1/8 Twist .243 shoots 95's but not 105's on h4350 hmm

[demolitionman]

I did a TON of load development this weekend for my 243 Savage Stevens Action and CBI 1/8 Twist 243. I had a box of 105 berger VLD's, a box of 105 AMAX's, and went through hell trying to get them to shoot moa at 300ft. I finally said enough is enough, went to my local gun shop and picked up some SMK 95's. First two loads shot under moa with near perfect vertical. I am just blown away how everything says shoot 105's end of story. I can not get them to shoot. I ran 120 rounds through my gun in the last 3 days, and 105's are averaging about 1 1/2" no matter what. I had two loads: Bergers 40.6 h4350 JAMMED a few thousandths into the lands to shoot a touch over moa. Seems like if I didn't jamm the damn 105's I can't get them to shoot at 100 yards. Any tips would be great, or I guess I'm just going to settle for these 95SMK's....3thousandths off the lands they are shooting nicely. What a frustrating day!
I guess I just wanted to share. Any of you have similar results?

 

[trailrider121]

Bummer to hear it not working out for you. I have a few questions. Did you do all your testing at 300 ft? Is your CBI barrel a 1:8 twist? Did you check?

I would first find your powder node, then adjust col. VLD's are sensitive, try -.020, .-040, -.060, .080 and .100" off the lands. One or two col will show promise.

I have shot 105 vld and amaxs, both have shot well in my 243 win 1:8 tw shilen barrel. Loads 105 vld's using winchester brass and cci-250 primers, I used 46gr h1000 and .010" off the lands, the other is 47.5grs(over book max) H1000 and .090" off the lands. I also have used 41.5grs H4350 (over book max) and Wolf LR primer and .090" off the lands. Both above would shot 1" groups at 300 yards.

Amax's where .020" off and shot well

 

[6brshooter]

Try 41.5-42.5 gr h4350 or Imr4350, win case, br2, and 105 Berger vld .020-.030" off the lands. If there isn't a load in that combo i would be shocked. Next try h4831sc, 43.0-43.5 gr. I have 5-6 243 fast twist that shoot 42.0 or 42.5 h4350 with 107 smk or 43.0&43.5 with 105 vld. Best load is 42.5 h4350 with 107 smk scored a nice 4.75" 5 shot at 1k, with 4 shots measuring2.6".

 

[demolitionman]

Thank you 6br! I will try again and again....I'm kind of hoping I'm just not pushing the 105's with enough pow and soon as I get to adding more pow in the case maybe things will come around. I have only used h4350, and was hoping it would do the trick. I have a stack of Varget for my 6.5 Creed but have heard it's not worth doing for the larger pills of my 243. I'm gonna pick up some Retumbo this week and see what happens there. All this load development is getting to be a bit much and I'm quickly seeing why people buy Supressors. My neighbors are getting annoyed.

 

[zmann]

I loaded up 43gr of h4350 and then just adjusted my seating depth with the 105 hpbt's... 2.860 worked for me. Shoots 3130ish.

 

[demolitionman]

Here's a few of the groups I actually took pictures of, needless to say, none were better and some were worse. I shot about 30 5-shot groups...all looked about like these. This weekend I'm upping the powder charge and starting all over. I even went to extremes of shortening seating depth and that of course had atrocious results. Anyways, enjoy, I apologize for not including better picture load information...I have it all written down on my phone. All the pictures are of 105gr vld or amax, except for the one group inside the black which was the only group with a 95smk.

 

[Rob01]

Odd an 8 twist won't shoot the 105s. I have an 8.5 twist Bartlein in my .243 and it shoots the Hornady 105 BTHP great pushed by H4350. Some pics of my load work ups. I loaded them .020" off the lands.

 

[demolitionman]

Nice shoot'n Rob. Something is surely wrong with my setup somewhere...I have yet to bed the rifle to the stock and wasn't wanting to do it and frankly, I've always gotten moa out of heavy barrell savage rifles without bedding. The scope is a brand new Bushnell Elite 10 power, and I'm tempted to start blaming it on the scope. I have to do a scope swap to elimante that doubt soon. I guess I just had much higher expectations, and I'm not about to blame the barrell just yet. Oh well, I should have bought an SWFA SS and not this bushnell....:

 

[Rob01]

Thanks. Those pics are the first initial load testing and I know they will be tighter.

An 8 should shoot those bullets you have just fine. True 8 twists can shoot 115s most of the time with the right velocity. The way your loads look on target I would try and bed the rifle. Seems like there are a few together and then strays. I had a factory 700 that did that and after a bed job it stopped.

 

[proneshooter]

You just can't say that your rifle won't shoot 105s if all you have ever tried is H4350 and two different bullets. There are other powders that work well with heavy bullets in .243 Win. You've been given some good recommendations here. I will add H1000 to the mix of powders to try.

The two 105s you tried have secant ogives. Maybe your rifle prefers tangent ogive bullets. Try the Sierra 107 then.

Load development isn't always quick and easy.

 

[demolitionman]

Prone shooter, ill surely give the SMK 107's a go. Gonna get some Retumbo too.

 

[Rob01]

You should also try the 105 BTHP from Hornady. It has a higher BC than the AMAX as well at .530.

 

[demolitionman]

Well, after an hour of fiddling with my stock and action, and examining the tang and action screws relationship to how the aluminum bed and stock interface after tightening, it was obvious where my accuracy issues were coming from. The rear tang was holding all the rear action screw pressure because the stocks tang inletting was way too high. This kept the aluminum bed from ever touching the action even when heavily torqued on the rear bolt. I removed a ton of material behind the rear action screw all the way to the tang using a socket the same diameter as the action after being wrapped with sand paper. It's been prepped and I'm skim bedding it tommorow night. I'm almost certain I've found the source of my accuracy problem! I can't wait to get back to load development.

 

[Rob01]

That will definitely do it. A good skim should help out. Let us know how it works when you get it bedded.

 

[Danley]

On a Savage, float the tang. I always make sure the action sits on the aluminum bed (or pillars in some cases) by removing material as you did, and then bed around the recoil lug only. I also make sure the barrel nut isn't contacting the bedding. This has worked well for me.

 

[pawprint2]

Man that is a problem! The 95's were shooting well-not when you went heavier. I hope your torque issue solves the problem. If it does that will be one to "put back in the memory section". These are the kind of problems everyone has an opinion on, and most of our opinions on what to try next, don't work (mine included)! The fact that you jam seated early on in your testing eliminates the "needs xx amount of jump to work etc." I am very anxious to read how you solve this problem-great post by the way, nothing like a brain teaser in the morning! I hate to add something else for you to do, but as you are going to re-torqueing the action- are you going to try to find the "sweet spot" with a torque wrench? If you do, please post the groups and torques as you go through the process- and which one worked best for you and your action.

 

[6brshooter]

As mentioned float tang. I have bedded dozens of savages and found my techniques consistently works out. Pull trigger off, put 4-5 layers of masking tape under tang. Wrap barrel at the end of the barrel channel to center the barrel in the stock channel. With the right amount of layers, the action will hover just slightly off the bedding block. I use 1/4-28 4" long bolts with the heads cut off as guides. Put 2 layers of tape on the front of the lug and 3 layers on bottom and sides of lug. Wrap barrel nut with several layers of tap, past the front edge of the nut onto barrel. Clay in recess around trigger area. Release agent and bed. Drop action with studs on it and press down until taped barrel and tang make contact. Use black tape or surgical tube to hold in place with tension provided by the elasticity of tube or tape. Good catch on the tang , BTW

 

[demolitionman]

Gentleman, thank you all for the tips, advice and help. I'm hammer'n on this Kenworth and will let you all know how the bed job goes soon as I get to the home 20....the AC went out and I'm sweat'n bullets in the *%!*ing truck, pun intended!

 

[demolitionman]

Oh yeh, here's a pic of the tang; I removed way more than it looks! The socket with the sandpaper mic'd same as action.

 

[6brshooter]

I just got back from the range with my remage. Trued 700 with a 24" bull cbi 243 1-8. 105 [email protected](.020 off) and 43.5 h4831sc load shot an ave of .448". Had a 5 shot measure .600", but 4 were in a .187" bughole. Guess which shot was the pulled shot. This is 1 of 4 cbi barrels i have had. One 6.5 cm ar10 barrel was real good, my buddy asked how much for the rig and a quoted an insane price... cash in hand. The other was a 6.5 cm savage build, it was a hammer also, same buddy bought that one also. The last barrel i got is a 26" varmint6 br 1-8. 105 hybrids at 2920, actual speed figured from 1k drop. Best group ever shot in my life was with it, 20 rds prone, bipod and beanbag, .422".

 

[demolitionman]

Well...interesting night of bedding. The acraglas resin was half hard upon opening it, I had to stab at it to break the bottom apart and then I stirred it to death hoping the chunks would go away. They never did completely. This chunky half hard resin (before being mixed with hardener) consistency made me very uneasy so I went and bought JB WELD. Honestly, I'm pretty nervous about it even though it went smoothly. I'm hoping and praying it comes apart tommorow night. . . . Oh man.....

 

[demolitionman]

I skim bedded the rifle with JB WELD, and got To shoot it this Sunday! First load of 95smk's shot super nice! 2nd load of 95g smk's w/ 41gr h4350 is good enough for me (.3")! I moved onto the 105 berger VLD's and no go, as they are shooting far over moa with everything I tried when being propelled w h4350. So, is there any chance moving to a different say, slower pow may somehow get this thing to shoot sub moa with 105's? Retumbo? H1000?

Here's pics, because we all love pics...

 

[Rob01]

Did you bump the 105s past 40.7grns of H4350?

Try some of these
Hornady Match Bullets 243 Cal 6mm (243 Diameter) 105 Grain Hollow

 

[demolitionman]

Rob, I shot a lot more groups than posted pics of, yes I shot 42gr and 41.5 gr h4350 with 105's at various seating depths, still no go!

 

[milo 2.0]

Demo-man,
H1000, and Retumbo are really getting slow for this caliber, can't say they wont work, but I think you're going in the wrong direction.
Like Rob said, try the amax or 105 hybrid, good luck finding those. Some bullets just wont work in a gun.
I just built a 6mm BR, 95gr vld's shoot lights out. .160", the 88gr fb bullet, designed for 100-200 yards I can't get to group for shit, .750" at best, just waiting to burn the rest of them so I can try a diff bullet.
Try something else before you burn your throat out trying to make them work!

 

[varmint slayer]

Demo-man,
H1000, and Retumbo are really getting slow for this caliber, can't say they wont work, but I think you're going in the wrong direction.
Like Rob said, try the amax or 105 hybrid, good luck finding those. Some bullets just wont work in a gun.
I just built a 6mm BR, 95gr vld's shoot lights out. .160", the 88gr fb bullet, designed for 100-200 yards I can't get to group for shit, .750" at best, just waiting to burn the rest of them so I can try a diff bullet.
Try something else before you burn your throat out trying to make them work!

I use H1000 in a .243 with 105 Amax and get decent velocity. It's a 27" barrel, 1/8 twist and shoots .5-.75 MOA. 3050 FPS with a little more room for powder so I think it could be a 3100 FPS load with a long barrel like mine a a pinch more powder. The key with H1000 and a .243 is the longer barrel. Probably wont work all that well in a 20" barrel but when this barrel reaches the end if its life, I'm going to chop it and see how much a guy looses.

 

[trailrider121]

H1000 and Retumbo work great in 243 win. and 105's. Both slow powders get great velocity.

Varmint slayer- I chopped my 243 win 26" barrel down to 21". Using 105's @47.5grs H1000 with 26" barrel, I was getting 2995 avg. Same load with 21" barrel speed was 2885 fps avg. Both barrels with 8 shots to verify average speed. This test was at 2000' ASL

 

[varmint slayer]

H1000 and Retumbo work great in 243 win. and 105's. Both slow powders get great velocity.

Varmint slayer- I chopped my 243 win 26" barrel down to 21". Using 105's @47.5grs H1000 with 26" barrel, I was getting 2995 avg. Same load with 21" barrel speed was 2885 fps avg. Both barrels with 8 shots to verify average speed. This test was at 2000' ASL

Wow I use 46.5 in WIN cases and 45.5 in Lapua to get me 3050 FPS. I would think 47.5 would be into the 3100 range for me. Was it a factory barrel you chopped?

 

[trailrider121]

It was a Shilen S/S pre-fit barrel. Factory chamber specs

I have shot 105 vld and amaxs, both have shot well in my 243 win 1:8 twist Shilen pre-fit barrel. Loads 105 vld's using winchester brass and cci-250 primers, I used 46gr h1000 and .010" off the lands, the other is 47.5grs(over book max) H1000 and .090" off the lands. I also have used 41.5grs H4350 (over book max) and Wolf LR primer and .090" off the lands. Both above would shot 1" groups at 300 yards.

I got zero pressure signs with both loads, and is not hard on Winchester brass.

 

[milo 2.0]

I use H1000 in a .243 with 105 Amax and get decent velocity. It's a 27" barrel, 1/8 twist and shoots .5-.75 MOA. 3050 FPS with a little more room for powder so I think it could be a 3100 FPS load with a long barrel like mine a a pinch more powder. The key with H1000 and a .243 is the longer barrel. Probably wont work all that well in a 20" barrel but when this barrel reaches the end if its life, I'm going to chop it and see how much a guy looses.

Is this the gun combo you were shooting at the Hide Cup the day I was watching you? The speed of your bullet, coupled with the rate you were firing them, you were missing targets faster and more frequently than I've ever had the pleasure of witnessing!!

 

[varmint slayer]

Is this the gun combo you were shooting at the Hide Cup the day I was watching you? The speed of your bullet, coupled with the rate you were firing them, you were missing targets faster and more frequently than I've ever had the pleasure of witnessing!!

Tell me you are joking before I shit in this guys thread with me rebuttal...

 

[milo 2.0]

Tell me you are joking before I shit in this guys thread with me rebuttal...

Poop away!

 

[varmint slayer]

Is this the gun combo you were shooting at the Hide Cup the day I was watching you? The speed of your bullet, coupled with the rate you were firing them, you were missing targets faster and more frequently than I've ever had the pleasure of witnessing!!

Poop away!

Ok don't say I didn't give you a chance to explain your comments and set me straight that you were joking and just giving a guy a hard time...


Yes this is the combo that I was using at the Cup and I invite you step up and put your money where your mouth is by signing up proving how much better you think you are. It's not as easy as just strolling up to the firing line and shooting a few targets. You have to find all the targets which is not easy by any stretch, make a range card that is legible and is detailed enough to be able to actually find all the targets when you need to, get accurate dope on the card, and then get setup and find all the targets again from a different vantage point and range than the staging area and do it all in 5 min. Not a fucking easy task there ass wipe. Did I have a bad stage on Complex D? Yeah and so did a lot of other people over the course of 3 days. Hell the whole A complex kicked my ass due to a bad zero. The average score per stage was probably only about 3-4 points out of a possible 10 with the number 1 guy only averaging 6.5 points per stage. The targets where not all that big or close and the wind over that terrain is not easy to read without any indicators down range. You saw me have a bad stage but did you see me be one of four people to hit the 1020+/- a few yards target in Complex D? Did you see me hit 7/10 targets on a stage in Complex C? No you didn't. It's pretty easy to just lean on a cane by the staging area and think that you can do better than somebody else. Well I got news for you, it's not easy and until the day comes where you step up and put your money where your mouth is, stick a cock in that keyboard commando mouth and quit making yourself look like a moron with every post.