I've got a rem 700 300 win mag with primary extraction issues and the lugs are galling due to a poorly fitted barrel. I'm done sinking money into it. It sits in an old aics chassis which I actually like. I'm looking at either dropping a defiance deviant barreled action into that chassis and moving on with life or just parting it out buying an AI. I live in Utah and shoot in the dust all the time. I have an older aw that could care less if it's got a layer of dust on it or not. Will I have the same reliability from defiance? I'm not super exited about the miles of rails on the new AIs but I guess they serve a purpose. Thoughts?
- Thread starter Norseman1950
- Start date
There was a video I watched the other day describing this exactly for AI vs custom actions. As the video's stated AI's just work. I would think Frank would be a great person to hit up on this. I personally shoot AI's and have shot other actions but here in TN we do not have that kind of issue.
You will not have the same reliability with the Defiance, not in dusty conditions.
That's precisely the reason why I am ditching my Defiance on my PRS rig for a Mausingfield. The fine dust will lock up Defiance action from my personal experience, as well as those I know around me that run them.
That's precisely the reason why I am ditching my Defiance on my PRS rig for a Mausingfield. The fine dust will lock up Defiance action from my personal experience, as well as those I know around me that run them.
In dusty conditions nothing keeps trucking like an AI. Never have I experienced or heard of a failure in one in dusty conditions and I’ve ran mine in plenty of dust over the years.
If you are going to stick with a AICS chassis I would just get an AI.
If the ergos are not for you I would go for something else. As the others have said the Defiance actions will probably not be as reliable in adverse conditions.
I am shooting a Defiance this season and have not even had it for that long but you can feel that it is tight (smooth though) and will not like being filled with gunk. My AI will just keep going however.
If the ergos are not for you I would go for something else. As the others have said the Defiance actions will probably not be as reliable in adverse conditions.
I am shooting a Defiance this season and have not even had it for that long but you can feel that it is tight (smooth though) and will not like being filled with gunk. My AI will just keep going however.
Since you know for sure the AI chassis/grip will work for you, then I would definitely go AI AT if you don't need the rail space, tool-less adjustable stock and/or barricade stop of the AX. Or "badassery" of the newer rear stock. I would never suggest an AI to someone if they're not sure the ergos will work for them, but since you like the AICS, you should be set.
https://www.eurooptic.com/AT-PBFO308-BL20T-S-SP-Accuracy-International-AT-Rifle---Fold.aspx
https://www.eurooptic.com/AT-PBFO308-BL20T-S-SP-Accuracy-International-AT-Rifle---Fold.aspx
If reliability and lack of galling are some of your top objectives, I would seriously consider the Mausingfield. These actions are engineered to be unstoppable.
Be cheaper than a full AI, and you can come figure your rifle however you prefer.
Be cheaper than a full AI, and you can come figure your rifle however you prefer.
@Lowlight would be a good person to ask. Listening to the podcast yesterday, Mike and Frank said numerous rifles went down during their recent class, due to dust from high winds. I’d be curious on the breakdown of brands that had issues vs those that didn’t.
I lived in UT all my life, until recently, and am familiar with the fine sand that gets in everything out in the desert.
I lived in UT all my life, until recently, and am familiar with the fine sand that gets in everything out in the desert.
After going the custom action route my next rifle will definitely be an AI AX. Granted, my Stiller tac30 isn't exactly in the defiance league but I've learned I'm kind of hard on gear. And everything I've read says the AI's just keep trucking.
This is the same reason that I'm swapping the custom for an AXMC, plus I'm downsizing, less optics and rifles.
Kinda my thought too. I was thinking I might get rid of my aw 308 as well. Would rather have the commonality of one rifle with multiple calibers. We'll see. Looks like the general consensus here is to just get an AI.
I'm not going to sell my Mausingfield to buy an AI, but if I hadn't got the M5, I would have an AI AT right now. There are pros/cons to everything. Biggest thing for me is I like Manners stocks (t2, t4, t6, eh1, etc.. style). But there certainly is a draw to 100% standard parts, quick change barrels (though I'm gearing up for this with the M5), and the track record that comes with AI.
I think if I ever get an AI, it will be a .338 or a .50.
I think if I ever get an AI, it will be a .338 or a .50.
Yeah I definitely want the AX MC. While there are other actions that'll do the same thing as far as caliber changes are concerned, none of them offer the reliability. Also starting to seriously consider a two stage trigger for my custom and everyone seems to like their ai trigger as well.
Well... I've used a bunch. I very much like the AI two stage. I ended up using a Timney two stage on my 700 which I also really like. I much prefer it to a single stage.
There’s something to be said for just buying something and using it and not worrying about the rest.
I haven't touched a single thing on my AX since I bought it. I don't intend to really ever fuck with anything on it really, as long as it keeps shooting.
This is 100% the truth. Though I lived in Utah for years and never had any issues with my Rem 700s, I also never shot in extremely dusty conditions. I’m curious as to the makes that failed in the above comment as well.
Just get a John Hancock barreled action. Will cost you under 2k and you can drop right into your existing chassis. Buying an AI is a waste of money. The ARC actions are superior to anything on the market and there is no reason to even consider anything else.
Have you have any reliability problems with this action? I thought they were a little "looser" in order to be less sensitive to dirt and dust gunking the action up.
No, I've never had it quit running. Worst I've seen is the bolt be a little rougher to run when it was windy and dusty. But I'm moving to Colorado this year and apparently the dust out there kills everything
Comments on AI’s and TRG’s are great ways to determine who you need to ignore.
AIs are awesome (I have one) and so are TRGs (I had one). They are well built, tough as nails (the AI more so than the TRG), and as accurate as any custom.
However, if you are doing PRS comps I think the needs requirement is a bit different. Yes there are a few guys out there who run AIs quite successfully but word on the street is they are not stock guns (lighter triggers, etc.). Seeing as you are looking to replace a 300WM you probably are not doing PRS matches with them.
If you don't shoot in really dusty conditions all of the time a Defiance/ARC/Bighorn is going to do all that you need to do for less money.
You can't go run with an AI though and if you get the AXMC and don't like it you can probably recover the majority of what you spent.
However, if you are doing PRS comps I think the needs requirement is a bit different. Yes there are a few guys out there who run AIs quite successfully but word on the street is they are not stock guns (lighter triggers, etc.). Seeing as you are looking to replace a 300WM you probably are not doing PRS matches with them.
If you don't shoot in really dusty conditions all of the time a Defiance/ARC/Bighorn is going to do all that you need to do for less money.
You can't go run with an AI though and if you get the AXMC and don't like it you can probably recover the majority of what you spent.
Would Impact Precision be comparable or somewhere in between the two options presented? (never seen one, going by rep)
I have lived in Colorado for a long time and have been shooting AIs for about 15 years. They have all been dragged around through the dust and grime of most of the western states hunting and shooting various matches. They just keep on ticking. If I feel the bolt getting gritty I just wipe it off with a rag and go back to shooting. Every once in a while I break down the trigger to check for wear and give it a good cleaning, but that's about it.
They are heavy, but I prefer heavy rifles.
Money well spent.
These kind of comments are fucking great. The John Hanckock is a great gun for the money but to say an AI is a waste of money means one of two things. A, you have never been around one so you are completely ignorant on the subject or B, you don't have the money for one so they are junk. Considering the prices of used MK 2 & 3's since the AT has came out, I'm guessing just fucking stupid but it could be a combination of the two.
Unless you need a gun to jump or dive with, they are a waste a money. You can get the same performance for considerable less. They are fantastic rifles, but they are not a good value. It's diminishing returns to the extreme. When an AI cost $3500 it wasn't so bad. Now they cost almost $5k for an AT. For less money you can build a custom that will out perform it in every category but durrability and reliability. Even then it's less than 1% difference and I would argue actions like the mausingfield, are superior in performance and reliability compared to a new AT or AX. The market has changed and everyone is shooting clapped out 700s and model 10s anymore.“ AI is a waste of money”
Funniest thing on the forum.
And the FN SPR I have dragged all over the country over the last 15 years has not missed a beat or required anything other than new mags once the springs wear out. I paid $1100 for an A5 with dbm, upgraded to TBM about 3 years ago and shot it from sea level to 11k asl. Over 10k rnds of everything from 118, fgmm, SA surplus, m80 ball through it and it still shoots sub moa with the factory chrome lined barrel with no let up. I will stack that rifle up against an AI or any of the guns I carried in Iraq for that matter.
AI is nothing special. Lots of good shit out there from Sako, FN, Steyr and a bunch of manufactures you have never even heard of.
Nobody told me I could dive with my AT....
I have no interest in diving, but guns were never part of the equation either.
I have no interest in diving, but guns were never part of the equation either.
Who the hell even wants either of these anyway, especially in relation to the OP?
Your argument reminds me of similar things I heard while working at a Ferrari dealership in my youth. Every car show someone would come around and say, “my daddy has a Z06 that’s faster than that in a 1/4 or 0-60, or whatever...” The thing they miss is all the things the Z06 didn’t offer; pedigree, braking, handling, appreciation (rather than depreciation), and the list goes on.
Something is either of value to you personally, or it is not. The answer to the question for the OP isn’t AI’s aren’t worth the money or are too expensive for YOU to justify.
It’s not the AI action, it’s the whole system. Outside of other designated switch barrels, DTA, Mrad, etc. the return to zero is excellent. Also, trigger. The trigger on an AI will outlast any r700 trigger. You aren’t paying for the action, you’re paying for the entire system. I like what the mausingfield offers that’s why I’m thinking about getting a custom made with one.
I would argue the system has much less viability than it did 20 years ago. The market has caught up AI is not competing against racked junk and HS precision rifles anymore. The system is not greater than the sum of it's parts. It's parts have comparable or superior competitors on the market.
We get it....you hate AI. ARC is not matched by any other manufacturer out there, period. We get it.
nice to see Primus is keepin up with the stupid comments...still tryin to top his "Dumbest of 2018" comment from the optics thread earlier in the year though...keep workin on it...still plenty time left in the year
Oh boy this one is going to develop nicely...
Well since it's going to shit, here's some opinions of mine... Take them for what they're worth.
AI is an awesome system, action, etc... The AT, the AX, AW's, AE, whatever. All top notch. However, there are some drawbacks. If you don't like the AI chassis, or viper skins, you're kind of in the shit house. They do have issues with some calibers and primer combinations that pierce primers, and although the trigger is great, very reliable, etc... If you don't like it for whatever reason, you're in the shit house. You can't make everyone happy all at once.
With customs, really I look at the Mausingfield and Bighorn TL3 (The Nucleus looks nice, but I don't like the sandwich lug, and it hasn't even hit the shelves yet). CRF and manual ejection is my thing, and I especially like the M5's Mauser style extractor. Here you're at the mercy of whoever is building it. You can run switch-barrels but it requires tools or a Barloc/switchlug, and IMO they're never going to be on the same level of ease of use as an AI, but I guess it's worth mentioning. The other benefit here is that you can pick a stock and a trigger that fit you exactly, or have them made to fit you exactly. Chassis/minichassis options and prefit barrels are out there now that assembling totally stock, high quality parts by the end user is, I think, approaching the level of AI.
Consider the following,
Manners T4a(or any other T#a) mini chassis, or whatever quality chassis you prefer...
M5 Mausingfield
M4 Barloc
PVA Prefit shouldered barrel
Trigger Tech trigger
ARC Magazines
You're in the $3500-4000 range, right in there with an AI AT. Same accuracy potential, very robust/reliable system, and potentially more versatility in stock fit/feel, barrel length/caliber/profile, overall weight, the ability to do SAUM/WSM, etc.. AND These are all to-spec, not fucked with, no custom fitting required high quality parts.
Not going to say it's the end-all be-all for everyone, but neither is the AI....
So to the OP's question, I maintain that a Defiance isn't on the same level as an AI. AI wins hands down if you're ever going to run it hard in the dirt. On the slight side-bar of is an AI better than every custom build ever? I think that's entirely dependent on the end user because IMO you can put together some stuff these days that is pretty effin bomb proof.
Well since it's going to shit, here's some opinions of mine... Take them for what they're worth.
AI is an awesome system, action, etc... The AT, the AX, AW's, AE, whatever. All top notch. However, there are some drawbacks. If you don't like the AI chassis, or viper skins, you're kind of in the shit house. They do have issues with some calibers and primer combinations that pierce primers, and although the trigger is great, very reliable, etc... If you don't like it for whatever reason, you're in the shit house. You can't make everyone happy all at once.
With customs, really I look at the Mausingfield and Bighorn TL3 (The Nucleus looks nice, but I don't like the sandwich lug, and it hasn't even hit the shelves yet). CRF and manual ejection is my thing, and I especially like the M5's Mauser style extractor. Here you're at the mercy of whoever is building it. You can run switch-barrels but it requires tools or a Barloc/switchlug, and IMO they're never going to be on the same level of ease of use as an AI, but I guess it's worth mentioning. The other benefit here is that you can pick a stock and a trigger that fit you exactly, or have them made to fit you exactly. Chassis/minichassis options and prefit barrels are out there now that assembling totally stock, high quality parts by the end user is, I think, approaching the level of AI.
Consider the following,
Manners T4a(or any other T#a) mini chassis, or whatever quality chassis you prefer...
M5 Mausingfield
M4 Barloc
PVA Prefit shouldered barrel
Trigger Tech trigger
ARC Magazines
You're in the $3500-4000 range, right in there with an AI AT. Same accuracy potential, very robust/reliable system, and potentially more versatility in stock fit/feel, barrel length/caliber/profile, overall weight, the ability to do SAUM/WSM, etc.. AND These are all to-spec, not fucked with, no custom fitting required high quality parts.
Not going to say it's the end-all be-all for everyone, but neither is the AI....
So to the OP's question, I maintain that a Defiance isn't on the same level as an AI. AI wins hands down if you're ever going to run it hard in the dirt. On the slight side-bar of is an AI better than every custom build ever? I think that's entirely dependent on the end user because IMO you can put together some stuff these days that is pretty effin bomb proof.
No you don't get it. AI makes great rifles. Their pricing is just ludicris. If you read what I wrote instead of projecting words in my mouth you see this.
