How can you be sure that without the gun the situation ends with no one dead?
- Thread starter Maggot
- Start date
How can you be sure that without the gun the situation ends with no one dead?
So, observations based off these posts.
1. Man see "violation" (not misdemeanor or felony) and engages.
What he could have done to avoid a death at his hands.
A. Not engaged.
B. Non aggressive engagement, ie, "hey, you are in violation, you need to move." and walked away.
C. Walked away at any time to defuse engagement.
2. Womans actions.
Commits violation (as far as we know)(not misdemeanor nor felony).
Better options she could have taken.
A. Not parked in HC space.
B. Moved when engaged.
C. Apologize (non aggressive engagement) and move when engaged.
D. Ignored engagement, refused to be participant (not engaged).
E. Ignored engagement and drove around parking lot until husband came out, then leave.
Lots of polite options, common sense options, choices not taken...
What could the deceased have done?
A. Not engage. Walk past man, get in car and leave.
B. Not engage with a greater level of force. Not shove man to ground.
C. Non aggressive engagement.... speak softly and leave....
Each person had options, better than they used.
Had they done so (and all parties disengaged), no national engagement in a discussion guaranteed to sow discord among the citizens of the republic and members of snipershide...
It's up to 18 and 12...
1. Man see "violation" (not misdemeanor or felony) and engages.
What he could have done to avoid a death at his hands.
A. Not engaged.
B. Non aggressive engagement, ie, "hey, you are in violation, you need to move." and walked away.
C. Walked away at any time to defuse engagement.
2. Womans actions.
Commits violation (as far as we know)(not misdemeanor nor felony).
Better options she could have taken.
A. Not parked in HC space.
B. Moved when engaged.
C. Apologize (non aggressive engagement) and move when engaged.
D. Ignored engagement, refused to be participant (not engaged).
E. Ignored engagement and drove around parking lot until husband came out, then leave.
Lots of polite options, common sense options, choices not taken...
What could the deceased have done?
A. Not engage. Walk past man, get in car and leave.
B. Not engage with a greater level of force. Not shove man to ground.
C. Non aggressive engagement.... speak softly and leave....
Each person had options, better than they used.
Had they done so (and all parties disengaged), no national engagement in a discussion guaranteed to sow discord among the citizens of the republic and members of snipershide...
It's up to 18 and 12...
Once you lay hands on someone, their response is self defense. If you just touch an officer during an altercation, you're charged with assaulting an officer.
Let's be VERY clear here. Words = No physical response allowed regardless of what they are saying. If someone calls your mother a whore, you don't get to touch them.
Any physical contact = your right to respond with equal OR greater force.
Lesson here: DON'T touch ANYONE during ANY confrontation. Call their mother a whore.
Yeah, I definitely read it wrong . . . sounded like you said the ooga had a hc tag . . .
I think that you will find that the courts don't necessarily agree with you. People have died from being shoved down . . . It also involves difference in size and ability . . . IE an older man with not much strength being assaulted by a muscular young feral buck is at greater risk than, say, a younger athletic type in those same circumstances. Couple that with the well documented rage issues in the average buck, and I can see a very real case once down for fearing for his life.
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Being shoved to the ground only escalates and puts mall cop in a more vulnerable situation. More reason to fear. We also don't know how Mr. Shover was communicating. I was not there and neither were you. The first law was broken when it got physical. Holy guacamole Avi think!
The vid shows he pushed the guy and did indeed step back. As I CCW holder in Fla. I doubt I'd have shot the guy. However, I would not have confronted the woman over a parking space to begin with. It's the first time since Zimmerman, that I can say, there's a flaw in the way the law is interpreted.
It was a good center mass hit.
If you watch the video, after homeboy pushed the victim down, he hiked up his loose shorts. That type of action is frequently a preparatory move before continuing or beginning an assault.
If you watch the video, after homeboy pushed the victim down, he hiked up his loose shorts. That type of action is frequently a preparatory move before continuing or beginning an assault.
At my age and build, I hope I get the benefit of this law if I'm ever pushed to the ground. Better that I am aware of a threat before I end up bouncing off the pavement. Not much in support of the "Feral Buck" description.
Guess his body language would have been less intimidating, if his pants fit better.
Your comment is not correct when applied to Stand Your Ground states. Refer to the link:
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/using-a-gun-self-defense-laws-and-consequences.htm
The caveat becomes the definition of "reasonable force".
I support the Stand Your Ground policy, as I do the 2nd Amdment. Unfortunately, not everyone who can carry a gun, should. I like the comment about mindset. If you don't have the mindset to use a gun, you shouldn't carry one.
On the other hand, no one who lacks control or good judgement should be carrying. People who demonstrate no control as in road rage drivers, or confronting someone over a parking space, should be armed.
On the other hand, no one who lacks control or good judgement should be carrying. People who demonstrate no control as in road rage drivers, or confronting someone over a parking space, should be armed.
Hi,
@AviCado well what happens when that same reporter post the below quote in regards to a hunter in the hunting section asking what have you killed with a .223....A biased reporter can spin anything..especially the below quote huh?
Sincerely,
Theis
@AviCado well what happens when that same reporter post the below quote in regards to a hunter in the hunting section asking what have you killed with a .223....A biased reporter can spin anything..especially the below quote huh?
Sincerely,
Theis
One reason I carry, and maintain my CCW is I can't flee like I use too.
+1 on that.
Avi Is Al Sharptongue a racist? I have heard some stupid things he has said about white people and Jews. Is He or does he just say stupid sh!t sometimes?
I disagree with your perception of what wou have happened after the push. Your premise is that no one would have been killed if the gun came out and I do not think you can say that with 100% confidence. In addition to that no one has the right to put their hands on someone else. Once someone puts their hands on you then you can defend yourself. At that point “reasonable force” comes into play.
Thank you, I glad Im not the only one that sees that. Its embarrassing.
Take a look at the video.
The victim that was pushed to the ground is an elderly man.
You can tell by his stature, the stooped shoulders, the bend in his knees as he stands.
I am not excusing him for berating the POS that parked in the handicap zone, but old folks will jump in your shit. it's what they do.
Remember Leon Klinghoffer from the Achille Lauro? He was an old man in a wheelchair and thought that status would protect him, he was screaming and attempting to fight with the hijackers. They shot him and threw him overboard.
A much younger, more powerful man attacked him. You can tell by his demeanor (my previous post) that he was preparing to renew the attack when the gun was pulled.
The victim that was pushed to the ground is an elderly man.
You can tell by his stature, the stooped shoulders, the bend in his knees as he stands.
I am not excusing him for berating the POS that parked in the handicap zone, but old folks will jump in your shit. it's what they do.
Remember Leon Klinghoffer from the Achille Lauro? He was an old man in a wheelchair and thought that status would protect him, he was screaming and attempting to fight with the hijackers. They shot him and threw him overboard.
A much younger, more powerful man attacked him. You can tell by his demeanor (my previous post) that he was preparing to renew the attack when the gun was pulled.
The man was trying to say because some offhand things were said in the thread, meant we could all be labeled Racist's. I think that's ignorant. When his argument was failing we all became racist. Typical tactical conversation terminator.
Not every ill chosen word is a dagger.
47 years old is hardly what I'd call an "elderly man".
No shit. Gunfighter, Greg L, and myself do qualify.
Didn't know his age. I wonder if he has medical issues?
His stature suggests issues then, since he isn't elderly.
Could be why he had such issues with the bitch parking in the HC space.
Apparently, his mother is handicapped and he threatened someone over the same space before (allegedly)
Then he should have notified the PoPo. Others have said its a really dangerous part of town. He knew that, thats why he had the piece. He was looking for trouble in a dangerous place and found it. Now a man is dead. What he deserved was to have his ass well beaten. What he should get is some jail time. I have little respect for trouble makers, white, black, or purple.
Four states south you have the right to defend.
Texas as well - both yourself, and another party who is in danger. Texas law also allows to shoot when fleeing some crimes, and a larger list after dark . . . including some property crimes. I won't bother with details here (search is your friend) but not all states mandate pussification . . .
Good judgement is still paramount, and I think all would agree that shooting someone should be a last resort . . . but there is no obligation to basically offer yourself as a willing victim either, as is the case in some other states.
Good judgement is still paramount, and I think all would agree that shooting someone should be a last resort . . . but there is no obligation to basically offer yourself as a willing victim either, as is the case in some other states.
I'm sorry you don't like my choice of words, but I swore off the entire PC agenda years ago. All I can say is that your "racial slurs" are my "earned adjectives" based on a realistic view of the behaviour of many of that group. I used to give benefit of the doubt, but since all this thuggery and "criminal and proud of it" attitude has surfaced, well, hell, I was being kind . . . It just makes my blood boil . . .
It bothered me as well but I wasnt going to say anything. I understand boiling blood but using terms like that just lowers you and makes them stronger. Racism, which is what that is, has no place here.
After reading the posts in this thread I have a question for the MEN here who have either a girlfriend or a wife. Please spare me with the righteous bullshit about how your girlfriend/wife is perfect and was born with 14 halos over her head and would never park in a handicap spot and can walk on water. This is just an example. If you were in the same position as the pusher in the video and you came outside and saw some belligerent man who you've never met in your entire life verbally harassing your girlfriend/wife, would you just stand there and do nothing or would you as a MAN do whatever it takes to get that potential threat away from your woman? Personally I feel if you would just stand there and do nothing, you don't deserve to be called a man.
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Well.............
You can call this shover "dead" now.....
Does he "DESERVE" to be called dead ?
And, my wife DOES walk on water..
Every time she mops....
Jfwiw, no professional "use of force" or "ccw" instructor would ever recommend your suggested course of action....
It's always de-escalate, de-escalate, de-escalate if at all possible, THEN resort to the necessary use of force.
By first showing any jury your "reasonable-ness, attempt to de-escalate, and "then" use of force", you have a much better chance of walking away clean.
Every day in the hood, somebody using your suggested thought process either dies, or gets wounded, with a changed life.....
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I agree with you politics wise and optics wise. I also agree with you about a shove not being life threatening. But, I've been in a lot of fights. I can handle myself, and I'm not afraid to take a couple of solid shots to the face when necessary. There are a lot of people who have never been in a fight in their lives. There are a lot of people who are extremely afraid of a fight, and some of them carry firearms, as is their right.
If you watch the video its clear that the Drejka wasn't aware McGlockton was there till the moment he pushed him. He essentially blindsided him. It wasn't a forearm shiver or an especially violent takedown, but I think it's clear it surprised Drejka. I think being blindsided and hitting the pavement shocked the hell out of him. He drew and fired pretty quick. I don't think there was a lot of time for him to consider whether his life was in danger or not. He doesn't even bother to get up off the pavement of a half a minute (an eternity in a fight) like he's still processing what happened.
If McGlockton had a weapon his reaction would have probably saved his life. As it is his reaction is just a shade this side of murder
Oh, but for some it is.
Not a joke. That’s actually shit you can buy.
THis. First thing you learn in Krav maga. Best thing to do is avoid.
Maser, your premise and question is interesting. The scenario boils down to emotional maturity. Regardless of someone’s actions we control and decide our response, or should be able to anyway. In this case the “pusher” could have simply gotten into the car and drove away. He chose to shove the shooter, that was his decision.
If someone is yelling at your wife and you step in, which you should do, the resolution is completely under your power, not the person doing the yelling. There is always a time and place for violence but if that is a persons first response, especially in situations like this, there is a lack of emotional maturity.
If someone is yelling at your wife and you step in, which you should do, the resolution is completely under your power, not the person doing the yelling. There is always a time and place for violence but if that is a persons first response, especially in situations like this, there is a lack of emotional maturity.
First off, if it's just verbal, I regard it as a *NON* threat at that point (or extremely minimal - no one ever died or was maimed from being talked to) - same as anyone else out there. I would ask what the problem is, and if he is correct, ask my wife to move, and apologize for the screwup. To me, *ZERO* verbal interactions justify violence - that's just a sign of a tiny brain that can't come up with a proper response, coupled with poor (or zero) impulse control! Just because you are a man doesn't mean you need to respond like a neanderthall! IMHO . . .
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i know that shove and the way he landed would have put me in the hospital
my back is fragged, i have to watch out for almost everything i do.
i would have taken the shot...
shooter looking for a fight has nothing to do with deadman pushing him down, everything changed at that moment.
my back is fragged, i have to watch out for almost everything i do.
i would have taken the shot...
shooter looking for a fight has nothing to do with deadman pushing him down, everything changed at that moment.
Assumptions. Where in the story does it say he went to the store looking for a parking violation? Has he confronted people in the past for misusing handicapped spaces? Sure. Does that mean that he roams around looking for it? No.
Was this guy from this neighborhood? Was he there for a gallon of milk and bread?
He confronted this lady like he would anyone else because this is his pet peeve. Out of the blue he is shoved to the ground. What is his mindset at that moment? Did he have reasonable fears of bodily harm? No one but him knows that. IF the DA thinks another Zimmerman trial is a good idea. We will find out if he is able to convince a jury of the man's fears or lack of them. In reality all of the other BS doesn't matter. It's those couple seconds from the point of being shoved to the ground until the trigger was squeezed and the shooter's fears.
The DA better hope for a plea deal.
Was this guy from this neighborhood? Was he there for a gallon of milk and bread?
He confronted this lady like he would anyone else because this is his pet peeve. Out of the blue he is shoved to the ground. What is his mindset at that moment? Did he have reasonable fears of bodily harm? No one but him knows that. IF the DA thinks another Zimmerman trial is a good idea. We will find out if he is able to convince a jury of the man's fears or lack of them. In reality all of the other BS doesn't matter. It's those couple seconds from the point of being shoved to the ground until the trigger was squeezed and the shooter's fears.
The DA better hope for a plea deal.
The parking cop mall ninja is fucked if a Zimmerman trial happens to him. The only reason Zimmerman got off was simply due to lack of evidence in his case. The parking lot case is gonna be totally different because of all the evidence presented.
For those of you who think the credible threat of a punch isn't a good reason to shoot someone: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/0...following-stepsister-wedding-reports-say.html
Hell, even a bitchslap could be lethal under certain circumstances such as an aneurysm in the brain.
I don't know where you live, but where I live the standard isn't "reasonable belief of the general population", it's "reasonable belief of the accused under the totality of the circumstance". Other factors, such as disparity of force (read strength) come into play here too.
So your point is lost on me.
Bullies go thier entire life thinking they can do whatever they want because schools and workplaces punish people that take exception because it's expediant.
Like all of a sudden your the bad guy..
Look up your states statutes on disparity of force and just shoot the bullies.
They don't learn unless hurt bad, they are used to a pretend scolding
and that shit don't work, ever.
Kind of like the nitely news, best removed from the gene pool.
Too bad some people don't get what they deserve because of thier precived status!
Feel me?
Like all of a sudden your the bad guy..
Look up your states statutes on disparity of force and just shoot the bullies.
They don't learn unless hurt bad, they are used to a pretend scolding
and that shit don't work, ever.
Kind of like the nitely news, best removed from the gene pool.
Too bad some people don't get what they deserve because of thier precived status!
Feel me?
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Your law degree is from where?
That's what I figured
