Can see heartbeat bounce crosshairs a lot. Issue with the stock (PRS)?

[jdknotts1]

I have to say I was a little irritated at first. But a day or so had gone by and it passed. In my line of work, thin skin will not get you too far. As I mentioned, I enjoy banter and I really enjoy giving it. So in the end, I don't mind.

I'm in decent shape. Don't think I have high blood pressure or any issues like that. I think it is the earlier mentioned issue, binding up, tension, etc… I'm not new to shooting, even some long range, but this is the first time I've noticed it so pronounced. That's what made me so curious about it. And the magnification is only 15x, so thats not it.

Since the start of this thread, I've been looking into the NPA a bit more. I think I'm forcing the gun into position instead of getting my body into position. Something I see that takes a bit of practice, not something that easily happens in the start.

 

[Angmo]

When I shoot prone and use a super-tight sling on my bicep wrapped around my arm and over my hand to the front sling, I always get a heart beat. It's because I am s securely tied to the rifle as one is supposed to be in this type position. Using glass or iron it still happens. Has nothing to do with type sighting.

You learn to B.R.A.S.S. breath, relax, aim, stop/slack and squeeze and actually shoot between heart beats without snapping the trigger. Slowing the heartbeat is important and that takes practice. Almost a zen like quality and belief in your skills and patience.

Take a minute before firing, take a long slow deep breaths. Make the deep breath take six seconds to inhale. Then take another six seconds to exhale. Do this for a minute. You should be fairly relaxed and your heart rate start to slow a bit. Your blood pressure will also drop which can help too. Relaxation is key. I did this well enough with M16s and 14s, but actually refined it with my Anschutz 22LR 50 meter rifle. Consistent Trigger pull is essential. Once I figured it out with the Anschutz, I applied it even better to the M16 and 14 rifles. It is a delicate art, calm down, and maintain identical trigger pressure and understand your heart rate.

Practice by betting ten cents per group or shot with a friend. That small amount of pressure with really impact your shooting and give you feedback about your breathing and heart rate and focus on relaxing...

Semper Fi

 

[Angmo]

50 meter... Oops.

 

[verdugo60]

Hey JD, sounds like you are good already, but as has been said let it roll off you and stick around, it's a great place to learn and also get a laugh. You score instant points for shooting GAP in general around here, and instant points with me for your Archer Avatar, that show is hilarious. The satisfaction of driving a precision rifle well, especially a semi-auto is worth all the work. Maybe I will have some three-gun questions for you sometime when I am ready to sell a nut and get a Benelli M4, because I'm sure not selling my GAP!

 

[DanGuy48]

I used to shoot competition smallbore, 4 position and pulse wobble came with the game. With multiple sweatshirts and shooting jacket and sling, all laced tight, you will still not eliminate movement due to pulse, you just need enough magnification on the scope to see it. I used a 20x Unertyl and I can still see my pulse beat to this day dancing on target through the scope. I used to dream that in fact.

You need to minimize your pulse, through position, support, padding, whatever works (and is legal if you're competing) and be aware of the pattern of the the wobble on your target. For the NRA standard 50ft 4 position target, no more than a nine ring wobble would usually get you a 10. Also, be aware that the wobble will vary in strength some, during your hold on target. Hold too long and it's better to start over and go through your breathing again.

 

[DanGuy48]

Hmmm....couldn't get edit function to work.

Anyway, I meant to mention that this was using an Anschutz free rifle with completely adjustable stock. You're going to have some movement due to pulse regardless of the stock.

 

[jdknotts1]

Hey JD, sounds like you are good already, but as has been said let it roll off you and stick around, it's a great place to learn and also get a laugh. You score instant points for shooting GAP in general around here, and instant points with me for your Archer Avatar, that show is hilarious. The satisfaction of driving a precision rifle well, especially a semi-auto is worth all the work. Maybe I will have some three-gun questions for you sometime when I am ready to sell a nut and get a Benelli M4, because I'm sure not selling my GAP!

Archer is a badass. I wear a tactical turtle-neck all the time.

And I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about 3-gun. A strong background in precision shooting should help you in many ways getting started. Also, I started with a M4 but soon switched to a M2. Hit me up with any questions about gear selection and such.

 

[Centuriator]

I'm really surprised at how this whole thing has turned out. I've been reading and posting on the Hide for over 10 years now and I thought I had a pretty good feel for the group here. It's certainly grown well beyond what it was in the beginning and there have been shifts in behavior along with that growth. It's to be expected, I get it.

The snarkiness of this thread has certainly hit me a little harder than it should because I know the guy asking the question and a few of the guys answering in what I consider less than helpful ways. I point people towards the Hide to learn, they certainly have the opportunity to learn more here than I could ever teach them. The journey towards figuring out "what reticle should I get" will lead people to learning a whole lot more than me telling them to buy brand X with these options. Answering the same question day after day will wear on anyone's nerves, I get it, that's why I don't post a whole lot.

My other issue is that the Hide has always represented sort of a brotherhood to me. Again, growth has impacted the size of that brotherhood and like all families, we have our problems. I do not care for it when people speak to each other on forums in a lesser way than they would in person. If a stupid question was asked by someone next to you on the firing line, would you be snarky, or helpful?

Several people on here are very accomplished in some form or another and have earned respect, you never know who you are talking to on the internet. One of the best shooters I know went to college in Kentucky on a small bore shooting scholarship. I take the opportunity to learn from him just as readily as I take the opportunity to learn from Jacob, Frank, or David. Why would anyone in the collective shooting community lash out at someone who is excelling in another form? It's petty, and beneath what I would call a professional to act in that manner. Learn what you can, where and when you can, never miss an opportunity to improve yourself or a brother.

I don't have any clout here. There's no real reason for anyone to honor a request I make, but if I could ask something of the Hide, collectively, it would be that you treat folks with some modicum of respect. At least as much as you'd give the 16 year old kid next to you on at the range who is shooting grandpa's hunting rifle past 100 yards for the first time and thinks it’s the coolest thing he's ever done. We were all "that guy" at some point. If you'll notice my signature line, it's been the same for several years and I try to live my professional life in a way that reflects on that statement.

Hope you all have a good weekend and that my post comes across sincerely, exactly as I intended it to.

Well said!

It's always a shame when on an otherwise great forum a few people choose to behave like total donkeyholes toward new/newer members, particularly in a section of the forum that claims to be a place to ask all the "dumb" questions you want. Ridiculous and childish behavior on their part. Apparently some people just have to behave this way to compensate for something lacking in their life. Just ignore 'em and move on.

There are plenty of great people around here who are extremely helpful, eager to encourage PR noobs like us and lend a hand.

 

[areaone]

I have been a member here for 4 years, lost my post count in the conversion a few months back. I too, have that heartbeat problem and notice the crosshairs jumping at 100yds. Other than my Service time in the late 60's as a 11 B 10, I have had no formal training,so when I saw this thread under Stupid Marksmanship questions, I thought it would be informative with the answers from the "experts", well I have learned a LOT. Someone once told me there are no "stupid" questions just stupid answers. Let those that have the knowledge and experience share that with the uninformed and we all benefit. I want to thank all that have answered questions and shared their experiences over the years, I have learned so much more from this site than I would have had it not been for many people sharing with those of us that "had a need to know". To those of you that have contributed your knowledge in a positive manner.......Thank You.

 

[Lowlight]

There is absolutely, positively no comparing shooting with a sling from positions to shooting a rifle from the prone with a bipod and rear bag.

Its not just apples and oranges, it's bananas and coconuts. The technique used with the sling is not the same as the one used with a bipod.

You guys suggesting its ok to see the movement in the reticle like you do with your slung up position are just full of shit and don't know what you're talking about. You're the problem, not the rifle, stock, or whatever other excuse you're suggesting.

 

[Erud]

There is absolutely, positively no comparing shooting with a sling from positions to shooting a rifle from the prone with a bipod and rear bag.

Its not just apples and oranges, it's bananas and coconuts. The technique used with the sling is not the same as the one used with a bipod.

You guys suggesting its ok to see the movement in the reticle like you do with your slung up position are just full of shit and don't know what you're talking about. You're the problem, not the rifle, stock, or whatever other excuse you're suggesting.

Too mean.

 

[Lowlight]

Grow thicker skin, this is a shooting site and not romper room. If you want someone to be sensitive towards your feeling I suggest Talking to Oprah and not hanging out on Sniper's Hide...

 

[Erud]

Grow thicker skin, this is a shooting site and not romper room. If you want someone to be sensitive towards your feeling I suggest Talking to Oprah and not hanging out on Sniper's Hide...

You sir, just broke my heart.


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[catswithguns]

You sir, just broke my heart.




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Some of these guys on this site are trained killers. Don't expect much in the way of kindness from them. Just have to learn to suck it up.

 

[Erud]

Some of these guys on this site are trained killers. Don't expect much in the way of kindness from them. Just have to learn to suck it up.

Hey, thanks for the tip! I'm pretty new around here so I don't really know how everything works yet. I appreciate you showing me the ropes!

 

[Angmo]

There is absolutely, positively no comparing shooting with a sling from positions to shooting a rifle from the prone with a bipod and rear bag.

Its not just apples and oranges, it's bananas and coconuts. The technique used with the sling is not the same as the one used with a bipod.

You guys suggesting its ok to see the movement in the reticle like you do with your slung up position are just full of shit and don't know what you're talking about. You're the problem, not the rifle, stock, or whatever other excuse you're suggesting.

Huh?

 

[DanGuy48]

Excuuuuuuuuse me for missing his second post. Jesus, get a grip. It's clear I was talking about position with a sling since I missed that post. Anybody with half a brain knows there's a difference between the two. That's why there are slings and bipods....different.

There is absolutely, positively no comparing shooting with a sling from positions to shooting a rifle from the prone with a bipod and rear bag.

Its not just apples and oranges, it's bananas and coconuts. The technique used with the sling is not the same as the one used with a bipod.

You guys suggesting its ok to see the movement in the reticle like you do with your slung up position are just full of shit and don't know what you're talking about. You're the problem, not the rifle, stock, or whatever other excuse you're suggesting.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I recently heard a useful expression. Someone suggested we all just step back and power down. Made good sense then, makes good sense now.

The problem could well be you, and it could also be more serious than just presenting an impediment to your ease of shooting.

Not sure, but I think someone made a comment about left ventricular hypertrophy; pretty much the exact opposite of my own situation.

I have the exact opposite, left ventricular myopathy, and among other (17 other) meds, I take Coreg/Carvedilol, which increases the elasticity of blood vessels and smooths out the cardiac pulse, or whatever it is they are calling it these days. I also have absolutely no trace of any reticle bounce. Coincidentally, just standing up fast can cause me to faint. Quad arterial bypass, pacemaker/defibrillator, the typical Myocardial Infarct-followup cocktail of meds, they all add to the tendency. The blood pressure is somewhere around 110/70 reclining, and drops like a lead weight when I stand up fast. My ejection fraction ranges between 25% and 40%. Normal is around 55%-60%. I think these stats may be telling us a bit about why you have the problem and I don't.

I suspect any resolution for you is going to take place on an examining table, and not on a rifle range. Get a good cardiopulmonary workup. Go offbase if you must, and if you worry about how any outcomes might affect your military career.

Only once such questions are answered definitively can one proceed to matters of marksmanship basics and more quirky issues like yours with an adequate degree of confidence.

FWIW, before the site switchover, my post count was somewhere in the low-to-mid 20,000's. That single statistic really gives me neither status nor perspective. It just indicates I'm a resident Elder Fart, which really just means I'm old.

Once, a long time back, I led a national computer help desk. I was periodically reminding my peers that while we may be knee deep in complaints sharing a single cause, to the people we served, it was "The Most Important Problem, Bar None".

Resolution protocol: Identify the problem, review options, with the user's help (it could be something they are doing, and not the program), select one. Implement it, return to the cause and eliminate it. BTW, we did not turn over trouble reports to someone else. If it was a problem, it was ours to resolve; we all came into that room as senior systems programmers.

It's about perspective. If we are to be truly helpful, we need to see things from the user's perspective. If they came for help and got rudely rebuffed, they'd stop coming to us for help, and then we'd all be out of our jobs (me first of all). In another context "Softly, softly, catchee monkey...". Basically, we gotta ease up on the attitude and do what the patient came for, no matter how badly we want to wring the dumb sucker's neck; or..., diplomacy has its uses.

Basically, if you can't put it across nice, walk away.

Greg

PS: And BTW, Frank; could we please get the name of this forum changed back to what it was? I think the point has already been made.

 

[Bender]

Zombie thread I know.....I am new here and from the OP's first post I thought he was trolling......The answers were the best. I am here to learn. I know what I know, and I know what I don't know And I will never confuse the two.

Right now I know JS.....so back to reading.....

Thick skin here, fire away.

 

[fx77]

Lay off the caffeine, and maybe if needed take a beta blocking drug..then U will have more time between heartbeats for U to pull the trigger

 

[shovelstrokeed]

Once, a long time back, I led a national computer help desk. I was periodically reminding my peers that while we may be knee deep in complaints sharing a single cause, to the people we served, it was "The Most Important Problem, Bar None".

Resolution protocol: Identify the problem, review options, with the user's help (it could be something they are doing, and not the program), select one. Implement it, return to the cause and eliminate it. BTW, we did not turn over trouble reports to someone else. If it was a problem, it was ours to resolve; we all came into that room as senior systems programmers.

It's about perspective. If we are to be truly helpful, we need to see things from the user's perspective. If they came for help and got rudely rebuffed, they'd stop coming to us for help, and then we'd all be out of our jobs (me first of all). In another context "Softly, softly, catchee monkey...". Basically, we gotta ease up on the attitude and do what the patient came for, no matter how badly we want to wring the dumb sucker's neck; or..., diplomacy has its uses.

Basically, if you can't put it across nice, walk away.

Greg

PS: And BTW, Frank; could we please get the name of this forum changed back to what it was? I think the point has already been made.

Greg,
Thanks for the inspiring words. I am right now running the help desk for an international scientific instrument company.
I'm printing this section of your words and posting it on the board next to my desk.
I often find myself getting angry at the guys I'm supposed to be helping. Seems they can't do what I ask and you made me realize I'm just not asking in the right way.
I know this ain't all about shooting but from one elder fart to another, THANKS!!

 

[88blazer]

Lay off the caffeine, and maybe if needed take a beta blocking drug..then U will have more time between heartbeats for U to pull the trigger

Lay off the caffeine?? Easy for you to say. Do you have a topless espresso stand on the way to the shooting range?

 

[jdknotts1]

Looking back I get a laugh.

But in all seriousness, I picked up a TRG22 recently. And shooting it, I do not see the same "bounce" in the scope now. And this scope is a higher mag than the one I could see the heartbeat. I really don't think my technique is any better since then. So why would it not be doing the same thing? Possible that now I am more aware of it and don't put too much cheek pressure?

I am a total noob and don't claim to be great at this stuff. Just a little miffed at the effect from the previous rifle.

 

[Nik H]

Dude you need thick skin to hang out here. You haven't seen stupid questions until you do a search of my screen name.
I have asked some of the best, and folks had a field day. You live and learn. The rules say no attacking new folks,
but if you can't take a good natured ribbing, this isn't he neighborhood for you. Smart money says if you try the online training forum
a lot of your questions will work themselves out. You will find a real good primer on proper body position. Lowlight breaks it down Barney
style so even a dimwit like me can understand. For a ten spot each month you will get a lot for your money.

Can someone fill me in on this online training stuff…assuming it is subscription based.

Thanks,

 

[308Gunner]

Lay off the caffeine?? Easy for you to say. Do you have a topless espresso stand on the way to the shooting range?

I like my coffee black but I would be willing to try espresso if the stand was like that.

 

[fullretard]

Feelings nothing more than feelings.... Now where is that topless espresso stand?


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[Notso]

I have experienced the same thing shooting off a bench with a rifle with HUGE magnification.
I shoot with some benchrest guys and they all have these Nightforce scopes with 40+ magnification. If I shoot their rifles at short distances and have the magnification cranked up, I see it.

So, does the problem go away just because you dial down the magnification and you can't see it anymore?

 

[Doc68]

My penis is bigger than all of yours! Hell the most I've ever shot was 500m iron sights and M68(service rifle) until I just recently started shooting LD with a bolt rifle. Hell you probably all would look down on me since I only have a stock rifle with a few modifications, but I enjoy it and I don't care if I can hit the 10 ring at a thousand yards every time or have a sub MOA at that range either. I just think it's cool and fun!

 

[Sterling Shooter]

My penis is bigger than all of yours! Hell the most I've ever shot was 500m iron sights and M68(service rifle) until I just recently started shooting LD with a bolt rifle. Hell you probably all would look down on me since I only have a stock rifle with a few modifications, but I enjoy it and I don't care if I can hit the 10 ring at a thousand yards every time or have a sub MOA at that range either. I just think it's cool and fun!

Learning how to shoot is too much work for any who are not having fun with it. Seems to me you have a perspective on it all that will inspire success with it all.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

While it has been said that the sling and bipod are different, the difference is in technique, as any combination of artificial/bone support is always about building a solid position. The idea is to use artificial and bone support to transfer the stability of the ground into the position to realize muscular relaxation; thereafter, allowing for proper adjustment of Natural Point of Aim for the desired sight picture. The heartbeat causing the reticle to bounce indicates muscular relaxation has not been realized, likely from not understanding how to properly build the position with whatever combination of artificial/bone support. I think LL nailed it earlier, you have some tension picking up your pulse which is producing movement.