LOL, I don't have to back up my statements you back them up with every post you make.
- Thread starter Siso
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LOL, I don't have to back up my statements you back them up with every post you make.
The correct question would be..... are you retarded?
Show me one place GAP ever claimed the GAP10 as a combat platform?
State your source in which the "top trainers" are running the SR25.
You pump KAC so hard it's hard not to see you are clearly way up their ass, it's sad. Any real shooter, someone with significant time behind multiple platforms knows you don't buy a fucking KAC SR25.
A snipers most deadly weapon is his radio?! Yes, because you go to radio school for years.... give me a break. You are a clown in a ghillie suit!
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I'm gonna side with KY on this and you're wrong. GAP only uses POF's upper and lower receiver frames with the unitized handguard which are excellent IMO. I've also had an issue with my GAP-10 before and George never once blamed me but instead knew it was an error on their part and he took care of it on the spot. And since when has Bartlein barrels been "shitty parts"?
I think there are probably more people on this site that would put Gap above KAC.... Judging from threads I have read.... Not saying I personally wouldn't like a KAC....but I find it hard to spend that much more money on a rifle that arguably doesn't perform significantly better than other high end AR's like JP, Gap,LMT, Larue, LWRC, etc....one day I might just buy one....
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And I would argue that POF is shit. They used the badger FF rail for years, which is also shit for anything but a bench rifle. I do agree with most of what your saying.
The big thing to take away, is that an AR's accuracy is almost entirely derived from its barrel. Take a high quality barrel (like bartlien), install it right and float it right, it will shoot great. I do think gap was one of the first to use real top end barrels for their 10 builds, and that is why they were always known as tack drivers. Now everyone has caught on, and you can order a chambered AR10 barrel from most of the big dogs, you can build a VERY accurate rifle in your house with COTS parts and the right tools/a little knowledge.
I would not buy a GAP, beacuse I tend to abuse and run my gear hard. Same reason I won't own a JP. They make great guns, but they are game/comp guns, not made for serious long term abuse.
The OBR is a better thought out and designed rifle than the GAP. That's not to say next to each other , on a bench.... that the gap won't "outshoot" it or has the potential to. But for field use, the Larue is a more hardy and robust rifle. Same goes for LMT and KAC.
Brother I thought the same thing until I actually shot them. Its a steep price to pay and there are massive diminishing returns..... but they are there. They are the only AR variants I buy now....everything else I build myself. I know one of the problems with the early guns was the old KAC 2 stage. It would fail and that was spot for guys on the teams and oda's. One of the reasons Gieselle became so popular in his early DMR/Hi Speed days, as they would replace the KAC with the Hi Speeds. As a long term Bill G fan.... The new KAC 2 stage is fucking soo good, that I don't have to replace it. I am not going to say its better, but the difference is so small its not worth it to replace it. They have also been running and refining the design since the late 80's early 90's..... alot of time and money to get it where it is now.
Very good points. So do you think that Larue could in fact improve their rifle even more by making their own barrels? Or do you think they are merely shooting for the same quality or accuracy as they already enjoy?
Tapatalk2
I honestly don't know. I do know that they will increase their margins and make more money off each gun. If barrels are truley the reason for the backlog, then they should be able to pump out more rifles....and with demand, they will sell every single one of them.
There is a learning curve and from everything I have read, even the newer high end barrel makers on the market are run/owned by guys who worked at places like Krieger or CLE,ect for years before branching off on their own. Unless Mark L went out and got someone with a decade experience and knows all the ins and outs of the business, the process, the metallurgy, the equipment maintience and how it synergizes with the AR platform.... There may be a speed bump for a while.
Guys are picky when it comes to barrels. Its not a cheap/quick endevor for bolt guns and people tend to stick with known quantities unless they are trying to cut corners and save a few bucks.
I would personally not shell out that kind of money for a untried and proven barrel. There are to many other options out there for me to drop that kind of coin, and then know what kind of shit I would have to deal with if I ever had an issue. Add the secrecy surrounding it and Larue not coming out and explaining how they intend to work this process into their operation.......doesn't instill a great ammount of confidence in me... personally.
I get the feeling the semi auto section has younger people in it than the bolt section. I did not realize there was that much animosity towards Larue in the semi auto community until I read this thread. Seems they come out with some good stuff, I think its a good idea to have more manufacturers of more parts than less.
Good points Cobra. I don't run DIs anymore but the OBR always intrigued me but the lead times being as atrocious as they are turned me away. I was becoming more interested in the KAC lately as I have been hearing a lot more positive information than in the past.
Tapatalk2
Tapatalk2
As far as accuracy goes I believe it's determined by the barrel and the trigger. I also wouldn't be so quick to discount the GAP-10 or the LRP 07 as comp guns since I can name several shooters who have employed both with relatively great success. Despite what others would try to have people believe I as well as others have never discounted the OBR as a good rifle, I just don't think it's better than the fare offered by JP, GAP, LMT, or even Noveske.
Your talking but your not really saying anything. I am trying to be kind.
Trigger has little to nothing to do with Mechanical accuracy of the weapon. It has to do with user input and while it may make it easier to shoot with less variance, it does not make the gun more accurate. I already explained above where the accuracy from an AR platform comes from.
Please Name several shooters, and the rigors they have put their GAP/JP through. Unless they are used in combat, for extended periods of time, after proper T&E has been done with multitude of samples to ensure consistency.... Then they aren't proven. Just because your uncle Cletus or Joe Bob the local 3 gun guru uses one of those rifles, doesn't mean its on the same playing field as proven platforms.
KAC and LMT have been through there and come out on top. OBR most likely would pass some trials but I don't believe its ever been truly tested in numbers. A sniper comp is a game and no where near the same as living on the side of a mountain in the stan for 4 months, rifle getting banged, knocked, dropped, and thrashed the whole time. GAP/JP would probably not make it past the first couple stages because of either parts that aren't robust enough for the abuse or fatigue/wear/reliability issues from gun game parts. Just hypetheticals, but that's where I would put my money.
EDIT: Point is until the rifle/system has been proven.... it means little. For the same reason I don't buy a new generation car or play crash dummy on the weekend.........I don't trust my life to unproven equipment.
For starters, cut the hardcore mountain living crap POG. We all know you were KAF/BIAP baby. The AMU guys are using JPE guns more often than not. 1ST group has OBRs by and large, but several ODAs are using JP guns so its got nearly the same pedigree as the OBR. As someone that has carry knights products in the field (dont even try it poglett, there are no snipers MTOEd to support units) I can attest to an almost sixty percent failure rate of M110s and SR25s in both brigades Ive been in. Within 90 days of arriving in theater, 60 percent of our 110s were deadlined and enroute home. SO, Ill take a JPE or a GAP 10 over something that Ive seen fail repeatedly time and time again.
Weapon adoption by a service or by USSOCOM doesn't necessarily mean that particular piece of hardware is perfect nor ideal -- it may have been adopted to meet a certain set of requirements -- sometimes NOT written by the ultimate users.
Look at some of the recent Army winners (M9 pistol and M26 shotgun) and SOCOM selections (Mark 23 pistol, SCAR Light).
The first-generation SR-25s were no winner, either.
Look at some of the recent Army winners (M9 pistol and M26 shotgun) and SOCOM selections (Mark 23 pistol, SCAR Light).
The first-generation SR-25s were no winner, either.
Only been to BIAP a few times....Stryker side. More time at Ramadi, TQ, LSA, Cedar I/II, Taji, Mousel and Kuwait since your a fucking mind reader.
I never even remotely claimed to be a sniper, so take your shit somewhere else...
I disagree in respect to the triggers affect on accuracy.
As for the latter I don't have an Uncle Cletus or know and 3gun gurus but I do know Jon Lester with Team Bushnell who uses a GAP-10, or how about Scott & Ryan with PTS who use LRP's. Then there's several members of Team GAP who use GAP-10's for obvious reasons. As for your use of a battle proven system then your SR25 is no better than a Mark 17 which undergoes the same if not harsher environments and yet the users of them would rather have any number of systems instead of those platforms. And if you limit yourself to only "proven" systems, which I assume you meant battle tested platforms, then you're choosing to overlook real innovations and numerous better platforms. Too each their own though...
According to some members the later generations weren't winners either...
If you are not a sniper... why do you feel qualified to pump KAC so hard in "combat" conditions. If you haven't deployed and used said weapon in a combat environment. You need to take a seat and stop acting.
I know several enlisted men, one in which owns a SR25 as his personal weapon. His biggest complaints are poor accuracy, poor build quality, parts fitment is awful, and ergonomics. He is more then qualified to answer on the matter as he is a trained marksman with the military.
FYI - you are on a site that is predominantly competition and recreational shooters. Most guys here won't evaluate a weapon system in combat. For you to come on here and judge a platform only by combat deployments is biased. Let us not forget that he who bids BOTTOM DOLLAR gets the military contracts.
That trial series means shit if you are promoting an extremely pricey rifle system. I am more then positive if the military said "ok, trials are open to all makers regardless of price" LWRC, JP, Larue, and GAP would smoke KAC. The quality is lacking but they make their money in secured contracts from previous bids.
There is alot more to contracting than the bottom dollar, but all things being equall, the selecting offical will take the lowest bidder if they have confidence the bidder can complete and satisfy the contract. There are certain requirements (Like manual saftey that would DQ a glock from most pistol trials, despite it being one of the most effective and cheapest pistols made) that have to be met, and the bureaucracy and massivley broken procurement system will keep good bidders away. Ignore something on a statement of work or requirements document, and there is a very good chance you are going to lose before the race even starts.
I doubt that those companies would SMOKE KAC, considering the requirements of the system. We are talking about a .308 semi rifle here, not a custom bolt gun. You can build it tight as shit, but throw some sand and mud in there, and then freeze it for a few days, and tell me how reliable it is? There are comprimises that have to be met. My gut tells me companies like Larue, GAP, LWRC, and JP would lose before they even started. They don't have the manufacture capacity to even build as many rifles as are needed. Look at the projected units under a Fixed or IDIQ (contract ceiling) and the playing field gets alot smaller.
Sponsered Gun gammers shooting guns they are paid to shoot.....not the best arguement.
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So you're literally eliminating anyone who has the most credibility which is how they got sponsored in the first place? It doesn't look good for the shooter or the sponsor if they can't perform in the field. You asked for names and I provided them. I could easily provide names of people currently active/deployed and using the same systems being discussed but they're not in a public light so I don't feel it's appropriate unlike sponsored shooters who are already under such exposure and publicly tout the wares we're discussing.
So the guys that have these "inferior" weapon systems in their hands... the same "gun gammers" that you claim have no bearing on testing can't run their gun as hard as a guy in the military?
I knew my assumption on your logic was close.
It's common knowledge that any competition shooter is often very different from a military marksman. I would say that a competitive shooter keeps a higher round count then a mil guy. Shoots more rounds per engagement and has more time on the trigger.
The military guys have a structured schedule to go by and don't get much time on their guns compared to a competitive shooter getting ready for matches. A comp shooter abuses their guns plenty, I have done it, as have others. The semi auto platforms as of today flat out perform much better then their predecessors.
KAC is old technology and you cannot dispute that. They may get by with making a fancy rail system update or adding a sling swivel here and there but for the most part, KAC SR25 or any variant is unchanged. Which, in reality they should be embarrassed. The rifles are lacking, and if I am paying that premium because their name is stamped on it.... well, no thanks keep your guns in that case boys.
There appears to be at least three different threads intertwined in this one. From what I can make of it:
Laure is a horses ass, pissed off a lots of people-can assume no personal responsibility or that of his products.
Combat proven weapons-those proven in combat-meet a far different standard than a match weapon, pure accuracy and the ability to function for a days event set up for the individual shooter and him alone, has no relationship to weapons that must deliver good accuracy, but function day in and day out without support and have a common set-up, a speed boat to a tug boat.
Match shooters and hobbyists are attempting to equate military issue/military combat use weapons to customized match weapons-I'd love to read both sides, but I think it would better serve the Hide, if it were done on a separate thread, maybe one entitled, "Customized match rifles vs Military issue Combat weapons".
just saying.......
Laure is a horses ass, pissed off a lots of people-can assume no personal responsibility or that of his products.
Combat proven weapons-those proven in combat-meet a far different standard than a match weapon, pure accuracy and the ability to function for a days event set up for the individual shooter and him alone, has no relationship to weapons that must deliver good accuracy, but function day in and day out without support and have a common set-up, a speed boat to a tug boat.
Match shooters and hobbyists are attempting to equate military issue/military combat use weapons to customized match weapons-I'd love to read both sides, but I think it would better serve the Hide, if it were done on a separate thread, maybe one entitled, "Customized match rifles vs Military issue Combat weapons".
just saying.......
From a family member, while deployed, "Honestly as far as the M110 goes. . . . . . . . . it hasn't left a good taste in my mouth overall as a weapons system.
As my team's armory rep I have had more exposure to them than most guys around me, and the system has been plagued with issues the whole time we've dealt with them. We had 4 brand new guns on my team alone, and two additional K1 uppers, and there wasn't a single one that didn't have issues at one point or another.
It's been really frustrating for me to put it mildly.
Make no mistake, the concept is absolutely what we are looking for--- a 7.62 gas gun, compact enough to patrol and carry around, maneuverable, but able to reach out and hit hard when needed---
it's just been a botched execution and I'm tired of dealing with it.
You get lucky or you don't. You either get a good M110 or you don't. And there a lot of not-good ones out there."
No personal experience with them, but I'm taking his word for it.
As my team's armory rep I have had more exposure to them than most guys around me, and the system has been plagued with issues the whole time we've dealt with them. We had 4 brand new guns on my team alone, and two additional K1 uppers, and there wasn't a single one that didn't have issues at one point or another.
It's been really frustrating for me to put it mildly.
Make no mistake, the concept is absolutely what we are looking for--- a 7.62 gas gun, compact enough to patrol and carry around, maneuverable, but able to reach out and hit hard when needed---
it's just been a botched execution and I'm tired of dealing with it.
You get lucky or you don't. You either get a good M110 or you don't. And there a lot of not-good ones out there."
No personal experience with them, but I'm taking his word for it.
Bingo.
If Mark can make quality barrels (and I have no doubt he will) he pumps out more highly-regarded quality rifles. The civilian market consumer doesn't have to wait in line behind government customers. He sells more rifles, he makes more money.
If he screws it up he'll take a huge fall -- and he's too smart to do that.
Eventually a government agency will put out another tender -- maybe for a complete 16-inch 7.62, maybe just for the uppers. He wins or doesn't.
Right now, Special Forces shooters (on their own dime) like OBRs. You put your money where your mouth is.
Capitalism.
No one disputes a competitive shooter is putting more rounds down range. What they aren't doing is putting their weapons through the rigors of military training and combat.
Shooting time and attention to he systems is totally dependent on what type of unit your in, the command climate(how training oriented your NCO's are and how much support they get from the O's), and the budget.
Your average active duty infantryman or 19D, really is not getting that much trigger time, they will spend alot of time in the field, rucking, doing MOUT, ect.... but there are so many other tasks and skills that have to be worked on.
Even in some of the sexy units, it depends on where you are. Good buddy of mine was a 11B SOTIC grad in 2/75 with 6 deployments between OIF/OEF. The snipers and recce platoon got more trigger time , but the avg line grunt did not get to shoot as much as you would think.
You do realize that the SR was the first real AR10 variant since the origional armalites and there are some good pics of guys in the late 80's/early 90's trying to take a 10 and turn it into a DMR type rifle. Accuracy is not always the most important atribute. Once again, they arent bench rilfes, We all have heard the stories about the M110, The army got what it asked for, in the numbers it wanted, based on a design that they approved. That is how the game is played. It's a complex system, and even a gun built from the ground up a SOCOM rifle (SCAR) had LOTS of design and teething issues... some that still havent been worked out. Unitl GAP10's, OBR, POF, LWRC have been put to the same tests, and meet or exceed the level of performance based on defined criteria... then there is only assumtions.
Old technology? Have you even handled or shot a SR15E3 or a SR-25ECC or K1/K2. This is my last post in this thread, were not even talking about LARUE anymore and there is no point debating this here,
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ok so how about them larue barrels...? anyone? Bueller? .... Bueller?
I have owned or shot every major AR10 variant there is. The only one that met my standards of accuracy and repeatability were the GAP10.
While the OBR was nice, I did not like continually waiting for their next set of excuses as to why they could not deliver.
You above statement clearly tells us all we need to know about why a KAC should not be chosen as an investment from a serious shooters standpoint. "Accuracy is not always the most important attribute".
It is when someone's life is on the line or it's the shot that makes or breaks a top place finish in a major comp.
Sorry for going off track OBR barrel lovers..... back to it.
While the OBR was nice, I did not like continually waiting for their next set of excuses as to why they could not deliver.
You above statement clearly tells us all we need to know about why a KAC should not be chosen as an investment from a serious shooters standpoint. "Accuracy is not always the most important attribute".
It is when someone's life is on the line or it's the shot that makes or breaks a top place finish in a major comp.
Sorry for going off track OBR barrel lovers..... back to it.
this debate is worthless, he is set in his ideals, and then there is reality. no use arguing, and no use taking this thread on anymore of a rocketing tangent. When i'm sure people actually want to talk about larue's barrel venture. Its the internet people can be as high speed as they like. I'm not a operator i just stayed in a holiday in express last night and fell asleep watching commando. This attitude of being elite is the very reason KAC or larue owners (not all) but the cult like following of them turns me off. Mark has and will continue to make nice stuff, KAC is machined very nicely and they do put a ton of money in development, but if you say that just cuz a operator or department uses it makes it head and shoulders above anyone else's guns? your high. But then again what do I know.
Silence Coffee Boy!
Actually bro, most sf guys shoot obr's because larue gives us a hell of a discount on them and larue has many sniper instructors in his pocket so they pimp obr's to the students who know fuck all about precision shooting at the time.
Really?
I don't own a Larue nor a KAC.
I have lots of bits and pieces from both.
What's this got to do with his barrels?
I don't own a Larue nor a KAC.
I have lots of bits and pieces from both.
What's this got to do with his barrels?
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well your not active anymore, so you probably have not been to the bragg course lately. there you will find many larue fanboys. you 20th?Really?
I don't own a Larue nor a KAC.
it has to do with people spewing that SF guys own obr's so they must be great. i have many friends that fit that bill, while they are great shooters, they buy obr's because they get great deals on them. the fact that they buy them should not sway someone to buy an obr.Really?
I don't own a Larue nor a KAC.
I have lots of bits and pieces from both.
What's this got to do with his barrels?
If Laroo can turn out his own pipes and still keep the accuracy, good for them.
I would not buy one before or after so doesn't matter to me.
The KAC fan boy junk is funny, since my cash doesn't grow on trees, I want the most bang for my buck. I'd put a GAP or JP up against any KAC out and in any conditions. If you don't think rifles get beat to hell in comps, might want to go to a few and watch. I know my home built .264 was thrown in the sand/dirt, slammed onto shooting positions and rained on several times at the last comp, kept on running strong. There is no doubt in my mind a GAP or JP would do the same.
I would not buy one before or after so doesn't matter to me.
The KAC fan boy junk is funny, since my cash doesn't grow on trees, I want the most bang for my buck. I'd put a GAP or JP up against any KAC out and in any conditions. If you don't think rifles get beat to hell in comps, might want to go to a few and watch. I know my home built .264 was thrown in the sand/dirt, slammed onto shooting positions and rained on several times at the last comp, kept on running strong. There is no doubt in my mind a GAP or JP would do the same.
Really?
I don't own a Larue nor a KAC.
I have lots of bits and pieces from both.
What's this got to do with his barrels?
How do you have a cab instead of a cib? I thouvht 18 series got cibs?
Only if they (11b/11c/18x) are assigned to an infantry unit, in active ground combat at the time. If they are attached or filling a billet in a non infantry enitity, they would get a CAB instead.
nope, if you are a 11 or 18 series, you engage in combat, you get a cib, like when sf used to be assigned to ca units, they would still get cib's. it has to do with your mos.
Take your foot out of your mouth. AR 600-8-22
https://www.hrc.army.mil/TAGD/Awards and Decorations Branch - Combat Infantry Badge CIB
You are 100% wrong, so lets get this thread back on track.
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I agree. Id like to start by saying that Im not a group guy (land navs a mother fucker, dont judge lol.)
As for with the non infantry billeting, how does someone with an 18 series MOS get assigned to anything but an infantry unit? There were some ODA guys working with CA in helmand, but they were still in SF slots from what they said. Its not like would pull an SF commo dude to be an RTO for a POG unit. So, if he deployed with an ODA it would be a CIB.
Some guys leave the teams and go back to reg army or decide to finish their service out in the guard/reserves. They might not want to stay on an ODA/B/C in the guard with the training/time commitment (one of my old plt sgts was a GB, and that was in a guard light cav sqdrn...Hands down the best fucking NCO I have ever met in my life).
They could get tired of the liftstyle and go back to the RA , doing any number of things. Some of them decide to drop packets and go WO and fly or go to Law school or any other combination.
Some guys decide to go to other specialized units or programs ( like AMU or as a liaison) and take their skills and experiences to share with Big army or other branches.
It really is interesting, some of the stories I have heard over the years about people doing things or being in places that makes no conventional sense to how the army works. If you are in the right place at the right time or know the right people, or have the right skillset........anything is possible.
The CAB/CIB issue has been pretty much cleared up. Back in 05, when commands still didn't fully understand the reqs and what qualifies for the CAB, it was crazy. The paperwork, sworn statements, and documention required for them to award you a CAB at the time........was insanse. There are a TON of people who qualified, but never got it beacuse of paperwork or command incompetence. My award packet was submitted mid-late 2005, and I did not even get the award until after I got back, over 9 months later. For some reason, they guys in HHC seemed to get their packets approved rather quickly and the guys on the line.... unless there was valor awards or purple hearts being awarded......either got shafted or had to wait a long time for theirs.
If you are an 11 or 18 assigned above Group or Regiment (i.e., you work for the CG of JSOC) you get a CAB.
What's this got to do with Larue barrels?
What's this got to do with Larue barrels?
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Guys on the line? In a support unit? No.
You can keep up this know it all shit, but now your Just talking to an empty room. You and your "i already explained it to you" shit has already gotten on everyones nerves. Your a pog, your inadequate, and have no measurable worth. Your just coming on here spewing incorrect information.
The question i asked that you felt the need to try to explain was answered by someone that should know. And then you come out acting like he doesnt know what hes talking about.
Children and pogs are meant to be seen, not heard.
You can keep up this know it all shit, but now your Just talking to an empty room. You and your "i already explained it to you" shit has already gotten on everyones nerves. Your a pog, your inadequate, and have no measurable worth. Your just coming on here spewing incorrect information.
The question i asked that you felt the need to try to explain was answered by someone that should know. And then you come out acting like he doesnt know what hes talking about.
Children and pogs are meant to be seen, not heard.
What the fuck are you babbling about. Stop putting words in peoples mouths. Please show me where I contridcted anything sinster said. You asked a dumb question, and I... stupidly awsnered it. Your not even worth the time it took to type this.
Guys on the line... yea... line platoons running gun trucks and convoys, who had the highest KIA/WIA rate durring OIF. Stop the dick measuring.......no one is impressed. Everyone has a role to play and there were plenty of 11B's sitting on fobs doing QRF that never even got to fire their weapon in anger. Stop painting a broad brush. Here is the unit we replaced http://www.veteransmagazine.com/membersarea/MagazineIssues/09thmag/ambush.pdf I guess the MP's who got silver stars were fucking pogues to since they werent 11B's. Maybe the guy below in my sig, who won the silver star for saving his buddies life by laying on top and blocking the secondary blasts from a complex IED attack.
Don't be mad that you post bogus info (than any 12year old could google the regs) and then get defesive when your proven wrong. You asked a stupid question " How do you have a cab instead of a cib? I thouvht 18 series got cibs? " then get mad when someone gives you legit awsners. Anyone with more than a year in the army and especialy infantrymen know the awsner to that. Then you question the regs.
I don't remmeber you asking your dumb ass question to only 18 series guys. Its an open forum. Go play of socnet if you need validation.
Has nothing to do with barrels..................
Now how about those motherfucking, god damn, barrels that the fucking topic is about?
I'll let you know down the road if I ever receive my 7.62 PredatOBR.
I'm curious as to the materials, and construction of it. I know he used Lothar for awhile. They looked nice, but I'm wondering if Larue's barrels will be something of his own design or a carbon copy of Lothar's design.
Thank you for the consideration. I would be interested in hearing how it does.
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Wait a minute, this sounds way too much like common sense... Who let that in here to disturb my lurking with popcorn while the fireworks show is in full swing???
Oh, and since I am having a stream of consciousness moment, did any of you guys hear that Larue is going to start making their own barrels...?
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