Whats the minimum sized Elk cartridge for shooting up to 500 yards? Is a 338Win Mag overkill? I thought it was all about bullet placement? Discuss.
Hunting & Fishing Minimum sized Elk cartridge
- Thread starter 30calDeath
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This has been discussed to great lengths many, many times here. Perhaps you could just read one of the previous threads. Several of them are still on the first page of the hunting forum.
Enter your cartridge here
No such thing as overkill
it is, was, and always will be
Already have
I don't know, if you only end up with enough usable meat to make a few pounds of "pepperoni" or sausage then perhaps your cartridge is too large
I've seen pics of people killed elk with 22 cal wildcats.
Bullet weight + energy + shot placement.
A high school classmate of mine killed a nice 6x6 with a 243. Granted the elk was bedded and only 150yds away and placement was perfect.....get lots of practice with whatever you shoot and you shouldn't have a problem.
You always read/hear the stories about the KILLS. The "minimum " cartridge folks NEVER publicize their failures and losses.
I killed not one, but TWO elk with my 9mm sidearm. 147 gr WW subsonics. Both were tangled in barbed wire fences. Does that make the 9mm an elk cartridge? NO.
Use Enough Gun.
I killed not one, but TWO elk with my 9mm sidearm. 147 gr WW subsonics. Both were tangled in barbed wire fences. Does that make the 9mm an elk cartridge? NO.
Use Enough Gun.
I killed a pronghorn antelope with a pocket knife. It had an old wound and was fevered. It was what I had, and the right thing to do. You will get many opinions on this subject from .223 to .375. We tend to think in perfect term scenarios, however the perfect close, broadside shot rarely is the one we encounter. Be prepared for the most difficlult scenario you may encounter.
I wouldn't have a problem with 308, 270, 260, 6.5 Creedmore... I wouldn't have a problem with a LOT of choices...just depends on how clean/easy of a shot it is. 338 Mag is not overkill but I wouldn't carry one just because my 308 does all the elk killing I need to do in a lot smaller/easier package.
I've hunted with some guys that needed 155mm howitzer.
We guided for some city folks a few years back: In thick timber (longest shot gonna be 75-100 yards) had one guy 30 yards from a nice bull...
Us: "Shoot him!"
Citydude: "can't see him"
Us: "he's right there"
Citydude: "can't see him"
Us: "SHOOT HIM!!!"
Citydude: "CAN'T SEE HIM"
....elk runs off...
(Equipment inspection)
Us: "next time you might ought to dial that scope down from 15 power..." Bang head.
I've hunted with some guys that needed 155mm howitzer.
We guided for some city folks a few years back: In thick timber (longest shot gonna be 75-100 yards) had one guy 30 yards from a nice bull...
Us: "Shoot him!"
Citydude: "can't see him"
Us: "he's right there"
Citydude: "can't see him"
Us: "SHOOT HIM!!!"
Citydude: "CAN'T SEE HIM"
....elk runs off...
(Equipment inspection)
Us: "next time you might ought to dial that scope down from 15 power..." Bang head.
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The same can be said of the Ultra mag crowd, a bad shot is a bad shot. No amount of powder or lead can make you a better marksman, a shot through the heart with a .257R is way better than a double ham shot with .416R. This discussion has been had over and over, and it should be a sticky in this subforum. I've said it before; there are probably just as many animals lost to magnums as there are to non-magnums, expanding to non-expanding broadheads, short range to long range, etc.etc.etc. Its beating a dead horse. It ALWAYS comes down to the skill of the hunter, and the placement of his shot, the rest is all luck and conditions. I dont bet, but if I did, I'd bet that the next average 10 hunters that came down the trail behind me, couldn't put a hit on an 6" target 10 out of 10 times at anything beyond 100yds. And THAT is where all these opinion based complaints about .308's .243's etc. come from. Undedicated enthusiast's who love to hunt, but lack the skill. Then blame it on "this damn rifle!" instead of their own lack of preparation. All of us have heard the stories; "my uncle had a .270, what a POS that thing was, took three shots to put down a deer" so every impressionable mind around that campfire automatically puts the .270 into a category with pony's, pink pajama's, and Tapco coated SKS's. And we wont even get into the care of these firearms, how many of these people pull grandpa's old rifle out, wipe off the dust, spit on the bolt, and then head into the mountains to kill bambi? never doubting it shoots like Han Solo's lazer blaster? If people spent as much time preparing to take the life of an animal as they do buying beer for the hunt, they may find their averages increasing...
I have a very good friend, that I call " Mountain Man Dan", lives over in the Flathead Valley of Montana West of Kalispel. He has downed more elk than anyone I know with bow, rifle and even a knife (but that's a whole story in itself) and he swears by the .308. He rolls his own but says that in a pinch he prefers Federal Powershock. Mind you, he is one Hell of a shooter/hunter and as is often stated, it is all about shot placement.
Whatever gun you are comfortable with and shoot well. Stay with .264 caliber and up and use a good quality bullet! shot placement is key! I see lots of guys caring 30-378, 300 rums, 338's and they cant shoot em because they're afraid of them(flinch like a bitch)
Funny You mention the .257 Roberts. I once killed a cow at about 200 yds WITH a shot right through the heart. With the old, gold/black box 115 gr Nosler partitions. It's ALL about placement.
[MENTION=4927]CMB[/MENTION], Couldn't have said it better myself sir.
308 anchored one for me out of a Steyr Mountain Rifle. Guide asked what my rifle wanted to be when it grew up...
Last elk I killed with my 338 win mag was at 459 yards, blew the heart up she took 4 or 5 steps and fell over. If you can shoot the bigger rounds well the extra horse power doesn't hurt. Most of the time I hunt with a 280 Remington or a 30-06, 160gr or heavier with quality bullets. If my goal is to fill the freezer I bring out one of my long range rifles which happen to be magnums.
To some degree yes but by using enough caliber, the hunter still has to place the bullet in the area to fell the animal so it should be use enough gun that you can shoot the most accurate. Using a 338rum is enough but can hunter place the bullet as accurate as they could with a 257r, 243, 7.08, 308?. A miss is a miss the horsepower behind the miss can never make up for the miss. And, every animal and every shot is different. No two or three or 500 will react to the shot the same. Some times a direct kill shot with a 243 will tip over in its tracks while a 338 in the same area the animal walks just like a kill shot from a 338 will go limp while the 243 will walk off. No two shots or animals will be the same.
i cannot relate to other states but I have been to Alaska F&G sight in day at their range. Once again, who is most likely to place the kill shot, a 250 bearded macho with his 338rum shooting a wide group as he jerks the trigger from the recoil or the 120 pound soaking wet 18 year old with her 243 slicing center. I actually helped a guy who said moose are tuff to kill and his 375HH would not kill a moose last year, something like 3 shots in that moose and it walked off, absorbed my shots like it was a 22, so this year he was proud toting the 416rem and if he hit a 10" circle at 100 once it was by pure luck of the jerk. I just shook my head and said good luck my friend.
Oh believe me I have my fair share of misses with 243, 7.08, 7mag, 300Wby, 340wby but it was not the horsepower per say but the trigger actuator who did not place the bullet. But also had them go limp in their tracks from all those. The caliber had not much to do with it, it was the shot placement, the bullet doing its job, the animal and just pure luck how all these came together to either go dead or walk.
coldboremiracle said:
Can I get an "Amen"?
That's probably one of the best statements I've heard on this forum in all my time here.
I was discussing the "Minimalists" who want to shoot elk with cartridges better suited to coyotes and gophers. I was NOT suggested that one needed the largest Ultra Magnum to do the job. I've got enough Range and guiding time to have seen the flinchers with their Ultra/Weatherby mags. It's all about PLACEMENT. But...it needs to be a slug APPROPRIATE for the game, in diameter and weight as well as construction.
No argument from me, just my opinion just like yours, that is what makes debating or discussing things fun especially when feelings or pride does not get in the way. I grew up with Roy Weatherby and his magnums and I have owned several over the decades. When I could shoot my 340 as accurate as my wifes 243 it was my meat getter, it was a real hell bender on game but it became a safe queen a few years as I became one of the minimalist, sort of to less horsepower 7.08 and 243 in Tikka T3. The last time I popped a primer on my 340, I lost two fillings from me teeth. It hurt and scared me! It weighs in around 7.75# with a 250gr partition out the tube at 2990, it hurts and I cannot believe I once use to shoot it off bags on a bench and absorb all that recoil.
Now I just sit around and meow!
My cousin and two friends swear by 224s, two of them 22.250 and one 220swift. I cannot argue with their success but its a tiny hole with not much mass behind it. I still believe in 338 and then 284 as the most efficient at flying, driving and wound channel. If I still hunted much or cared, I would like to try a 338 federal or 338.06. Things just keep me away, its a Ruger and spending the coin. I talked to a lot hunters who swear by the 338.06.
Now I just sit around and meow!
My cousin and two friends swear by 224s, two of them 22.250 and one 220swift. I cannot argue with their success but its a tiny hole with not much mass behind it. I still believe in 338 and then 284 as the most efficient at flying, driving and wound channel. If I still hunted much or cared, I would like to try a 338 federal or 338.06. Things just keep me away, its a Ruger and spending the coin. I talked to a lot hunters who swear by the 338.06.
i dont think the 338 is an overkill at all. I do believe minimum at 500 yards would be a good 6.5 cal loaded properly. a 260 rem, 6.5-284, 6.5-47 would be my minimum at that distance. i know elk have been taking with smaller calibers but i dont think at that range or further. A 270. win or larger is what i would take if the person doesn't have a larger cal. I personally love the 300. win mag
.........Amen!
I have to agree with a lot of everyone's choices. Wen I get drawn for elk more than likely I will use my 300 win mag or 6.5 creedmoor. A lot of it comes down to to placement, bullet choice and other variables. I have watched a 370" bull drop like a bag of rocks with a 22-250 would I use one no and I have seen them run about 40 yards with a well placed shot out of a 300 weatherby the heart was gone and the lungs were jello. If you can handle the magnum go with it if not get something smaller.
At 500 yards the 300 win mag would be my choice but then again its my choice from 100-1000 yards. Although my H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 loaded with 525 grain pile drivers does a very nice job as well.
IF the chips were down, bad shot angle, long distance, horrible terrain to remove downed Elk, the 338 WM would be one of my top first choices. That said, I would just as happily hunt them with a 260, 270, or similar. Good bullets thru vitals will do in Elk well as proven many times. Whether one is willing to pass if you get a "worst case scenario shot presentation" is the question.
My walking rifle is a 7-08, if I really can't get closer than 500, the 300 WSM comes out. That might all change next year, as I am really liking 7mm bullets so the 300 might become a 7mm WSM.
Just about all center-fire rifle cartridges have the capability to kill an elk, but not all hunters or shooter do...
Just about all center-fire rifle cartridges have the capability to kill an elk, but not all hunters or shooter do...
A short story.
I have 2 friends who have more money than good sense and they go to the Rockys to elk hunt every year and have for the last 10-15 years. These two are NOT shooters in any sense of the word. They have never had much luck killing an elk for some reason though. About 5 years ago they spotted a heard across a small valley at about 500 yards. One of these gentlemen is shooting a 300 Win Mag in a Winchester M70 with a 6-24 Bushnell shooting ammo that I loaded and was shooting around an inch at 100. The other one was shooting a custom Remington in 30-378 Weatherby with ammo that he had made by the gunshop that built the gun for him. Between the two of them, they fired 40 shots at this group of elk. When the dust cleared and the mountains went quiet again, they hadnt hit a damn thing. Now I know that 90% of the people on this board could likely hit a 1 MOA target atleast once with 20 shots at that range so it completely baffles me how they didnt hit anything. Now, to account for their lack of success both of these men blamed their rifles as not being up to shooting that far!!!! One went out and bought a 300 Ultra Mag that he is afraid of the recoil on, and the other bought a 458 Win Mag cause bigger must be better!!!! In this case the minimum cartridge to kill an elk is a damn stinger missile.
I have 2 friends who have more money than good sense and they go to the Rockys to elk hunt every year and have for the last 10-15 years. These two are NOT shooters in any sense of the word. They have never had much luck killing an elk for some reason though. About 5 years ago they spotted a heard across a small valley at about 500 yards. One of these gentlemen is shooting a 300 Win Mag in a Winchester M70 with a 6-24 Bushnell shooting ammo that I loaded and was shooting around an inch at 100. The other one was shooting a custom Remington in 30-378 Weatherby with ammo that he had made by the gunshop that built the gun for him. Between the two of them, they fired 40 shots at this group of elk. When the dust cleared and the mountains went quiet again, they hadnt hit a damn thing. Now I know that 90% of the people on this board could likely hit a 1 MOA target atleast once with 20 shots at that range so it completely baffles me how they didnt hit anything. Now, to account for their lack of success both of these men blamed their rifles as not being up to shooting that far!!!! One went out and bought a 300 Ultra Mag that he is afraid of the recoil on, and the other bought a 458 Win Mag cause bigger must be better!!!! In this case the minimum cartridge to kill an elk is a damn stinger missile.
I think one of your friends is in my platoon, McLarenross. haha. He sure talks a lot of game though! I've enjoyed this thread. Hoping to try elk hunting in the next couple years if work allows.
I know a guy in Alaska who after claiming he put 3 rounds into a moose from 70 yards away, with his .30-06 with a 3-9 Leupy, the moose walked off. So he goes out and buys himself a .338 WM. After bragging to my buddy about his new rifle, my buddy insists on taking her to the range, the guy claims he doesnt need to because the scope was BORE SIGHTED, by the guy at the gun shop. When they go to the range they also bring along the WEAK 30-06 along. When my buddy started shooting the -06 he couldnt put it on paper @ 100yds., so they moved it in. No hits on paper (24x24in) @50, so they start shooting at a dirt pile at 50. The rifle was shooting about 4 ft off at 50 yards. This dingbat never bothered to check his sight scope before the hunting season, and ended up spending over $1,200 bucks on a new rifle because of that. To me getting another rifle wouldnt be a problem, but he sees it as having one too many rifles, ended up selling the .338 for a huge loss.
Unfortunately, we have our share of blithering idiots up here too. I've found moose to be big, stupid and fairly fragile despite their huge body size, but, shot placement goes out the window when some inexperienced asshat dusts off his "Gun" for the first time in a year, MAYBE fires three or four shots for "sightin' in", hits a pie plate a coupla' times @ 50yds while calling it 100yds, and goes forth to get his Moose, or Caribou, or Elk...............gets "Buck Fever", and misses or wounds the poor critter which promptly runs off.....
The crack shots getting ready for deer season think if they can hit 4x8 sheet of plywood good enough. They call it minute of deer and then can't figure why the eat tag soup every year also they have to use 3in slugs so they get more range. They just got their new deer slayer at walmart 30min ago. I say hunt with what you shoot the best.
So much hate for the RUMs here.
I shoot a .300RUM as my elk cartridge (if I could ever get drawn), and I am not a bug guy (5'7" & 155#). Bought it when they very first came out in the 90s. Put a muzzle brake on it before firing a shot. Shot 200 rounds of factory ammo to get the brass and took my elk that year with it taking not a single step after taking a Nosler Partition to the boiler room at a mere 200 yds.
I have since worked up a great hand load and am anxiously awaiting another AZ elk tag. I shoot 175 gr. Barnes LRX @ 3361 fps with a .417" group at 100 yds. Have verified ballistics out to 650 yards so far.
I shoot a .300RUM as my elk cartridge (if I could ever get drawn), and I am not a bug guy (5'7" & 155#). Bought it when they very first came out in the 90s. Put a muzzle brake on it before firing a shot. Shot 200 rounds of factory ammo to get the brass and took my elk that year with it taking not a single step after taking a Nosler Partition to the boiler room at a mere 200 yds.
I have since worked up a great hand load and am anxiously awaiting another AZ elk tag. I shoot 175 gr. Barnes LRX @ 3361 fps with a .417" group at 100 yds. Have verified ballistics out to 650 yards so far.
Minimum sized Elk cartridge
I so miss Lindy's posts. If he were here right now he would say that the only truthful answer to a non trivial question is: It depends.
When the question is about hunting calibers the answer is usually that, regardless of caliber, it depends where you place the bullet.
I so miss Lindy's posts. If he were here right now he would say that the only truthful answer to a non trivial question is: It depends.
When the question is about hunting calibers the answer is usually that, regardless of caliber, it depends where you place the bullet.
Only rule I know for sure is: Find a rifle/cartridge combo that you can stick with and use for everything you hunt, then practice your balls off. No weirdness, no tweaks--always the same package from pronghorns to bull elk. Now, if you're hunting 'chucks, this might be a different story.
For me, it has become a .300WM and 200g combo. It's the only combo I've shot since April. But for my coworker who kills a LOT of animals, it's a .260....for each their own, but there is no substitution for repetition and knowing exactly how that combination behaves.
For me, it has become a .300WM and 200g combo. It's the only combo I've shot since April. But for my coworker who kills a LOT of animals, it's a .260....for each their own, but there is no substitution for repetition and knowing exactly how that combination behaves.
It's been said that bullets matter more than headstamp!
It could be said eiter way and mean as much, shot placement always trumps the rest.
I've never had the pleasure of elk hunting but my grandfather went every year and carried either a 30-06 or a 244 Remington and never had any issues with either. He did practice a lot though and knew the ability of himself and the rifles.
Bullet placement, there is nothing more
Bullet design is a solid next
Having fun is next
Taking good photos is next
Meat care somewhere in here
Telling lies is always important
Head stamp only matters to those who.....
My buddy hunts with his 22-250 with a hand loaded 55gr Hornady V-Max and is all he needs. Seen kids kill nice bulls with 243. All about shot placement.
