LMT MWS chronicles continue: talked to Gene at LMT today

[bm11]

btw, where are the target pics??

Group 1 was the "zeroing" group, 20" to 16". Total size shitty at 1.958"
Group 2 was m118lr, tightened a bit at 1.591"
Group 3 was m118lr, tightened a bit more to 1.071"
Group 4 was mk316 mod 0, 1.075"
Group 5, 43.5g R15= 0.972"
Group 6, 40.0g H4895= 0.775"
Group 7, 40.0g H4895= 0.935" (4/5 would be closer to .5")
Group 8, r15= 1.875"
Group 9, r15, shot by steve, 1.865" he did call the flier, if you allow that type of thing it measures .744".
Group 10, h4895, 1.098" but .496" for 4/5

So, not all sub moa, but a real good run of them, and I'm feeling good about that 4895 load!

-Bob

 

[ggmanning]

Try some Varget. My 16" POF .308 loves loads in the 44-45gr range if memory serves. Took me a while to find what it liked and the rifle really woke up with Varget. I have a CQB MRP 5.56. It is very picky. Shoots good with 77 SMK's but not so hot with anything else I have run through it. Our LMT's are very different animals and but just sayin don't give up on it yet. For me barrel, trigger and optics are the main ingredients to gas gun accuracy so at worst having a barrel spun for it could alleviate your woes.

 

[77Bronc]

In the original post, the "if I do my part" sounds a lot like what I may have said in a posting either here or another forum. I'm on my second MWS, the first one like the rifle I currently own was great.

With my second rifle, the initial groups with certain ammo was not good, two inch groups was the norm. After I switched to FGMM in .308 168 grain the groups tightened up to about 1" to 1.25". Not until I stumbled across some 7.62 FGMM in 175 grain did the rifle start to shine.

Now I have been shooting for 40 years, I did not purchase the MWS as a one hole paper puncher, but I too purchased the rifle based on what I read on these forums and also on the excellent reliability I had with my MRP's

I never expected bolt action rifle performance out of the rifle, but I do happen to have one that will print great groups, with a certain ammo...and from what I can tell, with only this ammo. Put in Remington 150 grain and you better run for cover.

I have dealt with Gene in the past and he is a stand up guy, great to talk to, great to assist....heck I even wrote an review for LMT on my experiences with their products

If you are like me you will not be happy until you are completely satisfied...MWS, GAP or whatever, you need to decide

77

 

[ntm]

I never did get 175's to shoot well in my 20" ss barrel. Or fgmm either.
168 Amax are sub moa. 44 g of varget in lapua cases, 2.810 oal. Br2 primers.
110 vmax are way sub moa, just a ragged hole at 100. 47 gr of vv n135 in lapua cases, 2.710 oal. Br2 primers.
My 16" cl is okay averages 1 moa or slightly below, but all my ss barrels shoot much tighter.
I did have one 18" ss that had a chewed up throat from the factory that wouldn't shoot...warranty replacement.

 

[EricCartmann]

168gr SMK for tight groups at 100 yards for the win!

 

[Dirtyboy333]

I also had an 18" with a chewed up throat. Replaced as well. 168SMK's shoot great. I haven't been able to get 168 Nosler Custom Comps to shoot near as well as even though everything I read says they're the same as SMK. I'm looking forward to trying AMAX

 

[samnev]

I have 4 308 AR's an LMT MWS 16" CL barrel, Armalitie AR10A4 with a ss barrel, DPMS SASS and a SIG 716. I also own a Devine TX M1A National Match that I have owned since the early 70's. None of the AR's will shoot as well as the NM M1A. It is a honest .5-.75 moa rifle at 100 yards with 168 grain smk's. It has only been shot at matches over the years and probably has less than 1000 rounds thru it. I am experiencing exactly the same problems that BM 11 has with all 4 of the AR's 4 shots relatively decently under 1 moa and the consistent 1 shot flyer that opens the groups up to 1.25"-1.5". I consider myself a decent shot and with my TRG 22 and AIAW in 308 can shoot under 0.5" 5 shot groups most of the time sometimes better with the AIAW. I also have a number of AR15's (Noveske's, Rock River, POF and LMT CQB) that I shoot regularly that will shoot 0.5" shot groups most of the time with my custom hand loads. I have worked loads for the 308 gassers in 0.2 grain increments using Varget, H4895, 3031 and W748 with both 168 and 175 smk's and nothing seems to improve the groups. I have come to the conclusion that the AR 10 platform is just not going to produce the kind of results that many shooters have reported. Of the 4 308 gasser the DPMS SASS shoots the most consistently.
When I first got my LMT MWS it was shooting shotgun patterns. I called LMT and they told me "the dealer must have screwed with it as they shot 5 shot groups and the rifles do not leave the factory unless they were in spec". When I told them I was at the shop when the rifle arrived and I opened up the box their comment was could you please re-torque the barrel. If there was no change call back. I did as asked and that fixed the problem. At least it now shoots as previously described. I guess this one must have fallen thru the preverbal very wide crack. So much for their in house accuracy test at least on mine.
PS all the 308 gassers except the 716 have the Magpul PRS stock installed hoping it would help my shooting, no change afterwards.

 

[BCP]

I have come to the conclusion that the AR 10 platform is just not going to produce the kind of results that many shooters have reported. Of the 4 308 gasser the DPMS SASS shoots the most consistently.

My DPMS SASS was the most consistent too I think because of the weight. It was a heavy pig and with a brake easy to control off a bench. Mine shot some very small groups though, it wasn't uncommon to have 3 shots in the same hole and 5 shots well under an inch. The key I found was seating depth, all of my most accurate loads for it were 2.78" at least using 175smk and 178amax. Could never get 168s under an inch with a load that I liked though it was either a fart in the wind load like 40gr of varget or a hot as hell one like 46 varget.

PS my friend with an LMT had to re-torque the barrel as well when he got it it was grouping all over the place and it was because the nuts were finger tight. As soon as we tightened them it became an (almost) MOA rifle. Which is plenty for a battle rifle like that.

 

[bm11]

Copied from my post in the "6 groups of 5 shots" thread:

First in. Nothing impressive, but glad my MWS is hanging around moa at this point.

Shot about 5 minutes ago. MWS, 16" chrome barrel, Schmidt 5-25 (Gen2 XR.) Atlas bipod, tab rear bag.

Groups 1-3 the first round opened up otherwise good groups. I found the lever on my Atlas half off, odd being that it has a lock button and I hadn't taken it off for anything.

Groups 1-5 were Federal brass, 175 SMK, 2.810 COAL, 40.0g H4895, Fed 210m primers. Group 6 was the same load but a CCI BR2 primer. Ran out of federals. Turns out the load doesn't work so hot with CCI primers!

The rifle:

1.029"+1.052"+1.099"+1.067"+0.722"+1.727"= 6.696"/6=1.116" average
1.116/1.047=1.066 MOA. Damn, not quite sub moa yet!
Best= 0.722"

This was my last chance to shoot for a week and a half, so I posted up what I got. Overall, pleased as the rifle was shooting 1.5" not long ago. Hoping once I get my stainless barrel back from LMT to do more serious load development and tighten up the average a bit. And actually shoot the rifle further than 100y too. Hahah

-Bob

PS- calipers were zeroed on a .308 bullet, so the outside measurement is the true center to center measurement.

 

[sinister]

Bob, try off of bags (vice the Atlas).

With a 25X top end, if the Schmidt isn't helping you nail sub-MOA groups I'd call it about the best you're going to get with a chrome-lined barrel.

The Brits use a Radway 155 Match to get their MOA groups out of an L129A1.

I'm not sure but I think the Kiwis actually standardized the L129 (with a Leupold) before the Brits.

 

[ntm]

Only thing consistantly sub moa in my cl 16" is 155 scenars.
45 g of varget, lapua brass, 2.850 oal. Need a modded Pmag or a kac mag to run that oal.
Never had luck with 168 or 175 smk in the cl or ss. They could be made to shoot sub moa, but not nearly as the deep as the amax, or as consistent as the amax.

 

[bm11]

So far 155 Scenars have shot pretty shitty, in both barrels. But I don't have a mag that can handle the longer OAL, so that could certainly be part of it.

 

[svxwilson]

So far 155 Scenars have shot pretty shitty, in both barrels. But I don't have a mag that can handle the longer OAL, so that could certainly be part of it.

bm11 what did you end up doing? Did LMT make it right? I have a 20" SS 6.5cm MWS I am having similar issues with.

 

[The Gump]

I will be an honest LMT MWS owner.

My factory 16" .308 CL barrel shoots like crap (2 MOA). Ya, I was disappointed too.

I did have a Rock barrel chambered in .260 barrel spun up in a used factory barrel extension and gas block i bought off the hide. It shoots ~.6 @ 100 yards and can hit at distance. I've only got 100 rounds through it. I am happy.

I will have a new 16" .308 barrel spun up in my factory barrel extension/gas block one of these days.

If I were you I would eat the shit sandwich, forget about hand loads right now, and have a new barrel spun up. Then worry about hand loads.

 

[rck]

I have noticed a pattern in this thread and several others around the net. The CL barrels tend to prefer the 168 SMKs. This matches my experience.

I have been shooting the classic M1A/M14 NM load of 42 to 42.5 grains of IMR 4895 with a 168 SMK since the 80s. It has been very forgiving and reliably accurate across several rifles and barrels. It is what I had on hand when I bought my LMT and reliably gives me 0.75 to 1 MOA. I really can't ask for more and my dabbling with other loads has been minimal as a result. FGMM with 175s didn't light me up but on the other hand the ball I have around (GGG) shoots about 1.5 MOA.

In other words the rifle performs pretty much as specified and it breaks down nice and compactly.

Based on all of this if I was presented with an iffy LMT and the usual suspects of scope mounting, manufacturing glitch and barrel torque have been checked I would shoot it with FGMM with 168s off a ruck or sandbags, no bipod. If the rifle didn't shoot then, AND the trigger puller chosen to do the shooting is semi decent, then I would say you have a problem.

 

[elfster1234]

I have ran so many bullets down my LMT's barrel to know they really do love 168 bullets....especially hornady 168 amax and BTHP. The main bullets I use in my LMT are:

target = 168 amax or bthp

hunting or plinking under 300yards = 165 interlock with bt with a kiss of a crimp

also, you're not doing any of your rifles justice unless you're reloading.

I have noticed a pattern in this thread and several others around the net. The CL barrels tend to prefer the 168 SMKs. This matches my experience.

I have been shooting the classic M1A/M14 NM load of 42 to 42.5 grains of IMR 4895 with a 168 SMK since the 80s. It has been very forgiving and reliably accurate across several rifles and barrels. It is what I had on hand when I bought my LMT and reliably gives me 0.75 to 1 MOA. I really can't ask for more and my dabbling with other loads has been minimal as a result. FGMM with 175s didn't light me up but on the other hand the ball I have around (GGG) shoots about 1.5 MOA.

In other words the rifle performs pretty much as specified and it breaks down nice and compactly.

Based on all of this if I was presented with an iffy LMT and the usual suspects of scope mounting, manufacturing glitch and barrel torque have been checked I would shoot it with FGMM with 168s off a ruck or sandbags, no bipod. If the rifle didn't shoot then, AND the trigger puller chosen to do the shooting is semi decent, then I would say you have a problem.

 

[bm11]

bm11 what did you end up doing? Did LMT make it right? I have a 20" SS 6.5cm MWS I am having similar issues with.

Yep, they found it to be defective, and replaced it.

 

[elfster1234]

did you end up selling your KAC also? if so, what AR 7.62 are you rocking now? or nothing?

Yep, they found it to be defective, and replaced it.

 

[Scoby]

I have noticed a pattern in this thread and several others around the net.

In other words the rifle performs pretty much as specified and it breaks down nice and compactly.

Based on all of this if I was presented with an iffy LMT and the usual suspects of scope mounting, manufacturing glitch and barrel torque have been checked I would shoot it with FGMM with 168s off a ruck or sandbags, no bipod. If the rifle didn't shoot then, AND the trigger puller chosen to do the shooting is semi decent, then I would say you have a problem.

This is it exactly. I've never seen where LMT has published that an MWS is sub-MOA or even MOA.
All I have ever heard is 1.5 MOA is the manufacturers standard for the LMT. I can live with that.
Why is it that some people are expecting it to do more? Not that it can't. Mine can with 168gr handloads but, not on a consistent basis.
It is more of a 1.25" to 1.5" gun than a ragged hole puncher.

I look at it this way. If a rifle shoots 1.5 MOA at 500yds, theoretically you are looking at a 7.5" group instead of a 1 MOA 5" group.
Unless you are shooting a match or for groups, what difference is 2.5" at 500 yds really going to make?

 

[The Gump]

This is it exactly. I've never seen where LMT has published that an MWS is sub-MOA or even MOA.
All I have ever heard is 1.5 MOA is the manufacturers standard for the LMT. I can live with that.
Why is it that some people are expecting it to do more?

Had I understood that they guarantee only 1.5 MOA I would have spent that same $ on a GAP or JP. Don't get me wrong. I like the gun. It just shoots terrible. The farthest I shot it was 1035 yards on an IPSC. I could hit but I did miss a lot... with a $2700 rifle that shoots 2 MOA. Just sayin. My .260 barrel nails it.

 

[bm11]

did you end up selling your KAC also? if so, what AR 7.62 are you rocking now? or nothing?

I went back and forth on shortening/re profiling the ECR etc until an ECC became available, so I bought it. I didn't need both, and sold the ECR. The ECC is exactly what I wanted all along, and the lesson learned for me, yet again, is that I'm better off buying what I really want the first time (it's a lot cheaper that way.) The ECC shoots great, as well. I have had good days where literally every 5 shot group is sub MOA, and other days where I struggle to get a single group to come in under MOA. Thus is the curse of shooting a semi auto, I think.

 

[JeffLebowski]

I went back and forth on shortening/re profiling the ECR etc until an ECC became available, so I bought it. I didn't need both, and sold the ECR. The ECC is exactly what I wanted all along, and the lesson learned for me, yet again, is that I'm better off buying what I really want the first time (it's a lot cheaper that way.) The ECC shoots great, as well. I have had good days where literally every 5 shot group is sub MOA, and other days where I struggle to get a single group to come in under MOA. Thus is the curse of shooting a semi auto, I think.

So, are you saying that the ECC outshoots the MWS? Kinda hard to tell from your words.

 

[bm11]

So, are you saying that the ECC outshoots the MWS? Kinda hard to tell from your words.

I won't say that. I'll say that I can shoot anything with a bolt to 95% of its accuracy capability 95% of the time, but I am way too inconcsistant of a semi auto shooter, for some reason that still escapes me, to be able to tell.

All I will say is this- if you call KAC, they will tell you that ALL of their .308 rifles are sub MOA, they don't leave the factory if they are not, and they ship with a 5 round group on a test target to prove it. The test group that ships with your rifle is is very first group after three zeroing rounds, not a cherry picked group out of as many attempts as it takes.

If you call LMT, they make absolutely NO claims about the MWS being a sub MOA rifle, and depending on who you talk to, there is no intention as such. In fact, I was specifically told that reliability is more of a concern to them than accuracy. They are a battle rifle.

There are enough examples on the internet of sub MOA MWS' to show that they do exist. In summary, however, according to the companies that build them, one is a sub MOA rifle, and the other is not.

 

[Shooter0311]

816 gump. Maybe I missed it but did you call LMT and tell them that with match ammo and good shooter, you have at best a 2 Moa MWS? I am sure Gene would give you an RA just like he did BM11 and anyone else with a problem.

While they make no accuracy claims, my experience with CL and SS barrels has been good. I also bought an ECC after BM11 did and mine will not shoot with my SS barrel MWS. (I know one is CL and one is SS.) I do really like my ECC though!

 

[samnev]

Only shooting at 100y, and the gun groups best with "light loads."

I found the same thing with my 16"CL. Mine shoots best with 38 grains of 4895 behind the 168 grain SMK's. I worked loads in 0.2 grain increments from 37 grains to 42 grains. Interestingly that is exactly the same load that shoots best in my TRG 22 and AIAW. I also have the same problem quite often4/5 shoots well under an 1 moa and 1 shot opening the groups up to over 1 moa. But I only have 150 rounds thru the LMT so I am hoping it's accuracy will improve with more rounds thru the barrel. But I am not holding my breath. My most accurate 308 use to be my DPMS SASS but I recently got an H&K MR 762 and only have shot it once but the results are very promising.
Here is a photo of my first 15 shots with it. The middle target was my 100 yard final zero target the left one was my first 5shot 100 yard group. First 4 just over 0.5 moa. I pulled the last sit (buck fever). The last group is on the right 5 shoots @ 100 yards just over 0.5 moa. I haven't had a change to shoot it since then. I have never had any other of my 308 gasser's come close to these groups.