208 AMAX in .308 ? BERGER JUGGERNAUT LOAD DATA?

[mark5pt56]

I was thinking of trying some .208 grain AMAX and was curious if there's any advantage of these over the 175SMK or 178 AMAX? Two barrel lengths, 22" and 24" and would stay within safe pressures of course and want them to feed from either AI AE mag or internal FN. The AI is 1n12 and the FN will be 1n11.

I have a nice load with 4064 and the 175SMK used in the AI, 43 grains, averaging 2650 range. Is 4064 good with the 208's? I was thinking of the 180 Accubonds and Berger hunting hybrids once they're out as well. Intended for long range(1000) target and hunting, probably 400 max(deer sized).

Mark

 

[lte82]

1:12 is a little slow for the 208 but the 1:11 may work.

They are not a bad bullet for the 308, and will do a lot better at 1000 than the 168/175 in terms of wind drift.

Check out the berger 185 juggernaut, as they have about the same bc as the 208 amax, but will launch at 150-200 fps faster and the end result is a good bit less bullet drop with the same or better wind drift compared the 208 amax. Also the 185 juggernaut will work with the 1:12 twist just fine so you can run them in both rifles.

My pet load for my 1:12 26" 308 is also 43gr imr 4064 with the 168/175 pills. I also see about 2650 fps. Great load that works really well at 600 but at 1000 it struggles a little. Ive been meaning to work up a load for the 185s hopefully in the 2650 range as I think that would be a winning ticket at the long line.

 

[nuclear_shooter]

I think the recommended twist is 1:10, some guys say 1:11 will stabalize, you'd have to test it out. I don't really see the advantage, unless you got a 30 cal mag.

 

[mark5pt56]

Ok, cool, Is that juggernaut one of the hybrids or the secant type? And how is it for hunting or should I wait for the Hybrid hunting line? Why do you get more velocity out of the Bergers?

Oh, what about the mag length?

I see two juggernauts-found it!--ok to hunt with?
http://www.bergerbullets.com/wp_super_faq/30418-vs-30107/
http://buybergerbullets.3dcartstores.com/30-Cal-185-Grain-Match-Juggernaut-Target_p_69.html
http://buybergerbullets.3dcartstores.com/30-Cal-185-Grain-Match-Juggernaut-OTM-Tactical_p_154.html

 

[40xs]

I have a 11.25 twist, 29 inch match chamber rig that I tried the 208 gr. @ 1k. Did not work for me. the target looked like I was aiming at everything but the center. I went back to my 185's. Now the 208's grouped ok at 100yds. so to me it looks as if the B.C. drops drastically when the velocity and twist is not sufficient. Like others have mentioned, in a 300 mag. with tighter twist they may work well at distance. A few guys have said that they get good results with the 208's in the .308, but they don't mention how far they are shooting. Also, there is a difference in hitting steel, and trying to hit the X ring on paper. There's something about hearing the "clang" of steel that gives you a feeling that you have a good load....until you use the same load on paper at 1000yds. and realize that the group ain't all that good.

 

[mark5pt56]

I appreciate it, I think I will try some of the OTM juggernauts, Powder Valley has some in, will order some more 4064 as well, only have 1lb'ers now though. Best as I can tell, the 185 j's aren't as finicky on seating depth?
Anyone have any data for the Berger 185's and IMR 4064?

 

[Dacam]

I don't have data on imr4064, but 43.0 of Varget
is the shit in my 24" LW 1-12 twist.

 

[Shibby!]

No problem with stability on a 5R 11.25 twist. 208Gr AMAX, 46.1 RL17, Lupua Brass, FGMM primers. Loaded long (well over mag length)

With no wind I can ring the 12" 1000yard bell pretty much every time. It may not be ultra accurate, but neither am I. I can only shoot to 1100y because of lack of elevation on my scope. That changes next week with 125MOA adjustment. Whoo hoo!

 

[bruddah]

I have a 11.25 twist, 29 inch match chamber rig that I tried the 208 gr. @ 1k. Did not work for me. the target looked like I was aiming at everything but the center. I went back to my 185's. Now the 208's grouped ok at 100yds. so to me it looks as if the B.C. drops drastically when the velocity and twist is not sufficient. Like others have mentioned, in a 300 mag. with tighter twist they may work well at distance. A few guys have said that they get good results with the 208's in the .308, but they don't mention how far they are shooting. Also, there is a difference in hitting steel, and trying to hit the X ring on paper. There's something about hearing the "clang" of steel that gives you a feeling that you have a good load....until you use the same load on paper at 1000yds. and realize that the group ain't all that good.

Do you think a 1:10 twist would have worked better?

 

[jagged77]

I've tested the 208's in a 26" 1:12 twist and at 100 yards, they stabilised and were sub MOA apart from the max last load. I didn't shoot them at longer range as I sold the rifle shortly afterwards. I used RE17 and tested from 46 - 49 grains.

JBM states a 1.273 stability factor which is right on the border line:


Stability
Input Data
Caliber: 0.308 in Bullet Weight: 208.0 gr
Bullet Length: 1.520 in Plastic Tip Length: 0.140 in
Muzzle Velocity: 2400.0 ft/s Barrel Twist: 12.0 in
Temperature: 10.0 °C Pressure: 1005.00 mb
Output Data
Stability: 1.273
08/12/13 05:16, JBM/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

An increase in temperature and velocity however would put the factor over 1.3 which is desirable.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

208's typically stabilize in 1:12's but their velocity is less than ideal in 308 IMO.

The juggernaut is a great bullet and is what I'm running in my AX 24" Bartlien. It's giving me 2700FPS .018 off the lands with 45gr of Varget in Lapua brass with a WLR primer. During load development it had an ES of 9 and ES of 1 for 5 rounds so I didn't do any further development.

The Juggernaut Target and OTM Tactical are the same bullet. I bought the juggernaut marked boxes for development and shooting and didn't have enough to shoot a match so a buddy hooked me up with a box of the off white OTM Tactical bullets. The bearing surface was identical. I got to a stage where I only had a few juggernauts left so I loaded a mag with both and engaging the same target with both the POI was the same.

I also shot three deer with them and they performed as well as any other bullet will. I highly recommend them.

 

[Steve Williams]

208's typically stabilize in 1:12's but their velocity is less than ideal in 308 IMO.

The juggernaut is a great bullet and is what I'm running in my AX 24" Bartlien. It's giving me 2700FPS .018 off the lands with 45gr of Varget in Lapua brass with a WLR primer. During load development it had an ES of 9 and ES of 1 for 5 rounds so I didn't do any further development.

The Juggernaut Target and OTM Tactical are the same bullet. I bought the juggernaut marked boxes for development and shooting and didn't have enough to shoot a match so a buddy hooked me up with a box of the off white OTM Tactical bullets. The bearing surface was identical. I got to a stage where I only had a few juggernauts left so I loaded a mag with both and engaging the same target with both the POI was the same.

I also shot three deer with them and they performed as well as any other bullet will. I highly recommend them.

Ditto on the OTM and VLD's being the same (Berger part #'s 30107 and 30418 respectively)

Glad to hear some others are also pushing these 2700+ through a .308.
I get some looks of disbelief when I tell folks the MV I get with the 185's and a low density powder.

1-10" twist 24" barreled Savage FCP-SR

 

[redneckbmxer24]

It's the "juggernaut match" and OTM Tactical" that are the same bullet, the VLD is completely different.

I went all the way up to 46gr doing a ladder/pressure test and I just barely got some crap blown by the primer and velocity was around 2740. I had also loaded a round at 45.5 for pressure and another 5 to test ES/SD and they were around 2725. You can definitely push them fast safely.

 

[nuclear_shooter]

1:12 is a little slow for the 208 but the 1:11 may work.

They are not a bad bullet for the 308, and will do a lot better at 1000 than the 168/175 in terms of wind drift.

Check out the berger 185 juggernaut, as they have about the same bc as the 208 amax, but will launch at 150-200 fps faster and the end result is a good bit less bullet drop with the same or better wind drift compared the 208 amax. Also the 185 juggernaut will work with the 1:12 twist just fine so you can run them in both rifles.

My pet load for my 1:12 26" 308 is also 43gr imr 4064 with the 168/175 pills. I also see about 2650 fps. Great load that works really well at 600 but at 1000 it struggles a little. Ive been meaning to work up a load for the 185s hopefully in the 2650 range as I think that would be a winning ticket at the long line.

I'm not sure why you said they have almost the same BC... the 185 Juggernaut is 0.553, the 208 AMAX is 0.648. Not saying one is better but that's hardly the same.

In a 308, I'd probably go with the Juggernaut over the 208 gr AMAX (esp given his barrel twist), but in a magnum, the 208 might be a better choice.

 

[Steve Williams]

It's the "juggernaut match" and OTM Tactical" that are the same bullet, the VLD is completely different.

I went all the way up to 46gr doing a ladder/pressure test and I just barely got some crap blown by the primer and velocity was around 2740. I had also loaded a round at 45.5 for pressure and another 5 to test ES/SD and they were around 2725. You can definitely push them fast safely.

That's why I gave part #'s, because the names are sometimes confused/mis applied, I'm especially guilty of this.
To confuse it even more, I have several boxes of the OTM Tactical that are labeled "Juggernaut OTM Tactical"



From Bergers FAQ section of their website -

What is the difference between the 30 Cal 185 Grain Match Juggernaut Target and OTM Tactical? (30418 vs 30107)
These are simply different naming conventions that we use to clarify that the bullets can be used for each application. The military requires that OTM (Open Tip Match) bullets be clearly defined as OTM in the product name for clarification. There are no differences between these two bullets.

 

[ED_RN]

When they first came out with the rebranded 185gr LR Boat Tail aka Juggernaut there a slight difference in the degree on the heel of the bullet
OTM had 7degree heel vs the 9dregee heel of the boat tail on rebranded 185gr LR Boat Tail. Now of course they are they are the EXACT SAME bullet.

 

[40xs]

In answer to Bruddah's question, I'm sure tighter twist is beneficial for the 208's. But what impresses me is no one at the local 1000yd. match is interested in using the 208's. they all seem to be using the Berger hybrids and juggers, etc. and these guys have been competing for a long time. I'm of the opinion that the 208's require the velocity of .300mag proportion along with tighter twist in order to stabilize them to 1000yds.. Mind you, any bullet will get there, but getting there in quality manner is the key.

 

[Xtremegunnr]

I use 47 grains of reloader 17 at 2.962 (fits in modified mag and modified feed lip) with federal primer. Get 2500 fps and shoots great

In my long action 308 i load at 3.1" with 48 at 2625. I shoot it at 1400 and get 1.5 moa with wind.

I love em

 

[mark5pt56]

Update, settled on the 185's with 46.5 grains of 2000MR. Gives me 2690 average from the 24" AI. Oh-2.840, so they go in the mag. While I would single feed these at the 1k, wanted them to go into the mag if I wanted them to. No pressure signs, was wondering about going longer and more powder or if it's even worth fiddling with.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Update, settled on the 185's with 46.5 grains of 2000MR. Gives me 2690 average from the 24" AI. Oh-2.840, so they go in the mag. While I would single feed these at the 1k, wanted them to go into the mag if I wanted them to. No pressure signs, was wondering about going longer and more powder or if it's even worth fiddling with.

That's a good load. Been shooting the same load but at 47.0 pp2000. No pressure signs either. I had wanted to run the 208's and had good results with R17 but the 185 juggernaut is running 2832 fps and I can mag feed. It's only for 600 and 1,000 yard shooting, and its WAYYYY to heavy a rifle to tote around but it's fun to keep your skills sharp on the .308 if ( like me) you've been getting spoiled on the 6mm and 6.5's

 

[mark5pt56]

I shot a 1k match yesterday with the 24"AI and the 185 Berger OTM (46.5, seated at 2.840) Since I wanted mag feed, I was double checking the length and it appears I could go out a tad more, at least 2.860/70. Has anyone worked on various lengths, powder charge increase with this combo?
Of course, the guy next to me uses the 155's and mentioned his run 2900 and has good luck with them. Naturally, I start thinking of those now.
I did ok by the way, 187/5x. Wind was 5-8 @ 8/9 o'clock. Bad shots were high/left, seemed to be my position as I could see my crosshairs walk up in that direction, maybe a minute's worth.

Mark