600 vs 1000 dillema

[Cat64]

Good Day Gentleman…or Ladies (I had the privilege of knowing one particular lady who is a very avid and savvy competitive shooter)
I have joined this wonderful forum a few months back. One of the questions I posed at that time was concerning my desire to gather some pertinent information regarding perhaps building my own rifle. Wow…I was bombarded (no pun intended) with a myriad of replies ranging from very polite knowledgeable advise to very rude and crass tones. However, to my delight much of the overall data I collected was very helpful and I decided it was best to take some time, “shoot a lot” (as one person put it) and then formulate a more informed decision regarding the platform I want. I think I am at that point now…and here I am again seeking your input and recommendations.
Currently I shoot a .243 Win [I perfected the loads to shooting under MOA to 200 yards] and a .308 Win [got the right combination of case, primer, powder and bullet to result in under MOA up to 400 yards]. At this point I know that some of you are already debating whether the accuracy could improve or that the distance could be enhanced, but I am OK where I am at this point in time after lots of practice with this two calibers.
This being said I want to take it one step further. What I want is to be able to shoot under MOA if not better to 1000 yards. I am not interested in shooting any animals…all I want is shooting for accuracy. That is my goal; however I would like first to become dead accurate at 600 yards. With these two ideas in mind I started doing some research trying to find out if there is any rifle out there which will allow me to garner success at both distances. Well, I am yet to find an exact answer to this dilemma.
I considered then finding the best platform which will allow me to be adept to the first milestone (600 yards). I know I like a rifle with as little recoil as possible, a rifle that would give me the ability to customize, to find reloading supplies for, and would not cost a fortune. While doing my reading I came across two calibers I thought might be of interest. As far as ballistics is concerned I learned that a 7 mm-08 could perhaps acquire a longer shot than a .308 but I am not convinced yet on other characteristics of this caliber. The other one I liked was a 6mm BR or a Dasher. Perhaps is best to stop here for now and open up this discussion for debate and input. If you are still reading, I thank you and wish to you and yours a great Thanksgiving season and many blessings. My name is J.C.

 

[jbailey]

You want to shoot a MOA at 1000?

Step 1:
How is your muzzle velocity variation? Run the math in a ballistics program to see where you need to be in order for the ballistic path to hold <10" of vertical. Simple math there. Compare it to your current rifle's load ES... is it under or over? If under, move to step 2. If over, correct it (see reloading section for details on that).

Step 2:
Wind deflection. What wind conditions do you want to shoot 1 moa in? Calm, consistent wind, or volatile wind? If calm consistent wind, you are all set to go, get out there and shoot. If the desired objective involves volatile wind, well you have a lot of work to do. Get a Kestrel and start calling wind all the time, i.e. while out walking the dog, look at the wind conditions and estimate a speed, then look at your Kestrel. Keep doing this. Over time, you will start to get better and you will go from +/- 5mph error rates to +/- 3mph. You are still a long ways from 1moa at 1000yds however, because +/- 3mph = ~30" for a 308/175gr SMK. So maybe you need to invest in a bigger ballistic signature... or spend more time getting better at wind calls. The challenging +/- 1mph will get you there with a 308/175gr SMK, but calling +/- 1mph is damn tough.

Good luck! I look forward to others input on this question...

 

[steve123]

Hi Cat,

A 6BR or Dasher would be a great choice with heavy bullets for 600Y, and at 1000Y providing the wind is down. Eliseo makes a tube gun rifle kit for the 6BR that takes his proprietary 5 round mags or you can build one as a single shot.

7-08 recoils just like your 308 with the 162, 168 grain bullets. A muzzle brake can be installed to reduce recoil.

I'd give the edge in accuracy and efficiency to the BR cartridges, obviously they recoil less. If I were looking for ultimate accuracy shooting long range with low recoil I'd do a 6 Dasher. I'd also have it built with all top of the line components, think BAT action, benchrest stock, Krieger or Bartlein barrel and a gunsmith "known" for putting out winning rifles.

I've been shooting 6x47 Lapua for 6 years now. It is a well balanced cartridge. Think of it as a long Dasher that feeds well out of AICS magazines.

 

[Cat64]

Thank you. Steve you wrote "I've been shooting 6x47 Lapua for 6 years now. It is a well balanced cartridge. Think of it as a long Dasher that feeds well out of AICS magazines". I was looking at this alternative as well but did not have a chance to research too much. How is the recoil on your rifle and what is its performance? Hard to find a good one? Where would I start to get my hands on the platform I am looking for? Must I purchase the whole thing or it is better to go for parts? SOmething like a 5 shot mag vs single shot?...I know many questions

 

[Cat64]

Thank you JBailey for your reply. I am looking forward as to how this goes. What I shoot now is a Tikka T3 Lite. I added a muzzle break and some weight in the stock but perhaps to be able to accomplish what you are suggesting I might need to get a different weapon. Thoughts?

 

[BillyGoatMachine]

I honestly think the best thing for you to do is join a rifle club and start meeting the guys that shoot at 1000 regularly. Hang out at comps and see what they are shooting, and how they are doing at those distances. Check out what gear they are using and get behind some rifles. This will also give you an idea of what kind of realistic goals to set for yourself. Make some new friends I've also learned that quality rifles and optics do cost a small fortune, depending on what tax bracket your in………. Best of luck!

 

[BoilerUP]

A 6BR pushing a 107 SMK has better 1000yd drop/drift than the typical 308/175 SMK combination.

Cheaper bullets
High quality, relatively cheap (for Lapua) brass
WAY less recoil

Only issue with a 6BR is making it reliable as a mag-fed repeater.

 

[Danco411]

I can give you my thoughts as a relatively new to long range shooter. I'm a tinkerer at heart and started assembling bolt rifles before I even learned to shoot them right, contrary to the advice of this august forum. I was an AR guy for years but got tired of mixing and matching variations of parts to end up at the same place. An AR is an AR with the only difference being better parts making the better rifle. Although some of my AR's were extremely accurate, the long range game is much different. The AR can be an accurate platform for long range but the bolt rifle is where it's at. For several years I only had access to 400 yards and all the rifles I purchased or assembled (mainly AR's and Savages) did well to 400 yards with not alot of difficulty. 400 yards is not long range. Last year I joined a 1000 yard UKD range and have been shooting long distance all year. I can unequivically tell you the rifle and caliber is only a small part of equation. There are many calibers that can be accurate at the 1000 yard distance, especially the venerable .308. As mentioned above the vertical is easily calculated and the variable is in your ammunition. The better you you make your rounds, the lower the ES will be and the less the variable in elevation. The hard part is the horizontal. Wind is a biotch and the bane of every long range shooter. I have spent the last year learning the wind and it still frustrates me to no end! But then if there is no challenge we would not be interested would we?

I started out at 1,000 with the .308. My elevations were always spot on. I missed more from wind than I care to admit. Although I still have my .308 I have now moved to .260 Remington just for the ballistic advantage with the high BC bullets and speed. I also enjoy shooting my "big bullet" 22-250 at 1000. The 80g A-Max and 90 VLD are awesome .224 bullets that do very well in the wind if you get them moving fast enough. I have the 80 Hornady leaving the barrel at 3200 FPS which has excellent terminal ballistics at 1000 yards. I make more hits with the 22-250 than with my .308!

So for caliber I say pick what floats your boat. There are dozens that do well as long as you have availability of a high BC match projectile. As for rifles you can be just as accurate at long range with an $800 Savage as a $3,000 custom if you have the right ammunition and good glass. Glass is more important than the rifle. You can successfully make hits at 1K with a $500 optic but you will become a much better shooter and be much more consistent with higher quality glass. Spend more on the glass than on the rifle and you'll be fine. Finally the best advice I have recieved on the hide is to shoot more. Although I can't get to the 1K range all the time I find myself shooting smaller and smaller targets at shorter distances. At my local 100 yard range it's all about small groups. At my 400 steel range nothing bigger than 3". Send as many downrange as you can afford and do it in all conditions. Rain, snow, heat and wind. Especially wind!!!! Over the past year I am throwing less and less lead into the dirt as I practice.

Hope this helps and take it for what it's worth.

 

[steve123]

Thank you. Steve you wrote "I've been shooting 6x47 Lapua for 6 years now. It is a well balanced cartridge. Think of it as a long Dasher that feeds well out of AICS magazines". I was looking at this alternative as well but did not have a chance to research too much. How is the recoil on your rifle and what is its performance? Hard to find a good one? Where would I start to get my hands on the platform I am looking for? Must I purchase the whole thing or it is better to go for parts? SOmething like a 5 shot mag vs single shot?...I know many questions

The recoil on my 6x47L will be similar to your 243. It shoots the same bullets at almost the same speeds as a 243. Another way to offset recoil is to build a heavy rifle. My 6x47L weighs 22 lbs with scope and is braked so the recoil isn't much more than a 223 hunting rifle. The load I'm using currently is 105 Berger hybrids at 3140 fps.

You'll have to decide which long range shooting sports you'd prefer to be involved with to determine whether a single shot or repeater is more beneficial for the discipline. Long range Benchrest and Fclass usually use single shots. Tactical match and Field course shooters use repeaters. It's common knowledge that guys with repeaters are way more sexy though, LOL.

skkeeter has given good advise. Find a shooting club close by and see what those guys are shooting.

 

[Shanerbanner10]

or just be a boss and make the .308 work! Its quite do-able and many guys have done it. Screw spending more money on another rifle and stuff. I would just work on the SD and ES of your loads and shoot either the 155's at 2900~ fps or stick to the mid-heavies like the 175's or even higher depending on the twist of your barrel. I really prefer the .308 for the learning curve that comes with it at range. Once this learning curve is developed it makes a huge difference in your performance behind a better suited caliber for that distance.

Simply put, screw wasting money on another rifle or 'better caliber' and short shooting more and putting together better and more consistent reloads.

 

[nchunter243]

What twist is in your 243? It should shine pretty well at 600-1000 yards running a 105 Berger, 107 SMK or 115 DTAC. If the recoil on the 243 is still to high for your liking dont over look a 223 with a 1:7 throated for 70-90 gr bullets. The br family is highly accurate and efficient but as mentioned there can be feeding issues. Personally I love the 7-08 but I don't see it doing what you want, or doing anything your 243 or 308 won't do.

 

[RobertB]

How is your .243 setup? Or the .308. If the .243 is set up correctly it will be great at 600 and 1000 yds with the right bullet. If not then maybe a simple rebbl might be the ticket if you don't need another rifle.

It doesn't have to take anything fancy to get there. Are you shooting from a bench 100% of the time?
Are you wanting to shoot matches with it, either any type of positional or maybe strictly BR or F-Class?

Those will be 2 major deciding factors.

Once that is decided you can take a wide array of cartridges and do well.

Some choices are:
6BR-not awesome in the wind but many have done well with them. Very accurate round with very little recoil.
6X47 Lapua- Great brass, easy to load for. Good Ballistics. Very accurate
6XC- Great efficient round-Not super ballistics but not a bbl burner either-Great brass, many people do well with this
6BRX-Another like the 6XC
6Creedmoor-Limited on brass but not bad-A lot of new info coming out on this nowadays, getting into a little bbl burner when pushed, but not terrible.
.243- I love it!, BBL burner when pushed but it has great ballistics with heavy bullets good brass selection. You know bout this though LOL

6.5's: Still in the same ballpark as the 6's in many ways. Few plus sides to these are: bigger holes to see, more lead to make splash in either dirt or steel. Better bbl life. And it's more borderline between the 7's and 6's so its a best of both worlds. Recoil wont be much more and you still get great ballistics.

Many great choices here too, some being:

6.5 Creedmoor- Good factory ammo, many people shoot this so there is a ton of info on it. Brass is limited but hasn't slowed me down or caused any ill effects.
You can reload too but have the option of shooting either at any given time.

6.5x47 Lapua-Very accurate and easy to load for round. It's efficient and not a bbl burner. Brass is limited but is the best (Lapua)

.260 Rem- Some factory ammo that isn't too bad-SW Ammo makes it for decent price and I have had great results from them. Wide selection of brass- I stick with win 7-08 brass in bulk but also have a few 100 Lapua brass. I recommend the Lapua or win depending on your budget. If shooting in magazines, some consideration must be made but its a very successful round. Mostly in field type shooting, BR guys don't shoot it much but it could do well.

6.5 SLR-A lot of people like this round, no experience here. Would like to try it. A lot of benefits here if you strictly handload.

I would stay away from the 7's myself looking at your wants but a lot of people like the 7-08 and the 7 creedmoor. 7-08 might have some factory match ammo out. IDK.


These are just SOME choices as there are many. You already have a 243 and a 308 which can do well and maybe you don't need anything else.
Any of the above mentioned rounds can do 1k no problem when setup right and will have a lot of people in the know here with info.
You will not go wrong with any of these choices as they are common and do the job you want done well.

It sounds like you are doing your homework and practicing and doing well.
It really all depends on what type of shooting need you have.
Be more specific on your shooting type and others can help you out more.



Good Luck to you Sir!!!

 

[Cat64]

9-1/8" twist for my .243 rifle. Recoil is not the issue for neither of my rifles now after adding the muzzle break on the .308. Thank for the info. Never tried this rifle for precision in excess of 200 yards. It shoots very well an Amax 87 grain with 34 grains of H4895. Is there anything else I might adjust to my Tikka T3 Lite besides adding the muzzle beak and increasing the weight of the stock? The twist for that rifle is 1:11.

 

[Cat64]

Robert wrote "How is your .243 setup? Or the .308. If the .243 is set up correctly it will be great at 600 and 1000 yds. with the right bullet"

Well...well...what would be a correct set up my friend? What I have are standard factory rifles. I added better quality scopes and rings; on my 308 I added a muzzle break and increased the weight at the butt of the stock for more stability. I mostly shoot from the bench rest using sand bags (up to 200yards) and now I want to shoot more to larger distances. I am qualified to shoot at the 1000 yards range where most people shoot prone. I am reloading my own ammo and I am working up different loads for either caliber.

 

[Cat64]

Also, Robert your info says you are in Forest LA. I am in Shreveport. Very likely I will end up driving very often soon in your direction to visit my son at a Navy base in Mississippi.

 

[Wannashootit]

From my own experience with a 7-08, which is "pretty capable" as a contender, especially with the high-BC bullets I shoot with it...

600 yards, is pretty much a cakewalk if you're a good shooter. I'm nothing exceptional, shoot only once a month or so...but I can bang the 10" steel at 565 yards at the range we frequent pretty much as fast as I can rack the bolt. At this distance, with any of the capable long-range calibers, you're just beginning to experience the real challenge with doping the wind.

At 1000 yards (I recently posted a thread on this dilemma) it's like being on a different planet. Hits all around the plate- but most of the time- "so close!". Some of this is attributable to the geography of this particular range (very high berms on either side, the last 400 is nicknamed the "ditch"), but some is also the fact that drift becomes so much more of a factor as velocity really begins to drop off. In my pretty limited experience at 1000 so far, it seems to me that this discipline is far more related to trigger time, than splitting hairs over whether one bullet/load/caliber is incrementally "better" than the next. That's important for comps, but not so much for the casual shooter just looking to connect with the plate at that range.