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New US Army Camouflage Selection Leaked

RIGHT. This is part of what I referenced earlier. I read recently either in Stars and Stripes or on Military.com that the services have been told that come 2018 they will be going back to a universal pattern for all branches like the woodlands. What fucking sense does it make for the Army to adopt yet ANOTHER pattern (while they're simultaneously using the ACUs and Multicam now) and spend the inevitable FORTUNE on it, when service-specific cammies are slotted to end in the next few years.

For comfort, the Canadian desert CADPAT was BADASS. When you first put it on you thought you were going to die in it because the material felt thick, but it was AWESOME for comfort, durability, and camo properties in southern A-Stan.

The Canadian CADPAT was licensed to the Marine Corps, recolored, and called MARPAT. Had the other services just been allowed to use that pattern, I imagine this whole service specific camo BS would never have happened. But because the Marines decided they were special deserved their own pattern that they didn't have to share, it started toppling the dominos toward the path of service-specific camo.

The Army wasn't looking to adopt another new pattern in conjunction with ACU and Multicam, they were looking to replace them all with a family of four colorations of the the same pattern for use in different environments. Its a tacit acknowledgement that trying to use one pattern and coloration for everything (i.e. Universal Camouflage Pattern) is not going to work. They also realized they couldn't just recolor the ACU because its actually the same pattern as MARPAT using three colors instead of four, and the Marines would throw a hissy fit over it (reference the Navy's adoption of AOR 1 and AOR 2, and how the Marines protested because one of them looked too similar to MARPAT).

Service rivalry BS wasn't going to be overcome without intervention of a higher authority (congress).
 
The Canadian CADPAT was licensed to the Marine Corps, recolored, and called MARPAT. Had the other services just been allowed to use that pattern, I imagine this whole service specific camo BS would never have happened. But because the Marines decided they were special deserved their own pattern that they didn't have to share, it started toppling the dominos toward the path of service-specific camo.

The Army wasn't looking to adopt another new pattern in conjunction with ACU and Multicam, they were looking to replace them all with a family of four colorations of the the same pattern for use in different environments. Its a tacit acknowledgement that trying to use one pattern and coloration for everything (i.e. Universal Camouflage Pattern) is not going to work. They also realized they couldn't just recolor the ACU because its actually the same pattern as MARPAT using three colors instead of four, and the Marines would throw a hissy fit over it (reference the Navy's adoption of AOR 1 and AOR 2, and how the Marines protested because one of them looked too similar to MARPAT).

Service rivalry BS wasn't going to be overcome without intervention of a higher authority (congress).

You ain't kidding there! My hopes for congress on many issues falls short. Every time I see this country elect somebody different to undo the crap that got done, the undoing never gets done.

This spending crap like this is no stranger to the military either. I've watched after several forest fires, the equipment that gets buried in a hole in the ground because it 'no longer worked'. I saw one report after a fire how a lot of equipment got 'lost' when crews had to abandon their lines.

I agree there is no one pattern that will cover all bases. I certainly don't see where one service or another has a 'license' on a camo pattern or not. Service branches are government entities and should not hold that right. The rivalry is pure B.S. and needs a stop put to it.
 
Complete waste of money. Bring back the woodland camo from WWII Pacific or OD green. Actually the above mentioned of polka dots isn't too far off. German Dot 44 used by the SS was excellent. Most of the SS camo was superior to Allied wear. Not politically correct today for those that would recognize it I guess. Someone is pocketing alot of bucks from all this fashion fiasco.
 
Complete waste of money. Bring back the woodland camo from WWII Pacific or OD green. Actually the above mentioned of polka dots isn't too far off. German Dot 44 used by the SS was excellent. Most of the SS camo was superior to Allied wear. Not politically correct today for those that would recognize it I guess. Someone is pocketing alot of bucks from all this fashion fiasco.

The ODG was the Smartist of them all and some of the past camo,s were just plain crazy.

John
 
The Canadian CADPAT was licensed to the Marine Corps, recolored, and called MARPAT. Had the other services just been allowed to use that pattern, I imagine this whole service specific camo BS would never have happened. But because the Marines decided they were special deserved their own pattern that they didn't have to share, it started toppling the dominos toward the path of service-specific camo.

The Army wasn't looking to adopt another new pattern in conjunction with ACU and Multicam, they were looking to replace them all with a family of four colorations of the the same pattern for use in different environments. Its a tacit acknowledgement that trying to use one pattern and coloration for everything (i.e. Universal Camouflage Pattern) is not going to work. They also realized they couldn't just recolor the ACU because its actually the same pattern as MARPAT using three colors instead of four, and the Marines would throw a hissy fit over it (reference the Navy's adoption of AOR 1 and AOR 2, and how the Marines protested because one of them looked too similar to MARPAT).

Service rivalry BS wasn't going to be overcome without intervention of a higher authority (congress).

Yeah, the Canadians were very happy to inform me that the MARPAT was a spin-off of their CADPAT. What I loved about the desert CADPAT was the cut of the uniform and the material they used. Those things wore like pajamas and were TOUGH!! I think we can agree that getting a full year of dismounts out of one set of cammies is pretty incredible. No blown-out knees or crotches.

I'll admit that I can't be rational about the MARPAT issue. After decades (or centuries) of living out of the other services dumpsters the Marines finally had something all to theirselves and everyone else wanted it. We had to wait for the Army to break or upgrade Abrams before we got them, we happily took the SAWs when the Army didn't want them the first time, and coutless other things. The MARPAT was distinctive to the Corps and it was a rare chance for the Commandant to tell the larger services "no". As I said, rationally I know that's probably fucked up and there should have been more "sharing". I just can't be rational about it. Marines are INSANELY proud of our uniforms and of being different. In recent years the Commandant has taken some big steps to makins us more like the other branches on uniform issues, and I disagree with most of those choices.

Now when it's time to go back to a universal pattern, all that shit goes out the window to me and if all the branches decide that the "best" pattern for everyone to use is some version of MARPAT, then so be it, it will be just like when we all wore woodlands.

To be clear, I'm not arguing with you. I agree with pretty much all your points and I'm tired of all the money being wasted on shit that doesn't work. I DO believe that the services should be able to adopt their own regs for the WEARING of those uniforms though just as we used to, so if the army wants to go back to tucking rather than blousing boots, and the Marines want to go back to rolling their sleeves (and rolling them "backwards" opposed to the Army) then so be it.
 
Yeah, the Marines have always gotten the shaft when it comes to funding and equipment. As a USAF guy myself, I'm well aware of the historical problems associated with the services that are considered "spin offs" of another service. Had the USAF stayed the US Army Air Corps, I'm sure we would be having the same issues with funding and equipment. The real difference is that if the Marines managed to break away from the Navy, there was a strong contingent out there that would claim they didn't do anything that couldn't be done by the Army (which is wrong).

I get the pride thing. There is an element of pride in knowing that if you look at a randomly selected group of military members, you can pick out the Marines because of their uniforms and know who to talk to when you need to get it done. The same applies to the USAF uniform, except I despise the ABU. It's clearly a garrison uniform for office work and maybe maintenance, and not a combat uniform- which is why it was abandoned in theater in favor of the Multicam uniforms.

IMO, there is a lot of gross inefficiency in the various acquisition programs. I've got friends working the UAV/RPA programs. Not a day goes by where he's not tearing his hair out because of the refusal to work together. The Air Force, Army, Marines, and Navy all want predator UAVs for themselves. But they all want to use them differently, and then one wants to use a different engine, while another wants to develop a new engine that beats the other three, but nobody wants to share or use what the guy has because it wouldn't be "home grown" anymore. Another example is the whole F-35 program. At some point, there needs to be some authority over how equipment gets developed and deployed that reduces all the BS that's going on. The whole uniform issue is just another part of that problem.
 
Service rivalry BS wasn't going to be overcome without intervention of a higher authority (congress).


Makes one wonder why we have 4 separate services to begin with. Why not just a "US Armed Forces" with specialty groups within. Give them ONE big budget and let them all feed from the same trough. As it is, each branch of the Military has it's own land, sea, and air components. The rivalries merely lead to unnecessary duplication and waste.
 
Makes one wonder why we have 4 separate services to begin with. Why not just a "US Armed Forces" with specialty groups within. Give them ONE big budget and let them all feed from the same trough. As it is, each branch of the Military has it's own land, sea, and air components. The rivalries merely lead to unnecessary duplication and waste.

It's a fair point, and one that's been made before by several people. The issue really just comes down to employment of those assets. The Army, Marines, Navy, and Air Force (well...mainly the Air Force) all think very differently on how to best utilize air power. The whole reason that the Army Air Corps was split away into its own service was that the ground-oriented Army generals just did not comprehend what the strategic use of air power could offer them. I had this very discussion a few weeks ago with a bunch of Army captains who just didn't think of air power beyond CAS, medivac, and ISR. If the guy in charge of the whole "US Armed Forces" thinks that way, then it is very likely that funding for programs like strategic assets, satellites, and long range bombing would be lost.

Likewise, the Army and Marine corps methodology and doctrine are very different. This creates variability, and even competition, in how ground power is employed. This is a good thing.

Anyway, IMO, the current structure is fine. The services are responsible for their own training and equipping, and then the assets are assigned to a unified combatant command in the AOR. Basically, we fight just like you described. What I want to see on the acquisition side of things are more unified "centers of excellence" that are responsible for developing and supplying equipment that works across the services, rather than each service trying to develop its own version of the same widget.
 
IWhat I want to see on the acquisition side of things are more unified "centers of excellence" that are responsible for developing and supplying equipment that works across the services, rather than each service trying to develop its own version of the same widget.


Which is probably more of what I was trying to say in the beginning but couldn't put it together quite as well as you did.
 
Like the Marines, the Rangers are "insanely" proud of their uniform and want it to be distinct from the rest of the Army...and other services for that matter. FWIW, the first six months I was in the Rgr. BN, we wore the same cammies as the Marines. Oh you should have heard the fallout in the back channels of Ranger-dom when Gen. Shinseki awarded the black beret to the whole Army. Active and veterans of the Rangers were flippin' out.
Yet, we were not the first to wear the black beret officially. The OD Jungles were leftovers, worn by EVERYBODY in VN. Same with Jungle boots. Only a couple other units at that time were authorized to wear them. So here we have all this common old stuff, but we're unique...just like everybody else was.

I know that each service would like to be distinct, but distinction doesn't have to be the whole uniform. Headgear can change, badges, rank insignia, color of rank/badges. Even the basic colors of the uniform itself without having to go to a camo pattern. It really takes someone who will take on the military on a hard line and put a stop to where it doesn't need to be. FWIW, as much as I didn't like MacNamara doing this during VN, He did do it across the board and it saved money. He did need to back off and listen to his people when it came to aircraft and weaponry.
 
Field testing several years ago taught us that using any desert camo trouser combined with any green camo jacket worked the best. Broke up the size of a man and made you less visible from 200 yards on out. The human eye/brain is looking for something that is a recognized size. By using a combination of camo patterns top and bottom, we were made to look "smaller" in the minds eye and less likely to be detected by visual recognition. Try it sometime, camo pattern be damned.
 
I might be drifting a bit here, but I think we have wasted tons of money outfitting people with equipment that they don't need. Look at all the gear the average Fobit wears these days-RIDICULOUS!

I always liked the traditional Sailors uniforms as they were very practical and remained virtually unchanged to centuries.

One piece flight suits for combat helicopter pilots never made sense, but like the Rangers, we resisted change because the suit was a symbol of pride in our specialty.

As Sonny and Cher said, the beat goes on...
 
Field testing several years ago taught us that using any desert camo trouser combined with any green camo jacket worked the best. Broke up the size of a man and made you less visible from 200 yards on out. The human eye/brain is looking for something that is a recognized size. By using a combination of camo patterns top and bottom, we were made to look "smaller" in the minds eye and less likely to be detected by visual recognition. Try it sometime, camo pattern be damned.

Yup, try camo trousers of any type and a grey sweatshirt right where you're at in Utah...amazing what people won't see. Really make it interesting and take a fat black sharpie to the sweatshirt and make some lines to break that up.
 
Like the Marines, the Rangers are "insanely" proud of their uniform and want it to be distinct from the rest of the Army...and other services for that matter. FWIW, the first six months I was in the Rgr. BN, we wore the same cammies as the Marines. Oh you should have heard the fallout in the back channels of Ranger-dom when Gen. Shinseki awarded the black beret to the whole Army. Active and veterans of the Rangers were flippin' out.
Yet, we were not the first to wear the black beret officially. The OD Jungles were leftovers, worn by EVERYBODY in VN. Same with Jungle boots. Only a couple other units at that time were authorized to wear them. So here we have all this common old stuff, but we're unique...just like everybody else was.

I know that each service would like to be distinct, but distinction doesn't have to be the whole uniform. Headgear can change, badges, rank insignia, color of rank/badges. Even the basic colors of the uniform itself without having to go to a camo pattern. It really takes someone who will take on the military on a hard line and put a stop to where it doesn't need to be. FWIW, as much as I didn't like MacNamara doing this during VN, He did do it across the board and it saved money. He did need to back off and listen to his people when it came to aircraft and weaponry.

TOTALLY with you on this one. With no dog in the fight I was still offended when the Army "awarded" the beret to everyone. The Rangers have every right to distinguish themselves in uniform as they have in combat, and to me it was shameful when they literally gave that symbol of accomplishment away to everyone.
 
Well the Army being the senior service should just re absorb the Air Force,ofr many reasons, the Marines are already part of the Navy as their police force, I suggest just going to the two services referenced in the Constitution. The Army to take care of the real business, the Navy to transport the supplies that cant be hauled by the Army's new airplanes. The Marines, well they can continue to provide ship board security for the Navy. On the uniforms, they should just pick a cammo patern for every region in the world, buy enough to equip 25 million people and put them in a warehouse for war use, for conus and peace time military issue, OD or Khaki to everyone in the new Army (air corps included), Navy (ship board police force) get baby blue (Navy), OD or Khaki for the Marines they let off the ships.

Makes one wonder why we have 4 separate services to begin with. Why not just a "US Armed Forces" with specialty groups within. Give them ONE big budget and let them all feed from the same trough. As it is, each branch of the Military has it's own land, sea, and air components. The rivalries merely lead to unnecessary duplication and waste.
 
Americans wear baseball caps, Frenchmen wear berets.

TOTALLY with you on this one. With no dog in the fight I was still offended when the Army "awarded" the beret to everyone. The Rangers have every right to distinguish themselves in uniform as they have in combat, and to me it was shameful when they literally gave that symbol of accomplishment away to everyone.
 
Americans wear baseball caps, Frenchmen wear berets.

Apparently you missed the real reason why they are worn. I don't wear a baseball hat anytime I don't have to. Ain't my sport....

Also, FWIW, the flap was huge in the SF world when the Army or whomever, mandated all SF support people wear the green beret. Something about flash and crest I believe to show you were Q-course qualified or not.
 
Not my sport either but the 1sgt cot pissed when I showed up with a cammo'd hockey helmet. Yes the beret is uncomfy and itches, but it does hold the flash/crest. Just stirrin the pot a bit on this one, but I still don't think the Army, SF or not should be wearin a French hat.

Apparently you missed the real reason why they are worn. I don't wear a baseball hat anytime I don't have to. Ain't my sport....

Also, FWIW, the flap was huge in the SF world when the Army or whomever, mandated all SF support people wear the green beret. Something about flash and crest I believe to show you were Q-course qualified or not.
 
Not my sport either but the 1sgt cot pissed when I showed up with a cammo'd hockey helmet. Yes the beret is uncomfy and itches, but it does hold the flash/crest. Just stirrin the pot a bit on this one, but I still don't think the Army, SF or not should be wearin a French hat.

It actually started with the British. It's not only a French hat, it's a womans hat. And the purpose of wearing it was tell anyone tough enough to tell you you're going around in a womans hat and you should take it off, was to tell them to go ahead and take it off for you. In other words, "I dare you." That is the whole meaning of wearing a beret in the military.
 
My "favorite" of all time was that stupid Air Force blue camouflage pattern.
Who in hell came up with that idea????

Are you sure you're not talking about the Navy's new camo pattern? It's blue. And when in water, you literally can't see someone, except their head. The Air Force recently adopted the Tiger Stripe pattern. Because they sure don't need to be seen on a flightline...:rolleyes:
 
It actually started with the British. It's not only a French hat, it's a womans hat. And the purpose of wearing it was tell anyone tough enough to tell you you're going around in a womans hat and you should take it off, was to tell them to go ahead and take it off for you. In other words, "I dare you." That is the whole meaning of wearing a beret in the military.

The Beret although its not good to wear when its hot, But you had to be tough to wear it coz of all the ribing kind reminds me of Johnny Cash's song boy named Sue, I Guess that would toughen you up too, I hated mine in winter coz ya ears would freeze but ya scalp would sweat,

john
 
Yea, it would be about as easy for you to get the beret off my head as it would for you to get my CIB off my chest...best of luck to you.
 
Yea, it would be about as easy for you to get the beret off my head as it would for you to get my CIB off my chest...best of luck to you.

I know Uniforms can be pretty plain at times but when its your Uniform it amazing how much pride a person has invested it them. My Beret was always a pain because you were always looking for a place to stash it yet that Badge ment so much.

John
 
I would like to see the test data. the US4CES people made a pretty good case for their pattern... but they were also the only ones lobbying the general public. They made an interesting argument for including black, which I had always thought didn't make sense (as black doesn't occur naturally). I can't seem to find it. They turned the black in a picture to yellow to show how black occurs in nature often as shade. So the black adds dimension.

The US4CES pattern also seemed cheaper and easier to replicate as it features only 4 colors to Multicam's 7. Anything is better than ACU, I guess. I am interested to see how different the Crye Transitional is from the current Multicam.
 
Apparently you missed the real reason why they are worn. I don't wear a baseball hat anytime I don't have to. Ain't my sport....

Also, FWIW, the flap was huge in the SF world when the Army or whomever, mandated all SF support people wear the green beret. Something about flash and crest I believe to show you were Q-course qualified or not.

A few historical facts to clarify anyones assumptions.

First off, the whole SF support troops wearing the green beret was changed quicker than a monkey gets fucked and it was mandated that they wear maroon berets if they were not 18 series qualified as the green beret is reserved for those who are 18 series.

Second, the green beret is a Presidental award presented by president Kennedy to SF. None of the other berets used by US forces can say the same, it is just authorized organizational headgear. The green beret was un officially adopted by those in the regiment based on our regimental history beginnings, it was choosen as a symbol of distinction for those who were affiliated with the then start up unit and was typically only worn in the field, as it was not authorized at the time. However, some took to wearing it anyways in garrison and it became the defacto norm headgear,albeit unauthorized. That is until President Kennedy met with Gen Yaborough and commented on the Green beret where apon a conversation ensued and it later was identified as a presidental award and the official headgear for those who were Special Forces qualifed. See synopsis of that meeting here: JFK Meets General Yarborough 48 Years Ago | Photography by John Michael


Lastly: there was a point in time where those who were in student status going through the Q course were authorized to wear the green beret prior to their being awarded the 18 series MOS and the green beret. It caused some confusion around base and some had issue with it. As a means of differentiating students from those who had been awarded the 18 series MOS and the green beret they came up with what was known as the "candy stripe" flash, which was a 2"x4"rectangle of the group flash the student was potentially going to be assigned to if he graduated. It was sewn to the beret and worn along with the SF crest. It was quite ridiculous looking but upon graduation and award of the 18 series MOS,the student could put the full sized flash on his beret. This practice was done away with because it meant that the students, who wern't 18 series yet, were wearing a presidential award reserved only for those who hold the 18 series MOS. Since that time, students attending the Q course are only allowed to wear the green beret once they have graduated the Q course and participate in the donning of the green beret ceremony at graduation as they have officially earned it at that point. Unlike the other berets used in the US military, the Green Beret is not issued, it is earned.

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You ain't kidding there! My hopes for congress on many issues falls short. Every time I see this country elect somebody different to undo the crap that got done, the undoing never gets done.

This spending crap like this is no stranger to the military either. I've watched after several forest fires, the equipment that gets buried in a hole in the ground because it 'no longer worked'. I saw one report after a fire how a lot of equipment got 'lost' when crews had to abandon their lines.

I agree there is no one pattern that will cover all bases. I certainly don't see where one service or another has a 'license' on a camo pattern or not. Service branches are government entities and should not hold that right. The rivalry is pure B.S. and needs a stop put to it.

I totally agree with your last sentence----not that I disagree with what you wrote before.
From a non-military standpoint, I have to ask the question:

"Is there a "number of colors/color palette/pattern" that gives optimum camouflage? Obviously, different color palettes for different environments within reason.

If there is such a known combination for camouflage, would it not make the most sense for all the branches of service to use the same basic designs, with the colors dictated by the area of operation? This seems to me to be the smartest move, as it gives the service member the optimum benefit from camouflage, and thus the best chance of survival and completion of the mission. Why inter-service bickering about looking distinct, if a certain camouflage scheme really does the job it is supposed to do, help men and women blend in with their surroundings?????
 
A few historical facts to clarify anyones assumptions.

First off, the whole SF support troops wearing the green beret was changed quicker than a monkey gets fucked and it was mandated that they wear maroon berets if they were not 18 series qualified as the green beret is reserved for those who are 18 series.

Second, the green beret is a Presidental award presented by president Kennedy to SF. None of the other berets used by US forces can say the same, it is just authorized organizational headgear. The green beret was un officially adopted by those in the regiment based on our regimental history beginnings, it was choosen as a symbol of distinction for those who were affiliated with the then start up unit and was typically only worn in the field, as it was not authorized at the time. However, some took to wearing it anyways in garrison and it became the defacto norm headgear,albeit unauthorized. That is until President Kennedy met with Gen Yaborough and commented on the Green beret where apon a conversation ensued and it later was identified as a presidental award and the official headgear for those who were Special Forces qualifed. See synopsis of that meeting here: JFK Meets General Yarborough 48 Years Ago | Photography by John Michael


Lastly: there was a point in time where those who were in student status going through the Q course were authorized to wear the green beret prior to their being awarded the 18 series MOS and the green beret. It caused some confusion around base and some had issue with it. As a means of differentiating students from those who had been awarded the 18 series MOS and the green beret they came up with what was known as the "candy stripe" flash, which was a 2"x4"rectangle of the group flash the student was potentially going to be assigned to if he graduated. It was sewn to the beret and worn along with the SF crest. It was quite ridiculous looking but upon graduation and award of the 18 series MOS,the student could put the full sized flash on his beret. This practice was done away with because it meant that the students, who wern't 18 series yet, were wearing a presidential award reserved only for those who hold the 18 series MOS. Since that time, students attending the Q course are only allowed to wear the green beret once they have graduated the Q course and participate in the donning of the green beret ceremony at graduation as they have officially earned it at that point. Unlike the other berets used in the US military, the Green Beret is not issued, it is earned.

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PZ3, I just watched a program one the Green Berets on YT about the history of them only 3 days ago, Loved every minate of it,

Are you spying on me:cool::cool::cool:

John
 
So you don't earn a tan beret?

No, it's authorized organizational headgear worn by the cooks, the PAC clerks, the Motor pool mechanics, etc.....not unless you consider passing RASP/RIP for the 11 series guys to mean they earned it. If you had to go to Ranger school and pass before being allowed to wear the tan beret in Ranger regiment then I guess you could say it was earned, but thats not how it works. You get assigned to ranger Regiment, you get a Tan beret. Go to Ranger school and get your tab while in regiment, different story. Getting something just for showing up, isn't earning it, hence the issue many people have with giving everyone in the army the black beret just so they would feel "special".
 
I seem to recall all the Airborne weenies wearing Maroon berets, whether they were jump qual'ed or not; just because they were assigned to the unit. As Marines, we thought that quite humorous, along with all the shiney shit they wore on their greens. Had one ask once, "You don't have an air assault badge? I got mine in 19 'umpty frat'". To which I responded, "Yeah, well, we're all trained in air assault in boot camp; it's kind of...basic training to us." LOL!

Just to add a piece of history, there was a brief period when HQMC had authorized Marines to wear black berets (circa 1989), if they were part of a MEU and SOC qual'ed. It caused such a ruckus that Commandant Gray retracted the policy a week or so before it was to be allowed (even though many of us had been told to be prepared to have our clothing allowance docked, since they have to issue them to us due to deployment times and such).

Anyways, interesting factoid...
 
Airborne weinies eh? None of the marines on our task force thought that, and they were not POGS, but hardened fighting men, in a unit with a 69% casualty rate in Sadr.


I seem to recall all the Airborne weenies wearing Maroon berets, whether they were jump qual'ed or not; just because they were assigned to the unit. As Marines, we thought that quite humorous, along with all the shiney shit they wore on their greens. Had one ask once, "You don't have an air assault badge? I got mine in 19 'umpty frat'". To which I responded, "Yeah, well, we're all trained in air assault in boot camp; it's kind of...basic training to us." LOL!

Just to add a piece of history, there was a brief period when HQMC had authorized Marines to wear black berets (circa 1989), if they were part of a MEU and SOC qual'ed. It caused such a ruckus that Commandant Gray retracted the policy a week or so before it was to be allowed (even though many of us had been told to be prepared to have our clothing allowance docked, since they have to issue them to us due to deployment times and such).

Anyways, interesting factoid...
 
Never served but thanks to any and all that did, to me all of you are heroes and patriots, no matter what ya'll wear,
 
20 years USAF here, just a refresher statement. I started out in the Olive drabby fatigues, and I was fatigued of them after 8 years. Was glad the BDU's came out just before desert storm round 1. Desert uniform was the "Chocolate chips". Somebody didn't like them and then we had the "Mary Kay's". They were good enough. These "things" the troopies wear today are hideous to say the least. They should have went with the woodland digital. New general/new uniform was the norm in the AF. Maybe the Army has picked up on that too.
 
Airborne weinies eh? None of the marines on our task force thought that, and they were not POGS, but hardened fighting men, in a unit with a 69% casualty rate in Sadr.

Easy there Delta 4-3, that was a term of endearment we used to call them (the jump qual'ed, non-POG ones) back then (to which they would respond "Yeah whatever...leg." with a smirk). No disrespect to our brothers who willingly jump out of perfectly good aircraft; heck my grandfather was one of the originals (Merrill's Marauder's, 1st Bn, Bravo Co/Red Team-post composite reorg). Lots of ground pounders in the family, Army and Marines.
 
The Green Beret is an award, first presented the the Army Special Force by President John F Kennedy. The wearer is never required to remove it, just as any award or qualification badge (jump wings, CIB, dive badge, etc). The unit flash was worn on the beret by SF qualified personnel. Everyone else wore a "candy bar" patch under their unit crest on their "green hat". It was only considered a beret with a flash on it. Later, the SF Tab replaced the flash as the award to signify graduation from SFQC "the Q course". I earned mine as a young Corporal in 1982 having graduated from special operation demolitions, my first SF MOS. We started with 250 candidates and had 18 finish in my class. The one medic we had finished his school 6 months later.
 
A few historical facts to clarify anyones assumptions.

First off, the whole SF support troops wearing the green beret was changed quicker than a monkey gets fucked and it was mandated that they wear maroon berets if they were not 18 series qualified as the green beret is reserved for those who are 18 series.

Second, the green beret is a Presidental award presented by president Kennedy to SF. None of the other berets used by US forces can say the same, it is just authorized organizational headgear. The green beret was un officially adopted by those in the regiment based on our regimental history beginnings, it was choosen as a symbol of distinction for those who were affiliated with the then start up unit and was typically only worn in the field, as it was not authorized at the time. However, some took to wearing it anyways in garrison and it became the defacto norm headgear,albeit unauthorized. That is until President Kennedy met with Gen Yaborough and commented on the Green beret where apon a conversation ensued and it later was identified as a presidental award and the official headgear for those who were Special Forces qualifed. See synopsis of that meeting here: JFK Meets General Yarborough 48 Years Ago | Photography by John Michael


Lastly: there was a point in time where those who were in student status going through the Q course were authorized to wear the green beret prior to their being awarded the 18 series MOS and the green beret. It caused some confusion around base and some had issue with it. As a means of differentiating students from those who had been awarded the 18 series MOS and the green beret they came up with what was known as the "candy stripe" flash, which was a 2"x4"rectangle of the group flash the student was potentially going to be assigned to if he graduated. It was sewn to the beret and worn along with the SF crest. It was quite ridiculous looking but upon graduation and award of the 18 series MOS,the student could put the full sized flash on his beret. This practice was done away with because it meant that the students, who wern't 18 series yet, were wearing a presidential award reserved only for those who hold the 18 series MOS. Since that time, students attending the Q course are only allowed to wear the green beret once they have graduated the Q course and participate in the donning of the green beret ceremony at graduation as they have officially earned it at that point. Unlike the other berets used in the US military, the Green Beret is not issued, it is earned.

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First, I'd like to point out the reason for wearing a beret in the first place was correct.

My statement regarding the "flap" it caused in SF is true is it not? Not an assumption. Also, I wouldn't call 4-5 years, "quicker than a monkey gets fucked".
The mandate became real, IIRC, in 1980. In 1983, when I went to Scuba school, everyone was wearing them the way you describe. Again, in 1984, when we went up there (Ft. Bragg) for training, it was that way.

My statement, in no way demeans what the Green Beret means. As an award, not issued to someone who doesn't earn it. My understanding of how it went away, was to award the Special Forces Tab. Also, BTW, if you leave an SF unit, you were not authorized to wear the green beret as part of your headgear. As an 18 series now, you can. I think it's a good thing that they went back to "Only those qualified wear it". No matter what color beret it is.

To the point of wearing your beret after you leave an SF unit, it's a simple matter of a pen stroke for a commander to have you transferred if they don't like you being 'non-uniform'.

Also, to various degrees, the black beret {now tan} was earned every day you stay in a Ranger BN. At least I know I earned mine every day I was there. I know there were people in the unit that many felt did not, i.e. cooks, PAC personnel, S-4, etc. But they did their jobs and I never didn't have what I needed because of them. Uniformity back then was everything. Us Rangers all looked the same no matter what. If there was a hard frost before Oct. 1, you can believe we stood there in formation freezing our asses off with sleeves rolled up. Or, sweating our asses off after Oct, 1 with sleeves rolled down.

One of the things we need to remember is when you go on to the next thing in life, what you did will stay with you. You know what you did. You don't have to prove it everyday to someone with a virtual salad bar on his uniform. You served, you did your best. Some do not. But, you aren't going to change that. If you push too hard on people, most of whom have no idea what you've been through, they take it as 'in your face'. I'm not thinking that's the personna the Army or even SF wants to push. I have taken tons of crap from people in aviation because I was never aviation in the military. I simply have to remind myself, I served, I served well, I went above and beyond the call whenever I could, I made it into the Rangers, stayed four years, Graduated Ranger School and Graduated SFUWO in that time.

I also don't take for granted what todays soldiers are doing. When I was in I spent four whole "whoo-hoo" days in combat. Some guys today have seen seven to eight even nine years of combat. That is a lot of sacrifice for our country and no one, IMO, needs to get put down for what headgear they wear.

So back to the real reason we are talking here, money spent/wasted on new camo patterns. I'll say that there should be a pool of camo uniforms best suited to each area of operations. Added: Each Unit deploying there should have access to them. Not allowing other units to use "YOUR" camo is effectively saying, "Stand out there and catch bullets." Beyond that, beyond distinctive headgear/insignia, I see no need to spend the money on branch-wide camo patterns that won't get used.
 
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First, I'd like to point out the reason for wearing a beret in the first place was correct.

My statement regarding the "flap" it caused in SF is true is it not? Not an assumption. Also, I wouldn't call 4-5 years, "quicker than a monkey gets fucked".
The mandate became real, IIRC, in 1980. In 1983, when I went to Scuba school, everyone was wearing them the way you describe. Again, in 1984, when we went up there (Ft. Bragg) for training, it was that way.

My statement, in no way demeans what the Green Beret means. As an award, not issued to someone who doesn't earn it. My understanding of how it went away, was to award the Special Forces Tab. Also, BTW, if you leave an SF unit, you were not authorized to wear the green beret as part of your headgear. As an 18 series now, you can. I think it's a good thing that they went back to "Only those qualified wear it". No matter what color beret it is.

To the point of wearing your beret after you leave an SF unit, it's a simple matter of a pen stroke for a commander to have you transferred if they don't like you being 'non-uniform'.

Also, to various degrees, the black beret {now tan} was earned every day you stay in a Ranger BN. At least I know I earned mine every day I was there. I know there were people in the unit that many felt did not, i.e. cooks, PAC personnel, S-4, etc. But they did their jobs and I never didn't have what I needed because of them. Uniformity back then was everything. Us Rangers all looked the same no matter what. If there was a hard frost before Oct. 1, you can believe we stood there in formation freezing our asses off with sleeves rolled up. Or, sweating our asses off after Oct, 1 with sleeves rolled down.

One of the things we need to remember is when you go on to the next thing in life, what you did will stay with you. You know what you did. You don't have to prove it everyday to someone with a virtual salad bar on his uniform. You served, you did your best. Some do not. But, you aren't going to change that. If you push too hard on people, most of whom have no idea what you've been through, they take it as 'in your face'. I'm not thinking that's the personna the Army or even SF wants to push. I have taken tons of crap from people in aviation because I was never aviation in the military. I simply have to remind myself, I served, I served well, I went above and beyond the call whenever I could, I made it into the Rangers, stayed four years, Graduated Ranger School and Graduated SFUWO in that time.

I also don't take for granted what todays soldiers are doing. When I was in I spent four whole "whoo-hoo" days in combat. Some guys today have seen seven to eight even nine years of combat. That is a lot of sacrifice for our country and no one, IMO, needs to get put down for what headgear they wear.

So back to the real reason we are talking here, money spent/wasted on new camo patterns. I'll say that there should be a pool of camo uniforms best suited to each area of operations. Added: Each Unit deploying there should have access to them. Not allowing other units to use "YOUR" camo is effectively saying, "Stand out there and catch bullets." Beyond that, beyond distinctive headgear/insignia, I see no need to spend the money on branch-wide camo patterns that won't get used.

Thank you for your service, Sir.

I couldn't agree more! Especially your last paragraph. As a non-military person, who has many family members who served, I am incensed that there are "turf" wars over camouflage patterns. I think that the pattern/colors should be adjusted for theatre of operations, and all service branches should be able to use what best fits each unit's needs for their operations.
 
My statement regarding the "flap" it caused in SF is true is it not? Not an assumption. Also, I wouldn't call 4-5 years, "quicker than a monkey gets fucked".
The mandate became real, IIRC, in 1980. In 1983, when I went to Scuba school, everyone was wearing them the way you describe. Again, in 1984, when we went up there (Ft. Bragg) for training, it was that way.

The cliff note version of this is that many group commanders had non qualified pax wear patrol caps. Like most things, nothing changes overnight but Group commanders/SGM's have the ability to dictate uniform policy to a degree as long as it doesn't contradict or supersede AR 670-1.So the issues was handled at the ground level quickly but took some time to officially work its way through the system.

My statement, in no way demeans what the Green Beret means. As an award, not issued to someone who doesn't earn it. My understanding of how it went away, was to award the Special Forces Tab. Also, BTW, if you leave an SF unit, you were not authorized to wear the green beret as part of your headgear. As an 18 series now, you can. I think it's a good thing that they went back to "Only those qualified wear it". No matter what color beret it is.

That depends on where you are assigned and the commands stance. Typically speaking, 18 series pax will fill positions outside the regiment that require the person be 18 series qualified, such as a liaison, etc. and are still authorized to wear the Green Beret. If one leaves and say goes back to the infantry say the 82nd, then they would wear the maroon beret and still be authorized to wear the Special Forces Tab on their uniform. All of this came to be when SF became its own branch and USASOC was stood up, which some believe was an officer inspired idea that some view as a double edged sword, as you can imagine most officers who had been in a SF unit wanted retain the SF affiliation and the promotion benefits and not fall under the branch to which they had originally been assigned prior to coming to SF. All of this went away when SF was given its own Branch and Command and is what most are familiar with today.
 
It's either military industrial complex making a buck or it's because our shit somehow ends up being sold to the enemy, sort of forcing change. For instance, a whole lot of nations wear woodland and that clip of Assad they keep showing with his generals, they are all wearing interceptor molle vests and PASGT helmets. WTF? Guess ITAR only applies to peons.

And like Brigand Acutal said, there were four patterns. Four or five, I forget (one may have been the regular 3 color deserts). My company tested the ACU's which got the bid of course. They were looking for an urban camo that would work in the desert, that was the whole plan. We even called it urban camo. They didn't deploy with it though, they deployed with 3 color deserts and green gear (and no, it doesn't blend in at all, it stands right the fuck out). I still think the ACU works well for urban shit, particularly dusk to dawn, when we operated anyway.

But the best I've seen is the ATAC. It comes in desert and green. That shit blends in well. Really well. They should have adopted just those two across the board for everyone, IMO.
 
Sniper Uncle,

You're welcome. As many on here will probably say as well. A lot who come on here, being ex-military are owed a debt of gratitude.

Being a vet is being part of a great fraternity.
 
the only US cam pattern I have ever liked was the old 4 colour pattern , used in Vietnam , sort of like a Woodlands , but with out the tan , greens ,brown & black .