Need Advice/Accuracy Form issues

[Navybowhunter]

Hello all,

I have a POF-308 20", with a Leupold MARK AR 3x9 40mm scope. Will be installing a Giesselle SD-E trigger as soon as it arrives in the mail.

Have a challenge with a few friends coming up, a 300 yard accuracy challenge. Goal is tightest 3 shot group (objective is a 2" group) at 300 yards, shooting from a bench. We can use a bipod but nothing else for rear stock support.

So, went to the range today, with some American Eagle ammo, and let 20 rounds down range. I saw some of the online training videos in here, and realize I am all screwed up form wise. Trigger control wise. And Breathing wise.

Humbled. Just got back from the range. Shooting 100 yards, just using the bipod, and applying a little forward pressure to the legs, and working on the trigger/breathing control. Well, my groups sucked! LOL.....I so wanted to grab a few sandbags, and prop up/support the rear buttstock. But I did not, that is not what the contest is about. So, I need the practice. One group was less than 1", but a lot of flyers. Likely me pulling the shot. Most of them were "climbing", none were low/sinking.

I also found that shooting both eyes open (which I like to do), was straining on my eyes. I think I will tape/black out the left eye on my glasses.

I really need to work on supporting that rear stock better in my shoulder. (right handed), also need to figure out the correct placement for my left arm (from a sitting position on a bench).....I found myself wedging my left index finger inside the rear stock (I have that A2 M-16 style stock), sling holder. Whenever I tensed my left arm, it moved the rear stock I am sure.

Sweat on my eye brow, and shooting eye in the glasses sucked also! I have them "pro ears" muffs. Maybe I need to just use foamies so the muff does not interfere with the buttstock.

Lots to learn, and more practice to be had. I also should have ate something..., was a little jittery cause I was hungry.

Next visit will be with the Giesselle trigger installed, but I view that like my golfing. I have yet to play golf better with my King Cobra (somewhat pricey) clubs, than I do with the cheapest rentals.....score is normally the same! LOL

I view that similarly with this AR stuff, I can dump another grand into an already impressive rifle that I have not even begun to outshoot the weapon in its stock configuration.

Any and all advice is appreciated. Guess I admitted the first step....I suck! LOL

R/
Chris

 

[KillShot]

Practice makes perfect, as it's often said. Dry fire practice in your living room, backyard, garage, or wherever is comfortable for you will help you with getting a lot of the fundamentals of marksmanship down without expending a ton of ammo on the range.

When dry fire practicing, be sure to setup and go through the motions just as you would if you we're lining up with a 300yd shot or whatever the case may be. Paying close attention to your form, follow through, and so on will get you to the point when it becomes natural and it isn't something you have to remind yourself to do or think about, like driving a car as Lowlight said in the recent training video.

 

[Navybowhunter]

OK, just moved this to this thread from the semi-auto thread. Figure this is a more appropriate spot for it. While perusing some topics, I found one from a guy mentioning bipod hop. There was a video on there, where he had this hop, until he moved his left had to where the magazine would be, and supported the rifle from there.
I was tucking my left arm almost into my right armpit. Thought that was the correct form.
So, I'll ask this....
I know I should have ate first....won't make that mistake again.
What is the proper form for shooting from a bench (typical range bench) where should my left arm/hand be? Around the magazine? positioned on the forward rails?
I think that was one of my issues.
Appreciate the help/advice in advance.
R/
Chris

 

[KillShot]

Your left, or non-shooting hand, should be supporting the rifle buttstock with either a monopod or shooting bag. TAB Gear makes a good shooting bag for $20. The only points of contact that you should have with the rifle is your firing hand and the rifle tucked into the shoulder pocket.

In relation to bipod hop, that results in failure to properly load the bipod. You don't want to muscle it but rather engage it with dead weight. You want your shooting position to be as natural and comfortable as possible because an unnatural or uncomfortable position will lead to fatigue which will result in an advanced heart rate.

Refer to this video.

 

[Navybowhunter]

That is an awesome video. I will not be able to support the rear of the stock with anything but my shoulder from the sitting position. That is the rule for the challenge, and it is not gonna change! LOL
So.....
Should my left arm "support arm" (I watched the video in case you were checking LOL), be tucked in supporting the stock, or should it be forward supporting the rails?

I called the dude I'm competing against, and If I could have had a sandbag, or a monopod on rear stock, it would have been easier for sure. But..... he ain't going for that. so, I will need to perfect my support arm form.

Any advice for that?

R/
Chris

 

[threetrees]

first learn to get tight groups with front/back support. then leave the back-support away. first learn to walk, then to run ...

 

[Navybowhunter]

Thanks threetrees, I hear ya. I have 30 days, which is about 5 - 7 range visits live fire before the challenge. I will practice at home, the form.

IF my form were good, where should my left arm (support arm), be? Knowing that I cannot use a rear bag or monopod?

Thanks all!

R/
Chris

 

[kraigWY]

I think you might consider attending a CMP GSM Clinic. It will help you with the fundamentals which seems to be the problem.

They have one in Maryland the 26th of April. These clinics are put on by CMP Master Instructors.

CMP Club & Competition Tracker | Upcoming Competitions and Events

These are low cost and well worth the effort. I know GSM stands for Garand, Springfield & Military, but fundamentals are fundamentals.

I put on these clinics two or three times a year, I don't charge for the clinics plus I don't restrict them to vintage military rifles. Check with the people putting on the above clinic and tell them what you want and they will work with you.

 

[gstaylorg]

Because of the limited time you have between now and the challenge, you may not be able to attend a clinic as suggested by Kraig above. It's a great suggestion, but if you can't fit it in time-wise, there are a couple things you can do on your own to try and improve your precision in the next 30 days. First, I would recommend trying something other than American Eagle. It's ok, but may not be sub-MOA ammunition in your rifle; you can probably do much better. For 300 yd, I would try to get my hands on some Federal Gold Medal Match 168 gr ammunition at a bare minimum (unless you have handloads). Alternatively, you won't find a better commercial ammunition than Applied Ballistics 175 gr Tactical load, if you can get some in that time frame (Products). Alternatively, their 155.5 gr Fullbore load might be worth thinking about. Yes, I know they're extremely expensive relative to other commercial ammunition. But how much is beating your friend worth?

Second, work on your setup. I would suggest making sure your bipod is set low enough that your fist will be the appropriate sized rear support. You can't change the size of your fist all that much, so it's important to get the parameters that are adjustable set up as stable and comfortable as you can for how you will actually be shooting. You're going to want to have your right hand on the grip/trigger while your left crosses underneath and behind so that your fist is under the buttstock. You can flex it a little bit to adjust your crosshair, but there is a limit to how much, and it can also be very fatiguing to your hand after a while. That is why you need to have the bipod adjusted to the best height for your fist as the rear support.

Third, once you have your setup as stable and comfortable as you can get it, work on your breathing and trigger control. Pull the stock solidly into your shoulder, and apply consistent loading to the bipod. If your buttstock is loose or floppy against your shoulder, your groups are going to suffer. Make a conscious effort not to jerk the trigger. Consistency is really the key, so be as consistent shot to shot as you can. Make sure you're not moving your head slightly side-to-side or up/down to prevent parallax issues. The easiest way to do this is to let the sight picture in the scope tell you if your not centered (move your head on purpose if you're not sure what I mean). Above all, there is no reason to be super-tense or try to muscle the rifle; everything can be done in a firm but relaxed way.

If you get some good match ammo and work on your fundamentals, you ought to be able shrink the size of your groups quite a bit. As long as you do the best you can, the rest will hopefully work itself out. Good luck.

 

[Navybowhunter]

Thanks Gstaylorg!

I have ordered the Federal Gold Medal Match ammo, almost $50 per box...., but I believe worth it.

I'll practice with that ammo, more than likely the last range visit before the shoot. It is pricey!

Thanks for the advice on the bipod, and using my fist as a rear support. That is an awesome idea. Will try that next visit.

R/
Chris

 

[No1]

Some good advise above.
Another fundamental thing to remember is to always do your daily routines the same before you shoot. If you consume coffee, then drink it. If you smoke, then smoke. ETC. Your body functions normally like that and if you leave it out your body is not functioning properly because it is trying to adjust.
My son is on his school shooting team. The other day before a match, him and his shooting buddy were at the house and his buddy drank some of my wife's sweet tea. He is not use to having caffiene in his body and he shot terrible becasue he was all jittery. He is the #1 or 2 shooter on the team. I'm pretty sure I've told those boys this before but I guess I'll keep telling them.

Are you restricted to the bench or can you shoot prone?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

Properly point the rifle with consistent sight alignment and pull the trigger without moving the rifle, utilizing smooth trigger control. That's it. Everything else important to good shooting supports those two concepts. Thing is, you are not going to grasp the "everything else" from any posting on this thread, no matter the sincere effort, since marksmanship development on demand requires hands-on instruction from a highly qualified coach to expedite comprehension of instruction. There is no substitute; and, your need to know how to do it now to accommodate your "challenge" is not possible. Even with knowledge, without having yet developed picture and motor memory to have shot to shot consistency, which is essential for the best results, your shooting will still be below par of the average marksman.

Earlier, you got great advice from kraigWY. You should heed his advice. Kraig knows everything there is to know about good shooting, including what you need to do to get off to a good start. Getting off to a good start from this thread's hodgepodge of stitched perspectives, some of which are as unknowledgeable of what's important to good shooting as they are poorly presented, will not promote progress, but instead will thwart it.

Sign up for a CMP Clinic, or any other basic marksmanship course using a proven curriculum taught by credentialed instructors, that's to say, take a course taught by instructors who actually can show you how to do it.

 

[Graham]

Start by not using American Eagle ammo.

Then, with a large semi-auto like that, although sight alignment and trigger control are necessary to first properly switch-on the machine, big problems in group-management arise if you don't properly handle the recoils. If you want go back to the basics of sight alignment and trigger control, get a single-shot device like a 'Bob Sled' and shoot groups without the added problem of the bolt slamming forward. That will give you some perceived consistency shot-to-shot with the rifle and allow you to work up to shooting with the rifle loading itself and you holding the trigger back with a delayed reset.

 

[kraigWY]

Somehow I thing we by passing the main issue here. Good shooting is not like "cramming for a math test". We can (or did in our younger years) stayed up late at night cramming for tomorrow's math test and maybe pull it off.

Don't work that way in shooting sports, first you have to get the basics down and then practice and more practice. We can get the basics, or learn what we are suppose to do under a good coach. Normally from some sort of shooting school. I like the CMP GSM Clinics because of the low cost. (hate to see shooting sports become a rich man's game. Not saying they aren't any good, to the contrary. To become a GSM MI you have to demonstrate to the CMP your back ground in coaching and shooting. But it doesn't cost that much to attend.

I believe a better venue is the Small Arms Firing Schools conducted by the CMP at major matches, (Perry, Eastern & Western Games, etc) but they aren't as easy or spread out across the country in various CMP affiliated Clubs.

But it doesn't stop there, one must take what they've learned and apply it in practice, both live and dry firing until as SS indicated, one develops the Muscle Memory where one automatically applies the fundamentals of marksmanship.

I don't see this can be done in 3 months. I've been at it (competition shooting) for 35 plus years and I'm not at the point I would like to be.

I'm talking the software aspect of shooting, not the hardware. Hardware being the equipment, software being the using that equipment. I don't see the need of high price expensive multi thousand dollar hardware if the software can't take advantage of it. Or, if you have 3 MOA hardware, use it until the Software matches, or you can shoot 3 MOA in any and all conditions.

If you can't consistently shoot 3 MOA, why spend the time and effort for 1/4 MOA hardware. Wouldn't the time and funds be better spent working on the software????

 

[Graham]

Kraig, I agree.

But I think that good quality - these days also meaning expensive - equipment helps new shooters by rewarding good technique and by printing the mistakes where the mistakes ought to be.

 

[gstaylorg]

Guys,
He just wants to do the best he can in a friendly shoot-off in less than a month. No one in their right mind is going to think they can become an expert marksman through a few range trips in that short amount of time. Your suggestions on how to become a better marksman are absolutely dead on, but they're not feasible in the short term. On the other hand, he can do a few simple things in that short time to get started on his fundamentals so he can do the best he can in the challenge. The rest he can work on over time.

 

[Navybowhunter]

Thanks all! Gstaylorg, awesome!

Well..., went again this morning. I had some hornady Z-Max, expensive zombie crap. BUT.....
Shot that (168 gr), and had a sub MOA group at 100. They flew a good 2 inches higher than the American Eagle 150 gr's, but....all about the groups.

I have 2 boxes of the Federal Gold Match on the way. I am confident now, American Eagle is definitely not "marksman" ammo. Great for trigger practice, but I am getting consistent flyers, in 3 shot groups.

This can be done, and I believe I have already gotten better. Still need to work on recoil management. Practice...., but was very very happy with my less than a 25 cent piece group with the Hornady's. I did that twice by the way, only had 6 shots left.

Have plenty of American Eagle to practice with.

Appreciate all the advice!

 

[Navybowhunter]

Ohhhh....Graham,

Bobsled?

What I can do with the POF is, turn the gas block off...and in essence make it a single shot rifle. Is that what you are referring to?
That just may be an awesome idea for me.

R/
Chris

 

[Navybowhunter]

No1,

I appreciate the "routine comment". I do smoke, and drink coffee. Felt pretty good body wise this morning after church, and did smoke, and really take my time between shots.

Prone, would be awesome, but the challenge is from the bench, sitting.

 

[Navybowhunter]

OH for all...

I did beat my friend this morning, we were practicing together. I watched him shoot, and his barrel "hopped" after each shot with that FNAR. I did not ask him if mine was doing the same, probably should have, as it would likely reveal a weakness I need to improve upon.

 

[kraigWY]

Guys,
He just wants to do the best he can in a friendly shoot-off in less than a month. No one in their right mind is going to think they can become an expert marksman through a few range trips in that short amount of time

I agree with that, however, as mention a good course as the CMP Clinic will help more then reading the internet. In my first post to this topic I gave a link to a CMP GSM Clinic in his state on the 26th of this month. That's well with in the 3 months time period.

 

[Navybowhunter]

KraigWY,

Going to look into the CMP clinic for sure.
One of my best friends is a retired Marine Colonel, and he owns several CMP weapons. Keeps trying to talk me into buying one. One of these days I will.

Appreciate the advice, and never would have known there was a clinic in my area.

R/
Chris

 

[Navybowhunter]

KraigWY,

Have a phone call into the match director, it is actually on the 27th. I'll ask if I can use my POF-308. If in a pinch, my buddy with the CMP type rifles, will loan me one of his.

R/
Chris

 

[Navybowhunter]

So......What do ya'll think?

OK, I loaded 7 different handloads, with Winchester brass, Fed 210 primers, and Sierra 168 gr HPBT's. Had 3 sub-MOA groups at 100 yards. This was my best group.

Was from the lead sled, and my first time using the Giesselle trigger I installed. The rifle is obviously capable. Now to work on the shooter.

The software I used for this was the "On Target Precision Calculator". Anyone use that also?

That trigger is awesome, the gun is awesome.

Next two weeks will be me practicing at 100 yards (as far as I can shoot here) for the 300 yard challenge on 10 May.

Appreciate all the advice. Although in the sitting position from the lead sled, I am sure I could have done just as well prone with the bipod also. But, that remains to be seen. I will say, I am stoked with this group.

Thoughts? Does anyone disagree with the measurements?

OH, One more.....I disabled the gas system from the weapon also. POF's allow you to do that, and did not use a magazine. Hand inserted each round, waiting 1 minute between shots.

I did shoot the Fed Gold Medal Match factory loads, do not even want to post that group. Now.....it was the first volley of 3 I shot, but....., well...hell, I'll post a pic of that group here shortly. I really learned one lesson.....NOTHING beats a quality handload! LOL

I'm pissed I spent the $100 for two boxes of that stuff..., BUT.....I'll burn it at the range practicing for sure, and use the fire formed brass for reloads.


R/
Chris

 

[Navybowhunter]

Well, I did it! Attached is a pic of the "qualifying" target. I was so happy after this 3 shot group at 300 yards, that I shot a 3" group after this one. The 3" group was still enough to win.

My buddy only got two shots on paper for the challenge.

This was done down at the C2 Shooting Center in VA beach VA, 300 yards, 3 shot group. POF-308 20", Harris Bipod, from the bench. Gieselle SD-E trigger, Leupold MARK AR 6x18 40MM scope.

I really appreciate all the advice, and also the training videos in here. PROOF that a NOOB like myself CAN do it!

Best group of my life, furthest shot to date. 300 yards, .438 MOA.

H4895 42.2 grains, Sierra Match King 168Gr HPBT, Fed 210 primers, light "taper crimp" on loads.

STOKED! Now I wanna try 500 yards!

R/
Chris

 

[Bushmaster11]

The 3" group was still enough to win.

Congrats, keep at it now

 

[relentless1]

I have been tought to cup the stock butt firmly into my shoulder right between callorbone and shoulder muscle...not against your muscle, just into the gap. While being totally relaxed in shooting arm and hand. You must feel very relaxed and compfortably steady. Then when yo are ready for the shot, breath 2 times deeply into your diaphram to relax...you will see your x hairs move, but they will return to your point of aim. Takeing up trigger slack, take the third breath, let about half out as your x hairs meet your desired point of aim again, pause your breath, sqeeze the remaing trigger pull smoothly until you remain like that a couple of seconds after shot is fired. Always keep your eye remaining on your sights. Then you release remaing air in your diaphram and check out your shot!
I am practing as as beginner to the art, so I am just passing this info to you...a veteran shooter is training me to shoot long distance. I believe he knows what he is talking about, I have seen great results in myself from doing what I am told.

 

[Seeds]

Relentless1, with due respect to your coach, you should do yourself a huge favor and get Frank's (Lowlight) Day One video. One thing he says, for example, is the breathing technique you describe is out of date. Study up on the 'respiratory pause', otherwise you're shooting with two half inflated balloons in your chest, rather than a collapsed bone structure that assists good position.