support?
I'm also considering placing it just to the left of the cleaning rod channel, about even with the existing sling mounting slot (the shooters involved are all shooting righty).
Greg
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Setback. The outing to try out the scope setup came to as screeching halt when I tried to readjust the base angle and stripped the front screw hole in the aluminum base. Dumb.
After much conjecture about drilling and tapping, I concluded that was dumb too. At under $9.00 apiece, the logical step is to buy a replacement, and get a spare, too.
Scope project on hold pending parts, sling project will proceed today (probably).
BTW, the Spring Thaw is on, bigtime. The range was kinda mucky. Had other tasks to perform yesterday, but we packed up and went a late lunch instead. There will be other days, but for now, other activities beckon.
Greg
After much conjecture about drilling and tapping, I concluded that was dumb too. At under $9.00 apiece, the logical step is to buy a replacement, and get a spare, too.
Scope project on hold pending parts, sling project will proceed today (probably).
BTW, the Spring Thaw is on, bigtime. The range was kinda mucky. Had other tasks to perform yesterday, but we packed up and went a late lunch instead. There will be other days, but for now, other activities beckon.
Greg
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My Buddy who came with me to try out my scope setup ended up witnessing the whole event. On the way home he asked me to get him the same setup. I just finished ordering his stuff plus my replacement base, plus a spare.
We have onhand four scopes and ring sets, have installed three rubber 1" extension butt pads, three sets of Uncle Mike's sling studs (set slightly offset to the left of the centerline to avoid interference with the cleaning rod channel) and 1.25" sling loops, and three repro black cotton Garand slings (which appear to be somewhat thin and insubstantial).
The reason the studs are offset to the left is that I suspect this could favor a right handed shooter better then offsetting them to the right. The front studs are placed just (1/2") abaft the rear stock band to avoid interference with band removal, and to provide the greatest possible span between the sling studs. That span is somewhat less than what's available with the Garand, but a quick try with a hasty sling showed the setup to be serviceable.
The five AIM scope bases are confirmed as arrival scanned into the local PO as of this AM, and the sight leaf hinge pins are soaking with PB Blaster as of yesterday afternoon.
Planning on a scope mounting marathon session over this W/E.
The make/break aspect of tis upgrade is going to hinge on the scope mounts' effectiveness. I'm gonna need to take considerable time and care to get this part right.
I this works out right and stands up well enough to get a collective seal of approval, I'm gonna be quite pleased; but we still have a significant way to go yet.
Greg
The reason the studs are offset to the left is that I suspect this could favor a right handed shooter better then offsetting them to the right. The front studs are placed just (1/2") abaft the rear stock band to avoid interference with band removal, and to provide the greatest possible span between the sling studs. That span is somewhat less than what's available with the Garand, but a quick try with a hasty sling showed the setup to be serviceable.
The five AIM scope bases are confirmed as arrival scanned into the local PO as of this AM, and the sight leaf hinge pins are soaking with PB Blaster as of yesterday afternoon.
Planning on a scope mounting marathon session over this W/E.
The make/break aspect of tis upgrade is going to hinge on the scope mounts' effectiveness. I'm gonna need to take considerable time and care to get this part right.
I this works out right and stands up well enough to get a collective seal of approval, I'm gonna be quite pleased; but we still have a significant way to go yet.
Greg
Did you consider a "Rock Solid" mount?
I've considered a lot of mounts and tried several. This is a work in progress. If what I'm trying doesn't work, I'll report back and continue the experiment by trying with something else. Patience...
As I see it; the problem with the leaf replacement method isn't with the parts but with the installation. I tried doing it quick and dirty, and all I managed to accomplish was to bugger up the mount.
The next attempt, I'll be sneaking up on a solution, taking care to respect the materials' limitations. One thing, the installation advice about using thread lock compound is good advice.
I am beginning to see that the base installation process needs to be done in steps, building to a refined solution.
I am also thinking about finalizing the scope base installation by infilling the leaf sight base recess with resin once the proper scope base position has become established and confirmed.
Weather is back down below freezing with snow forecast for later today. I am really appreciating the Cumberland Pellet Stove Celia bought us last month. It's an absolute Cadillac.
Greg
As I see it; the problem with the leaf replacement method isn't with the parts but with the installation. I tried doing it quick and dirty, and all I managed to accomplish was to bugger up the mount.
The next attempt, I'll be sneaking up on a solution, taking care to respect the materials' limitations. One thing, the installation advice about using thread lock compound is good advice.
I am beginning to see that the base installation process needs to be done in steps, building to a refined solution.
I am also thinking about finalizing the scope base installation by infilling the leaf sight base recess with resin once the proper scope base position has become established and confirmed.
Weather is back down below freezing with snow forecast for later today. I am really appreciating the Cumberland Pellet Stove Celia bought us last month. It's an absolute Cadillac.
Greg
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I will PM you something you may be interested in. Let me know if you want me to.
Of course I'm interested, but I may also be on the trail of a viable solution as we type. More importantly, maybe the rest of the forum can use the info, too.
Scope bases onhand.
Hand assembling the base on its pivot screws uncovered a bit of slop between the screws and the rear sight leaf mount. I mic'd the leaf pin at .120" and the screws at .115". Selecting a .120" drill bit, I reamed the sight base hole to that diameter and reattached the base to the rear leaf mount with the original leaf pin. Slop is almost undetectable now. BTW, the base pivot screw threads still engage, but I'm putting the screws up into the spares tin. This also alleviated the need for thread locker on the pivot screws, which would have been the only area I would have considered using some.
The scope and rings were assembled earlier. I ran the elevation adjuster down to bottom and backed it off 1/2 a turn. I then backed off the three locking setscrews from the three base adjuster screws by about 1 turn and a half each. There is one adjuster screw just barely ahead of the pivot and two more rather a bit further rearward. Starting with all adjusters flush with the bottom of the base, I extended the middle screw downward until it bottomed against the leaf base with the base rail as close to parallel with the bore as can be reckoned with the MKI eyeball. I then extended the front adjuster screw until it just touched the sight leaf base, backing it off and re-extending it gingerly until the vertical tilt/wiggle of the base is just gone, with no heavy tension.
I then set the scope/ring assembly onto the base and boresighted the scope against a mark on the wall about 10ft away. The top crosswire on the 'rangefinding' reticle is aligned about 1" above the mark on the wall, to compensate for scope height above bore. This alignment is arbitrary, and the adjuster screws will need to be played with, removing and replacing the scope, until the proper reticle/mark alignment is arrived at. Make these adjustments by backing the front screw free, and adjusting the rear screw up or down, then using the front screw to (just barely) remove any tilt/play from the base. When everything lines up, extend the rearmost adjuster screw down into definite, but not forceful, contact with the rear sight leaf base, and tighten all of the adjuster screw locking setscrews.
If this setup is done right, none of the screws should be extended forcefully against the rear sight leaf base, and there should be no palpable slop/play in the base/scope setup. If you're cranking on anything, you're not doing anything useful.
The net effect of this procedure is to set the base up with a slope that corresponds to a near-in zero that is at or about at the lower extent of the scope's elevation adjustment range. This custom aligns the scope/base to the ideal slope angle. About all of the scope's elevation adjustment range is available for establishing longer distance zeros.
The point of all this messin' around with such an old rifle is an effort to develop a moderately tactical-capable rifle for an overall cost of somewhere around $200-$250. Done right, its capability meets or exceeds that of the generic WWII Russian Sniper implement. If this project actually works out, then this "cheap shooter" concept has moved on along to a satisfactory end.
Greg
Hand assembling the base on its pivot screws uncovered a bit of slop between the screws and the rear sight leaf mount. I mic'd the leaf pin at .120" and the screws at .115". Selecting a .120" drill bit, I reamed the sight base hole to that diameter and reattached the base to the rear leaf mount with the original leaf pin. Slop is almost undetectable now. BTW, the base pivot screw threads still engage, but I'm putting the screws up into the spares tin. This also alleviated the need for thread locker on the pivot screws, which would have been the only area I would have considered using some.
The scope and rings were assembled earlier. I ran the elevation adjuster down to bottom and backed it off 1/2 a turn. I then backed off the three locking setscrews from the three base adjuster screws by about 1 turn and a half each. There is one adjuster screw just barely ahead of the pivot and two more rather a bit further rearward. Starting with all adjusters flush with the bottom of the base, I extended the middle screw downward until it bottomed against the leaf base with the base rail as close to parallel with the bore as can be reckoned with the MKI eyeball. I then extended the front adjuster screw until it just touched the sight leaf base, backing it off and re-extending it gingerly until the vertical tilt/wiggle of the base is just gone, with no heavy tension.
I then set the scope/ring assembly onto the base and boresighted the scope against a mark on the wall about 10ft away. The top crosswire on the 'rangefinding' reticle is aligned about 1" above the mark on the wall, to compensate for scope height above bore. This alignment is arbitrary, and the adjuster screws will need to be played with, removing and replacing the scope, until the proper reticle/mark alignment is arrived at. Make these adjustments by backing the front screw free, and adjusting the rear screw up or down, then using the front screw to (just barely) remove any tilt/play from the base. When everything lines up, extend the rearmost adjuster screw down into definite, but not forceful, contact with the rear sight leaf base, and tighten all of the adjuster screw locking setscrews.
If this setup is done right, none of the screws should be extended forcefully against the rear sight leaf base, and there should be no palpable slop/play in the base/scope setup. If you're cranking on anything, you're not doing anything useful.
The net effect of this procedure is to set the base up with a slope that corresponds to a near-in zero that is at or about at the lower extent of the scope's elevation adjustment range. This custom aligns the scope/base to the ideal slope angle. About all of the scope's elevation adjustment range is available for establishing longer distance zeros.
The point of all this messin' around with such an old rifle is an effort to develop a moderately tactical-capable rifle for an overall cost of somewhere around $200-$250. Done right, its capability meets or exceeds that of the generic WWII Russian Sniper implement. If this project actually works out, then this "cheap shooter" concept has moved on along to a satisfactory end.
Greg
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BTW, the additional rifles are in the "soak the sight leaf pin with PB Blaster, whack on the pin some, and wait..." phase. Two-three days worth so far. In desperation, I just added some Hoppe's #9.
Need to finish these rifle improvements on the other rifles and test the bunch before giving the project any 'seals of approval'.
Waiting...
Need to finish these rifle improvements on the other rifles and test the bunch before giving the project any 'seals of approval'.
Waiting...
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Still soaking, still whackin', this is getting frustrating, the pins simply will not budge. I may need to rethink this.
I have other obligations and interests which are to the point where they cannot be ignored any longer. This project and all my other shooting projects will be on hold for the next several weeks. The house is undergoing structural renovations and family recreations are soon upcoming.
Greg
I have other obligations and interests which are to the point where they cannot be ignored any longer. This project and all my other shooting projects will be on hold for the next several weeks. The house is undergoing structural renovations and family recreations are soon upcoming.
Greg
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Whew; busy coupla weeks.
The house (from 1880's?) is undergoing a major refit. Roof is on, siding is mostly on, both front porches are gone and mostly replaced.
Meanwhile, just got back from a 2 week family vacation on Tybee Island, GA (just East on the coast from Savannah). Even our two cats made the trek.
The cash flow is approaching arterial. Thank goodness it's a one-time thing.
Will be unpacking the Mosins this week and resuming the project. My nagging concern is about those mounting pins. Folk wisdom suggests that some of them were soldered into place, and I'm beginning to suspect mine may be among them. If they don't come free soon, I may be stymied. Gonna have to figure something else out if it's so.
Greg
The house (from 1880's?) is undergoing a major refit. Roof is on, siding is mostly on, both front porches are gone and mostly replaced.
Meanwhile, just got back from a 2 week family vacation on Tybee Island, GA (just East on the coast from Savannah). Even our two cats made the trek.
The cash flow is approaching arterial. Thank goodness it's a one-time thing.
Will be unpacking the Mosins this week and resuming the project. My nagging concern is about those mounting pins. Folk wisdom suggests that some of them were soldered into place, and I'm beginning to suspect mine may be among them. If they don't come free soon, I may be stymied. Gonna have to figure something else out if it's so.
Greg
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Greg,
I just came across this thread today. I read the whole thread, and I guess that I have also been bitten by the "need" to get some vintage battle rifles. I bought my first M1 Garand two months ago, and really love it. I started reading about Swiss Schmidt-Rubin's, because my Swiss Uncle has one, and I did up some rounds to try in his rifle next time we visit. I shall have to get one of them now, and it seems that you have just planted the seeds of need in me for a Mosin-Nagant also.
Really enjoyed reading through your odyssey here, and it seems that you have enjoyed it even more experiencing it.
Thanks for sharing,
I just came across this thread today. I read the whole thread, and I guess that I have also been bitten by the "need" to get some vintage battle rifles. I bought my first M1 Garand two months ago, and really love it. I started reading about Swiss Schmidt-Rubin's, because my Swiss Uncle has one, and I did up some rounds to try in his rifle next time we visit. I shall have to get one of them now, and it seems that you have just planted the seeds of need in me for a Mosin-Nagant also.
Really enjoyed reading through your odyssey here, and it seems that you have enjoyed it even more experiencing it.
Thanks for sharing,
My DCM Garand is about my most treasured rifle. It fueled my somewhat less than superlative N/M Highpower career and provided nearly a decade of joy and frustration. These days it wears improved sights and a 1" butt pad extension, and was home bedded according to the method described and illustrated in the NRA's M1 Garand reprint pamphlet. Handloads taken from the same publication shoot better than do, and it comes out to play every year just after things dry out again following the Spring Thaw here in Central NY.
I'm kinda surprised it took me this many years to catch onto the Mosin-Nagant 91/30's unique brand of challenge and reward. Basic as a claw hammer, it still exhibits a kind of homely practicality and devotion to purpose that gives the lie to Cold War propaganda that depicted Soviet armaments as clumsy and shoddy. Frugal and foolproof would be more to the point based on my limited experience. If you want the elegance and style of a Buick, get a Garand. If you want the ubiquitous charm and reliability of the Model T, the 91/30 serves nearly perfectly.
I am somewhat torn between purism and Bubbafication. Fortunately, with the 91/30, the financials are such that one can afford both aspects. This assumes continued availability. I have already noted a 50% increase in price on the in-store racks. Cheaper ones exist on the net, and apparently tend to dematerialize when a serious order is attempted.
As I continue with my project, I remain mindful that knowledge is like manure, it's less attractive until one spreads it around.
Greg
I'm kinda surprised it took me this many years to catch onto the Mosin-Nagant 91/30's unique brand of challenge and reward. Basic as a claw hammer, it still exhibits a kind of homely practicality and devotion to purpose that gives the lie to Cold War propaganda that depicted Soviet armaments as clumsy and shoddy. Frugal and foolproof would be more to the point based on my limited experience. If you want the elegance and style of a Buick, get a Garand. If you want the ubiquitous charm and reliability of the Model T, the 91/30 serves nearly perfectly.
I am somewhat torn between purism and Bubbafication. Fortunately, with the 91/30, the financials are such that one can afford both aspects. This assumes continued availability. I have already noted a 50% increase in price on the in-store racks. Cheaper ones exist on the net, and apparently tend to dematerialize when a serious order is attempted.
As I continue with my project, I remain mindful that knowledge is like manure, it's less attractive until one spreads it around.
Greg
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What did you use to extend the butt pad? Did you just get a recoil pad and attach it to the rifle? I pulled my stock end off and looked at it thinking I could make a spacer for it, but I was a little put off by the two screws. I would want to use similar screws in a longer length. I was going to do a stop-gap by putting a slip on Limb-Saver on, like I did with most of my other rifles. I am 6', and long armed, and the standard LOP is allways short for me. Also, the iron sights are quite an adjustment for me, but I think they will improve my shooting on scoped rifles too. I do need to be way back from the rear sight to get the accuracy---well, at least closer to-that I want.
Thanks for all the posts. They make for a great read-----I may cuss you out later, when I start to spend money on an M-N.......but then, that goes back to personal responsibility, so I can't cuss at you.
All the best with your project, and so glad you can do this for your grand-kids as a grandpa/grandkid shooting experience(s).
Thanks for all the posts. They make for a great read-----I may cuss you out later, when I start to spend money on an M-N.......but then, that goes back to personal responsibility, so I can't cuss at you.
All the best with your project, and so glad you can do this for your grand-kids as a grandpa/grandkid shooting experience(s).
I use this pad: M-1 Garand Pad : SEMI-AUTO RIFLE RECOIL PAD | Brownells with my Garand. It's a simple, straight replacement for the original steel butt plate. I think I bought it at a Gun Show nearly two decades ago. Not soft, more like hard as a rock, but it's non-slip and definitely adds needed LOP.
Greg
Greg
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Thanks for the intel. I will check it out. I found the M1 didn't kick too much, just was too short for me. I think if I need any recoil softener, I can still put a thinner Limb Saver on it after the new butt pad.
Thanks again for all the good info.
I have reviewed my options, the pins will not move. Will Dremel the sight leaves to release them, then proceed with scope mounting. I can buy replacement sight leaves and pins https://www.buymilsurp.com/rear-sight-leaf-with-slider-m9130-mosin-nagant-rifle-p-9.html should the need arise.
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Greg, just read the whole thread and I must say you're having way too much fun! But then, that was the whole ideas right?!
I'm doing similar to a couple 91/30's I picked up at a LGS last fall. One I'm trying to keep as authentic as possible, the other no holds barred - ordered the Archangle stock last month and can't wait for it to arrive. 2013 New Products | Archangel Manufacturing
So many cool mods possible for these and, considering mine are 1944 models with no collector value at all, they may both end up as "tactical" mosins!
Look forward to more updates.
-ralph
I'm doing similar to a couple 91/30's I picked up at a LGS last fall. One I'm trying to keep as authentic as possible, the other no holds barred - ordered the Archangle stock last month and can't wait for it to arrive. 2013 New Products | Archangel Manufacturing
So many cool mods possible for these and, considering mine are 1944 models with no collector value at all, they may both end up as "tactical" mosins!
Look forward to more updates.
-ralph
Yesterday was 'Dremel Day' (shudder). Removed the sight leaves by means of radical surgery. Not pretty. But it's done. Had to remove about a 1/4" square of material from each leaf to free it from the sight mount. Once free, the remnants of the pins drove out with a pin punch. There will need to be some bluing touchup. If these were Remagechesters, I'd be abasing myself with great vigor.
The scopes are now initially mounted an all the rifles. I expect there will need to be some final minor adjustment to the base slope. I deviated from the recommended installation by omitting the base pivot screws and replacing them with M/N Sight Base pins, which required enlarging the pivot holes in the bases from .115" to .120"-.125". Fortunately I have a set of number drills from a previous lifetime, and everything is snug and slop-free. It's not anywhere near as rigid and indestructible as some of the high end mounting systems we see on tactical rifles, but I think it's good enough for range use, and some prudent field carry and usage. Each M/N base still retains one of its two pins, and the bases look to be solid and rigid even minus one of their two pins. I took the precaution of mic'ing each pin and drilling accordingly. Good thing; they vary enough to require this.
The previous prototyping and experimentation with scopes and rings seems to have yielded a setup that eliminates nearly all of the excess scope height from the arrangement. The cheek weld is not ideal, but the stock does have cheek contact, if not cheekbone contact. I suspect I will end up adding some sort of additional cheek support somewhere down the road, but for now, the arrangement is satisfactory and nearing in on ideal.
(Edited to add - I just ordered Beartooth stock comb raising kits to address the cheekweld height issue: Amazon.com: Beartooth Stock Comb Raising Kit - Black: Sports & Outdoors I'm looking at estimated delivery next Monday or Tuesday.)
The weather remains cooler and windier, mostly from a bad direction, and we are still definitely in the April Showers portion of the environmental program. While not quite a sucking quagmire, the ground continues to be soft and easily disturbed. Prudence dictates a bit more of a wait before bringing the rifles to the range. I will end up with 3 scoped 91/30's, and a good friend wants me to duplicate the arrangement on his. He has significant vision issues that preclude his being able to employ iron sights.
I'm not expecting surgically precise accuracy. I will be very happy of the rifles demonstrate 2MOA or better performance. I consider that to be roughly equivalent to the original 91/30 Sniper rifle's honest performance. The entire thrust of this scope mounting project is to permit a sighting arrangement that is readily adjustable, allowing a genuine zero to be established and adjusted for practical distances, whatever they may turn out to be.
The emphasis of this project has always been to provide a cheap rifle that shoots well enough to earn its way in the collection and at the range. This arrangement provides a relatively practical scope mounting application that still permits stripper clip reloads, not too unlike the K98 Mauser ZF-41 system. I would not venture to call the rifle a tactical implement or a sniper rifle, but I do believe it could earn a description as an improved vintage service rifle.
Base: $8.85
Rings: $15.95
Scope: $43.90
Total expense per rifle, including tax and shipping from Amazon: $73.49.
Until range results are in, it's still too early to call the project a success, but at least the costs are in line with the goals. Depending on the price of the 91/30, overall costs for the resulting rifle should run somewhere around $200-$250.
If I were to evolve this system into a 'Gen-2 Version', I think it could be successfully brought off using the short rendition of the base. Amazon.com: Aim Sports M44/Mosin Nagant 91/30 Scope Mount (Short): Sports & Outdoors
Greg
The scopes are now initially mounted an all the rifles. I expect there will need to be some final minor adjustment to the base slope. I deviated from the recommended installation by omitting the base pivot screws and replacing them with M/N Sight Base pins, which required enlarging the pivot holes in the bases from .115" to .120"-.125". Fortunately I have a set of number drills from a previous lifetime, and everything is snug and slop-free. It's not anywhere near as rigid and indestructible as some of the high end mounting systems we see on tactical rifles, but I think it's good enough for range use, and some prudent field carry and usage. Each M/N base still retains one of its two pins, and the bases look to be solid and rigid even minus one of their two pins. I took the precaution of mic'ing each pin and drilling accordingly. Good thing; they vary enough to require this.
The previous prototyping and experimentation with scopes and rings seems to have yielded a setup that eliminates nearly all of the excess scope height from the arrangement. The cheek weld is not ideal, but the stock does have cheek contact, if not cheekbone contact. I suspect I will end up adding some sort of additional cheek support somewhere down the road, but for now, the arrangement is satisfactory and nearing in on ideal.
(Edited to add - I just ordered Beartooth stock comb raising kits to address the cheekweld height issue: Amazon.com: Beartooth Stock Comb Raising Kit - Black: Sports & Outdoors I'm looking at estimated delivery next Monday or Tuesday.)
The weather remains cooler and windier, mostly from a bad direction, and we are still definitely in the April Showers portion of the environmental program. While not quite a sucking quagmire, the ground continues to be soft and easily disturbed. Prudence dictates a bit more of a wait before bringing the rifles to the range. I will end up with 3 scoped 91/30's, and a good friend wants me to duplicate the arrangement on his. He has significant vision issues that preclude his being able to employ iron sights.
I'm not expecting surgically precise accuracy. I will be very happy of the rifles demonstrate 2MOA or better performance. I consider that to be roughly equivalent to the original 91/30 Sniper rifle's honest performance. The entire thrust of this scope mounting project is to permit a sighting arrangement that is readily adjustable, allowing a genuine zero to be established and adjusted for practical distances, whatever they may turn out to be.
The emphasis of this project has always been to provide a cheap rifle that shoots well enough to earn its way in the collection and at the range. This arrangement provides a relatively practical scope mounting application that still permits stripper clip reloads, not too unlike the K98 Mauser ZF-41 system. I would not venture to call the rifle a tactical implement or a sniper rifle, but I do believe it could earn a description as an improved vintage service rifle.
Base: $8.85
Rings: $15.95
Scope: $43.90
Total expense per rifle, including tax and shipping from Amazon: $73.49.
Until range results are in, it's still too early to call the project a success, but at least the costs are in line with the goals. Depending on the price of the 91/30, overall costs for the resulting rifle should run somewhere around $200-$250.
If I were to evolve this system into a 'Gen-2 Version', I think it could be successfully brought off using the short rendition of the base. Amazon.com: Aim Sports M44/Mosin Nagant 91/30 Scope Mount (Short): Sports & Outdoors
Greg
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I refined the base slope angle on the rifles.
Starting by cranking the scope's elevation adjustment down to the low end, and backing it off a half turn, I inserted a laser bore sighter in the muzzle. Sighting through the scope, I set the base slope so the crosshair rests about 3-4" above the red laser dot at a distance of about 15ft without making any adjustment to the scope's elevation turret. This required removing the scope, adjusting the slope angle, and replacing the scope a series of times until the reticle and laser dot assumed the desired relationship.
I finished by bringing all the (3) base adjuster screws to dead contact without any significant torque, checking for any base play. I believe it would be a mistake to torque these screws, stressing the mount; all that is needed is enough tightening to remove play, and no more. The entire task of setting the base angle for four rifles consumed a little more than an hour; after the first one, the rest went quite quickly.
The adjuster screw setscrews were snugged up and the reticle was centered left/right on the laser dot. One of the rifles required a shim between ring and base to get the horizontal alignment right.
This establishes a roughly common POI for the rifles and provides a starting point for zeroing.
I hope...
Greg
Starting by cranking the scope's elevation adjustment down to the low end, and backing it off a half turn, I inserted a laser bore sighter in the muzzle. Sighting through the scope, I set the base slope so the crosshair rests about 3-4" above the red laser dot at a distance of about 15ft without making any adjustment to the scope's elevation turret. This required removing the scope, adjusting the slope angle, and replacing the scope a series of times until the reticle and laser dot assumed the desired relationship.
I finished by bringing all the (3) base adjuster screws to dead contact without any significant torque, checking for any base play. I believe it would be a mistake to torque these screws, stressing the mount; all that is needed is enough tightening to remove play, and no more. The entire task of setting the base angle for four rifles consumed a little more than an hour; after the first one, the rest went quite quickly.
The adjuster screw setscrews were snugged up and the reticle was centered left/right on the laser dot. One of the rifles required a shim between ring and base to get the horizontal alignment right.
This establishes a roughly common POI for the rifles and provides a starting point for zeroing.
I hope...
Greg
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Sounds good, Greg. I have read with interest your journey of development here, and look forward to the range report in due course. Good Luck with them!
At this point, it's a matter of waiting for the weather to 'Spring Up" and dry out so the targets can be put out and maintained without having to slog through mud.
Finalized the rifles by installing the stock comb raising kits Amazon.com: bear cheek rest , which was a pretty intense process.
I installed all the spacers except the thickest one, providing about 1" of lift to the combs of the rifles. First, I wrapped the stacks with masking tape to anchor and compress them before installing the skins. The skins then had to be stretched and located for best coverage. BTW, the skins need to be stretched onto the stocks before applying the stacks, or you may never manage to get them on afterwards. Once the stacks are taped down it's still a (pardon the pun) bear of a task to arrange the skins. After doing this for four rifles yesterday, my hands are very sore, and will probably be so for another couple of days. But the final result looks good and provides badly needed help with establishing a far more reasonable cheekweld.
The finishing touch is Bulldog 52" Economy Rifle Cases Amazon.com: bulldog 52 economy rifle case , I chose the green ones. These are (just) long enough for a buttpad extension, and (just) deep enough to close over the Scout Scope mounting.
Finally, the grinding marks left from the sight leaf Dremeling were very easily remedied using a Birchwood Casey Perma Blue Touchup Pen.
Greg
I installed all the spacers except the thickest one, providing about 1" of lift to the combs of the rifles. First, I wrapped the stacks with masking tape to anchor and compress them before installing the skins. The skins then had to be stretched and located for best coverage. BTW, the skins need to be stretched onto the stocks before applying the stacks, or you may never manage to get them on afterwards. Once the stacks are taped down it's still a (pardon the pun) bear of a task to arrange the skins. After doing this for four rifles yesterday, my hands are very sore, and will probably be so for another couple of days. But the final result looks good and provides badly needed help with establishing a far more reasonable cheekweld.
The finishing touch is Bulldog 52" Economy Rifle Cases Amazon.com: bulldog 52 economy rifle case , I chose the green ones. These are (just) long enough for a buttpad extension, and (just) deep enough to close over the Scout Scope mounting.
Finally, the grinding marks left from the sight leaf Dremeling were very easily remedied using a Birchwood Casey Perma Blue Touchup Pen.
Greg
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Cool!. Can you do pics? I'd love to see these masterpieces!
Pictures are among my greatest weaknesses. I have only ever posted one since joining The 'Hide and that was nearly a decade back.
I hesitate strongly to call these rifles masterpieces, These are Bubba-facts at very best. It remains to be seen at yet whether they will even work right.
There is a local FV250 Match scheduled for today, and I'm going to have to miss it. Conditions are predicted to be in the 30's with wind in double digits, and I'm just not hardy enough for that anymore. Waiting for more Spring-like days before venturing out.
Meanwhile, the home continues to undergo renovations. Today my Bride has me accompanying her to Lowe's to pick out/pick up a new kitchen sink and assorted plumbing (easily my least favorite subject).
Patience...
Greg
I hesitate strongly to call these rifles masterpieces, These are Bubba-facts at very best. It remains to be seen at yet whether they will even work right.
There is a local FV250 Match scheduled for today, and I'm going to have to miss it. Conditions are predicted to be in the 30's with wind in double digits, and I'm just not hardy enough for that anymore. Waiting for more Spring-like days before venturing out.
Meanwhile, the home continues to undergo renovations. Today my Bride has me accompanying her to Lowe's to pick out/pick up a new kitchen sink and assorted plumbing (easily my least favorite subject).
Patience...
Greg
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While awaiting more clement conditions, I think it's time to reflect upon this evolution. That's a very pertinent term, 'evolution'.
I've learned enormously about the history and performance of the Mosin-Nagant 91/30. The first I've learned is that a basic design can be improved upon, and the 91/30 represents a good example of the adage. I've also learned that once improved, further efforts may be counterproductive, as I believe personally that later 'bobbed' versions could be. Others can find pleasure with them, but the 91/30 seems a better fit for my expectations.
I've learned that Stalin's quip about quantity having a quality all its own, fielding large numbers of utterly basic and indestructible implements of warfare trumps the complex elegance that helped lead the Nazi horde to its own demise. Likewise, Western propaganda criticizing ComBloc hardware as overly simplistic and shoddy appears misleading. The stuff works with utter reliability, and accomplishes a rather undemanding task uniquely well. The 91/30 stands out rather well in this regard too.
For me, to be an elder codger finding new appreciation for a rifle that's literally older than myself is a highly refreshing experience.
As a core-basic armature upon which to assemble more modern accoutrements, the 91/30 provides fun and challenge, while managing to keep the upgrades affordable, The primary upgrade components used in my project total out under $70. This may all turn out to be a 'garbage in..., garbage out...' exercise, but even if so, it's not a huge waste of resource.
...And who knows, 'maybe the horse will learn to sing after all...'.
Greg
I've learned enormously about the history and performance of the Mosin-Nagant 91/30. The first I've learned is that a basic design can be improved upon, and the 91/30 represents a good example of the adage. I've also learned that once improved, further efforts may be counterproductive, as I believe personally that later 'bobbed' versions could be. Others can find pleasure with them, but the 91/30 seems a better fit for my expectations.
I've learned that Stalin's quip about quantity having a quality all its own, fielding large numbers of utterly basic and indestructible implements of warfare trumps the complex elegance that helped lead the Nazi horde to its own demise. Likewise, Western propaganda criticizing ComBloc hardware as overly simplistic and shoddy appears misleading. The stuff works with utter reliability, and accomplishes a rather undemanding task uniquely well. The 91/30 stands out rather well in this regard too.
For me, to be an elder codger finding new appreciation for a rifle that's literally older than myself is a highly refreshing experience.
As a core-basic armature upon which to assemble more modern accoutrements, the 91/30 provides fun and challenge, while managing to keep the upgrades affordable, The primary upgrade components used in my project total out under $70. This may all turn out to be a 'garbage in..., garbage out...' exercise, but even if so, it's not a huge waste of resource.
...And who knows, 'maybe the horse will learn to sing after all...'.
Greg
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As of yesterday, the house siding is complete (originally scheduled for completion by Christmas 2012). The front porch flooring and rails are next, and the fieldstone foundation needs repointing with mortar. There's also a bunch of painting somewhere down the line. I expect to give as much of this work to my Son-in-Law as he can manage.
The weather has me exasperated. Most days are clear, but the temp on rising is pretty consistently a light frost, and winds pick up to a brisk pace some thereafter. Pretty days, but not well suited to range work.
I am working on my patience with mixed success.
Greg
The weather has me exasperated. Most days are clear, but the temp on rising is pretty consistently a light frost, and winds pick up to a brisk pace some thereafter. Pretty days, but not well suited to range work.
I am working on my patience with mixed success.
Greg
Beautiful day, performed the shakedown/zeroing/off the cuff evaluation of the 91/30's. All four were involved, me and my Buddy with the eyes issue.
Starting at about 8yd, we adjusted the base slope adjustments maybe six or seven times, which involved removing the scope/rings, adjusting the base screws, finally replacing the scope/rings. By the end, we had it down to a science, doing the last few in about three minutes per cycle. We ended up getting registration shots within a couple of inches of POA at 100yd. With four rifles it was quick and dirty, and still took over two hours, including at least a half dozen trips down to the targets at 100yd, and more at the intermediate distances.
Initial impressions are that the mount/scope system works, but I'm leaving it to successive sessions to refine the zero and shoot with serious attention to getting definitive groups. I think it best to leave such work to my Grandkiddos with some of my supervision. But all in all, I think we're going to really enjoy shooting these rifles together.
Only one rifle demonstrated any issues, one of the Grandkids' 1934 Izshevsks appears to have something resembling sticky chamber syndrome. Maybe not cosmoline, though; the extracted fired cases all show distinct gouging, more like something evidencing a burr. Complete cartridges an be fed and extracted without issue.
My buddy was very apprehensive about how this project was going to work for him. He gets injections into each eyeball every month, and does not have sufficient visual acuity to get good results with iron sights. After bringing his rifle to a successful 100yd zero he is greatly relieved, and especially pleased with the degree of success he's achieved so far. I think that with some additional practice, he's going to happy overall. He is a Marine Veteran, wounded in the Khe Sanh Hill Fights Hill Fights Narrative, performing duties as an F/O until he was Medevac'd.
Summing up, four rifles, averaging $200-$250 apiece, with a high potential to maybe even rival the performance of the original PE/PU Sniper rifle, maybe not, but in the ball park anyway.
I'm not quite ready to call it a win, but I do believe the project is in the home stretch. Been a ball so far...
Greg
Starting at about 8yd, we adjusted the base slope adjustments maybe six or seven times, which involved removing the scope/rings, adjusting the base screws, finally replacing the scope/rings. By the end, we had it down to a science, doing the last few in about three minutes per cycle. We ended up getting registration shots within a couple of inches of POA at 100yd. With four rifles it was quick and dirty, and still took over two hours, including at least a half dozen trips down to the targets at 100yd, and more at the intermediate distances.
Initial impressions are that the mount/scope system works, but I'm leaving it to successive sessions to refine the zero and shoot with serious attention to getting definitive groups. I think it best to leave such work to my Grandkiddos with some of my supervision. But all in all, I think we're going to really enjoy shooting these rifles together.
Only one rifle demonstrated any issues, one of the Grandkids' 1934 Izshevsks appears to have something resembling sticky chamber syndrome. Maybe not cosmoline, though; the extracted fired cases all show distinct gouging, more like something evidencing a burr. Complete cartridges an be fed and extracted without issue.
My buddy was very apprehensive about how this project was going to work for him. He gets injections into each eyeball every month, and does not have sufficient visual acuity to get good results with iron sights. After bringing his rifle to a successful 100yd zero he is greatly relieved, and especially pleased with the degree of success he's achieved so far. I think that with some additional practice, he's going to happy overall. He is a Marine Veteran, wounded in the Khe Sanh Hill Fights Hill Fights Narrative, performing duties as an F/O until he was Medevac'd.
Summing up, four rifles, averaging $200-$250 apiece, with a high potential to maybe even rival the performance of the original PE/PU Sniper rifle, maybe not, but in the ball park anyway.
I'm not quite ready to call it a win, but I do believe the project is in the home stretch. Been a ball so far...
Greg
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Go for a 91/30 if you want to stay Russian or an M39 if you want a nicer gun. You won't go wrong with either. The Russian Nagants are like AK's in a way. Most are not terribly accurate with factory ammo, and many aren't accurate no matter what you do. But they are incredibly simple and always seem to go bang.