- Thread starter urmaker45
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Are you referring to the Gen II DPMS SASS or the original? If you are set on DPMS go with the Gen II.
DPMS Gen II info here.
DPMS Gen II info here.
I happen to own Both Armalite and DPMS. Both are Shooters out of the box. Armalite is noticeably better build quality from the factory, but the DPMS GEN II seems to stepped up A Lot. Accuracy wise its a wash, but for the money DPMS is a Better Deal. Buy base on what price you're welling to pay but make sure you get the new gen armalite that'll take the Pmags.
The DPMS GEN II is still very new and there will PLENTY of GEN I rifle up for sell shortly at a steal of a price. Trust me.
The DPMS GEN II is still very new and there will PLENTY of GEN I rifle up for sell shortly at a steal of a price. Trust me.
I own both the Armalite and DPMS rifles. I have never had any problems with the Armalite but I have had little problems with the DPMS. Quality and accuracy goes to Armalite.
I haven't had the armalite sass but have had a few of their uppers. I did have the dpms sass, though. I thought the Armalites has a much better fit and finish. I also prefer them aesthetically. Accuracy-wise, i never had any complaints about the dpms sass.
I will say that I have the Armalite and the forged receivers appealed to me over the machined receivers of the DPMS. I think the only thing the first generation DPMS has going for it is the magazine availability. The Armalite's mags are steel and are quite sturdy though.
Never had a dpms pattern, but there seems to be such a variety of a parts available that the dpms lends itself to more builder created issues based on the number of parts that can be "tried" in that profile. With Armalite…the tried and true "AR" its already been tested and done. Now they have an "A" mod for those of you who just have to have PMAGs but to my knowledge you can't yet buy the parts kit to build your own…just the whole rifle(I may stand corrected-anyone?)
Enter Matrix Aerospace Firearms - Matrix Aerospace ... the current mfg of the Ruger SR762. "Matrix" stamped receivers are armalite pattern, that will accept dpms style mags…Pmags or std steel. Forged receivers that have more of a billet look, and aFit and finish on par with Armalite. Not having finished this build yet I can't comment on operation but have nothing but great things to say about Matrix customer service.
If you're looking to buy a complete rifle, I would go with Armalite. Tried and true…lifetime warranty…"AR" stands for ARMALITE…the original Stoner.
Enter Matrix Aerospace Firearms - Matrix Aerospace ... the current mfg of the Ruger SR762. "Matrix" stamped receivers are armalite pattern, that will accept dpms style mags…Pmags or std steel. Forged receivers that have more of a billet look, and aFit and finish on par with Armalite. Not having finished this build yet I can't comment on operation but have nothing but great things to say about Matrix customer service.
If you're looking to buy a complete rifle, I would go with Armalite. Tried and true…lifetime warranty…"AR" stands for ARMALITE…the original Stoner.
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Armalite is a bit better quality wise but the DPMS SASS is a good shooter. Mine was extremely accurate.
FWIW if I were to buy another 308 AR I would get a 16" POF, 16" LMT, the two SASS rifles you are asking about are both ungodly heavy and I'd rather have a carbine sort of rifle that can be carried around or shot offhand.
Neither,If you want sub moa you have to pay for it. Yea you could get lucky, but then you might get a turd.
If your not willing to buy a GAP10, SR-25 or LMT MWS SS...... then I would do this (assuming you want to stick with .308, AR pattern, and a 20" barrel):
CMM MK3 308 16 SS OPT CBR $1,657.00 SHIPS FREE + Barrel, 20", .308 AR, M110, 1x10, Stainless, Threaded, Match Quality, FA by Criterion
If your not willing to buy a GAP10, SR-25 or LMT MWS SS...... then I would do this (assuming you want to stick with .308, AR pattern, and a 20" barrel):
CMM MK3 308 16 SS OPT CBR $1,657.00 SHIPS FREE + Barrel, 20", .308 AR, M110, 1x10, Stainless, Threaded, Match Quality, FA by Criterion
That's one of the most inaccurate statements I have read in a long time. Many people who have both brands have reported submoa accuracy them. I am not a DPMS fan by any means but I have seen enough of the .308LR that shoot sub moa. I have and have friends who have Armalites to know even the chromed lined models will shoot under 1 MOA with a floated barrel and match ammo.
I was able to pick up the new G2 sass DPMS today and I was impressed. I would really like to see someone purchase one of these and post a report with pictures!!
My Armalite with the national match upper does very well for accuracy. I would say 1 moa to 600 and 2 moa at 1K with 155's. have not tried 175's. I like the 155's.
Rob
Rob
I own a Armalite SASS and its by far a turd. It's guaranteed from the factory to be 1 moa or less using quality ammo, as per Armalite. I have about 300 rnds down the tube on mine and have not had a chance to really test the accuracy yet but it with 168 FGMM its well within 1 moa.
I think DPMS has really up'd the game with the G2 series. Come on someone, buy one and get some reviews going! 
DPMS doesn't even have that going for it anymore. In 2012 Armalite came out with the AR10A which is the same as their original AR10 except that it accepts 3rd party magazines instead of Armalite's proprietary magazines.
DPMS SASS gen 1 that I have and have tested is a shooter.It was about .75 out of the box using 168 FGGM. Wouldn't trade it for anything.Can't speak on the Armalite but the DPMS is a great value for the coin.
Really? Take 25 DPMS and 25 Armalites and then take 25 GAP10's and 25 JP's and tell me which averages over 1 or under 1 MOA.
Just beacuse a few people get shooters, does not mean they are all great. You kids need to take a statistics class.
If you want accuracy, YOU PAY FOR IT..... otherwise you are rolling the dice..... You also might get a shit gun.
It doesn't instill confidence in a company when they show their rifles with bipods on backwards...
Firearms - Matrix Aerospace
Firearms - Matrix Aerospace
yes and no. I understand what you're saying especially being an owner of LMT rifles. You know, the second you pick up a LMT rifle that it is not your standard AR..... but......
as for the 5.56 round (not so much for 7.62), rock river arms continues to impress for very little money. I honestly tell my friends that are looking to purchase a 5.56 AR for the first time (and even those that have been around the block a few times) not to waste the extra money and just get a rock river. Over and over, RRA continues to produce sub-moa consistent rifles and friends that take my advice end up thanking me in the long run.
with the little feedback on the new dpms G2 rifles just coming out with improved receivers, monolithic BCG, dual ejectors, improved brass deflector with longer ejection port blah blah blah things could really start to swing in DPMS's direction.. it is too early to say being they just came out with the new g2 series of rifles if they will be good, bad, or ugly... regardless, someone at DPMS took the old blueprints and put them in the trash and they have really up'd their game. Only time will tell if the new g2 series will be worth anything. Regardless, the new dpms .308 line improvements is HUGE for a price effective alternative.
I understand I'm not as hard-core as you cobra. I'm just a weekend warrior, but then again I would say more than 75% of the SH members are just that. Weekend warriors looking for a cost effective rifle with amazing results. That is why I'm such a huge fan of RRA rifles. Why spend twice the amount of $$ on a 5.56 AR, when you can get a RRA that will be just as accurate if not more accurate. I have yet to have anyone prove me wrong on this in RL or on the hide. Yes, there is the question of reliability........ but honestly, I've never had a single one of my 8 RRA rifles or my friend's RRA rifles let me down to think this is even an issue as a weekend warrior.
as for the 5.56 round (not so much for 7.62), rock river arms continues to impress for very little money. I honestly tell my friends that are looking to purchase a 5.56 AR for the first time (and even those that have been around the block a few times) not to waste the extra money and just get a rock river. Over and over, RRA continues to produce sub-moa consistent rifles and friends that take my advice end up thanking me in the long run.
with the little feedback on the new dpms G2 rifles just coming out with improved receivers, monolithic BCG, dual ejectors, improved brass deflector with longer ejection port blah blah blah things could really start to swing in DPMS's direction.. it is too early to say being they just came out with the new g2 series of rifles if they will be good, bad, or ugly... regardless, someone at DPMS took the old blueprints and put them in the trash and they have really up'd their game. Only time will tell if the new g2 series will be worth anything. Regardless, the new dpms .308 line improvements is HUGE for a price effective alternative.
I understand I'm not as hard-core as you cobra. I'm just a weekend warrior, but then again I would say more than 75% of the SH members are just that. Weekend warriors looking for a cost effective rifle with amazing results. That is why I'm such a huge fan of RRA rifles. Why spend twice the amount of $$ on a 5.56 AR, when you can get a RRA that will be just as accurate if not more accurate. I have yet to have anyone prove me wrong on this in RL or on the hide. Yes, there is the question of reliability........ but honestly, I've never had a single one of my 8 RRA rifles or my friend's RRA rifles let me down to think this is even an issue as a weekend warrior.
Armalite... Because its just that sexy. Not to mention there are a lot of reinforced parts inside that dwarfed my other 308 cal ARs. Not sure if you shoot suppressed or not, but the adjustable gas on the Armalite was the deal breaker for me. It came factory with a pretty bad ass adjustable match trigger (Wish I had read the manual and known it was factory adjustable before ordering the geissele, on the light setting its butter!), gasbuster charging handle, and more.
Attachments
There is a lot of innovation that went into the Armalite SASS rifle, and for a precision gun, I would actually prefer the steel mags patterned off the M14 mag body due to COL allowance for reloaders (me). You can load way out past 2.800" with the steel mags.
The Armalite SASS also uses a great gas block assembly, with a sealed gas tube and adjustable regulator for suppressed use that doesn't require tools.
That said, I'm interested to see how the Freedom Group GII SASS works out, because it is not really a DPMS gun anymore. For being able to shoot positions, the GII is going to be hard to beat.
The Armalite SASS also uses a great gas block assembly, with a sealed gas tube and adjustable regulator for suppressed use that doesn't require tools.
That said, I'm interested to see how the Freedom Group GII SASS works out, because it is not really a DPMS gun anymore. For being able to shoot positions, the GII is going to be hard to beat.
Yes, really....There have been enough people on the many forums who have posted many multiple groups showing these rifles will shoot submoa with decent ammo and a decent shooter behind them. You don't, I repeat don't have to go custum to get a submoa rifle. I don't know how many lemons Armalite, Larue or DPMS produce and neither do you but they make them right if you have any problems. I think when you go with GAP or JP what you are getting is THE MOST accurate rifle you can buy. If waiting or spending the extra money is worth a fraction of subMOA performance is worth it to you then so be it. But to imply that is the only way to ensure you are going to get submoa performance is pure bullshit. Home builder can do this by screw a match barrel and free floating it, it' isn't voo doo....
Agreed. I have had eight ARs with DPMS barrels ranging from 5.56 to 300 RSAUM. Some have been factory guns, and some have been home builds. All of them have consistantly shot 1 MOA or under with the right ammo. One of those is a home build I put together using a DPMS SASS barrel and exclusively DPMS parts. I still have seven of those eight, and they just keep on humming.
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Many? All?
How many quality brand guns do people have that don't shoot as good or better (and lets ignore rookies and novices who don't even know how to run their equipment). YOU pay for quality which is consitancy.
I hear ya. I just lean towards higher quality and proven guns beacuse they work. I have owned them all, including the most accurate RRA made (A2 highpower). It was full of problems including the shit rra 2 stage that is prone to failure and gritty as sand paper. Overly tight chamber that would have trouble extracting. RRA was known as having good upper/lower fir (back when people were still using the accuwedge or other useless shit)...pretending that upper/lower fit has any correllation with quality. That was one of the ONLY RRA's worth owning, but your still better off with a WOA or Colt. Their m4 type guns have been a joke for 10+ years. I don't want you to think I am just bashing or talking out of my ass..... If you knew the history and were around these boards (LF, AR15, M4C,ect) going back to the early 2000's, and were active, you would have seen the same stuff. Look up the DEA fiasco and how they tried to market that to ignorant and novice buyers who thought they were buying mil spec and quality guns.
I don't talk about shit unless I have owned it, Have shot it extensitvely or one of the few people I would trust my life to have extensive experince with multiple samples . All the other shit on the internet is just icing to reinforce the same point.
Any company can get 1 or 2 or even 50% of their rifles correct. Only a few can do it 99%+ while using the best designs, materials, and QC.
AND? There have been plenty enough people who have gotten shit examples as well. Enough to have a whole brand considered persona non grata for serious use. If I can't trust a gun enough to use for duty, Its not worth owning.... PERIOD
You are confusing two things. One is bargain brands that sometimes shoot well and premium barrels. Comparing a homebuilder who uses a premo tube (when anyone who is not an utter idiot knows that the VAST MAJORITY of an AR's accuracy is derived from its barrel, all things being equal) to any of those that use the cheapest shit they can source and make to keep their profit margins high................is dishonest.
You are also lumping in Armalite and Larue, two pretty decent quality guns with DPMS or RRA..... This is BMW to Chevy.
The extra money is for CONFIDENCE. Confidence that your rifle will shoot beacuse it has a MUCH higher probability of it, while being a known quanitity. HIGHER quality parts, Better design, MORE QC with competent builders/smiths.
It is the ONLY way to ensure you get a submoa gun. Maybe you can show us where the bargain brands guarentee sub MOA with even something as useless as a 3 shot group. Hell, Larue won't even do that. Saw a thread here about how they would refuse to do warrantee on a gun they couldnt even get to shoot MOA , with 3 shots of every type of Factory match ammo availible.
How many guys you see competing PRS with savages or stock 700's? EVEN if they were lucky to get a shooter, its not worth playing the lottery to hope you get a good gun.... and its still a stock, inferior gun without the features and quality of proven platforms.
You have alot to learn friend.
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And Armalite uses/used the same barrel as Larue, that's why I lumped them together. There is no big difference between them, (high quality receivers, barrels and bolt designs in both) like I said it isn't voodoo. A SS match barrel is gonna shoot submoa provided three things. 1. it's free floated 2. match ammo used 3. shooter is capable. I don't think we would be disagreeing if you hadn't posted in order to get a "submoa" gun you need to go to GAP or JP.
ETA I think you have a lot to learn or stop drinking the kool aid.
ETA I think you have a lot to learn or stop drinking the kool aid.
Whats a "match" barrel?
Bartlien vs Armalite? Small shop that guarentees accuracy vs huge shop full of uneducated union workers trying to make guns as fast as possible, while doing little/no QC on parts that are sourced from all over the country.... and little/no QC after assembly.
It's a business decision. The Mass producers make more money putting out shit, and servicing the problems, then actualy putting out quality from the getgo. The smaller shops and custom shops HAVE to get it right the first time, or they cease to exsist..... and sure as hell don't florish like GAP/JP/KAC do.
Bartlien vs Armalite? Small shop that guarentees accuracy vs huge shop full of uneducated union workers trying to make guns as fast as possible, while doing little/no QC on parts that are sourced from all over the country.... and little/no QC after assembly.
It's a business decision. The Mass producers make more money putting out shit, and servicing the problems, then actualy putting out quality from the getgo. The smaller shops and custom shops HAVE to get it right the first time, or they cease to exsist..... and sure as hell don't florish like GAP/JP/KAC do.
Okay, now I have some time to devote to this thread if the ol' lady leaves me alone ( so far not). I have been qualifying people the last two days and have two more days to go and I was typing between breaks. Let me make this perfectly clear, I was/have been responding to your response to op's orignal question. Your response was : "Neither,If you want sub moa you have to pay for it. Yea you could get lucky, but then you might get a turd". Then you start talking about bolt guns and all of that.
If you don't know what a SS match barrel then I can't help you and you not as smart as you are trying to make yourself out to be. I am not going to dispute the quality of Bartlein or whatever else you what to say, their reputations speak for themselves. But if one REALLY and TRUELY thinks that is the ONLY way to achieve submoa accuracy then they are fool. I say again in case if you didn't catch it before. Going GAP or Jp or whatever else along those lines will ensure you will get the upmost accuracy. There is a member here that I used to chat with quite often works for Aberdeen and he has personally tested many small arms including every make of .308ARs. He has stated here and on Arfcom many times that there is no discernable difference in accuracy between the .308ARs. That means run of the mill to the Gucci brands, this has been proven before on the boards too. I hope he see this and chimes in because I am sure you won't believe me, hell you might not believe him either.
Armalite guarentees their match rifles to 1 MOA or better simply because they don't know if the shooter is capable of more, this has been said by many of their employees on Arfcom over the years.
If you don't know what a SS match barrel then I can't help you and you not as smart as you are trying to make yourself out to be. I am not going to dispute the quality of Bartlein or whatever else you what to say, their reputations speak for themselves. But if one REALLY and TRUELY thinks that is the ONLY way to achieve submoa accuracy then they are fool. I say again in case if you didn't catch it before. Going GAP or Jp or whatever else along those lines will ensure you will get the upmost accuracy. There is a member here that I used to chat with quite often works for Aberdeen and he has personally tested many small arms including every make of .308ARs. He has stated here and on Arfcom many times that there is no discernable difference in accuracy between the .308ARs. That means run of the mill to the Gucci brands, this has been proven before on the boards too. I hope he see this and chimes in because I am sure you won't believe me, hell you might not believe him either.
Armalite guarentees their match rifles to 1 MOA or better simply because they don't know if the shooter is capable of more, this has been said by many of their employees on Arfcom over the years.
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A businees decison to put out "shit" as you call it is a failed business plan and they would'n t last long if they put out "shit" as you say. I do recall seeing the Army guys using Armalites to win the Benning Sniper comp a few years ago....wow I wonder how they did it with such a shit rifle. There is no way in hell they could have done it with a non Gucci brand rifle. Musta been luck as you pit it.
Oh, and the guys I shoot with that have them, between the four of use we have rifle buiukt from the last 11 years. I wonder how many rifles were built between tat time spand? Hell we should go buy lottery tickets because by your logic we are the luckiest bastards alive or....maybe...just maybe you might be wrong in you comments ( 25 out of 25)?
Oh, and the guys I shoot with that have them, between the four of use we have rifle buiukt from the last 11 years. I wonder how many rifles were built between tat time spand? Hell we should go buy lottery tickets because by your logic we are the luckiest bastards alive or....maybe...just maybe you might be wrong in you comments ( 25 out of 25)?
Once again, explain to me what a "match" barrel is. What makes one qualify as such?
I used to work at Aberdeen/edgewood..... Still have a bunch of friends that work on the ATC side , and I know two of the Program Managers at ATC (one I worked with and the other is a close family friend), One a SES and the other a GS-15. Your friend(or random member talking out of their ass) sounds like an idiot.
Your last line makes zero sense. If you are trying to say, what I think you are trying to say.... now you know Armalite's intent? Please show me where they publish that..... Show me where they put their $$ behind that statement.
I used to work at Aberdeen/edgewood..... Still have a bunch of friends that work on the ATC side , and I know two of the Program Managers at ATC (one I worked with and the other is a close family friend), One a SES and the other a GS-15. Your friend(or random member talking out of their ass) sounds like an idiot.
Your last line makes zero sense. If you are trying to say, what I think you are trying to say.... now you know Armalite's intent? Please show me where they publish that..... Show me where they put their $$ behind that statement.
I know Armalite's intent because they say what their intent is on their web(AR-10 BLACK TARGET RIFLE IN 7.62) page AND they have said many times over the last 10 years, at least at ARFCOM. Anything else?
Clearly you don't know how business operate. There are many business models, with this being one. There are business analysts, accountants, general council, financial analysts, marketing, ect... That have determined this. Its a cost benefit analysis.... with profit maximization the only thing that matters. The fact that Freedom Group is a publicly traded and owned company, just reinforces this. Putting out as many products for something that is in great demand... and fixing the ones that get returned (there is a cost or oppertunity cost to everything) is more profitable than spending the time, money, design and labor to source/spec better parts, more careful assemble, and better QC.
How much do you think it costs to buy highly QC and tight tollerenaced parts? There are only a handfull of places in the country that makes stuff like FCG parts, pins, springs, BCG's, uppers, ect. So if Colt or DD source the same parts from a factory that also sells parts to DPMS (known shit LPK's) ..... why are they different. If you can't answer that question, you have clue what your even trying to comment on.
Let me break it down for you sunshine. 90%+ of people who buy an AR or any gun for that matter, shoot it a few times, maybe a couple times a year for a mag or couple..... and it goes right back under a bed or in a closet. They don't know their rifles are shit, beacuse they haven't tested them. Those that ACTUALLY do run them hard, and based on the sample data of reports and history, we can draw a conclusion on those said items. 1 or 2 or even 100 does not mean shit when a company is pumping out 100K+ rifles a year. People who actually KNOW their guns, run them hard, and train with them, KNOW what works and what doesn't work. You think beacuse johnny in Iowa puts 100 rounds a year shooting at dirt piles with his DPMS or Bushmaster (which is the same gun now) and it works.... that it means the gun is quality. Does Johnny even know enough about the system to know if something is broken or malfunctioning? There vast majority of soldiers and marines don't know shit about the m16 family and diagnosing problems, yet we consider them highly trained (or atleast to a baseline).
So if you want to play ignorant or admit you don't shoot enough to ever know or realize the difference, or its a range toy...... then good for you. Buy what you want and enjoy. But don't come around here spewing garbage about how an RRA or other inferior brand is just as good or better than a quality, proven system. Most people who understand will read what you wrote and say to themsevles "this dude has no idea what hes talking about". Certain companies take great pride in making quality products that people can trust their lives to.... Don't water that down by lumping shit in with them.
You know how many PM's and emails I get from random people thanking me and telling me how XXX poster is ignorant ,ect?
Its called sales speech. Every gun is the best shit on the planet according to them. You honestly believe that a AR-10T is a higher quality and more accurate large frame AR than KAC/GAP/LMT/JP?
Armalite is not even the same fucking company that it was 30 years ago. You don't know what you don't know.
You don't have to answer that, its rhetorical.
EDIT: Still waiting to see where Armalite publishes they stand behind their guns with a MOA promise. All it says is 1 MOA........ Nowhere does it say "We gaurentee your rifle to shoot 1MOA" or similar.
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I didn't say Armalite is higher or lower than anything. I am only saying you do not need to go Gucci to get submoa as you said in your first post. Armalite's gaurentee is in the link, period. They have said many times in the AR-10 section they only gaurentee their match rifles to shoot 1 MOA because they can not control the shoot to shoot better. If you don't believe ask over there.
I am trying to keep this civil but I have to say, you are like a woman or a politician. You get called on something you say and then you try to change the subject. I never claimed Armalite is the same company it was 30 years ago. Where did you get that? I know the AR-10 was before the AR-15. I know the first AR-10 was in .30-06 and it used BAR mags, did you know that? It doesn't have any thing to do with this:
"Neither,If you want sub moa you have to pay for it. Yea you could get lucky, but then you might get a turd".
That is what I am disputing, what I have said from the begining....Your words, not mine....
STOP TWISTING WORDS. How many times can I say it?
Your quotation or repeating is not correct.
"I am only saying you do not need to go Gucci to get submoa as you said in your first post"
That is NOT what I said. I said if you want to gaurentee you get a good shooter, you need to buy quality. Did you even read everything I fucking typed?
I don't know what your smoking.... but there is NO GUARANTEE anywhere on their page. In fact, if you look at all the rifles they sell, there is a MOA range there. That is not a guarentee and if you get something that falls outside of that range, there isin't shit you can do about it.......they are are under no obligation to replace your gun or barrel.......or do shit like truing the reciever/bolt face that most of the quality outfits do (if they aren't already right from machining).
We can circle jerk this donkey all day...... bottom line...... if you want to have the highest probability of a gun that works, is reliable and shoots bugholes..........you have to pay for it. You get what you pay for in this game, up to a certain point.
It's there dude , I can't hep it if you can't read or my computer is better than yours or there is a vast Armalite conspiracy on yours.Not twisting words, are these not yours?:
Neither,If you want sub moa you have to pay for it. Yea you could get lucky, but then you might get a turd. If your not willing to buy a GAP10, SR-25 or LMT MWS SS...... then I would do this (assuming you want to stick with .308, AR pattern, and a 20" barrel):"
That's all I all I was responding to....in the begining...
Neither,If you want sub moa you have to pay for it. Yea you could get lucky, but then you might get a turd. If your not willing to buy a GAP10, SR-25 or LMT MWS SS...... then I would do this (assuming you want to stick with .308, AR pattern, and a 20" barrel):"
That's all I all I was responding to....in the begining...
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I'm just curious where the thousands of bad ass mofo's like yourself are losing their lives and or maybe just some local comps because they aren't running GAPs or JPs?
AND...now we are getting into reliable...here is where we are on the same page. But you change the statement fron submoa. I have an Armalite. I have only shot a KAC once, never anything else other than my Armalite (.308ARs). I would tend to "THINK" as I can't say for certain but I would tend to think KAC or LMT has everyone on this because they are issued to militaries. I know Armalite has been in small numbers and even went through testing against KAC, some say they won but lost out because of the bid per unit because security upgrades to plant was incorperated into the cost per rifle which out priced KAC sinced they already had the upgrades. Some say KAC won period. My T has run like a raped ape surppressed for about 700 rounds without cleaing (don't have my notes in front of me). The BCG and upper receiver looked like black jelly. It never missed a beat... I took it to a sniper school for two weeks where it was drug through the mud and every shit you can imagine except sand with out cleaning, it ran with out a single hiccup. But so did the countless 700s and about 6 Savages too. This school is at the same place one of the "high profile " military special guys go to. I am not saying I went through the same school as they did but on the same ground.There go there because if you can dope the wind there you can anywhere in the world.That is thier saying, not mine. We shot .50's just past a mile anmand our .308's with 168s out to 1k, in the cold this defies internet logic, we are at 850 ASL). Some of our instructors did and they took 1 & 2 with video to prove it. There are at two members here that know what I am talking about.
With that said my 10 did not stop functioning but when I added a red dot on the rail about 2-3 o'clock and when I turn it over it does not function. This was done several years later. I don't think a KAC or LMT would choke being turned on it's side like my Armalite does when it is clean but that was not what we were talking about was it?
My point has been and will be to counter you need to go GAP or JP to get submoa because if you don't you are more than likely to get a lemmon...
To get the most reliable, now I am sure we would agree...
With that said my 10 did not stop functioning but when I added a red dot on the rail about 2-3 o'clock and when I turn it over it does not function. This was done several years later. I don't think a KAC or LMT would choke being turned on it's side like my Armalite does when it is clean but that was not what we were talking about was it?
My point has been and will be to counter you need to go GAP or JP to get submoa because if you don't you are more than likely to get a lemmon...
To get the most reliable, now I am sure we would agree...
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So you have no experince with other platforms, yet feel the need to argue......... thanks.... I'm done here.
No need to as I wasn't make the claim that anything other Gucci won't shoot, you did that. The Internet is a wonderful thing, I don't have to go to med school to learn about, let's say prostate health. I don't have to stay in a " insert name here" a condo/ hotel in Miami to find out if it is good or not. I can look at forums or blogs to see peoples experience with these things. If I choose ignor it, then so be it...
Let me say this. I have only owned 5 different AR10's. Out of the 3 production guns, I guess I got lucky once. The remaining 2 I paid George Gardner to build for me, starting with Obermeyer and Bartlein barrels.
* My first was an Eagle Arms EA-10T 24". Eagle Arms is the company most of you think of as Armalite, but they are nothing of the sort, just acquired the name for some reason. Anyway, that rifle literally shot 1/3 MOA out of the box. I sold it, and the guy who bought it from me was so tickled pink, he could barely contain himself when he came back to show me his 1" ragged hole at 300yds....10rds. In his deep Southern accent, he excalimed, "Son, that is a chute-her!"
* My second was a DPMS LR-308 24" beast. Out of the box, it had extraction problems, which were fixed when DPMS sent me a new extractor. Comparing the two, you could clearly see the fault with the original. The chamber was so tight that small based dies couldn't full-length size my Lapua brass enough to feed reliably through the gun, and I learned this the hard way in the middle of a sniper competition overseas on one of the stress fire stages.
* GAP My third was when I followed the advice of a well-known long range shooter, who said, "Dude. Send your parts to George Gardner and have him build you a gas gun." So I sent him a DPMS receiver set, BCG, and furniture, and I got back a .5 MOA laser chambered in .308 specifically for the 155gr Lapua Scenar. Beautiful rifle, shoots extremely well, have a hard time finding targets small enough to shoot with it. I used that rifle in the FinnSniper International Sniper Competition to place 2nd with my Teammate (He did the brunt of the work.)
* My fourth was a DPMS LR-260, that didn't shoot as well as I would have liked. I think it was around 1 MOA, but I really wanted a hummer like I had read about in the gun rags, where they probably hand-selected the best shooting rifle they had, and sent it to one of the usual suspect authors.
* GAP My fifth is my custom .260 Remington built by GA Precision again. The gun shoots crazy accurate, from .4 MOA to .6 MOA. The first time I shot it at 1000yds, I shot a 9.25" group with an intentional allowed wind change, just to see how much the wind speed increase would open my group. The first 2 rounds were within 4" of each other, and the third opened it to 9.25". It's an extremely fun rifle to shoot, especially on a shot timer at distance on explosive targets.
I guess I got lucky with the EA-10T, which was the most bang for the buck by far. If I were to do it again, I would have never purchased the off-the-shelf DPMS rifles, and would just go straight to GA Precision.
* My first was an Eagle Arms EA-10T 24". Eagle Arms is the company most of you think of as Armalite, but they are nothing of the sort, just acquired the name for some reason. Anyway, that rifle literally shot 1/3 MOA out of the box. I sold it, and the guy who bought it from me was so tickled pink, he could barely contain himself when he came back to show me his 1" ragged hole at 300yds....10rds. In his deep Southern accent, he excalimed, "Son, that is a chute-her!"
* My second was a DPMS LR-308 24" beast. Out of the box, it had extraction problems, which were fixed when DPMS sent me a new extractor. Comparing the two, you could clearly see the fault with the original. The chamber was so tight that small based dies couldn't full-length size my Lapua brass enough to feed reliably through the gun, and I learned this the hard way in the middle of a sniper competition overseas on one of the stress fire stages.
* GAP My third was when I followed the advice of a well-known long range shooter, who said, "Dude. Send your parts to George Gardner and have him build you a gas gun." So I sent him a DPMS receiver set, BCG, and furniture, and I got back a .5 MOA laser chambered in .308 specifically for the 155gr Lapua Scenar. Beautiful rifle, shoots extremely well, have a hard time finding targets small enough to shoot with it. I used that rifle in the FinnSniper International Sniper Competition to place 2nd with my Teammate (He did the brunt of the work.)
* My fourth was a DPMS LR-260, that didn't shoot as well as I would have liked. I think it was around 1 MOA, but I really wanted a hummer like I had read about in the gun rags, where they probably hand-selected the best shooting rifle they had, and sent it to one of the usual suspect authors.
* GAP My fifth is my custom .260 Remington built by GA Precision again. The gun shoots crazy accurate, from .4 MOA to .6 MOA. The first time I shot it at 1000yds, I shot a 9.25" group with an intentional allowed wind change, just to see how much the wind speed increase would open my group. The first 2 rounds were within 4" of each other, and the third opened it to 9.25". It's an extremely fun rifle to shoot, especially on a shot timer at distance on explosive targets.
I guess I got lucky with the EA-10T, which was the most bang for the buck by far. If I were to do it again, I would have never purchased the off-the-shelf DPMS rifles, and would just go straight to GA Precision.
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It's funny that I called Armalite and Barrett when I was deciding which single shot 50 I wanted. Barrett guaranteed me a 2MOA gun at 1000yrds and Armalite guaranteed me 7-8in groups at a 1000. Armalite guy said if a gun of his didn't shoot that out of the box, he would make it right. That's a fucking guarantee in my book from a POS mass producing, shit-putting-out, don't give a fuck about customers huge corporation that only cares about their profits. Or maybe I just got lucky....
I still wish I had that Eagle Arms EA-10T for sure. Only reason I sold it was because I had just gotten out of the Army, and pay from my new employer hadn't kicked in yet, had to pay the mortgage and bills. It had an aluminum free-float tube on it as well, not the larger carbon fiber tubes they were using on the Armalite models at the time.
It was one of those rifles where everything just feels right, and no matter what you do, POI is POA. Loved it.
It was one of those rifles where everything just feels right, and no matter what you do, POI is POA. Loved it.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...6-love-hate-relationship-my-new-gap-10-a.html
Weird... Maybe you meant 90% of guns twice the price are always better.
