LaRue OBR 7.62

[jaycoux]

negative. Those dots represent the center of EACH 3-shot group fired. To verify, I have seen each of these targets and that is an accurate representation of every group that was shot. The gun shoots some good 3 shot groups, but everyone here knows what a 3 shot group will tell you.

j

 

[cjlane]

That seems pretty nucking futs to me, but I didnt stay at a Holliday Inn last night either.

 

[cjlane]

Did the groups continue to go up? In other words, is the lowest dot the first group and the highest dot the last group? Is there anyway to know the order the targets were shot?

 

[BCP]

negative. Those dots represent the center of EACH 3-shot group fired. To verify, I have seen each of these targets and that is an accurate representation of every group that was shot. The gun shoots some good 3 shot groups, but everyone here knows what a 3 shot group will tell you.

j

That's pretty funny they shipped it to you and said it was in-spec.

But hey you got BBQ size and a hat right?

To be fair I like the OBRs a lot but this finagling over barrels is an embarrassment. Larue will get it right but at the expense of their customers who paid top fucking dollar for these rifles and waited what, a year and a half? WTF???

 

[Thebelly]

Did the groups continue to go up? In other words, is the lowest dot the first group and the highest dot the last group? Is there anyway to know the order the targets were shot?

I can't say for certain in which order the groups were shot. I'm going left-to-right, top-to-bottom on the targets they sent me. There doesn't seem to be any consistency to the groups, regardless of the order. Even if I cherry pick by ordering them from smallest group to largets group, it still doesn't seem to follow any logical order. Here's the target that has each bullet on it:

 

[George Mac]

Just trying to remember what I read in Litz's new book, but I believe he defined accuracy and precision as separate functions. As in a rifle may shoot very tight groups as a measure of precision, but it does not center the groups and therefor is not accurate. By using these definitions it does appear that the rifle has legitimate "accuracy" problems. The folks at LaRue may be using the terms with the opposite definition. You may want to try this avenue of reasoning with them?

 

[cjlane]

Just trying to remember what I read in Litz's new book, but I believe he defined accuracy and precision as separate functions. As in a rifle may shoot very tight groups as a measure of precision, but it does not center the groups and therefor is not accurate. By using these definitions it does appear that the rifle has legitimate "accuracy" problems. The folks at LaRue may be using the terms with the opposite definition. You may want to try this avenue of reasoning with them?

This is correct and a good possible argument. They will probably just ignore it and hold their stance.

 

[Thebelly]

Just trying to remember what I read in Litz's new book, but I believe he defined accuracy and precision as separate functions. As in a rifle may shoot very tight groups as a measure of precision, but it does not center the groups and therefor is not accurate. By using these definitions it does appear that the rifle has legitimate "accuracy" problems. The folks at LaRue may be using the terms with the opposite definition. You may want to try this avenue of reasoning with them?

Here's the paragraph that I emailed to Mark Larue and to the guy that was helping me initially.


"The attached picture labeled 'LaRue Group Centers' shows the 'center' of each 3-shot group your shooter fired. The groups don't 'center' around a singular point of aim, and that's my problem. The gun isn't predictable about where it shoots, and it could be from 2MOA high (the very first group in the sequence of fire) to less than a half inch high (the third group in the sequence of fire). My interpretation is that although the gun is precise (it shoots good groups), it's not accurate (the groups aren't consistent)."


I'm not actually holding my breath while waiting for their response.

 

[George Mac]

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. The OBRs that I've spent time behind we're nice shooting rifles, I hope they can get the lighter barrel issue worked out.

 

[Cobracutter]

I think I get whats going on (feel free to shut me up if I'm Wrong)

They are shooting multiple 3 shot groups
When Overlayed, you get a shotgun pattern
Considering they are using the same load and same POI realitive on each target, you should be seeing a higher concentration not a stringy ass shotgun blast.

Larue guns shoot the tightest 1 shot group known to man?

 

[Thebelly]

I think I get whats going on (feel free to shut me up if I'm Wrong)

They are shooting multiple 3 shot groups
When Overlayed, you get a shotgun pattern
Considering they are using the same load and same POI realitive on each target, you should be seeing a higher concentration not a stringy ass shotgun blast.

Yeah that's correct. I thought that I was missing the point for a minute, so Jaycoux said he would help by providing an outsider's POV, for which I'm very grateful. Because I wanted multiple interpretations of this, I pulled the totality of the data into as many different possible formats as possible. Today is when I got the center of each group and then plotted those on a target (the one with the red dots). I mean, the center of the three dot targets is what the Army uses as showing whether or not you're 'zeroed'. The Army's doctrinal 3-shot groups is pretty darn antiquated, and no one uses that anymore... a point that, when I brought it up to the LaRue employee that was helping me, got Mark to interject and to tell me to just sell the rifle.

 

[Cobracutter]

Yeah that's correct. I thought that I was missing the point for a minute, so Jaycoux said he would help by providing an outsider's POV, for which I'm very grateful. Because I wanted multiple interpretations of this, I pulled the totality of the data into as many different possible formats as possible. Today is when I got the center of each group and then plotted those on a target (the one with the red dots). I mean, the center of the three dot targets is what the Army uses as showing whether or not you're 'zeroed'. The Army's doctrinal 3-shot groups is pretty darn antiquated, and no one uses that anymore... a point that, when I brought it up to the LaRue employee that was helping me, got Mark to interject and to tell me to just sell the rifle.

I would be really pissed to. Larue is bassicaly saying (If I understand) that the gun is garenteed to shoot 3 shots under 1 MOA, but who knows where that 3 shot group will be. How the fuck is someone supposed to shoot when they don't know where their groups will print?

Even the army requires you to get 5 out 6 (2, 3 shot strings) within a 4cm circle at 25meters. This simulates a Man size chest at 300m. According to Larue, one group could be at his feet and one group could be 5 feet over his head.... but each group will be tight....

Makes Zero fucking sense on their part.

 

[bluto77]

They shot 14 3-shot groups out of the rifle, with an average group size of 0.94". They claim that the gun is still within their factory specs.

The picture below shows the geometric 'center' of each group. Notice how the groups don't 'center' around a singular point of aim? ......it could be from 2MOA high (the very first group in their sequence of fire) to less than a half inch high (the third group in their sequence of fire).

As previously stated, I have an OBR, so I am interested in this. It was shooting 1.5" to 3" groups when I first got it. I had to work to get them down, but now it runs at sub MOA with 5 shot groups. At any rate, I don't understand the testing they did on your rifle.

Is the POA (point of aim) for each group the same? And is that POA the large dark dot in the middle of the dark square?
How can I tell which is the 1st group in the sequence and which is the 3rd group? Actually, how can I tell what order they went in?
Do you know which groups were shot with your M118 ammo and which were shot with their FGMM?

I do understand the red dot is the center of each 3 shot groups POI (point of impact), but if the POA for each group is the large dark dot in the center of the square, then something is definitely wrong.

 

[Dominus]

Yeah that's correct. I thought that I was missing the point for a minute, so Jaycoux said he would help by providing an outsider's POV, for which I'm very grateful. Because I wanted multiple interpretations of this, I pulled the totality of the data into as many different possible formats as possible. Today is when I got the center of each group and then plotted those on a target (the one with the red dots). I mean, the center of the three dot targets is what the Army uses as showing whether or not you're 'zeroed'. The Army's doctrinal 3-shot groups is pretty darn antiquated, and no one uses that anymore... a point that, when I brought it up to the LaRue employee that was helping me, got Mark to interject and to tell me to just sell the rifle.

Just sell the rifle.

 

[Dominus]

I think I get whats going on (feel free to shut me up if I'm Wrong)

Shut up.

 

[Thebelly]

Just sell the rifle.

That's a familiar tune, Domino.

You offering to buy?

 

[Thebelly]

I think I get whats going on (feel free to shut me up if I'm Wrong)

Shut up.

Yeah, he was talking to me. Not that Cobra needs me to defend him, but I'll actually go out on a limb here and say that you've got some vested interest in this topic, specifically, there Domino.

 

[Thebelly]

As previously stated, I have an OBR, so I am interested in this. It was shooting 1.5" to 3" groups when I first got it. I had to work to get them down, but now it runs at sub MOA with 5 shot groups. At any rate, I don't understand the testing they did on your rifle.

Is the POA (point of aim) for each group the same? And is that POA the large dark dot in the middle of the dark square?
How can I tell which is the 1st group in the sequence and which is the 3rd group? Actually, how can I tell what order they went in?
Do you know which groups were shot with your M118 ammo and which were shot with their FGMM?

I do understand the red dot is the center of each 3 shot groups POI (point of impact), but if the POA for each group is the large dark dot in the center of the square, then something is definitely wrong.

About the POA: My assumption is that it was consistent throughout larue's testing. They didn't offer that info, and I didn't think to ask. At that point I didn't have any reason to question it.

I was only sent pictures of targets. They didn't have a sequence labeled on them.

These groups are only the FGMM provided by LaRue. I did not include the m118lr data, as it would muddy the waters. The FGMM was a larger sample size, and it was something under their control. I wanted them to do the testing as they see fit and provide me the results. In this case, I have further questions about their results, and mark larue's response was to sell it (that familiar tune I mentioned a couple posts up).

 

[poison123]

Dominus ain't Mark....his ego wouldn't let him use a alias.....

 

[Thebelly]

Dominus ain't Mark....his ego wouldn't let him use a alias.....

Maybe not Mark, but I'll almost bet that it's someone close.

I DID write an email to mark today, asking for his interpretation of the two pics I posted. I haven't gotten a response yet. I doubt that anyone there has the nerve to try and refute the data. It's THEIR data, and now it's all over here.... Ya know what? I really want as many opinions as possible on this. Stand by.....

 

[Thebelly]

I've started a new thread and posted the targets themselves in there. Seeing the analysis that I've done, I'm now asking for others' opinions.

Please interpret the data as you see fit.

 

[Skeld1]

I think I get whats going on (feel free to shut me up if I'm Wrong)

Shut up.

What, are you 12? The gun hobby has the biggest assholes out of all the hobbies I dabble in.

 

[Cobracutter]

Dominus ain't Mark....his ego wouldn't let him use a alias.....

Its probally one of his idiot workers..... most likely the guy who keeps fucking up the barrels.

 

[Dominus]

Its probally one of his idiot workers..... most likely the guy who keeps fucking up the barrels.

The Army, and VA, can help you with your PTSD.

 

[Thebelly]

The Army, and VA, can help you with your PTSD.

What about mine? Hook a brotha up!

 

[Dominus]

what about mine? Hook a brotha up!

(800) 273-talk (800-273-8255)

 

[Thebelly]

(800) 273-talk (800-273-8255)

Why would you give me your home phone number?

Btw: I'm not suicidal, and not all those afflicted with PTSD have suicidal tendencies. Just an FYI.

 

[Dominus]

Why would you give me your home phone number?

Btw: I'm not suicidal, and not all those afflicted with PTSD have suicidal tendencies. Just an FYI.

Just trying to help you guys with your anger issues.

 

[Thebelly]

Just trying to help you guys with your anger issues.

I'm really not that angry, though. I'm pretty darn disappointed with my LaRue rifle, and even more disappointed in their version of customer service.

I really do appreciate everyone taking a peek at my interpretations of the targets that I was sent.

What are your thoughts, Domino?

 

[gimpy]

Just trying to help you guys with your anger issues.

I don't think these guys would be upset if they could get something worth what they pay for it. After seeing this, I will make sure to never purchase a Larue product. The only Larue rifle I have laid hands on was being sold by a friend because it had issues. Quite frankly, why would anyone who bothers to research products buy from someone who will F$%^ them, and not even have the common courtesy to give a reach-around.

Anyone as arrogant and self-righteous as Larue or yourself (it appears that you have a vested interest in Larue Tactical) needs to be financially starved.

 

[E. Bryant]

Just trying to help you guys with your anger issues.

It would seem that the most helpful thing would be to deliver a rifle that lives up to its promise of "maximum accuracy".

 

[Thebelly]

I don't think these guys would be upset if they could get something worth what they pay for it.

I've heard more than once that I'm looking for the magical dragon that CAN'T exist with a PredatAR: accurate performance from a lightweight barrel.

If I knew that the gun was .11" from the first group, then went up to 1.67" with following groups, I'd STFU.

The targetry doesn't support that.

 

[FALex]

I just got my JP LRP-07 yesterday (hip hip hoo-fucking-ray, by the way!)

It only came with one barrel.

They neglected to put some random slug putter in the box. I'm devastated, can you guys tell? Oh yeah, it was about 14 weeks out that my order was placed.

I still can't believe those poor SOB's on arfcom...if it were anyone else, they'd initiate a "firemission" against the bullshit actions of that company. My local AR dealer (got me the JP), said he finally had to call LT and request all of his money back from them as his customers had demanded their money back from him. At least he saw the light...

 

[bob190e]

I have to chime in with my experience. I recently canceled my order with Larue. I have had a PredatOBR 556 16" on order since 8/1/2012. For the first 9 months I patiently waited and didn’t call or email. In September 2013 I decided to email. My email was answered with this

"Bob, We have only just begun to ship the 762 PredatOBR rifles and there has been no word on when the 556 PredatOBR rifles will be ready. At this time we do not know when to expect your rifle to be ready to ship. Every effort will be made to make it as soon as possible, but per Mark Larue, we cannot say that it will be ready by/before any date."

That was sent to me 13 months after ordering it. I had an employee of my LGS call the other day to see if they could get anywhere and all they were told was that they have not started shipping the 556 PredatOBR rifles yet.

I really wanted a Larue and still do, but I canceled my order because I don’t want to wait anymore nor do I want to get the run around when I call and email to see when my $2,400 item may arrive.

 

[Cobracutter]

Why would you give me your home phone number?

Btw: I'm not suicidal, and not all those afflicted with PTSD have suicidal tendencies. Just an FYI.

Don't Worry... Homicidal Thoughts come WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Before Suicidal Thoughts can ever manifest.....

 

[Thebelly]

I have to chime in with my experience. I recently canceled my order with Larue. I have had a PredatOBR 556 16" on order since 8/1/2012. For the first 9 months I patiently waited and didn’t call or email. In September 2013 I decided to email. My email was answered with this

"Bob, We have only just begun to ship the 762 PredatOBR rifles and there has been no word on when the 556 PredatOBR rifles will be ready. At this time we do not know when to expect your rifle to be ready to ship. Every effort will be made to make it as soon as possible, but per Mark Larue, we cannot say that it will be ready by/before any date."

That was sent to me 13 months after ordering it. I had an employee of my LGS call the other day to see if they could get anywhere and all they were told was that they have not started shipping the 556 PredatOBR rifles yet.

I really wanted a Larue and still do, but I canceled my order because I don’t want to wait anymore nor do I want to get the run around when I call and email to see when my $2,400 item may arrive.

I found my PredatAR at a LGS. I paid retail pricing for it. I was almost 14 months into the wait for the PredatAR that had on order. I already had one, so I just cancelled the order.

The problems I had with the gun have all been worked out.

 

[mikenewgun87]

Good things come to those who wait....said no one ever

 

[MSTN]

I bought an early Larue .308 OBR with 20" barrel plus one of their first .308 PredatARs. I've had great success with both and have added an 18" and just recently a 16" PredatOBR to the family:

Very first group at 100 yards with the 18":

It's shooting tighter now:

I will freely admit that I'm just crazy about these rifles.

How does that old adage go? "Each barrel is a law unto itself." OK, so no doubt I got a good one in the 18". But, not every group I've shot with it is that pretty. That's on me, not the gun, I am afraid. Lots more look like this:

Or worse.

But, when I shoot these less than photogenic groups, I don't blame the gun. Reason: It's me - driving the gun inconsistently.

I'm reasonably confident these rifles will shoot well in terms of group size, so long as the shooter physically addresses the gun the same way every shot. How a weapon is "driven" has a remarkable impact on precisely where it shoots. It seems like gas guns are especially fussy, much less forgiving than bolt guns in this regard.

As an example, a good friend shot my Larue OBR at 600 yards from the prone for his first time. He's a very accomplished shooter from other disciplines, and produced a nice, slightly sub-MOA group with M118LR, on his first try. With the same ammo, I struggled just to keep up, and shot five into the same size group, on the same target, under identical conditions, with the same ammo. But, my group was 18" left of his.

He fired from what I call an "old fashioned" bladed prone position, much like we were taught in the USMC in the seventies, the rifle shooting equivalent of a Weaver stance. My prone position is different. I prone out with my back aligned with the rifle, legs spread evenly, etc. As might be expected, his impacts were to the right of mine. All my buddy would have had to do is make an appropriate windage adjustment to have point of aim and point of impact coincide nicely.

So - I try to worry less about the gun and more about how I manage the gun, these days.

A 5.56 gas gun you can hold like a new baby and get great results. Managing a .308 gas gun properly is more like escorting a drunk to the door.

 

[ngodwetrust21]

I bought MSTN's old 20" OBR. Gun shoots like a champ with the reloads, easily under a half minute!

Thanks again for the rifle MSTN! What are the odds of me running into you on the hide!?!?

 

[Required one]

There was a guy by the name of Alfred at LaRue and he was doing the same thing with Mark's customers and he got the boot. When I call most co I always get the operators info and then ask my question. I found they are nicer and you can report then if they get out of line. E-mail Mark or John Weir I'm sure they can get you a date.

 

[MSTN]

I bought MSTN's old 20" OBR. Gun shoots like a champ with the reloads, easily under a half minute!

Thanks again for the rifle MSTN! What are the odds of me running into you on the hide!?!?

I don't think that rifle will ever disappoint.

Good shooting,

MSTN