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Gunsmithing Gunsmiths too busy, too "special", or what?

dondlhmn

RLO
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 29, 2013
130
0
Reno, NV, USA for now
Am I the only one that is finding that MANY gunsmiths/gunsmithing companies and/or gun part suppliers are extremely poor at returning emails or phone calls? I am attempting to get a build done and have pretty much narrowed the field down to five different "reputable" suppliers and/or gunsmiths that I would like to involve in this project and have sent multiple Emails and left multiple voice messages, but so far only two (2) of them (Barrel maker---Krieger) had the common courtesy to return my call or email...and the guy I spoke with told me they are 11 MONTHS :eek: behind on sending barrels out the door. (I did, however, find one of their distributors that happened to have the barrel I wanted in stock and bought that!!) The second one was my chosen synthetic stockmaker, where I talked to the guy that founded the company! The remaining 3 have not called or Emailed me back at all....not one attempt to get back to me out of that bunch of 3.

SO..my question to all of you is: Are gunsmiths typically just very lacking in things like social skills and common courtesy? Or what? Are they all (the ones with decent reputations, especially) too busy? Too disorganized? Too poorly managed and/or financed to staff appropriately? Too "special"? Maybe they are accustomed to talking out their *sses or is it that they are advertising when they can't handle what the advertising produces?

Granted, if I could find a good, careful, precise, guy anywhere near me (like within a two or three hour drive of Reno, NV....anyone "know a guy"?), I would take it all (now that I have a stock, barrel and an "donor gun" action)...... I would take it all to him/her and have the work done there...Hey, I understand that everyone that now is a "reputable", "known", "big name" gunsmith wasn't born that way and that there HAS TO BE "up-and-comers" out there that are capable of great work and I would LOVE TO give one of them the task!

If things keep going along at this rate, I will likely NEVER get the project off of the ground or will, out of frustration, take it to the first 'smith that tells me they will machine it/screw it all toghether and just TAKE MY CHANCES!! Yeah...I understand that you are often "taking your chances" of getting your equipment "mis-appropriated" or your money ripped of by taking or sending it to a so-called "reputable" 'smith and have heard/read some real horror stories in regards that stuff, but hey....nothing ventured, etc...etc.....
 
I can recommend Phoenix Custom Rifles as well, they are extremely friendly and provide superb service. During my build I received calls from PCR or my calls to them were answered when I called and dealt with punctually. Likewise, AJ at Bighorn actions called me back after I had sent him an email and left a phone message. It took a day or two but I did hear from him and he spent a good deal of time happily answering my questions or telling me things about the action that only the manufacturer can tell you. KRG whom I got my chassis from also is very good at getting back to customers and providing customer support, they are also here on the Hide and answer posts.

So to answer your question, I think some gunsmiths/ product manufacturers are extremely busy with work, some are socially inept, some are arrogant, some are great people, some are very responsive to customers, some provide timely work, some take your money and take forever to deliver, some are consummate professionals. In other words, they are human. I think that forums like these and word of mouth help identify which gunsmiths/product manufacturers are the best and worst to deal with. I will also say that I would not be surprised that at some point a typically "good" gunsmith/product manufacturer gets a few bad experiences attributed to them at some point,be it a bad day or a customer who's a nagging asshole that they got fed up with.

So with all of that said, with where you are located, I suggest you contact Brad/Keith at Phoenix Custom Rifles and arrange to send your hardware to them for the build. I know you will not be disappointed with their work. Likewise there are other good smiths who frequent these forums or who others might mention they received good service from and perhaps one of them is closer to you so rest assured, those mentioned here are known entities and you are not taking a gamble with your parts or the work being done.
 
Depending on what you're wanting done, JD Thomas at highspeedshootingsystems.com up in Yakima, Wa is great to deal with, has reasonable turn around, and has been good at answering messages. You can read his bio on his site, but he does solid work at a fair price.
Feel free to PM me if you need any further contact info for him.
 
One of the biggest problems I run into as a working gunsmith (general gunsmithing/one man shop/teenage helper) is there just aren't enough hours in the day to handle all the work. I'm taking a break from it right now to "calm down" from an aggravated customer who drove 3 hours from California without calling ahead of time to pick up the bluing jobs I'm were doing for him. Let me illustrate what I know all the guys you're calling and emailing have happening...

I'm in the shop getting ready for the final cuts on a 300 Weatherby Magnum I'm rebarreling. I rented the reamer the day the barrel came in but now I am in the 5 dollars a day penalty zone because with the opening of Dove season I just can't get to the lathe for more than a couple minutes at a time. So there I am, got some Zakk Wylde playing I'm checking headspace and... this customer who decided to drive from California now would like me to stop what I'm doing and install the new furnature he bought for the shotgun I reblued. So my Weatherby guy and every other job I had planned to do today isn't going to happen. AND, in the end Mr. California decided to do what I suggested last week when we spoke on the phone....let me blue the receiver once more because I didn't like the color. So now two hours later his gun is where I had it before, nothing else has happened to the Weatherby, I'm almost settled down enough to grab lunch and try to get back to work.

Days like this happen regularly. They happened at the last two shops I worked at. Taking phone calls with the same stupid questions over and over. The customer who INSISTS on speaking directly with the gunsmith about his project. So let's stop all work, take a few minutes and talk to Mr. Insistent only to find out he not only doesn't have the gun he's asking about but really he was looking for a 5-40 screw...no money will be made from this job.

SO...maybe the gunsmiths who don't have "common courtesy" really just don't have time to email with you about your job because they have plenty of work already. Kreiger has people who answer the phones and emails, it's their only job. That's why they responded to you. Honestly, if you emailed me twice within a week asking about my production times or when I could do your job I would reply with an excessively long build time just so you would go somewhere else. Yes, I need the money; no thank you, I don't need the headache.

You should also realize that by purchasing all the components of the build you've taken away a lot of the money a small time or one man shop would make on your gun. I want the labor for building your rifle but I also want the 25% mark up on parts. At the very least I'd want to get all those builds finished first, then go to a labor only build once I was in standby mode again.

I want as much business as I can take. I'm patient and willing to wait for obsolete parts, I'll hand carve a stock if you need me to but I expect the customer to have some of this patience also. When I run into someone who is unreasonable and thinks that the squeakiest wheel will get the oil every time I do the same thing I do with high maintenance women; I find another one. This is a simple lesson in supply and demand. Open your local phone book and see how many gunsmiths are in your town. Then go see how many mechanics, cabinet makers, lawyers, doctors etc are listed? It's simple numbers. There are more guns and customers than there will ever be gunsmiths.
 
I think your answer to barrel lead time also answers your main question, where do you think all those barrels are going?

The guys that do a good job are getting them all and they are just busy as hell. Mark Gordon is a good friend and it seems he's always working 6 or 7 days and until 7 o'clock every day. You know what he's doing most of that time now? Answering emails.

Gunsmithing is a tough thing to do to a level of workmanship like SAC for example, and also be able to grow the business. Because of how hard it is to find help from someone who is capable of doing the same quality of work that customers have come to expect from the original Smith, and without him watching over their shoulders the whole time.

Another thing is you can't just hire some schmo to answer phones and emails for you because the questions are always quite technical.

This is not an excuse for guys out there not answering new customer calls or emails, those guys are probably either what you envision, "too special," or just so busy and can't get the help they really need around the shop.

I only take the work load I can handle in under two weeks, but I have the luxury of working a full time job and just doing rifle builds as a hobby on the side to help pay for my own gun addiction.

Good luck on your quest, try to keep patient and you'll find the shop you're looking for, don't settle for the ones you hear horror stories about, there's plenty of good shops out there.

Galaxy S3 on tapatalk
 
Hello,

I divide my day:

1. From 2pm until 7pm, I answer emails and make shipping labels.

2. From 7pm to 2-4am I spend in the shop. I work at night because my wife works during the day, and there are less distractions besides.

3. When I come home, I do ordering until 6am, when it's time for my wife to go to work and get my boy ready for the bus.

4. I catch some sleep from about 8am to 1pm or 2pm. If I need more sleep, I catch up when I can.

In all this, I have to find time to work on prototypes. As well, the training I've had is more along the lines of the 1911 and .22 rifles. I fell into the C&R circuit almost by accident, and while I really like it, I'd love to eventually start working on those firearms.

I do not have employees because I'd have to raise prices. As well, as was mentioned, the questions asked tend to be technical and a regular secretary would take too long to train, even if he or she had the interest. This means I answer all the questions -- and I try to answer in detail.

I have folks get mad at me because I take a couple days to answer, instead of a couple hours. If an email needs research, then it will take a couple days. Or, if I'm just really busy in the shop making sights and triggers and whatever, I have to get product out.

To do a job right takes time. Most older folks understand this. I remember, when I was a kid, looking at ads in Boys' Life. They'd ask us to allow 4-6 weeks or even 6-8 weeks for delivery.

When the internet came along, it was expected that work be completed in a matter of days. It's simply not like that with proper gunsmithing. Proper gunsmithing takes time. Bluing using a warm bath can take a couple weeks. You blue, card it off, blue again, card of again, until it looks right.

That's the difference between an old Model 10 or Model 19 S&W revolver most firearms being turned out today. The former is deep and lustrous; the newer firearms are flat black.

As well, rotary tools have their places -- but in my opinion, they need to be used judiciously and sparingly. They get out of control easily and will gouge things better not gouged.

Of handheld tools, the best work is done with hand files and stones.

If a job functions well, looks good on the outside, but looks like hell on the inside, it's a bad job, in my opinion. Someone proud of his work will make sure it all looks right and functions well.

Those are just some observations and opinions; take them for what they cost you.

Regards,

Josh
 
I have been very pleased with PCR. I was very happy with the rifle they built for me. There was an issue with the parts I supplied that resulted in some additional work on their end. They didn't charge me for the additional work. That's my idea of great customer service. They are also good about responding to emails and phone calls.
 
You can always buy a high end factory rifle or a rifle ready to ship from Surgeon or GAP. If you want something custom built, especially with vendor supplied parts, be prepared to wait.
 
Mark Gordon is my smith. He is busy for a reason. I have as minimal a contact as is necessary. Because if he is working on my barreled action and not answering my constant barrage of emails, I should just forget about the build and shoot something else. It is important to be succinct in your communication from the drop and to supply as many parts as you can scrounge. Then it is just waiting for feedback on progress or, even better, inevitable "we are done" email so I can go shoot something new.
 
Depending on what you're wanting done, JD Thomas at highspeedshootingsystems.com up in Yakima, Wa is great to deal with, has reasonable turn around, and has been good at answering messages. You can read his bio on his site, but he does solid work at a fair price.
Feel free to PM me if you need any further contact info for him.

+1 for JD. I have had him do a bunch of work for me. Everything from full custom builds to re-barreling, to barrel threading, etc. etc. etc. His communication is great, his turnaround is the best I have seen, and most important, his stuff plain shoots...
 
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Yes, to some, they are "special", God forbid, you mention a name, as their fan boys will curse your entire family! To others, they are not, as they know of other gun smiths, good ones, JD, and LongRifles, Phoenix Custom Rifles have all been mentioned on this thread as rifle smiths that not only do first class work, but also understand the reason they have work is that they have customers. Why can some turn out world class work and answer e-mails, while others can not? That is the true question. My guess is some believe they are "special", others demonstrate how good they really are, by the quality of their work and the way they run their shops.
 
I've dealt with a few really good gunsmiths on custom builds and I don't mind the wait. However, if the build is going to take four years and I'm initially told 18 months, I am about as amused as I am when I wait 90 minutes later than my appointment at the doctors office. If it's going to take four years, tell me that up front.
 
I have been trying to give my money away to multiple gunsmiths on builds with no return calls. I must have called 10-12 smiths about building a 6.5 creedmoor but none of them will call/email me back with a quote.
 
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Given todays gun climate, any gunsmith not extremely busy only has himself to blame! Walk ins and phone calls kill a smith's time.

I'm going to see a smith tomorrow morning to have mercury recoil reducers put in guns that were made with too light of barrels, and magazine work. Yes, the guy will make money, and a couple of customers happy, but I know he could accomplish a shit ton more manning a machine and turning out guns.

After watching Chad Dixon completely finish a gun in less than 8 hours, and find it shoots under 1/4 moa, waiting anymore than 1 month for a build would have me doubling up on my blood pressure meds.
 
Alot of smiths are one off or have very limited personnel. When they are yaking on the phone, or constanly eyballing their smart phone to return messages, then they are not working on guns. Some take a couple days to get bac to you. If you don't get a response, try again.

I use a smaller gunsmith who will take the time to talk to you if he is near a phone, but I only call when absolutely necessary or when he wants me to. As I said, when he is yaking it up or typing an email, his lathe is not running...

He is what I call a "Full service" gunsmith. He can build you a tactical precision rifle or he can build you a $7,000 presentation grade bolt rifle with fine wood and mile deep bluing.

I would just try to contact your preferred smiths again. Give them some time.
 
Try Mike at Controlled Chaos Arms. He has done a lot of work for me and very happy with ALL of it. He isn't real good at returning phone calls, but is good at Emails from his Website. Check out his website, worth a tour. He has some great looking women with guns on it. That's enough to sell me, Just kidding.

Controlled Chaos Arms
 
I think if I were a gunsmith, I would charge like a lawyer.

So much for certain work, with a certain amount of phone and email time in the quote, then additional for extra phone or email time. :)

But Mark at Short Action Customs was very good about returning emails or having someone in the shop answer. I only had a bolt knob done, but was happy with the entire process. So they will be on the very short list for any other work and my next build.
 
Call/email Moon at Crescent Customs. Without going into details he took care of me when my builder wouldn't return my calls regarding warranty work (second time/same problem). Naturally going with moon I didn't have a warranty but he had it back in the mail the second day after he received it. He even shipped it prior to me paying for it. And with me that kind of service earned him a generous tip with his payment. He even checked up with me later to ask how my rifle was performing. Moon earned my respect, the other builder, well.....
 
It takes my Smith about two weeks to return an email but he always does. Sometimes he may not be answering his phone. He is busy because he is good and he stands behind his work. I would rather wait on him getting free to take care of me than go to someone I don't know.
 
As with any trade or skill, there are a lot of potential customers out there who are merely just asking technical questions and seeking advice to try and decide what and if they will do anything. After picking brains, these "customers"will have learned a lot and will say "Thanks" .....and that's about it! Often they move onto the next smith to learn more or seek validation of what they have already heard and learned. It is VERY time consuming. Sure there are a lot of customers who are serious about their project, but keep in mind that for every phone call or email a smith gets, there are 5 more calls or emails that amount to nothing. This requires a lot of time and patience.

Very often, a really good smith that has time to blab on the phone with you, will have that time because he lacks in marketing skills or social graces. I have a smith who is highly skilled and does GREAT work and always does a 1 week turnaround for me because of these other short comings. I'm sure if he acted friendly and was willing to give folks the time of day, he'd be keeping much busier.
 
There is another place to consider Griffin & Howe, Griffin & Howe They can repair just about anything, their work is beautifully finished and can build tactical as well as sporting arms. This is a real business, very well funded, well run, responsive and respectful to their customers. The place and people are great. Give them a try, you will like the results! If you can visit their gun room your in for a treat of a lifetime!

merlinn
 
The problem is finding someone that really knows there stuff to answer the phone, but then if he really knows his stuff, you need him in the back helping with builds.
 
I think your answer to barrel lead time also answers your main question, where do you think all those barrels are going?

The guys that do a good job are getting them all and they are just busy as hell. Mark Gordon is a good friend and it seems he's always working 6 or 7 days and until 7 o'clock every day. You know what he's doing most of that time now? Answering emails.

Gunsmithing is a tough thing to do to a level of workmanship like SAC for example, and also be able to grow the business. Because of how hard it is to find help from someone who is capable of doing the same quality of work that customers have come to expect from the original Smith, and without him watching over their shoulders the whole time.

Another thing is you can't just hire some schmo to answer phones and emails for you because the questions are always quite technical.

This is not an excuse for guys out there not answering new customer calls or emails, those guys are probably either what you envision, "too special," or just so busy and can't get the help they really need around the shop.

this is pretty close to what i experience...

i must admit, i can't get everything done in one day that i'd like. i simply can't. when you're a larger shop, personnel and organization are tough. when you're a one man shop, you have to do everything. ...and i mean everything. i find myself somewhere in the middle...

an average day for me starts at 5AM all week. i can't take off saturdays or sundays... i go out and start up the shop and work until 6:30 by myself. i typically do billing and open up the mail from the previous day, and write checks, etc. i go back into the house before 7 to get my daughter up, brush her hair, etc. and get her ready for baby school and then take her into town. i'm back by 7:30 and continue with electronic items - emails, forum posts, adding content to the facebook page, working on articles and help questions for customers and gun geeks. by 9AM Dave, Paul, and our part time guys (occasionally) are at work and rolling. i can't allow anything out of the shop i wouldn't be impressed to own myself, so there is plenty of help and oversight throughout the day. i wear a portable head set so i can literally talk to customers while i work. when folks call in with cc information for orders, i have to drop what i'm doing and log into our online system, take their cc information, run it through, and provide them a receipt both from our cc service, and then from our business system showing a 'paid' receipt. most all want it emailed, so then we need to do that. sometimes i stop for lunch, most times not. breaks? don't get them... the guys do, and i want them to take a few minutes away to visit, joke, etc. or they'll be uptight and stressed, and i don't want that for them. they work better and are happier when they aren't burdened with extra problems and can step back for a few moments throughout the day.

i'm taking care of walk ins, and handling their questions, comments, and concerns, while trying to balance the limited time i can spend with them as i try not to neglect the work i already have setting in front of me. time to lay down some cerakote, and while it's curing, i have time to mix up batch and skim bed three rifles, i put them away, and stone a 1911, work over the sear and hammer, and hand it off to paul for cerakote prep, then answer some more calls, etc. all the while i have emails coming in, shop calls going to voice mail, and calls i missed on my personal cell phone (of which many customers have). i transcribe all the messages to text (with an app so it is fast and easy) and it prints out. i grab the print out throughout the day and i'm calling those people back right down the line with my head set on as i work on projects, pass work along, inspect work, and diagnose failures. there are times that machine noise, etc. simply won't allow me to do that of course, so i miss some that way as well.

couple that with the fact i'm the complaint department, human resources department, marketing manager in charge of website content, scheduling our classes, marketing our product on facebook, twitter, linkedin, and youtube, as well as the many forums we sponsor like the hide (of course), etc., but i'm also the shipping and receiving clerk, billing agent, order entry and restocking attendant, and general bad guy to the help... lol. i'm sure i missed some things, but you get the picture. my daughter comes home around 5 and by that time the guys in the shop are leaving. she and i visit as she pounds stuff with little hammer beside me at the bench and we visit for a while. she heads in the house and i come in somewhere between 7 & 9 depending on what needed to be finished. i try to cut saturdays and sundays off by lunch time every chance i get, but here i am at 8am on sunday... been out here since 4:40am and i'll be here long past lunch today. that's the job... add bullshit paperwork to the state, the state department, the atf, the irs, remitting sales tax, annual reporting, audits, internal audit trail reviews, etc. and your time can really get snatched up...

it is important you all don't see my description above as a complaint. it isn't. it simply is the way small business works. you can apply this to gunsmithing, plumbing, hauling rock, or widget building. i enjoy doing great work. i am happy with the reflection of my customers as they see the work i/we put into their firearm needs. we're not afraid to charge for what we do, as we do a great job and when we exceed your expectations, we have every intention of being compensated well. i genuinely feel terrible when i know i haven't contacted somebody back in a timely fashion. things move pretty quickly around our shop, so i sometimes misplace a note, or call a guy back and he returns my call without a message, thus i forget that his missed call was a call to me for a call back to him, etc.

i work my butt off to make sure i respond back as quickly as possible. why? because that's what i'd want if i was on the other end. i can't speak for the other smiths, but i truly believe nobody aims to neglect a customer. sometimes things fall between the cracks, but that is really not an excuse. work harder, and work smarter...

the interesting things about smiths and what they do is this... the people, suppliers, and vendors we deal with on a daily basis RARELY accommodate our needs. almost never... they don't answer the phone consistently, they don't respond to emails quickly, they don't adhere to pricing quotes often, they NEVER make delivery dates they provide, and often give us any number of bullshit problems to conquer once the late product finally arrives... we get patterned with this behavior and have to fight with all our being to resist doing to our customers (the end user) what we experience 50 times a day. there can be six layers of middle men as a piece of metal is cast, then bought and machined, then bought and plated, then bought and distributed, then distributed and shipped to me, but when i don't get it installed and done quickly for my customer, i'm where the buck stops. that's the gig, and i signed on for it. so the fact that five other entities completely out of my control shape my destiny is tough damned luck. i'm accountable to my customer as the end user and i know i'll catch some heat from time to time...

smithing requires concentration, so i can only do the 'talk on the phone while working' thing while i'm working on certain projects. attention to detail isn't something you can really do while doing another thing simultaneously. thus, the demands on your 'daylight' time are rough. i've had customers as recently as a few days ago, send me an email at 8PM, then call the shop at 9PM (one hour later) and mention that they hadn't gotten a return correspondence from me yet. i want to respond as quickly as possible, but not only do i not want to do that after supper, i think it is a bad idea for me to start. i know my shop is located a whopping 25 yards from my house, but i have to disengage from business from time to time or i'd go nuts. besides, to be frank, my wife and daughter are more important. if you want a good smith or a good employee working on your stuff, you want a person who is well adjusted at home and has their priorities straight too. i try like hell to get folks called back within 48 hours or less but i've been burned down on forums when i haven't sent a return email within a few hours. sometimes in a fast paced world, we have to take a step back and chill...

smithing is a tough game, but a rewarding one for me. i only hope to attain some honest reflection of my shortcomings, correct them as best i can, bolster my good attributes and seek to continually go above and beyond for my customers. that, an occasional miracle, and some latitude from my customers, and we'll all be in tall cotton...

i hope my post doesn't come off as anything but an insight. i don't want the OP or anyone else to suffer a true lack of customer appreciation. some of us simply do a better job than others with customer care. i hope to take ours to the next level, and the next level after that. i'm proud of what we get done, but we have a long way to go to get where i'd like to be. thanks for your patience with CCA, and if your smith is worth it, be honest with him/her and extend it to them. i hope they reciprocate with integrity and the willingness to work hard for you.

~michael
 
Michael,
THAT has got to be one of the best insights into what you guys deal with I have ever seen all in one place.
Thanks for clueing a lot of us in on what is probably the average day for most smiths.
 
Call/email Moon at Crescent Customs. Without going into details he took care of me when my builder wouldn't return my calls regarding warranty work (second time/same problem). Naturally going with moon I didn't have a warranty but he had it back in the mail the second day after he received it. He even shipped it prior to me paying for it. And with me that kind of service earned him a generous tip with his payment. He even checked up with me later to ask how my rifle was performing. Moon earned my respect, the other builder, well.....
I sent Tim a box of parts yesterday- barrel, replacement bolt, barrel. He returns phone calls, is pleasant and professional, and seems eager to get at a job. But I also wish him the best and hooe one day he will be a bit too busy to return my calls immediately. Maybe he will have a call screener to answer questions and take down build changes. Anyway, the man seems gtg to me. I will probably have another barreled action job on its way to him next month.
 
The subject of supply and demand with custom gun builders always interests me because I'm a gunsmithing student and I'm also an accountant.

It amazes me when I hear guys running small shops complaining about all the customer demand they can't handle because the solution is fairly simple. Gradually raise your prices until your customer demand falls to a level you can handle. Then you stay busy and you get paid to your maximum potential for the work you can handle.
 
I'm one of those who has all his own parts supplied to the builder. Now this may cut down on the final build cost(which I hope) but it also is what my builder preferred. My builder has a strong interest in longrange rifles and clone builds and while they are not known for doing these they are wanting to expand into this arena from their other work they are famous for. Nonetheless at the moment they didn't want to be bothered by having to order the parts so I did so myself. This worked best for me as well because I wanted a specifically older date remington action rather than any of the less desirable new production actions; and my stock is unique as its one that I modified myself and it also is no longer in production, so again I was happy to be told to supply my own parts. So the wait time for me though has been quite long and my builder still isn't ready to start my build. I contacted this smith about 2 years ago inquiring about a build. I than made a firm request to have them do the build for me last summer but they weren't ready for me and I was still working on the stock than but had the other parts in hand. My builder said they possibly would be ready to start my build last January. I may have naivly thought they were ready to gear up for me so I ask if it was ok to ship them my parts before the holidays rolled in and they were happy to accept them. Waited through the spring and another summer and they are still finishing other work and not ready for me. The word now is they maybe will be ready to go on my build in a few months. I trust this builder is a good guy and I do believe they are super busy, and I still think they are a good choice for the build since they demonstrated a strong interest in clone builds and getting the details correct as well as building very accurate rifles, so I still am happy to stick with this builder. What concerns me is a few things: my base parts are unique and I'd hate to have them get lost(lnock on wood) as they are irreplacable, was it a mistake to send the parts over to them so early? My name is on all the boxes I hope that until the build starts that everything stay in the boxes unopened and that they are stored away in a place to not get lost or stollen. I'm also concerned if this builder considers my work always back of the line priority behind other work or is there a strict schedule? I understand some folks put military and LEO orders ahead of "jo-schmo" oders I'm ok with this but to a point, if my build gets put on the back burner constantly so that I'm waiting a good three years before work even starts, that I feel is too long and I would request my parts back. Is this unreasonable or do custom builds take on average 2 or more years?
 
Thanks Michael for your description of your work, insightfull is an understatement! I appreciate how busy the business really is but your description shows that its even more busy than I thought!
I'm amased by your description of your day, and if a smith doesn't get back to me until a week later I'm fine with that as long I know my build is in the schedule the same as everyone else and not being pushed off in favor of other work! I like the person who is able to get me a decent quote and the guy who is honest with the time quote. Either of these I'm ok with getting over and its assinine for anyone to treat a quote as anything but an estimate that maybe more or less what the true final cost is. But it is what it is, a quote and a quote is important for the everyday guy who also is just trying to stick within budget on everything. Its not that the average schmo isn't willing to pay for good work but the average schmo has to plan for future costs the same as everyone else who runs a business so its good business to give quotes to customers!
 
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2 years or more with you supplying all the needed parts? Yeah, IMO, thats too long and unacceptable unless the builder told you it would be that long up front.

Sorry edited out all the info I already gave in previous peragraph.
I'll just say I wanted to give my builder the benifit of the doubt but thinking about things more its obvious I'm being a quite naive rather than respectful. I greatly respect the small business owner and a gunsmith who specialises in custom work is one of the busiest small business people around. But I'm not willing to reach Jannuary 2014 to than have my builder tell me they won't be ready to start my build until next summer! I need to get a no-BS assesment because it sounds like from my latest email this guy is busier than he was last year when he estimated he'd be ready for me and wasn't! He mentioned the word hopefully when he was more confident last year, and he now talks about expanding his shop. This may all be true again giving him the benifit of doubt, but my guess is the rifle work is second to the other work he does.
 
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I am in the process of having my first custom build done. I started this process back at the beginning of March. My situation was different than most probably, because I wasn't really planning on having a rifle built when I started all of this. I had gone to my gunsmith to have him install a Rem 700 barreled action into a JP Enterprises AMCS and install a Jewell trigger on it. I had no idea how to do any of that when I went to him. Him and I have a good laugh about that every now and then because I can easily do all of those things on my own today. I was also taking a Win M70 300 Win Mag to him to discuss accurizing it. I went to him because he was referred by several people that all said he would be willing to answer questions and explain things to me. He let me look over his shoulder while installing the trigger and chassis and answered a ton of questions. I was pretty green and my knowledge was limited. But he took the time to help me learn and didn't treat me like I was an idiot for not knowing a lot of things yet. This is rare. I don't think many gunsmiths will do this, and I completely understand why. At the time though, I didn't really know how big of a deal that was. I was also going to be new to reloading, and he advised me against getting into a belted mag to start with, and let me know it was much easier and cost effective to have work done to a Rem 700 than the Win M70. We discussed the possibility of a build, and I went home to think about it.

I called the next day and told him I wanted to have a rifle built. At his guidance, I decided on a the 300 WSM instead. I was having the rifle built for an elk hunt, but since i didn't have another long range rifle, I wanted it built as a quasi-hunter/quasi-long range target rifle. He tried to accomodate me on that, but over time I have learned that you can't have the best of both worlds with that kind of build. You should really get one or the other. Yet, he was willing to help me get what I thought I wanted. And that was also an issue....I didn't know what I wanted. So he walked me through the process. I am very thankful for this, because it led me to start reading snipershide more. I basically camped out on the website for a few months every evening and during breaks at work trying to soak up every piece of knowledge I could. Since then I have bought a couple of used semi-customs on snipershide and learned more about what I do and don't like/want. We've had to wait much longer for most of the parts than anticipated. The stock was supposed to be delivered in June. We are still awaiting its arrival. The action was supposed to be delivered in May and we didn't get it until late July. Because of this, the finish date is obviously delayed. We ended up looking at other options/configurations since I needed to get the rifle by the end of the summer so I could have at least 1 month with it prior to going on the hunt. Sometime in August the elk hunt got cancelled, so I didn't need the hunter/long range set up. I chose to go with a pure long range target shooter type set up. We are still waiting on some parts, and last week I changed my mind and decided I wanted a true hunting set up. So we're going to do that. My gunsmith hasn't complained about it at all, and I haven't complained about the delays.

I have a much better understanding now of what these guys deal with. I had the same attitude as the OP before getting into this. Dealing with guys like me is what can really slow a gunsmith down. Now that I realize this, I have a different approach. I never did bombard him with emails and phone calls though, but he's always answered them in a timely manner and never left me wondering what the heck is going on. I'm very much looking forward to getting my rifle when it's all said and done, and I've already purchased a Stiller Spectre action and researching which cartridge I'm having built next. The next time though, I will know exactly what I want going into it, will put my order in, ship him my parts, and will not contact him unless he calls me. I also have a Rem 700 action, and I could send that to Chad Dixon and have the entire rifle back pretty quick, but I'm loyal to Russell at this point. I sincerely appreciate all the time he's spent educating me on the process, and in my opinion, that goes a long ways.

If you're looking for a reputable builder that will answer your emails, phone calls, and questions, and build your rifle in a timely manner, I highly recommend Russell Banks at Scout Supply Company. Do a search on this website and you'll find nothing but good things about him.
 
Sounds like on the one side, common courtesy is lacking (no matter HOW busy you are, especially if you are in a "service" business, which GUNSMITHING is) calls need to be taken and returned....even if it does take a couple of days...but WEEKS? NO F'n WAY!!

On the other side of the coin, I'm sure there are guys that want a gun built that are ROYAL pains in the *ss, don't have a clue what they want and even after getting together with the smith and agreeing on parts, prices, etc. would take up half of a 'smith's time if he would let them. There is some common sense needed here.

Like someone already said somewhere "Common courtesy isn't all that COMMON any more, nor is COMMON SENSE."
 
I would hope that knowing what you want ahead of time is helpful, however I know a few folks who actually enjou educating and helping someone figure out what they want. But once you know what you want I think it makes the smith's job easier to commit to your chosen build. Second I would think a price and time estimate is also common sense though some smiths maybe don't want to ever give a single quote. I understand that final cost will not match the quote exactly but a good smith knows what time/labor/parts/payroll costs for most jobs that they can make a good quote ahead of time; and this is important for like I said before for making a decision on a build. I mean most people can make a payment plan if they find out the build's cost is double or tripple of what they thought it would cost, however its still painful to have to face that. A qote helps give an idea of what it will cost so that a person can plan around that or decide that they already have that disposable buring a hole in their wallet and if it goes over the quote, in either case its not that big a deal because the custom arm investment has already been planned for. Its striking a balence is what its all about I guess. If all custom orders went to rich sports stars who could afford any build no matter what the smith charged that's one thing, but that's not the case, I'd argue the average custom rifle owner is a middleclass person of low to mid range who still appreciates the quality of a custom built weapon and is willing to save for it and if they are given an estimate this becomes less of a contentious thing.
 
I've always had good comms with Frank at Bartlein and Mark with Short Action Customs. Not on the precision side but Joe with Superior Firearms LLC with a 1895 GBL custom.I think the biggest thing is good comms up front, get the work order nailed down with a HONEST TIME ASSESSMENT and then don't call the smith until that time is up. In my opinion, nobody should take work when they can't even touch the piece for months on end(unless stated up front), they are simply stacking the work and it's not fair to the customer. All above were on the money when stating lead times, Bartlein was a month early! The nerve of them--

Bartlein Barrels, Inc. - Main Page
Short Action Customs | Your Foundation for Precision
Superior Firearms
 
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Its my one major regret is those parts sitting there rather than in my possesion. The estimate for getting started I thought was after new years, that's what I was told. And to now be told it will not be until later this year and they are not sure, that makes me want to get my assembles back and I hope they are all not rummaged through. If I change builders it may still be better to drop ship to the new builder from the old builder, that's a bit awkward but it is business, and though I need to contact my builder yet about this I imagine they probably have no issue, I imagine they are doing fine business-wise and won't care that I move on. It would just be a headache to get the parts shipped to either me or to the other builder.
 
I've always had good comms with Frank at Bartlein and Mark with Short Action Customs. Not on the precision side but Joe with Superior Firearms LLC with a 1895 GBL custom.I think the biggest thing is good comms up front, get the work order nailed down with a HONEST TIME ASSESSMENT and then don't call the smith until that time is up. In my opinion, nobody should take work when they can't even touch the piece for months on end(unless stated up front), they are simply stacking the work and it's not fair to the customer. All above were on the money when stating lead times, Bartlein was a month early! The nerve of them--

Bartlein Barrels, Inc. - Main Page
Short Action Customs | Your Foundation for Precision
Superior Firearms


+1 for Frank at Bartlein and Mark at Short Action Customs. Mark usually emails me back every 2-3 days. I've rarely waited longer then 3 days for him to get back to me. He's also very professional. My latest build I bet you I have drove him up the wall with changes and emails and he still takes it in stride and works with me. He had to get on my ass the other day but it was deserved. He's cool like that though. His work is also top notch. He's very talented and attention to detail is AWESOME!

Frank at Bartlein is also awesome, he's helped me out before and went above and beyond what he could have.
 
Its my one major regret is those parts sitting there rather than in my possesion. The estimate for getting started I thought was after new years, that's what I was told. And to now be told it will not be until later this year and they are not sure, that makes me want to get my assembles back and I hope they are all not rummaged through. If I change builders it may still be better to drop ship to the new builder from the old builder, that's a bit awkward but it is business, and though I need to contact my builder yet about this I imagine they probably have no issue, I imagine they are doing fine business-wise and won't care that I move on. It would just be a headache to get the parts shipped to either me or to the other builder.

As much as a pain in the ass as it might be, have them shipped back to you so you can inspect them and ensure their condition and that all the parts are present. Nothing worse than to add your new Smith in the middle of the issue if something is missing or dinged up when he gets the parts or you get the final product.
 
You're right, it will cost extra but its worth the extra cost to make sure everything is in order, that would allow me to leave the new builder alone with the work if I know everything is ok. Also its maybe better to not involve the new smith with the old smith, its like the new girlfriend having to meet the ex-girlfriend. Well that's kinda a bad analogy. Honestly I believe the current guy is capable of doing the work, and they are into precision rifle and have a personal passion for clones outside of their normal line of work-they built two or three for themselves and possibly a hide member or two; but I think I better move on to someone else.