F T/R Competition Difference in barrel/bullets for short range vs mid range vs. long range?

[wwrhodes91]

Alright so the local club matches consist of 20 shots @ 200 (1" X ring) and 20 shots @ 300 (1.5" X ring). I intend to shoot in this match every month. I would also like to work my way up to 600 yard matches in the future. Here is where I am unsure about equipment. I know that the 30" barrels shooting the 185 Bergers are very popular for 1000 yard matches right now. I just want to know how much of this would translate to short and mid range performance? Would I be fine with a 24" barrel? Would a 175 SMK be outclassed significantly? My issue is that I only have enough funds to own and operate one match quality rifle and while I want it to be as competitive as possible, I also need to consider flexibility. I would very much prefer a barrel no longer than 26" and would love it if I could use the 175 SMK and 178 A-max. Following the same preferences, I would prefer to have a stock that is useful for more than just dedicated target shooting. I know this probably sounds like a case of "Best of both worlds ending up as mediocre at both", and if I wanted to compete seriously at 1000 yards I know that is probably the case, but I know that I can already be competitive at 300 with my very much tactical setup... I am starting to ramble, but I guess my main question is if it is possible (as in able to be very competitive) with a more tactical styled rifle out to 600 yards.

I guess I have something like the rifle in this article in mind.
F-Class TR Tactical .308
But I know the trends are different now.

 

[XTR]

At those ranges shorter and stiffer would probably be better than long.

You can go to JBM and crunch a bunch of scenarios and see just how much difference the MV of a long barrel would buy for you. For a general back of an envelope number figure 20FPS/inch past 24 inches. It's close enough.

I'd also look very hard at shooting 155s. The Sierra [2156] palma bullet is a very good choice. If you can find a light flat based bullet that will shoot well in your rifle you could use those too. Boat tail bullets don't start paying dividends until you get out to 400 yards+. One thing to consider in all of this is barrel twist. If you are not planning to shoot 1000 and not planning to shoot the 185gr+ bullets get no more than a 1:12 twist. It will stabilize the 175/185s and shouldn't over rotate the lighter bullets. I've talked with service rifle shooters that shot 125s in a Garand for the short range comps to reduce recol. It is something you may want to consider.

There aren't a lot of posters here that have short range competition experience, most of the posters here tend to be long range shooters, or want/plan to be long range shooters. All of my competition as a target shooter is at 600 or long range so I've got no experience working up loads with the lighter offerings but I know that it's done. I'd ask some questions over on accurateshooter.com and see if you get any good feedback. If you can find someone who had shot a 30BR and see what bullet they have used. You really don't need a heavy bullet for 300 yards or less.

Something else to seriously consider, from 600 yards in the 223 gives up little or nothing to a 308 depending on loads and bullets. I've set up a 223 running the 80 Amax for my 600 yard gun. In an 18lb F-TR rifle recoil is closer to a rimfire than a 308, you use about 1/2 the powder, and bullets are 1/2 the price or less, and Lake City brass is usually plentiful and as good as any. I have found that my 223 is probably the most fun rifle to shoot that I own.

 

[40xs]

Ok! First off, the whole purpose of high B.C. and long barrels is to make the shot stay supersonic at 1000yds. Along with keeping the total moa as low as possible to stay under as much wind as possible to keep the velocity up, to buck the wind better, to remain stable at distance and hopefully to keep your grouping as tight as possible so your target will look better at the end of your string of fire. Now, after that mouthfull I will add that for competitions at 200 &300 you can be competitive with a shorter barrel and lighter bullets, mainly because your velocities will still be up there, the wind will not have as much affect due to elapsed time being very short, your moa comeups will be flat. In other words the greatest competition will based on ones individual marksmanship ability and not so much on what barrel length or what bullet you use or whether you can read the wind at being 2mph at 11 oclock or 4mph at 4 oclock. Now I know some members are going to want to jump on this and say " well yeah, but in this case", or " yeah, but you still need to do this or that", and they will be correct and it will all apply, but I'm just giving you an overall basic answer to you question. Go shoot with what ya got!

 

[40xs]

Sorry, XTR, you and I were typing at the same time and I got interrupted and finished after you did. had I read your post before submitting mine I would have declined as yours was done more eloquently. Well said!

 

[1TallTx'n]

Thank you wwrhodes91. You asked the question I've been needing to ask.

 

[gstaylorg]

Early on, I was fortunate enough to purchase two GAP rifles that I started out using for F-Class comps at 600 yd, and later out to 1000 yd. The first was a Crusader with a 23" 11-twist barrel in a McMillan A5 stock, the 2nd was a Hospitaller with a 24" 11-twist barrel in a Manners T4A stock. Although the Crusader is currently wearing a 30" pipe, both of those rifles are/were absolute hammers out to 600 yd and beyond, and I've done very well in local competitions using them. You don't necessarily need a 30" barreled custom rifle to get good results at 600 yd, especially as you start out. An accurized Remy 700 or factory Savage rifle out of the box with a 26" barrel will do everything you need to get started. As you improve, you can figure out whether you want to upgrade either one with a longer barrel, etc.

 

[wwrhodes91]

Thanks for all the great answers guys! Just to provide more context, I won't be swapping barrels for at least a year. I just like to have an idea about what I'm getting into so I don't make a mistake. 24-26" will probably be what I go with. I use a remmy 5R right now with a 11.25 twist and I'll experiment with bullets in it to see if I want to keep a similar twist. The rifle shoots a few sub 1/3 moa groups every range trip so the accuracy is pretty good for factory, but I still plan on getting the action trued when I rebarrel. Speaking of, any gunsmiths you guys would reccomend? I was looking at LongRifles which is doing the group buy now, and PR&T. Last question, which contour would you suggest? I was thinking something like M24, MTU, or heavy palma.

 

[goldy1]

My experience with short range vs mid range and out. Shooting a 6mm brx showed a definite difference in bullets. At short range (100-300) it would put the 107 sierras in tight. At 300 it would routinely do .75" and .125 at 100. On the other hand with the berger 105 vlds at 300 it would be closer to 1.25" and .5" at 100. I chose the Sierra till at 1000 I tried some bergers again and they shot 2moa higher and alot tighter. For my rifle it showed a great difference. Just pick a couple and try them at the distances and see what happens.

 

[paul T]

Shoot the berger 185g Vlds in a 308 24in barrel blaser rifle with a stout load of varget at 800y and happy enough with results however at 1000y groups tend to open up with lower velocity from shorter 24in barrel.

 

[XTR]

Shoot the berger 185g Vlds in a 308 24in barrel blaser rifle with a stout load of varget at 800y and happy enough with results however at 1000y groups tend to open up with lower velocity from shorter 24in barrel.

I wouldn't blame that on your barrel too much, all 308s begin to suffer at 1000. For reference, I shoot a 32" barrel. I've cleaned a 15 shot Palma match at 800 and 900 this yr, but 1000 is still not feeling to threatened.

 

[SWRichmond]

The most important thing I want to tell any shooter who is considering shooting in competitions is this: GO DO IT. Don't worry about "being competitive" (which almost always means: I don't want to embarrass myself). Sometimes I think people avoid competitions because they are afraid they will lose the ability to convince themselves they're good shots if they see people who really are. At most competitions you will see a few people who really are and quite a few who are "on the steep part of the learning curve".

If you want to get good at something, you can either reinvent the wheel or you can hang out with people who are already good at it or are also trying to be. As far as I am concerned all of you guys who read this blog and who could otherwise afford it but DON'T shoot in competitions are the ones who should be embarrassed. Get your ass and your rifle to the range. You are there to learn and you are competing against yourself, first and foremost. There will be ups and downs. Chances are you won't go kick ass the first year or more....but if you give it the effort it deserves you WILL become a much better shooter. After about two years or so the wind is starting to make sense to me. I am shooting a 26" barrelled .308 at 1000 off a Harris bipod and rear brick bag and during a recent effort put 11 out of 15 in the ten ring at 1000 (146/150-3X). I'm pretty effin happy about that; trust me, IT DIDN'T START THAT WAY, and I still get my butt kicked by conditions sometimes.

If you wanna shoot 175's then shoot them. Show up with a good zero and good ballistic data and shoot.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Ditto that last post.

If you try to get it perfect before you start, you'll probably never start. Getting started isn't about winning, it's about learning the ropes so you have a foundation you can build success on. Yes, a 24" is OK, and yes, the 175 is a damned fine bullet for starting, and for a lot more, too; but no bullet's going to serve you well until you get out there and shoot it.

A relatively generic rifle is probably better for starting out, especially if you already have a high degree of familiarity with it; less to get acquainted with. You'll need your concentration to learn the match procedure/routine, trying to do that with an unfamiliar rifle will only complicate things. Remember, simple is better, getting your routine down to its simplest is a viable goal. Specialization comes later, after you have personal experience to guide your upgrades.

Shoot the 175 until it tells you need something better for something particular about what you're doing. If all your shooting is done from bench or prone, a long barrel should be preferable; the shorter barrels are more effective for position shooting, like sitting or kneeling, and especially for offhand.

Barrel length; use the longest barrel that doesn't get in the way of how you're shooting. Yes; it provides velocity, but velocity is no cure-all; and hotter loads will play havoc with the bore/throat. Better to run a milder load, and let the extra barrel length apply that load to get more speed without stressing that bore/throat into an early grave. Yes, maybe an extra 100fps will rescue a bad wind call now and then, but that hotter load will punish the bore/throat every single round you fire. IMHO, that's a bad cost/benefit ratio.

Greg