LMT MWS LM8 20" Stainless: first range trip "RANGE REPORT"

[bm11]

This is a continuation of this thread:

This is the first time this rifle has been fired, I bought it new, received it two days ago, loaded up some ammo and went to the range today.

Overall as a summary- I was a bit dissapointed. I read a lot of hype on these systems, and I thought the stainless barrel rifles were supposed to be hammers. Mine shot "OK," but not the consistent 3/4 MOA or better I was expecting, based on everything I had read. Hopefully with more load development, I can get this thing shooting to where I can be happy with it, because I really WANT to love it.

For the most part, what I found, is that the rifle will shoot four out of five shots into a decent group. One out of the five opens it up significantly. I am hoping that I can figure out what is causing this. I don't have a crimp die yet, perhaps it is that?

OK, into the groups, all shot at 100 yards, all five shot groups.



The first group shot was the target below the paper, in the cardboard. It was 40.0 grains of Varget with a 178 Hornady HPBT seated 2.810. All rounds were seated 2.810 (max mag length.) The first round was outside of the picture (this scope was last zeroed for a TRG-42 with a 44.4 moa base, so I dialed up 13.3 mils and shot. No bore sight etc.) The target was also shot at by a buddy shooting his 16" chrome lined MWS with FGMM, so I can't tell you which rounds belong to what.

The next group, labeled "1" in the picture, is a 178 HPBT with 41.0 grains of Varget. It measure 1.987, but would be .846 if it wasn't for the gross deviation of one round (it was either the first or the last.)

Group three, labeled "2" is 42.0 grains of Varget with a 178 HPBT. Shots 1-4 measure .465" but the fifth round opens it up to 1.214". Frustrating!

Group four, labeled "3" is 43.0 grains of Varget with a 178 HPBT. The group measures 1.007" but would be .645" if it wasn't for shot 5 (high left.)

From this point on, I loaded up full mags of 20, in case the last round of the mag was the issue.

Group five, labeled "4" is 43.5 grains of Varget with a 178 HPBT. The group measures .949".

Group six, labeled "5" is 42.0 grains of Varget with a 178 AMAX. Round 1-4 measures .623" and again round 5 opens it up to 1.262" (the low round.)

Group seven, labeled "6" is 43.0 grains of Varget with a 178 AMAX. Measurement is 1.590", nothing spectacular here.

Group eight, labeled "7" is 43.5 grains of Varget with a 178 AMAX. Measurement is 1.210"

Group nine, not labeled, was 5 rounds of JUNK PRIVI ammo that my friend wanted to see how it shot out of my stainless barrel compared to his chrome barrel. He shot it, and 1.849" was the result. Nothing to be learned here, junk ammo produces junk results.

Group 10, labeled "8" was 44.0 grains of Varget with a 155 Lapua Scenar. Group measures 1.282", but again, four out of five and it measures 0.645"

Group 11, labeled "9" was 44.5 grains of Varget with a 155 Scenar. Group measures 1.531. The fifth shot is the one all the way to the left, but I didn't bother to measure 1-4 because it still sucks!

Group 12, labeled "10" was 45.0 grains of Varget with a 155 Scenar. Group measures 1.987". Ouch! Four out of five measure .846." I don't recall which round was the one that opened it up drastically, mostly because I am drinking as I type this and my memory is going to shit. Next step from here is going to the reloading bench!

Group 13, labeled "11" was 45.5 grains of Varget with a 155 Scenar. The total group size is 1.288". Rounds 1-4 measure .721" with number 5 opening it up to 1.288." 3 out of the first 4 measure .171." These results indicate a good possibility for this load, but it was too hot. Primers were flat and brass looked beat.

Group 14, labeled "12" was Federal Gold Medal Match, 168 grain. 1.227" was the measurement. Nothing special there. Number five again was the culprit.

Any suggestions on where to go from here? 42.0 grains shows a bit of promise with the two 178 grain bullets. Looks like I might skip the gym tomorrow in favor of shooting this rifle a bit more.

Or maybe I'll just sell it because I like bolt rifles better? I really wanted to love the semi auto precision rifle, but every time I try, I end up leaving the range thinking about how much more accurate I would have been if I had shot my AIAX.

If you have made it this far, thanks for reading!

-Bob

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

they are a diferent animal and i have watched many a good shooter shoot a accurate gasser not very well. not saying thats whats happening here but may just take some trigger time too man, alot goes into shooting them well.

 

[bm11]

they are a diferent animal and i have watched many a good shooter shoot a accurate gasser not very well. not saying thats whats happening here but may just take some trigger time too man, alot goes into shooting them well.

Entirely possible! I felt like I was shooting it well, but there is always the possibility that something was going on while the trigger was getting pressed at the subconcious level and I didn't catch it.

 

[mavrick10_2000]

Try loading 6 rounds or more in the magazine for a 5 shot group test. The bolt lockback on an empty mag can skew that last shot.

 

[bm11]

Try loading 6 rounds or more in the magazine for a 5 shot group test. The bolt lockback on an empty mag can skew that last shot.

Yeah I will bring a shit round as a #6 for the next test.

 

[997/2man]

they are a diferent animal and i have watched many a good shooter shoot a accurate gasser not very well. not saying thats whats happening here but may just take some trigger time too man, alot goes into shooting them well.

You might also want to think about a Geissele Trigger or a set of JP springs. Don't beat yourself up, a lot goes on in a gas rifle from the time the trigger breaks until the bullet leaves the muzzle (Bolt rifles can have very fast lock times).


You are still working on loads, it is a new rifle, your groups will get better. Honestly, if I get a load combo that gives me < 1" groups consistently, I'm as happy as a puppy with two peters.

 

[bm11]

Gun has a Geissele SSA-E in it, so we are solid there. With more load development I am hoping to get to 3/4 consistently, but I have to get to 1" first.

You might also want to think about a Geissele Trigger or a set of JP springs. Don't beat yourself up, a lot goes on in a gas rifle from the time the trigger breaks until the bullet leaves the muzzle (Bolt rifles can have very fast lock times).


You are still working on loads, it is a new rifle, your groups will get better. Honestly, if I get a load combo that gives me < 1" groups consistently, I'm as happy as a puppy with two peters.

 

[elfster1234]

I'm going to say a few things so don't blow up on me. Just giving some advice.

Last round fliers suck ass do they not!! LOL. It is you and not the rifle. Don't let this get you down. You're not the first person to confront this issue with big caliber semi-auto rigs. There is a definite technique to "driving" a big caliber gasser.

Don't expect to get the accuracy of a bolt action. Don't expect to get .5moa all day long like you would with a bolt action. Just be happy with sub-moa. I think my 30round, 6groups, 5shots each thread really proved a point with this in terms of shooting semi-auto rigs. Not saying it can't be done shooting .5moa all day long with a semi-auto rig, but it is really really f#$king hard. Maybe checking out this thread will give you an idea of what to expect from .308 semi-auto rigs. Even those with gaps and obr's are fighting the same issues you're dealing with: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...0yard-semi-auto-6groups-30round-shootout.html

Running a semi-auto gasser and shooting a bolt action is two different things. Try doing a trigger re-set on your next trip to the range (see video below). Making sure you don't move your head off scope, recoil impulse, and trigger control is uber important when driving a semi-auto rig. You're not the first person here to confront the "1 out of 5" shot group is way off phenomenon. Shooting a .308 semi-auto, even vs a .223 semi-auto, is not the same as shooting a bolt action. Any mistakes you make during the shot will be pronounced shooting a semi-auto .308 rifle. It is not the rifle, it is you. I can't express in words how many threads I've read about bolt guys shooting semi-auto rigs with the same issue. Trust me on this and don't let this get you down. You just need more practice shooting a big caliber semi-auto. Just like me when I first shot a pistol. I was always shooting low and to the left and I was sure it was the pistol and not me..... well, after much practice, it was me and not the pistol due to uber bad trigger control and uber bad pistol grip control.

I've said this time and time again, and I can't explain why, but for some reason, groups will get smaller / better after about 300 to 500 rounds. Call it a phenomenon or what, but it has been the same scenario with all of my semi-auto rigs and I've almost come to expect it now. Out of 6 precision semi-auto rigs Ive owned, the first shots have always been just "OK". My rock river EOP & LMT MWS was the very same way. My first shots right after purchase were just "OK", and now after about 600rounds down the tube it is stupid accurate. Even more accurate than my LMT. Could be a combo of some barrel break in and me getting better with that rifle's recoil impulses. Maybe the internal working parts like the BCG getting broke in? Not sure, but this has been the same with every single semi-auto rig ive owned. I think I even forewarned you about this phenomenon as I've been thru this time and time again.

Next, really give 168 grain bullets a try. I never had good luck with anything over 170grn in my LMT. 168grn has always been the ticket.

Finally, don't give up and don't sell the rifle. It is an AWESOME semi auto rig. Give it some time and load development. Practice practice with recoil impulse and trigger control. Just give it some time and you will be shooting sub-moa with that once in a blue moon 3/8moa bug hole group in no time. Trust me on this, I've shot more than my fair share of bug hole groups with a semi-auto gasser to know. There is a definite technique to "driving a gasser".

Shooting a Semi Auto Lesson Teaser - YouTube

 

[BCP]

Or maybe I'll just sell it because I like bolt rifles better? I really wanted to love the semi auto precision rifle, but every time I try, I end up leaving the range thinking about how much more accurate I would have been if I had shot my AIAX.

If you have made it this far, thanks for reading!

-Bob

Last round flier from the mag is pretty common in a gas gun (it's due to technique).

I bet for the 178s your low node is around 42 and 43.5 looks to be closing up nicely so maybe 43.8 or 44. 44 varget with the 155s looks decent too.

What kind of brass and primers are you using?

 

[jonthomps]

Totally agree with elfster. Get used to the rifle system first. I've also found that 155's and 168's work best - I can't get mine to shoot the 175's under 1 - 1.5 moa if I pay it! The trigger swap (for a Geissele) and spring swap might be worth considering too. Other than that, practice and education is the name of your game for the next couple of months. Have faith, you'll get there.

 

[elfster1234]

BTW, just another note....... as you can obviously shoot a heck of a lot faster with a semi-auto in comparison to bolt...... heat build up in your barrel is a real bitch!! I noticed big time with the whole 30round, 6groups, 5shot shoot out thread if you shot really fast and didn't take a break between groups, then your groups would go all to hell.

I think starting out with a big caliber semi-auto rig is having the goal to reach 1"moa, and anything under sub-moa is a real bonus until you get proper technique and ammo development squared away. To think you'll get sub-moa on every single group, especially with a new rifle without proper load development is not realistic. Shooting .308 and above cal semi-autos is a whole different beast.

Even to this day, I have yet to get sub-moa on 6total groups @ 5shots each IN A ROW. That is saying a LOT with the amount of rounds I've put down range. If you can do this, then you're a better shot than me.

 

[elfster1234]

also make sure you're using a sand bag in the back, bipod in the front. Just making sure.

 

[jbell]

You said you are somewhere just under mag length for your seating depth. What is the chamber throated at compaired to where you are seated? You may also find some accuracy with a taylored load of SMK (other than the FGMM) as they jump so well if this thing is throated long. Just a thought...

 

[bm11]

Federal Gold Medal Match brass. Primers are Federal 210m. Running low though so I may have to swap to CCI primers.

Last round flier from the mag is pretty common in a gas gun (it's due to technique).

I bet for the 178s your low node is around 42 and 43.5 looks to be closing up nicely so maybe 43.8 or 44. 44 varget with the 155s looks decent too.

What kind of brass and primers are you using?

 

[81sfo]

My lmt shoots like a bolt gun only when I use lapua or Blackhills once fired brass. If I use my fgmm brass It opens up to 1"-1.5" at 100 yds. I noticed the neck tension on fgmm once fired brass is inconsistent .. Mine will shoot 175,168 smks and 168 Amax sub moa if I use good brass and take my time .

 

[bm11]

My lmt shoots like a bolt gun only when I use lapua or Blackhills once fired brass. If I use my fgmm brass It opens up to 1"-1.5" at 100 yds. I noticed the neck tension on fgmm once fired brass is inconsistent .. Mine will shoot 175,168 smks and 168 Amax sub moa if I use good brass and take my time .

Thanks Jose! I hate to sacrifice Lapua brass to get beaten to hell by a semi, but if its what I have to do, I'll do it.

 

[bm11]

Range trip #2 Update 4/15/13

I cleaned the barrel last night, then removed it and reinstalled it. THIS BARREL DOES NOT LIKE TO BE SHOT CLEAN!

I skipped the gym this morning to go back to the range and try loads that showed promise. Also- I focused on trigger press and follow through. My assessment is that my shooting was good and that the issue was the rifle or load. No way to validate this statement however.

Target board:

Results summary:

Group 1: 42.0g Varget, 178 HPBT, 2.438"
Group 2: 43.8g Varget, 178 HPBT, 2.599"
Group 3: 42.0g Varget, 178 AMAX, 2.017"
Group 4: 43.8g Varget, 178 AMAX, 1.233"
Group 5: 42.0g Varget, 178 HPBT, 2.244"
Group 6: 43.8g Varget, 178 HPBT, 1.218"
Group 7: 42.0g Varget, 178 AMAX, 1.811"
Group 8: 43.8g Varget, 178 AMAX, 1.135"

Input? Try some factory match ammo next? I'm about ready to scrap this rifle and either pay the huge markup on Gunbroker for an OBR or order a GAP-10 and wait.

 

[trident1982]

Life's too short not to love your rifles.....sounds like you should sell it. List it in the EE, and see how long it last

 

[GhostFace]

Play around with holding the grip of the rifle. I really love the Sierra SPR grip as it places my finger correctly on the trigger. I have since swapped it out for the MIAD because I needed the cargo space to carry allen wrenches. When I forget to properly hold he grip at the correct angle my groups open quite a bit. I also find that loading the bipod and a good frim grip of the buttstock in the shoulder are equally important. Keep shooting it and don't give up, it will all "click". My LW barrel didn't require any break in, just me...

You might also try a different powder too, my rifle shot patterns with RL-15 and only tolerated Varget. It loves 4895 and 4064....

 

[bm11]

Yeah I have a bit of H4895 I could try.

 

[81sfo]

I only used it as a an accuracy test and yes it's a waste of brass ,I just wanted to see the diffrence in accuracy with the brass. If shooting steel I just use the fgmm crap brass Bob.

 

[elfster1234]

is your barrel the 1: 11.25 twist or 1:10 like mine?

Yeah I have a bit of H4895 I could try.

 

[bm11]

is your barrel the 1: 11.25 twist or 1:10 like mine?

11.25, I think all the stainless barrels are 11.25.

Edit to add- if you are asking because of the bullet weight, 11.25 is plenty to stabilize a 178. I have shot .25 inch groups out of my 12 twist bolt guns with 175's and 178's.

 

[elfster1234]

if you give it another try and happen to have another scope & mount, then I would even try another scope so you can rule out that equation. I would say something is really fishy... crazy that both you and your friend are having damn near the same problems with damn near the same rifle brand. really strange.

 

[elfster1234]

that is strange.... you would think that twist rate would be damn near perfect ofr 178's. hmmm

I wish I could help you out more bother than what ive already posted.

11.25, I think all the stainless barrels are 11.25.

Edit to add- if you are asking because of the bullet weight, 11.25 is plenty to stabilize a 178. I have shot .25 inch groups out of my 12 twist bolt guns with 175's and 178's.

 

[elfster1234]

what I find really fishy on this 2nd run is your general "central" point of impact of your groups is all over the place... you sure you're scope isn't all screwed up? im sure you did this, but side focus is set for 100yards im sure. the central point of all of your groups is all over the place (up, down, left, right of bulls)...... i just don't see how your rifle can be this bad... I also noticed your scope is mounted really far back from your typical AR set up.... hmm

Range trip #2 Update 4/15/13

I cleaned the barrel last night, then removed it and reinstalled it. THIS BARREL DOES NOT LIKE TO BE SHOT CLEAN!

I skipped the gym this morning to go back to the range and try loads that showed promise. Also- I focused on trigger press and follow through. My assessment is that my shooting was good and that the issue was the rifle or load. No way to validate this statement however.

Target board:

Results summary:

Group 1: 42.0g Varget, 178 HPBT, 2.438"
Group 2: 43.8g Varget, 178 HPBT, 2.599"
Group 3: 42.0g Varget, 178 AMAX, 2.017"
Group 4: 43.8g Varget, 178 AMAX, 1.233"
Group 5: 42.0g Varget, 178 HPBT, 2.244"
Group 6: 43.8g Varget, 178 HPBT, 1.218"
Group 7: 42.0g Varget, 178 AMAX, 1.811"
Group 8: 43.8g Varget, 178 AMAX, 1.135"

Input? Try some factory match ammo next? I'm about ready to scrap this rifle and either pay the huge markup on Gunbroker for an OBR or order a GAP-10 and wait.

 

[elfster1234]

not sure if this would make a diff or not, but I noticed your scope is damn near 3" past the charging handle. I could see maybe 1" past, but that bad boy is really far back... it is just really strange your groups are all over the place... it is one thing to have consistently bad groups due to the rifle, but you would think they would atleast be in the same central location.... you're groups are in different areas.... if you can, try another scope and move it up some so the rear of the scope is damn near flush with the charging handle... not sure if this will even do anything but it is worth a try

Well, I decided it was time to try out the whole "semi auto precision" thing again, and due to the overwhelming reviews of the MWS (combined with the fact that I was able to find one in stock,) I decided to give the LMT MWS a try.

Knowing how I am with "compromise," I did the smart thing (for me) and paid a bit extra to get the stainless 5r match barrel (this one is a 20",) as well as the new LM8 "slick side" model. The handguard is much slimmer and much more comfortable.

The dealer I bought it from had a Magpul ACS in stock, and swapped me for the Sopmod straight up. Good deal for him, because the Sopmod is more expensive, and good deal for me, because the Sopmod SUCKS for prone shooting and this saved me a step. I ended up with a bruise after shooting a buddies MWS prone, from the latch hitting my index finger.

I had a Geissele SSA-E waiting for th rifle, so I installed it last night. I was pleasantly surprised with the LMT trigger (it was decent,) BUT the Geissele does take it up to a new level.

Finally, I had a Schmidt 5-25 "just laying around," so I threw it in an OBR mount until I find a more suitable scope for this rifle (I'm thinking a Hensoldt 4-16FF would be the perfect scope for this setup.)

I haven't shot it yet, but I'm going to go out tomorrow and see what its capable of. Assuming it proves to be a "keeper," the barrel is getting sent to George at GAP to have a few inches hacked off and the muzzle rethreaded 18x1.5 for my SAS Ti Arbiter.

Range report to follow tomorrow, for now, I'll leave you with a couple pics!

notice on mine my rear objective is damn near flush with the charging handle... I would totally re-mount the scope if not try another scope just to make sure (that's if you have an extra one just laying around again, LOL)....

 

[elfster1234]

you can notice in the above pic of my rifle that my scope turrets are damn near center above the ejection port area, with the rear objective damn near flush with the charging handle.... just trying to rule out variables.

 

[bm11]

Elf,

That picture was taken about 10 minutes after I got home with the rifle- I didn't set eye relief until I got to the range. I'll get an updated pic when I get home if it would make you feel better.

The scope isn't dicked up. I had it on a rifle I took to Gunsite for an extreme long range class. We tested mechanical tracking and it was one of two scopes there that were literally perfect. As for the POI shifting- I adjusted. Keep in mind that there are two different bullets and two different charge weights on the board- four different loads. I took the barrel off and found that it had shifted. As it "settled in," I adjusted it back.

The scope isn't fucked. I checked and it also hasn't shifted in the mount. I'll tighten down the levers to make sure, but I haven't had a larue mount with an issue yet.

 

[BCP]

Hopefully that scope mounted that far back is just for pics I always put mine where the rear objective is flush or a little ahead of the end of the receiver.

With FC or LC brass, varget and 175s I usually use either 43 or 41.5 grains and 2.8COAL (no longer). I'd be surprised if that didn't shoot at least around an inch in your rifle. H4895 I'd use 41.5 or 42.5.

Those last groups make me think something is loose or faulty especially since your first set of groups didn't look bad, plenty of sub moa ones not counting the goofy last round fliers.

 

[elfster1234]

ok, nm... just trying to help ya out

Elf,

That picture was taken about 10 minutes after I got home with the rifle- I didn't set eye relief until I got to the range. I'll get an updated pic when I get home if it would make you feel better.

The scope isn't dicked up. I had it on a rifle I took to Gunsite for an extreme long range class. We tested mechanical tracking and it was one of two scopes there that were literally perfect. As for the POI shifting- I adjusted. Keep in mind that there are two different bullets and two different charge weights on the board- four different loads. I took the barrel off and found that it had shifted. As it "settled in," I adjusted it back.

The scope isn't fucked. I checked and it also hasn't shifted in the mount. I'll tighten down the levers to make sure, but I haven't had a larue mount with an issue yet.

 

[bm11]

ok, nm... just trying to help ya out

I appreciate it. Sometimes the internet makes it tough to interpret- it sounded like I was getting pissy, it wasn't my intention at all. I was merely trying to clarify that I am 99% confident it isn't the scope.

BUT, its easy enough to toss on another scope. I have a Schmidt and Bender 3-20 in a 1.46" tall 20 moa Spuhr, I can easily swap it off my AIAX (which averaged .55" for ten five-round groups last range session, that scope is certainly good to go,) and at the same time I can throw the 5-25 on the AX and confirm that it is good.

It's PROBABLY not the scope, but it is a good idea to rule it out, so I will!

 

[Sixfivesavage]

I still say it should shoot with @ 42 grains of H4895 and 168g match kings loaded out to mag length. Winchester brass, CCI primers. Works very very well in my buddies. It's actually my M1A load.

The only other thing I can think of might be not having a good consistent cheek weld with that set up. Tough to tell from pictures, but it looks like it may be kinda high to get settled behind.

 

[jbell]

A different powder could be the ticket, you may also want to try 4064. The pressure curve is VERY important in a gas gun... I know you know that, I just wanted to feel like I am contributing

 

[bm11]

This is where my scope is mounted, Elf.

 

[elfster1234]

that's not too bad. looks good. one thing is for damn sure, it's one big ass scope! nice set up.... now we just need to figure out what the heck is going on.... wish I could give some better advice to get you rolling.... kinda sucks to see other SH members not having fun with a new rifle purchase. Trust me, I've been in your shoes before when things don't meet your expectations.

That's what she said! JK

This is where my scope is mounted, Elf.

 

[sgj2025]

Groups 2,3,4 and 5 from the first day showed promise. All over the place on the second day. Might have been a little frustration setting in (just a thought). Dont give up on it yet.

 

[bm11]

that's not too bad. looks good. one thing is for damn sure, it's one big ass scope! nice set up.... now we just need to figure out what the heck is going on.... wish I could give some better advice to get you rolling.... kinda sucks to see other SH members not having fun with a new rifle purchase. Trust me, I've been in your shoes before when things don't meet your expectations.

That's what she said! JK

I do appreciate all the input everyone is giving me. Thinking critically, here is the next logical step-

I have been firing strictly my handloads. As a handloader, like most, that's about all I shoot. However, I do have a small supply of "test ammo" I keep around for situations like this. I have some Gold Medal 168, and some Hornady TAP 168 AMAX. Next range session, I will shoot a box of each, and see what the rifle is capable of. If these ammo's average MOA or better, I know that the rifle is capable and with the right handloads I should be able to tighten it up to 3/4 or better. If the factory match ammo's both shoot 1.5" on average, I'll try again with m118lr when it comes in. If THAT doesn't improve, I'll ship the rifle to LMT and hope they give me a new barrel.

 

[997/2man]

Hey man, I don't think it's the scope, maybe you did, I don't know, try some factory ammo (FGMM, Black Hills, AE, etc) with 150s,168s,177s. Don't clean a thing. If every thing is tight (mount/rings, barrel bolts) maybe the factory ammo will give you a starting place with regards to preferred bullet weight, you know what I mean. Have a buddy who can shoot well try a couple of groups too.

It doesn't sound like it's your 1st rodeo, I'd be scratching my head also.

My LMT was just under an 1', even with factory ammo (FGMM), and it was a 16" CL.

Keep us posted.

 

[elfster1234]

this story has absolutely nothing to do with you, but my friend shooting next to me 2 weeks ago was getting unreal bad groups with his bolt action about 1/2 way thru our shooting session.... like 6moa to 7moa @ 300yards... we were both wondering what the hell is wrong with you!! you were just shooting about 1 to 2moa @ 300yards about 60rounds ago (factory savage hunting rifle BTW)??? he honestly thought his shooting technique went all to shit. Hell, some shots didn't even hit the f@cking target while I watched him shoot thru my spotting scope.... I picked up his rifle and his friggen harris bipod was so damn loose no wonder he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn... we both laughed about it after he wasted $40 in ammo while I got some blue lock tite on his harris bipod threads. LOL. Something so stupid made such a huge difference and he was back on his 1 to 2 moa track. I know this is something you wouldn't do, but it is a funny story we ran into last week.

I do appreciate all the input everyone is giving me. Thinking critically, here is the next logical step-

I have been firing strictly my handloads. As a handloader, like most, that's about all I shoot. However, I do have a small supply of "test ammo" I keep around for situations like this. I have some Gold Medal 168, and some Hornady TAP 168 AMAX. Next range session, I will shoot a box of each, and see what the rifle is capable of. If these ammo's average MOA or better, I know that the rifle is capable and with the right handloads I should be able to tighten it up to 3/4 or better. If the factory match ammo's both shoot 1.5" on average, I'll try again with m118lr when it comes in. If THAT doesn't improve, I'll ship the rifle to LMT and hope they give me a new barrel.

 

[bm11]

Hey man, I don't think it's the scope, maybe you did, I don't know, try some factory ammo (FGMM, Black Hills, AE, etc) with 150s,168s,177s. Don't clean a thing. If every thing is tight (mount/rings, barrel bolts) maybe the factory ammo will give you a starting place with regards to preferred bullet weight, you know what I mean. Have a buddy who can shoot well try a couple of groups too.

It doesn't sound like it's your 1st rodeo, I'd be scratching my head also.

My LMT was just under an 1', even with factory ammo (FGMM), and it was a 16" CL.

Keep us posted.

Yep, done deal. Factory ammo next, enough rounds to establish a baseline.

 

[RG in Idaho]

Not sure what you've tried so far but...

I found that seriously pre-loading the bi-pod really makes a difference with my LMT. It will Jekyll and Hyde on me if I let the bi-pod rest on a concrete bench and finesse it like a bolt gun. I have a 16"CL and a 20"SS. They both react the same way.

I also make it habit to consciously "pin" the trigger on every shot. Thinking about it that way improves my follow through.

 

[elfster1234]

good advice 997/2man

Hey man, I don't think it's the scope, maybe you did, I don't know, try some factory ammo (FGMM, Black Hills, AE, etc) with 150s,168s,177s. Don't clean a thing. If every thing is tight (mount/rings, barrel bolts) maybe the factory ammo will give you a starting place with regards to preferred bullet weight, you know what I mean. Have a buddy who can shoot well try a couple of groups too.

It doesn't sound like it's your 1st rodeo, I'd be scratching my head also.

My LMT was just under an 1', even with factory ammo (FGMM), and it was a 16" CL.

Keep us posted.

 

[elfster1234]

another good point RG
Loading the Bipod - YouTube

Not sure what you've tried so far but...

I found that seriously pre-loading the bi-pod really makes a difference with my LMT. It will Jekyll and Hyde on me if I let the bi-pod rest on a concrete bench and finesse it like a bolt gun. I have a 16"CL and a 20"SS. They both react the same way.

I also make it habit to consciously "pin" the trigger on every shot. Thinking about it that way improves my follow through.

 

[elfster1234]

just for shits and giggles... try not using the bipod for 1 5shot group... sandbag in front and back.... just for shits and giggles. see what happens. cant hurt.

 

[Name Enough]

Just my two cents - I discount almost everything until a gas gun has about 200 rounds down the pipe and starts to settle in and like its self.
I bought a LWRC and was very disappointed until I got to about 80 rounds and it started to settle down. I was thinking Oh darn - I just paid a lot of money for a gun that won't shoot.
Secondly I have found that it is better not to try to shoot bolt and gas rifles in the same session. Both seem to suffer. If I am going to shoot bolt rifles I leave the gas guns at home. I used to mix them up as the heavy magnum rifles with light barrels need to cool off for cold barrel dope and they are not so much fun after about 40 rounds.

 

[elfster1234]

there is soooooo much truth to this when it comes to semi-auto rigs in my past experience.

just an fyi, I have always found it takes a few rounds down the tube for the groups to settle down. looking good my friend.

not sure for everyone else, but with the 6 different precision AR's I have owned (all different makes and models),,,, it seems to me that groups really start to shine at about 500rounds plus and only get better after that..... Don't be let down if you're not getting crazy groups right out of the gate with a new factory barrel. Not sure if you want to call it a phenomenon or what, but I honestly think that groups get better and smaller the more you shoot a new rifle. My LMT was kind of the same way and especially until I found the ammo she likes to eat. AMAX all the way for my LMT. I can usually get 168amax 100count box for about $28 dolllars at my local dealer. You might get lucky right out of the gate, but from my past experience it is usually around 400 to 500 rounds to see consistant sub-moa groups at 100yards. I know my new rock river EOP really started to shine at about 400rounds. I just took it to the range last week and it is driving .52moa ten shot groups at 300yards no problem and it wasn't doing that when I first got it. I've also found that load development plays a HUGE part in getting bug hole size groups also.

Just my two cents - I discount almost everything until a gas gun has about 200 rounds down the pipe and starts to settle in and like its self.
I bought a LWRC and was very disappointed until I got to about 80 rounds and it started to settle down. I was thinking Oh darn - I just paid a lot of money for a gun that won't shoot.
Secondly I have found that it is better not to try to shoot bolt and gas rifles in the same session. Both seem to suffer. If I am going to shoot bolt rifles I leave the gas guns at home. I used to mix them up as the heavy magnum rifles with light barrels need to cool off for cold barrel dope and they are not so much fun after about 40 rounds.

 

[sic65stang]

BM,

I think you just need to give it more time. I bought an expensive 308 gas gun also and was very unhappy with my purchase at first, but for whatever reason I kept at it. After about 300 rounds I had noticeable different accuracy. I struggled with the handloading process for my gas gun too. It just takes getting used to and really letting the rifle break in or settle down as others put it.

After my initial break in process I decided to only clean the BCG when I felt like it, and only cleaned the barrel when I saw accuracy drop off, because like yours, mine shot terrible initially after cleaning. I know it is hard to refrain from cleaning, but IMO it actually helped the rifle perform more consistently from range trip to range trip.

I would recommend that you pick a load that the rifle likes somewhat and shoot that for the first couple hundred rounds and then work on developing a load. Not only will you get more comfortable with the rifle and give you some more trigger time, but it will also give the rifle time to wear in a little bit. Also to be noted, my gas gun likes lighter loads. I started 2 grains below book max and found a load that was below book max that is very accurate and gets enough velocity for me.

Just a couple of my thoughts. Good luck

 

[problemchild]

A few things I noticed about mine.

It shoots XBR twice as good as Varget.
It shoots 155/168/175 equally well close in (1-300)
It HATES a clean barrel (groups open up to 1.5 inch from 1/2 inch)
It HATES barrel removal. (again groups opened up to 3+ inches from .5 inches) until I removed, cleaned barrel insertion area, re-oiled, and seated in vertical position (straight up) NOT horizontal!
Mine like follow through with trigger.
Mine likes same position everytime (slight shoulder pressure)
Mine likes hornady over federal projectiles but smk, shoot very good under hand loads.

For some reason with this new format I cannot post pictures I get an "error".

 

[Dacam]

I've had my 20" stainless steel, 1 in 11.25 twist for about 8 months. I swear it took damn near 300 rounds for the rifle to settle in before it could shoot sub moa.
My groups were 1.20" when I first got it, and after a few hundred rounds it now shoots around .700" with a best group of .560".
Not sure if its the copper is laying down a bearing surface in the barrel or the throat smoothed out but it shoots really awesome now compared to when I first
shot it.
Give it some time and get some rounds through it. Just keep in mind....its not a bolt gun.