Beam vs. Digital scales

[andydrose72]

I keep seeing this same argument on here so I gotta ask. How long is it taking you guys with digital scales to produce 100 accurate charges? I have been using the same balance scale for about 15 years and it takes me roughly 1 hour to charge 100 rounds. What kind of time are you guys taking with digital scales assuming that accuracy and precision are the same between the two?

 

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I went from beam scales to digital, but then right back to beam. It took so long to get precision with the Lyman digital that I lost faith in its accuracy.

I now have a 505/Lyman beam scale and a cast iron (Redding, I think?) fluid-dampened scale. They both measure the same. 0.1grn is 0.1grn according to either of 'em!

Regards,

Josh

 

[Aimsmall55]

If you want "precision" with a digital, you need to look at the A&D FX120i It will weigh one kernal of stick powder. Also it measures to the hundredth ... Not the tenth. It's honestly the damnedest thing I've ever seen for 400$. Here's a few pics and the link

One kernel h1000

Here's the link : FX-120I - Cambridge Environmental Products Inc. Scientific Distribution Network - Laboratory Supplies, Scientfic Equipment

 

[MarshalTex]

I got a chance to shoot with the guy who holds/held the 200yd BR record with a 6mm BR from dallas area. I was floored when I watched him reload at the bench. No scale what so ever. He put his charge in out of a powder dump, based on feel and were the powder came up to in the case! WTF it made me question everything about scales.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Walt K]

Exactly what Aimsmall55 said. If you can still buy it for $400.00 jump on it.
I paid over $600.00 for mine and at the time I thought it was a good deal.
For $400.00 it's a steal. Believe us, it's accurate, fast, repeatable with minimal drift and has a 5 year warranty.
The only con is that you will have buy a dependable certification weight (100 grams) to calibrate it.
I purchased mine from Troemner. It's a class 1 weight. Expensive, $70.00 plus ship but it is necessary.
In the end I'm very satisfied with my setup.

 

[427Cobra]

Hmm hmm hmm hmm.........., and that's all I got to say about that.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Hmm hmm hmm hmm.........., and that's all I got to say about that.

LMAO!!! Come on... You got to hit em with your Prometheus

 

[Walt K]

Yes, Prometheus, the ultimate without a doubt but until then.

 

[Strykervet]

I have an RCBS dispenser and digital scale combo. I calibrate each time I turn it on, and check it from time to time against the beam scale, a 5-0-5. I like my loads dead on and I measure each and every load, pistol or rifle, and the combo will detect a discrepancy in the load. It even dispenses IMR 800x fairly well (it has a built in trickler function). From time to time, a load will be a 1/10 or so over, and I'll just dump a tad bit back and manually trickle the rest of that particular load. Depending on the powder, I have to do this never to about 1 in 30 loads at most. All in all, I'd say it takes about as much time to do it this way as it took to do it using a manual throw dispenser set short, a beam scale and manual trickler to top it off dead on. BTW, I've seen the Marine Marksmanship Unit, the guys that load their rounds, and they use the exact same RCBS equipment I use.

Where it saves time vs. doing it manually, is that you can do other things while it dispenses and measures, such as seating bullets and QC. I find it mostly a marginal time saver, but kind of like a second set of hands doing the powder and freeing up more time meanwhile to concentrate on consistency without taking up even more time. I have less potential mistakes using it this way too.

I imagine a digital scale only and manual trickler would take just about as much time as just a beam scale, as you still have to dispense and trickle. It's really the dispenser/trickler slaved to the scale that makes it all sing. IMO, anyway.

I understand there are maybe better models than the RCBS, but it does everything I need it to and I have little to no complaints, and I love the auto trickler function and under/over load detection. Their brass prep station is good time saver too.

 

[Walt K]

I throw my charges (currently Varget) with a Harrell's powder thrower then place the pan
on the A&D 120i and trickle with a Omega 2 speed powder trickler ( which is a outstanding trickler).
Goes fairly fast.

 

[Josh Smith]

Walt, that's how I do mine, only I use a Lee powder thrower and a cheap plastic trickler with the Lyman/Ohaus 505. I really love that digital setup, but man, I can't justify the expense. The Lee throws +/- 0.1 grain; is there really anything to be gained with a more expensive setup?

You see, I would like to justify such a purchase!

I'm also curious as to the benefits over a beam scale. The Lyman/Ohaus is perfectly dampened, and there's no waiting for the beam to stop swinging.

What made you go digital?

Regards,

Josh

 

[700sendero]

My gempro 250 will register 1 kernal of powder also...consistant...accurate...under $200....I guess if I had your guys money I would buy a $600 scale too....lmao!

 

[Aimsmall55]

Trust me.... It's a justifiable buy. I don't want this to be a "big dick" contest. I was just trying to help

 

[Aimsmall55]

It's 400$ btw

 

[jfseaman]

GemPro 250 is a good value for ME.

Beam scales have a couple of challenges that many forget.
1) Susceptibility to level. Of course this is an issue with all scales but ...
2) Air currents. Of course this is an issue with all scales but with a beam scale you have this big wing (the pan) out there and unless you put it 'under glass' it will never hold still. Digital would be 'with in a range' from the A/D pickup.

Digital scales have challenges to.
1) 'Static' electricity creates transient magnetic fields that effect 'readings'. I use static guard to overcome this.
2) They only 'display' within a range. They are of course 'digital' unless you have access to the programming you won't know if that last charge was 28.096 grs or 28.102. The digtal scale will always say 28.1, with a beam scale you 'interpreter' variables. Now is .006 of a grain going to effect your ES? Would you be more accurate than that with a beam? Hmmm.

 

[scudzuki]

My A&D FX-300i (just like the 120 but higher capacity) is faster than my Lyman-Ohaus beam.
It stabilizes way faster than the beam scale, in about 1 second.

Single kernel accuracy with zero drift, it is awesome.

Joe

 

[scudzuki]

GemPro 250 is a good value for ME.

Beam scales have a couple of challenges that many forget.
1) Susceptibility to level. Of course this is an issue with all scales but ...
2) Air currents. Of course this is an issue with all scales but with a beam scale you have this big wing (the pan) out there and unless you put it 'under glass' it will never hold still. Digital would be 'with in a range' from the A/D pickup.

Digital scales have challenges to.
1) 'Static' electricity creates transient magnetic fields that effect 'readings'. I use static guard to overcome this.
2) They only 'display' within a range. They are of course 'digital' unless you have access to the programming you won't know if that last charge was 28.096 grs or 28.102. The digtal scale will always say 28.1, with a beam scale you 'interpreter' variables. Now is .006 of a grain going to effect your ES? Would you be more accurate than that with a beam? Hmmm.

Maybe with an inexpensive strain gage balance, not true with a precision balance with a magnetic force restoration load cell. If Cambridge is still honoring that $400 price on the A&D FX-120i, jump on it. No drift, 1 second stabilization, .02 gr resolution which is less than 1 kernel of any extruded powder I've used, including Varget, I4895, I4007SSC, I7828, H4350, H4831, A4350.

Joe

 

[Walt K]

I also have the Gem Pro 250. Darn good scale for the money.
But it did tend to drift a bit more and be slower and not as repeatable as fast.
It's good but not as good as the A@D 120i.
I like the small size which allows me to place it in my reloading box
when I reload at the range.
For $400.00 I would pick the A@D instead but that's just me.

PS. I decided to go digital for the speed.

 

[scudzuki]

There is a rechargeable battery available for the FX but it's pricey and it hardly makes it a portable balance.

Within its limitations, the Gem Pro 250 does appear to be a good balance for the money.

Joe

 

[Aries64]

I keep seeing this same argument on here so I gotta ask. How long is it taking you guys with digital scales to produce 100 accurate charges? I have been using the same balance scale for about 15 years and it takes me roughly 1 hour to charge 100 rounds. What kind of time are you guys taking with digital scales assuming that accuracy and precision are the same between the two?

I let a Hornady Lock N' Load Digital Powder Dispenser measure and dispense the powder and trickle it. That works quite well, but double-checking the charges dispensed by the Lock N' Load on an RCBS 10-10 really helps with consistency. The time that the Lock N' Load takes to dispense the powder plus me manually weighing the charge on the 10-10 takes forever, but by doing this I've produced H4895-charged batches with extreme spreads of only 5 fps (over 10 shots with my PVM-08).

Two things about the Hornady: First, occasionally the dispensing tube will still be moving when the Hornady "beeps" (indicating that the target charge weight has been reached), and a stick or two of powder will fall into the cup. Sometimes the weight shown on the digital readout changes, but sometimes it doesn't (maybe the weight was on the edge). Whenever this happens I just toss the charge back into the reservoir and re-dispense. Secondly, placing a short section of plastic straw in the dispensing tube seems to to help trickle the powder with a bit more precision. I know the straw sounds ghetto (OK, maybe it is), but so far it' seems to work with H4895 and IMR4895 (stick powders).


Keith

 

[Walt K]

It's good but not as good as the A@D.
My first one (Gem Pro 250) went belly up after only 5 or 6 sessions.
Mailed it in and did receive a replacement promptly.
But even with the extra cost I'd go A@D.

 

[0311@LAR]

Chargemaster for $289 from Midsouth. It might not be as accurate as some of the stuff posted above, but it does a damn good job. I am also reasonably sure I will never be able to shoot the difference between what it weighs accurately and what some of the more sophisticated stuff does. I used to use a powder measure, throw a charge, then dump on a RCBS rangemaster 750 and trickle up to weight. I got pretty quick at it, but I was tedious. So I bought the chargmaster and never looked back.

 

[Captain Kirk]

I have used both digital and beam scales, right now I use a RCBS 10/10 beam for backup and a RCBS Chargemaster for the precision rifle loads. I also use a powder measure, its a cheap Lee unit, it gets used in the field for load development when I don't need to know what the charge weight is, just going for velocity and I check what the final dump weight was when I return home. I have found is the beam scale is the most accurate, I place a camera and monitor in front of the dial so you are always getting the same viewing angle and it takes less of the strain out of it.

With all that said, if you have a good load, +/- .1 gr should not make any difference in accuracy, ES or on target.

 

[damoncali]

If you're going to trickle every charge, it doesn't matter much what kind of scale you use - the slow part is trickling that last .2 grains in. But the digitals are much faster at the weighing part - my old Dillon takes about .5 seconds to 1 second to settle. Because of that, you can cut it a little closer on the powder measure (just chuck any overcharges and start over). So it helps. I wouldn't go back to my balance beam. It is annoying to have to check it for drift - typically my scale will need to be zeroed (just push the button) 2-3 times per hour when it drifts off by .1 grains.

Where a digital absolutely crushes a beam scale is in weighing things like bullets, cases, or loaded rounds. As a final OCD safety check, I like to weigh every round before it goes into the ammo box to verify that they all have powder. It's a breeze with a digital. I probably wouldn't do it with a beam scale.

Using check weights is also easier and faster. Just throw a weight on there and see if it's right - you don't have to reset the scale to your charge weight afterwards.

 

[AMG04]

Unless I spent a lot more money, I don't think I can get equal quality and precision when using a digital scale. I have recently went back to using the 5-0-5 scale with thrown, then trickled powder. This has proven the most accurate for me. Shot a 5 round string with a 0 standard deviation and the entire 10 round string ended up at 3 standards of deviation.

The electronic scale is great for measuring brass and H20 capacity along with weighing bullets, but when it comes to measuring powder I like the beam scale.

As for load time it takes me about an hour for a 50 round batch. Reloading is my way to unwind and relax, so I take my sweet time when in the loading room.


Cheers

 

[scudzuki]

It's good but not as good as the A@D.
My first one (Gem Pro 250) went belly up after only 5 or 6 sessions.
Mailed it in and did receive a replacement promptly.
But even with the extra money I'd go A@D.

I have 2 A&Ds, the FX and an older HR-120 (.0001 gram res) but I use the FX because it's so much faster and with some practice is just as accurate with extruded rifle powders.

The display is awesome, too, so easy on the eyes, and much less fatiguing than an LCD.

Joe

 

[Fuzzball]

"....it takes me roughly 1 hour to charge 100 rounds.'

Something is badly wrong with your technique or work flow path. With my beamer, I dispense low, trickle up and charge rifle cases to .1 gr in 15-20 seconds without hurrying.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

.

Where a digital absolutely crushes a beam scale is in weighing things like bullets, cases, or loaded rounds. As a final OCD safety check, I like to weigh every round before it goes into the ammo box to verify that they all have powder. It's a breeze with a digital. I probably wouldn't do it with a beam scale.

There you go, something Damon and I agree on!

On another note. I concur with the lab scales that Aimsmall has posted up. If it holds up to everyday use I will endorse it as "what you need". It certainly comes from the right source. If someone can confirm everyday use for more than a year then I will call it one HELL of a bargain, and the minimum electronic scale reccomended.

 

[rsplante]

I keep seeing this same argument on here so I gotta ask. How long is it taking you guys with digital scales to produce 100 accurate charges? I have been using the same balance scale for about 15 years and it takes me roughly 1 hour to charge 100 rounds. What kind of time are you guys taking with digital scales assuming that accuracy and precision are the same between the two?

Takes me about 1.5-2 hours, but I am using two digital scales. First I allow my RCBS Chargemaster to "throw" an approximate load, then I move it to my Sartorius GD-503 Magnetic Force Restoration scale where I trickle Varget with an Omega powder trickler https://www.storesonline.com/site/696296/product/T1378 so that I am within 1 kernel of Varget. Eventually I plan on replacing the Chargemaster with a simple powder measure since it is only getting me in the ballpark (I have found that between the 0.1 claimed resolution, and electronic drift, the Chargemaster can be off by as much as .2-.3gn. Due to the size of Varget kernels, I am not able to get much closer than +/-0.01gn, even though the GD-503 is accurate to .005gn.
Also, the Chargemaster is what is gumming up production. The GD-503 stabilizes within 3 seconds. Oh, two other things made me go with the Sartorius. One, I read that filtering on strain gauge electronic scales will often not recognize small differences in weight as you or the machine trickles. The Magnetic Force Restoration responds to everything (that's why it has a glass cage around the weighing area.) The other reason is that Sartorius stopped making them in May of 2013. When the existing stock is gone, that's it. Sartorius GD503-NTEP Class II legal for trade Carat Scale They must be getting low. In the month or two since I bought it, I just noticed that they have discontinued free shipping.

Sartorius Magnetic Scale Is Fast, Precise within AccurateShooter.com

 

[rsplante]

I let a Hornady Lock N' Load Digital Power Dispenser measure and dispense the powder and trickle it. That works quite well, but double-checking the charges dispensed by the Lock N' Load on an RCBS 10-10 really helps with consistency. The time that the Lock N' Load takes to dispense the powder plus me manually weighing the charge on the 10-10 takes forever, but by doing this I've produced H4895-charged batches with extreme spreads of only 5 fps (over 10 shots with my PVM-08).

Two things about the Hornady: First, occasionally the dispensing tube will still be moving when the Hornady "beeps" (indicating that the target charge weight has been reached), and a stick or two of powder will fall into the cup. Sometimes the weight shown on the digital readout changes, but sometimes it doesn't (maybe the weight was on the edge). Whenever this happens I just toss the charge back into the reservoir and re-dispense. Secondly, placing a short section of plastic straw in the dispensing tube seems to to help trickle the powder with a bit more precision. I know the straw sounds ghetto (OK, maybe it is), but so far it' seems to work with H4895 and IMR4895 (stick powders).


Keith

I read about the same McDonald's straw trick with the RCBS Chargemaster also. There's one in mine.

 

[rsplante]

Where a digital absolutely crushes a beam scale is in weighing things like bullets, cases, or loaded rounds. As a final OCD safety check, I like to weigh every round before it goes into the ammo box to verify that they all have powder. It's a breeze with a digital. I probably wouldn't do it with a beam scale.

+1 on the final verification. I had a near KABOOM and I always verify the final weight of each round now. I apparently had a light/no load which propelled the pill a short distance down the barrel. On the next round, click. I disassembled the upper receiver from the lower, saw nothing, reassembled and click. I scratched my head, disassembled again and looked down the barrel. Lo and behold, it was obstructed. I found that the next round was going within 0.25" of going into battery. If it had, instead of a click, I would have heard KABOOM, and would probably be missing a few fingers at the least. I ALWAYS verify the completed round weight now!

When I first reported that on this site, someone said there are two kinds of reloaders, those who have had a squib, and those that will.

 

[Josh Smith]

"....it takes me roughly 1 hour to charge 100 rounds.'

Something is badly wrong with your technique or work flow path. With my beamer, I dispense low, trickle up and charge rifle cases to .1 gr in 15-20 seconds without hurrying.

Hello,

I can see 1 hour for 100 rounds. It takes me 20 or 30 minutes for 20 rounds. (I do them in batches of 20 rounds as, if I mess up, I won't be pulling down more than 20 loaded rounds.)

Let me explain: First, I'm OCD. I don't trickle to within +/- .1 grain. The powder thrower is capable of throwing to within +/- .2 grains with Varget, and with anything spherical, it's not worth mentioning the variation between charges.

I trickle to the exact same amount each time, to the point I'll take individual grains of powder back out if I'm over. I happen to know that three lil' stick of Varget are approximately 0.1 grain, for example ... in most batches, anyway.

If I'm going to make regular ammo, say, equivalent to mass-produced commercial, I don't bother weighing it except as a safety check every fifth or tenth round. That's when I can go fast.

For me, however, handloading is a relaxing hobby and I have no reason to go fast.

Regards,

Josh

 

[J-ROD]

I started out with a stock beam scale, then went to a tuned m5 beam scale, auto trickler, webcam etc rig. Painful to set up every time (auto trickler was also difficult to keep consistent flowing) and i found that while the tuned scale was sensitive enough to see one kernel, it wasn't consistent, often varying over .1gn through the course of reloading. Then i bought a gempro. It's accurate but does drift, the problem is it is so slow to respond that it's a pain to trickle on.
I tried a CM, even tuned and straw modded it 's slow and i still double checked the dropped charges, taking extra time, as the CM is all over the place.
Enter the A&D scale, thanks to Aimsmall i bought one, WOW!! Using a method Jeff Rorer taught me using a lee scoop, i can load faster and more accurately than any other method. What makes this possible is the A&D's quick response time.
All of my previous stuff will be up for sale soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[Josh Smith]

J-Rod,

What's the webcam for?

Regards,

Josh

 

[J-ROD]

Beam vs. Digital scales

Model and price for what?
A&D is fx 300i and it's priceless lol!

I used the webcam (cheap ebay no software needed version) and fscamview program on my laptop to show beam scale parallax free and huge for accuracy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[Aimsmall55]

I started out with a stock beam scale, then went to a tuned m5 beam scale, auto trickler, webcam etc rig. Painful to set up every time (auto trickler was also difficult to keep consistent flowing) and i found that while the tuned scale was sensitive enough to see one kernel, it wasn't consistent, often varying over .1gn through the course of reloading. Then i bought a gempro. It's accurate but does drift, the problem is it is so slow to respond that it's a pain to trickle on.
I tried a CM, even tuned and straw modded it 's slow and i still double checked the dropped charges, taking extra time, as the CM is all over the place.
Enter the A&D scale, thanks to Aimsmall i bought one, WOW!! Using a method Jeff Rorer taught me using a lee scoop, i can load faster and more accurately than any other method. What makes this possible is the A&D's quick response time.
All of my previous stuff will be up for sale soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

Jrod, glad to see its working for ya. I am still in awe of how quick and repeatable mine is. For all you guys interested, they still have them listed at 400$. I still use a chargemaster to throw the powder but have the weight pan tared already. You'd be very surprised how much a chargemaster can be off if it starts drifting. Nothing against them as I have 4 of them, but for those who are into comp shooting and accurate charge weights are crucial, I would argue that you wouldn't come close to finding something = to it for 400$.
Everybody has their "acceptability" of price range, but as much as I spend on bullets, powder ect., in the long term scheme of things 400$ isn't that bad. For those of you who disagree I understand completely. To each his own. But the A&D does come with a 5 year warranty.

 

[BC 6.8]

My reloading setup is in my garage. Would a digital scale work well for me or should I stick with my beam scale?

 

[rsplante]

My reloading setup is in my garage. Would a digital scale work well for me or should I stick with my beam scale?

That might depend on your environment. If where you are in SC is anywhere near as hot and humid as Houston, I would think it would be a problem for anything electronic. I keep my GD503 inside where it is air-conditioned 24/7/365. Just kidding, we get 2 weeks of decent weather each year.

 

[Randfal]

I have a RCBS auto dispenser and if it failed tonight, I would replace it tomorrow. I only use it for extruded powder and for weighing my spherical power. I use a Redding Br powder thrower for my spherical powder and once set, it throws loads within .1 grain all night long. It's very quick that way. And now for my favorite argument..... for the record I'll use data from Hodgdons website for 168gr SMK and Varget powder. Min load is 42grs, max is 46grs. That's a 4.0 grain span. Velocity listed is 2731 max and 2520 min. That's a span of 211 fps. Divide that 211 by 4.0 grains; That will give you 52.75fps per grain. Now divide that by 10 and you have 5.275 fps velocity change per .10 grain change. 5 fps slower if you threw .1 grain light and 5 fps faster if you threw .1 grain heavy. I'm not bothering to chase that holy perfect grain count anymore. It's not worth the brain damage. If you can get within a .1+- grain variance, you are good to go, period.

 

[rsplante]

I have a RCBS auto dispenser and if it failed tonight, I would replace it tomorrow. I only use it for extruded powder and for weighing my spherical power. I use a Redding Br powder thrower for my spherical powder and once set, it throws loads within .1 grain all night long. It's very quick that way. And now for my favorite argument..... for the record I'll use data from Hodgdons website for 168gr SMK and Varget powder. Min load is 42grs, max is 46grs. That's a 4.0 grain span. Velocity listed is 2731 max and 2520 min. That's a span of 211 fps. Divide that 211 by 4.0 grains; That will give you 52.75fps per grain. Now divide that by 10 and you have 5.275 fps velocity change per .10 grain change. 5 fps slower if you threw .1 grain light and 5 fps faster if you threw .1 grain heavy. I'm not bothering to chase that holy perfect grain count anymore. It's not worth the brain damage. If you can get within a .1+- grain variance, you are good to go, period.

I hear what you're saying; however, I also have a Chargemaster and that .1gn figure is on a good day, not to mention drifting with time. I use my Chargemaster as the first step before feeding it to a Sartorius GD503 Magnetic Force Restoration scale (Yes, I'm CDO, that's like OCD but the letters are in alphabetical order, as they should be.) And I have seen variations of as much as .3gn low or .2gn high from the Chargemaster after 70 rounds. Now you might be talking an ES of 25 by your numbers. And that is taking Hodgens word for it, plus assuming that it is linear. My experience with load development, ten rounds each in .5gn steps (23-25.5gn Varget, 77gn SMK) resulted in velocity changes of 27, 77, 61, 44, and 47fps. over an Oehler 35P proof chronograph. (at those velocities, Oehler claims a 4fps accuracy rate) In the worst case, that is 15.4fps per .1gn, and in the best case it is 5.4fps per .1 gn. Just depends on how CDO one is. I hear you about it not being worth your trouble, but the Chargemaster could conceivably give you an ES of 77 just due to inaccuracy and drift. I'm hoping to someday get an ES in single digits (best so far is an ES of 12 and SD of 6).