Rifle Scopes Army selects Sig Tango 6

[verdugo60]

And there it is...the can of worms!!

I have some theories on that... Mag size, I can do anything I need to with 9 rounds, I have no use for more. Truth be told I have a very sound theory that large magazine capacity turns self defense encounters into a spray and pray. All rational thought leaves the head and is replaced by fight/flight and pulling the trigger as fast as possible. I've watched endless hours of video on firearm encounters, law enforcement and civilian. Rarely, as in hardly ever/never, is a large capacity magazine necessary. Either one of or both parties try to get away from each other when the shooting starts. Even LEO encounters where the bad guy is committed to the fight are over very quickly. Give a guy 9 rounds instead of 17 and the realization of that may very well sneak in through the fog and make a guy find his front sight and make good shots. I'm certainly not going to pull my 1911 and just start flinging shots at someone.

Recoil? I can put 9 rounds on a 20" plate at 21 feet damn near as fast with a 45 as I can a 9mm. Closer than that and it's how fast you can pull the trigger. But driving the gun fast "shouldn't" be the point. If someone is going to stand there while you shoot either gun as fast as you can, that fight will be over pretty quick.

Same energy? Neither pack a huge punch, they are too slow. Ideally you get decent penetration without pass through. The 45 does make a pretty decent sized wound channel..

Honestly, with modern defense ammo, both are good. I carry a 45 but have a 9mm in my truck and the house. I'm fine with either. It's just fun to see this argument in the scope section of Sniper's Hide

Haha, yes the can of worms. In my defense I was here for scope talk until the ReeRee started going off about Glock superiority, lol.

I hear what you are saying on spray and pray but I have never talked to anyone that has been in a gunfight that wished they had less ammo. I can think of lots of scenarios where higher round count is better. Active shooter scenario, especially if you are the first one there engaging multiple people by yourself for example.

I read an article by a CHP guy that got in a gunfight with a homicide suspect and shot ALL of his ammo from his 45. His last round was a CNS shot to the head and ended the fight. Autopsy revealed the suspect had no drugs on board and he had 13 lethal hits in him, he just didn't know he was dead yet. The Officer started carrying a 9 after that with a couple extra mags. That is nothing against 45, we know handguns just aren't great man-stoppers in general, just an interesting take.

I won't post any more on LE duty guns here. I have no problem with people carrying a 45 if they like it and train and are competent. To me, with modern bullet technology it's just not worth the extra recoil and reduced capacity and for average cops and civilians I think it's the same. You just aren't gaining anything with a 45 anymore but you are giving things up.

 

[_Windrider_]

Haha, yes the can of worms. In my defense I was here for scope talk until the ReeRee started going off about Glock superiority, lol.

I hear what you are saying on spray and pray but I have never talked to anyone that has been in a gunfight that wished they had less ammo. I can think of lots of scenarios where higher round count is better. Active shooter scenario, especially if you are the first one there engaging multiple people by yourself for example.

I read an article by a CHP guy that got in a gunfight with a homicide suspect and shot ALL of his ammo from his 45. His last round was a CNS shot to the head and ended the fight. Autopsy revealed the suspect had no drugs on board and he had 13 lethal hits in him, he just didn't know he was dead yet. The Officer started carrying a 9 after that with a couple extra mags. That is nothing against 45, we know handguns just aren't great man-stoppers in general, just an interesting take.

I won't post any more on LE duty guns here. I have no problem with people carrying a 45 if they like it and train and are competent. To me, with modern bullet technology it's just not worth the extra recoil and reduced capacity and for average cops and civilians I think it's the same. You just aren't gaining anything with a 45 anymore but you are giving things up.

Perspective, my grandfather carried a 38 s&w when he was CHP.

 

[KM375]

Anyone remember when the US Army used a fixed 10x on the M24 as the Primary Sniper weapon system. 1-6 is plenty for a DMR better than a fixed 4x acog, 1x on the low end for close in and 6x for distance. I went to a DMR class recently using a different 1-6 mil based optic, and was getting hits on E-type sized steel out to 700 using holds and dialing.
Like it was mentioned above its not a Sniper weapons system its a DMR.

 

[verdugo60]

I think many of you are right, if we are talking DMR in a traditional sense this combination makes sense.

Where it doesn't make sense is if these designated marksmen are going to be one of the ones responsible for engaging and killing enemy in the Hindu Kush that are outdistancing our small arms with rpk's, etc. This seems to be a big issue on everyone's mind lately. Originally DM's were supposed to be part of the fix for longer encounters happening in Afghanistan and it seems more important than ever.

So it seems too little too late if that will be any sizeable portion of their role.

I think it's hard for most of us that have a long range mindset and background to see our boys going into harm's way without being able to outdistance our enemy.

If supply and logistics weren't an issue I would say do a hybrid sniper/dmr class with 6.5 Creedmoor semi-auto with a 2.5-10 or 3-15, issue a mil-dot master, and drop charts for their ammo and guys could scrounge or buy range finders or maybe SIG 2400's given out(since some Senator seems to be granting them favors anyhow). The class wouldn't include stalking, ghillies, etc but would mainly just be an intro on the weapon system and reading reticle, mils, misses and correcting for them.

Supply, logistics and training time ARE an issue though, so I guess this is a step up from a fixed 4x acog on a 556. Hard to consider that a DMR since Infantry Marines were using that combo since 2006 or whatever.

 

[TheGerman]

I used to carrry an MP40 as my duty weapon in a previous life. No love lost for it.

A M&P40 or a MP40?

Huge difference and I don't think you're 80 years old.

 

[TheGerman]

I think many of you are right, if we are talking DMR in a traditional sense this combination makes sense.

Where it doesn't make sense is if these designated marksmen are going to be one of the ones responsible for engaging and killing enemy in the Hindu Kush that are outdistancing our small arms with rpk's, etc. This seems to be a big issue on everyone's mind lately. Originally DM's were supposed to be part of the fix for longer encounters happening in Afghanistan and it seems more important than ever.

So it seems too little too late if that will be any sizeable portion of their role.

I think it's hard for most of us that have a long range mindset and background to see our boys going into harm's way without being able to outdistance our enemy.

If supply and logistics weren't an issue I would say do a hybrid sniper/dmr class with 6.5 Creedmoor semi-auto with a 2.5-10 or 3-15, issue a mil-dot master, and drop charts for their ammo and guys could scrounge or buy range finders or maybe SIG 2400's given out(since some Senator seems to be granting them favors anyhow). The class wouldn't include stalking, ghillies, etc but would mainly just be an intro on the weapon system and reading reticle, mils, misses and correcting for them.

Supply, logistics and training time ARE an issue though, so I guess this is a step up from a fixed 4x acog on a 556. Hard to consider that a DMR since Infantry Marines were using that combo since 2006 or whatever.

It was a huge concern when I was there in 2007, 2008 and 2009. The optic was never the issue, it was the fact that when they'd pick a fight with us it was always at distances of 700, 800+ and high angles. While a 308 can perform there, why not use a better tool? I mean a wrench CAN pound in a nail, but why not use a fucking hammer? 6.5CM in a CSASS was something me and a lot of others thought the obvious next gen thing was. Apparently now, for the Army at least, its same caliber, shorter barrel with a 1-6 optic. As I said in my first post, this may work in Iraq, but when the PKM fun is coming from 1200 yards from above your flank, have fun with that 1-6 optic.

The good news is, these will be issued and promptly be replaced by one of the many better optics that are floating around over there.

 

[verdugo60]

An

A M&P40 or a MP40?

Huge difference and I don't think you're 80 years old.

An MP40 would make an excellent duty gun, lol.

 

[verdugo60]

It was a huge concern when I was there in 2007, 2008 and 2009. The optic was never the issue, it was the fact that when they'd pick a fight with us it was always at distances of 700, 800+ and high angles. While a 308 can perform there, why not use a better tool? I mean a wrench CAN pound in a nail, but why not use a fucking hammer? 6.5CM in a CSASS was something me and a lot of others thought the obvious next gen thing was. Apparently now, for the Army at least, its same caliber, shorter barrel with a 1-6 optic. As I said in my first post, this may work in Iraq, but when the PKM fun is coming from 1200 yards from above your flank, have fun with that 1-6 optic.

The good news is, these will be issued and promptly be replaced by one of the many better optics that are floating around over there.

Exactly, seems like it's not nearly enough to solve the main issue the DMR was suppose to address. I'm not military, but the average grunt doesn't need 1200 yd capability, and that is an unrealistic goal for current weapon systems, ammo, and training.

As you said, a CSASS in 6.5 cm with a higher power optic would be a much better tool to do what they need in the 'Stan.

I guess individuals can throw a different optic on and maybe still get hits with 308 (M118lr?) at 1000 yds+ but not the ideal tool. Anyone want to donate some Warner flatline custom loaded ammo?

 

[koshkin]

It is more additional training than a command will want to invest and thats the problem. Generally, the command doesn't care about it, know about it, or want to care to know about how things work. Maybe its different now due to DMR's being a more recognized billet across the board but a few years ago it was a pick the best shooter/s in the platoon and here ya go

Not sure how it works in the other branches but in the MC, guys that are chosen to have a DMR are generally given no training at all and just got the Mk12 in country. Before my first deployment, about 20 or so Marines (maybe fewer, but mostly jr. with no experience) out of the entire company were lucky and got a three week crasher course from the STA guys but it was a basic, no frills deal to just get us used to the system and how to employ it effectively. No learning about mils, moa, holdovers, etc. and then did a 160rd "qual" out to 600m and never touched a Mk12 again until we got in country and then only two of us in our platoon got them.

To piss on the fire more, our command solely didn't give a shit about having the DMR's employed despite how extremely valuable we proved it to be in usage and because we were about 30+ Marines short and pulling triple billets had our Mk12's taken away because they didn't want TL's to have them, so nobody had them in our platoon for the remainder of the deployment.

As whack as the BDC is, putting it to use was easier than trying to figure out holdovers in a fast paced and dynamic situation with little to no training. For close range, sure guys would figure out holdovers but most would just crank the turret to its intended range because it was much easier.

As per the 1-6x on a DMR rifle. To me, it makes sense and maybe a 1-8x would have been a better option but I wish I had it either instead of the 2.5-8x leupy.

The lack of training is quite disheartening. It really does not make much. Contrary to what the consensus here is, I think a quality 6x can take you pretty far out and I routinely shoot pretty far with 4x ad 6x scopes. However, as with everything, it takes training and practice.

ILya

 

[Deleted member 113831]

The lack of training is quite disheartening. It really does not make much. Contrary to what the consensus here is, I think a quality 6x can take you pretty far out and I routinely shoot pretty far with 4x ad 6x scopes. However, as with everything, it takes training and practice.

ILya

You can shoot something out to 800 yards, or even further with a 6x, depending on the thickness of the reticle. It's adequate for shooting things that you know for sure need to be shot.

What it does not do, is provide enough magnification or resolution to reliably determine whether THAT something is actually THE something that needs to be shot. Target ID is a prerequisite to target engagement.

 

[verdugo60]

The lack of training is quite disheartening. It really does not make much. Contrary to what the consensus here is, I think a quality 6x can take you pretty far out and I routinely shoot pretty far with 4x ad 6x scopes. However, as with everything, it takes training and practice.

ILya

I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that you can get some work done with a 1-6x. I live at 5000 ft above sea level and use an optically inferior Vortex strike eagle 1-6 with bdc to hit 10" steel rounds at 600 yds with a 16" AR-15.

A slow 308 at 10,000' feet above sea level will probably stay supersonic to near 1000 yds?

Maybe if training is going to be that piss poor this is a decent option. It's not going to address the threat that has been there for years of high altitude RPK fire even though the Army supposedly wants a weapon/ammo solution for EVERY grunt out there to outdistance this. That concept seems asenine if their DMR's can't even address that.

Plus what happens when we convert every grunt to a polymer cased 6/6.5mm with whatever optic and then end up fighting a jungle war with engagements @ 30 yds?

 

[verdugo60]

Just some quick estimates in my ballistics calc. 173 gr m118LR at 2300 fps with a DA of 12,000 ft (simulation of elevation and temp in Afghanistan).

Goes subsonic at 1140 yds, requires almost 16 mils of elevation.

Interestingly the mils line up at corresponding distances pretty close to 600 yds like a bdc, i.e. @ 200 yds it's .8, 300 is 1.8, etc. So with a higher powered optic in mils it could still be dummy proof to 600 yds but those with more knowledge/training could dial actual dope.

 

[jLorenzo]

What you need is a 7.62x25 with a modern bullet design in a 1911 platform.

ILya

Yuck. Just buy a .357 sig and be done.

 

[jLorenzo]

I don't think the DMRs are the ones killing all the badguys. You have a DSHK at 8-1000y away, use the 50, MK19 and air strikes. The G38 isn't a SWS. I think the mag range and BDC are fine. They only use 1 type of ammo so BDC will be totally acceptable. Theyre not sniping as others have said. Its the Sig part that seems odd, doesnt seem like a proven, tough optic. But I dont know much about the sig stuff. I think the 1x bottom end is more important than having say a 10x top end. (When someone figures out how to make a really good 1x10 then well be in business

 

[346ci]

Hmm didn't realize the hate for m&p. I have an m&p with thousands of rounds through it suppressed and unsuppresed. It eats all types of ammo with 0 problems and evidently hold my own against hk glocks sigs etc.

It's just one opinion, who shoots a stock pistol anyway? My M&P Pro 1.0 with a Apex comp kit is the cat's azz for matches, several thousand rounds, there isn't another plastic pistol that can compare.

 

[koshkin]

I don't think the DMRs are the ones killing all the badguys. You have a DSHK at 8-1000y away, use the 50, MK19 and air strikes. The G38 isn't a SWS. I think the mag range and BDC are fine. They only use 1 type of ammo so BDC will be totally acceptable. Theyre not sniping as others have said. Its the Sig part that seems odd, doesnt seem like a proven, tough optic. But I dont know much about the sig stuff. I think the 1x bottom end is more important than having say a 10x top end. (When someone figures out how to make a really good 1x10 then well be in business

March makes a very decent 1-10x24, so it is possible and it is likely coming from other makers.

 

[Primus]

Our current engagements are 1000+ . 6x is nowhere near enough mag to A. Make a positive I'd and actually locate the target and B. Hit them. They aren't a bunch of morons jumping up and down making a nice ipsc target for you.

 

[Primus]

It's just one opinion, who shoots a stock pistol anyway? My M&P Pro 1.0 with a Apex comp kit is the cat's azz for matches, several thousand rounds, there isn't another plastic pistol that can compare.

People who get paid to carry a gun for a living and those who actually engage in armed combat. More dirt shooters talking out their ass is the last thing this thread needs.

 

[koshkin]

Our current engagements are 1000+ . 6x is nowhere near enough mag to A. Make a positive I'd and actually locate the target and B. Hit them. They aren't a bunch of morons jumping up and down making a nice ipsc target for you.

If the engagement is at 1000+, a short barreled 308, while an improvement over 223, is the wrong platform.

I think I'll re-phrase my take on this as follows: I think that a 1-6x ro 1-8x scope on a short(ish) barreled 308 is a good match of the scope to the gun that makes a pretty flexible general purpose platform.

However, the whole thing is suboptimal if your typical engagement distance is beyond 1000 meters. For that, you really should be thinking about a different cartridge.

Given that our next military engagement is likely to be in a somewhat different terrain, I think this is a good weapon system to be in the service.

ILya

 

[Primus]

Not much can be done about the calibers. I have been a huge proponet of moving towards 5.56, 6.5C and 300NM as our standard calibers.

Guys are going to be using 762 and 556, its that simple. Even if the rounds are transonic, erratic and past their effective range, you can still put lead into fuckers beyond that. Even a tumbling, subsonic 556 round hitting an asshole or around him is going to get him to stop what he is doing. But guys needs to be able to see the asshole to hit him.

 

[jLorenzo]

Our current engagements are 1000+ . 6x is nowhere near enough mag to A. Make a positive I'd and actually locate the target and B. Hit them. They aren't a bunch of morons jumping up and down making a nice ipsc target for you.

Where are you getting the 1000+ data from just curious. Makes sense with a DSHK but small arms, I don't see it.

 

[jLorenzo]

Also do we know the distance this weapon system is supposed to be used for? I've seen G38s with S&B ultra shorts. (Which is what I'd want, along with an M2010 for the long stuff.

 

[verdugo60]

Where are you getting the 1000+ data from just curious. Makes sense with a DSHK but small arms, I don't see it.

Much of the discussion around changing calibers/weapons for US Troops has been spurred by tactics by the enemy in Afghanistan.

Seems that they like to set high angle, long distance ambushes (700-1200 yds?) with mid to high caliber machine guns and lay rounds down on our troops. I'm not an expert on this but guessing with PKM's (7.62x54) and maybe DShK's, which I think is close to our 50 bmg.

So if artillery or air support is not available our troops are using small arms to shoot back. The m4 is obviously getting outdistanced at those ranges and this current DMR combo probably would be too. Obviously snipers would be ideal for this but not everyone has snipers, again: time, training, equipment.

Anyway, those distances are galvinizing change in multiple small arms platforms. Probably not a coincidence that Marine Scout snipers are now running a 300 win mag with a 5-25 NF ATACR vs the old M40 in 308 win. They are getting an extra 400 yds at least with that combination. The Marines got the optic selection right.

Someone in another thread who had been "over there" was saying the best "small arms" medicine would be a remote controlled, turret mounted, beltfed in 300 Norma, which may actually be in the works. Even fired from a bipod by a human that would reach out a ways!

So in summary: DMR's are suppose to extend the effective range of our small arms capability in lieu of trained snipers and we fielded a 1-6x optic of questionable quality on a short barreled 308. Not the best tool to answer the threat of 1000 yds plus, nor is it the 3rd or 4th best tool, lol.

 

[verdugo60]

The purpose of a DMR is not to extend range to 1k, it's to provide more accurate hits out to the 600-800m range depending on on whether your shooter wears a pizza box or a crossed rifles. 1k is the range for a designated sniper.

The continuing exaggeration of tactics in Afghanistan remind me of a fisherman's ever expanding trout, which gains a pound every telling. High angle ambushes beyond 500m are rare and largely a tactic employed to strike roads in the mountains and foothills. Most combat is still within the 600m envelope, and looking forward to other engagements and ongoing actions in other parts of the world the DMR is still an important tool for overwatch and patrol. The DMR is not intended to break 1200m heavy weapons ambushes.

Did you spend time in combat over there? I did not, so I'm honestly curious how often this is actually happening.

I think the biggest issue is that this optic is suitable to about 600 meters Max and with a different scope/and or caliber it could have been given several hundred more meters of effective range. This may all be moot if guys are throwing S&B ultra-shorts on the gun over there but I can't imagine a ton of those just laying around. Just because it's the range of a designated sniper doesn't mean a sniper will be there to handle it. That was the whole idea of a DM, tkae the best shot in the unit and extend his range for when no snipers are around. If you could extend that range more with pretty basic training and better optics selection, why not do it?

 

[Primus]

Just nuetron bomb the whole region and be done with it. It's going to happen sooner or later if Western Civilization wants to survive.

 

[Primus]

And needs more Carl g and 60 mm knee mortars.

 

[koshkin]

Haha, and there we have it..

/end of debate

In the interest of full disclaimer, I do not own a 7.62x25 gun, but I found over the years that the mere mention of it usually stops 9mm vs 45ACP debates in their track as everyone gangs up on the 7.62x25.

ILya

 

[plong]

In the interest of full disclaimer, I do not own a 7.62x25 gun, but I found over the years that the mere mention of it usually stops 9mm vs 45ACP debates in their track as everyone gangs up on the 7.62x25.

ILya

That, in and of itself, is reason enough to buy one... pretty-much makes it the most powerful handgun caliber on the planet ?!

 

[Hippy_Steve]

wow, what a poor choice by our military.

 

[verdugo60]

I did. Helmand province in the Marjah area, pretty flat terrain, mostly shoot and scoot. Further north, Kajaki Dam and the Shrine things were more hilly/mountainous. I was an 0351, so in lieu of a SMAW I carried a radio or the Mk12. Our STA team would assist, or sometimes would patrol with us to new areas, and even then the M110 wasn't being used for 800m shooting. Maybe I have a breacher'a bias, but when we did occasionally get into 800m engagements without a STA team, we used mortars and machineguns to cover while we moved in.

"Extending range" might mean something different. We qualified with M4s and M16s at 500m on the KD, and our in-house DM school saw some 700m shooting with Mk12s and M16s, but at that range it was faster for a machinegun team to lay waste with a 240. The army doesn't routinely shoot for 500, so maybe they view the DMR as extending the marksman's range significantly, but for breaking a 1000m heavy ambush I'd take a two man team with 60mm mortars or a two-man Javelin team over two DMs with SAM-Rs or M110s, regardless of the glass. For patrolling Helmand, going building to building in a compound before a 300m move to another compound, I'd jump on a G28 or similar with something like a NF 2-10 for a DM. I personally would have preferred to carry something like the AAC Honey Badger and a couple LAW rockets, but again I have the Boom Boom Brain. I only took the Mk12 because we had a legit RTO and a JFO that would take the radio, and needed to give the other DM a break occasionally.

I don't know Army TTPs that well, but I can understand if we just used our specialists (small S) at a lower level more fluidly than the Army is used to.

Interesting, thanks for your insight and service. I didn't understand half your acronyms, but that's ok I got the gist, lol.

Easy to forget as a civilian that you guys have a lot of good tools in between Artillery and M4's that AREN'T scoped rifles.

 

[verdugo60]

@koshkin, let me know if you find a 7.62x25, maybe we can get a BOGO free. I want it for my backup/belly gun in case a debate breaks out while I'm cruising Cabela's.

 

[LRRPF52]

Anyone remember when the US Army used a fixed 10x on the M24 as the Primary Sniper weapon system. 1-6 is plenty for a DMR better than a fixed 4x acog, 1x on the low end for close in and 6x for distance. I went to a DMR class recently using a different 1-6 mil based optic, and was getting hits on E-type sized steel out to 700 using holds and dialing.
Like it was mentioned above its not a Sniper weapons system its a DMR.

Most people on these forums don't have the first clue what a Designated Marksman is, so this is why we get threads like this where people are arguing about Glock vs M&P in one derail, and how much better an HKG28 in 6.5CM with a 3-20x50 Schmidt would be.

If your avatar is any indication, I know you already know this, but I'll point out some things to set a baseline for what a DM is for those that don't.

First and foremost, a Designated Marksman is a fighting member of his Rifle Squad and Fire Team in an Infantry or dismounted Infantry unit conducting combat operations using infantry tactics. His #1 job is still a Rifleman who must shoot, move, and communicate with his Fire Team and Squad, or other Platoon mates while closing with and destroying the enemy, or repelling his counter-attack.

What the DM brings to the Squad above and beyond a Rifleman is:

1. Enhanced Situational Awareness with a magnified optic and training how to use that optic
2. Increased hit probability on point targets out to the maximum effective range of his rifle

His weapon needs to be maneuverable like those of the Rifleman, but equipped with better optics for TGT detection, PID, and more precise fires. When I think DM in the current Rifle Squads, I think of a 5.56 Carbine with a free-floated barrel, and at least a 1-6x scope with decent glass and a useful reticle, capped knobs that are low-profile, and robust construction.

As KM375 pointed out, this isn't a dedicated Sniper System or even a Sniper Support Rifle. A rifleman needs to be able to shoot and move with his Fire Team with something lightweight, and about as maneuverable as an M4.

As such, I think the Sig Tango 1-6x is more than enough. Sure, a 1-8x would be nice, as long as you don't lose the forgiving exit pupil, and therein lies the rub with 1-8xs.

The combination of the Sig Tango 1-6x on a lightweight Block II or newer SOPMOD-style free-float carbine makes sense. Think of a modern evolution of the "Reece" carbines that were being built in the Unit and within Dev back in the day.

 

[Bandit31]

Did you spend time in combat over there? I did not, so I'm honestly curious how often this is actually happening.

I think the biggest issue is that this optic is suitable to about 600 meters Max and with a different scope/and or caliber it could have been given several hundred more meters of effective range. This may all be moot if guys are throwing S&B ultra-shorts on the gun over there but I can't imagine a ton of those just laying around. Just because it's the range of a designated sniper doesn't mean a sniper will be there to handle it. That was the whole idea of a DM, tkae the best shot in the unit and extend his range for when no snipers are around. If you could extend that range more with pretty basic training and better optics selection, why not do it?

IMO, the only issue is the ranges and roles people perceive SDM's are operating in and that may add to the confusion on why none of these decisions make an immense amount of sense. The whole idea behind the SDM is to make quick and accurate engagements at ranges slightly beyond what the average infantryman is capable of, so normally 600m and out to 800ish on the extreme end.

The other issue that people don't understand is that until recently ( I'm just assuming training may be implemented being that SDM's are becoming a more recognized billet) training was slim to nothing. During workups, there's little time to train individuals on how to properly deploy as an SDM especially considering that they may not have DM rifles on deployment or their command may not let them use them (which happened to us half way through) As I said before, some units just hand whomever their best shooter is and have them figure things out on their own, some get some familiarization training, and some have more advanced training they bring to their individual units ( such as those from security forces). Ultimately, there's hardly been any desire to improve or implement any advancements for SDM's. The Army may be different but for the Corps, it was at the bottom of the totem pole for priorities.

 

[LRRPF52]

The purpose of a DMR is not to extend range to 1k, it's to provide more accurate hits out to the 600-800m range depending on on whether your shooter wears a pizza box or a crossed rifles. 1k is the range for a designated sniper.

The continuing exaggeration of tactics in Afghanistan remind me of a fisherman's ever expanding trout, which gains a pound every telling. High angle ambushes beyond 500m are rare and largely a tactic employed to strike roads in the mountains and foothills. Most combat is still within the 600m envelope, and looking forward to other engagements and ongoing actions in other parts of the world the DMR is still an important tool for overwatch and patrol. The DMR is not intended to break 1200m heavy weapons ambushes.

Roger that. Lightweight Mortars and organic Machine-guns are plenty capable of addressing the longer distances, as are attached Snipers from HHC.

I think a lot of people just don't understand that M4s maybe make up half of the weapons in a dismounted Infantry unit, and there are a whole lot of other ones that make bigger booms with farther reach already.

Within an Infantry Platoon, we already have:

2 x M240L 7.62 NATO Machineguns
6 x M249 PIP SAWs
6 x M230 40mm GLs
AT4s
Carl Gustavs

For patrolling in mountainous terrain, it isn't out of the ordinary to tag along the 11Cs with a 60mm. If someone is telling you that the US Army has no capability to engage targets at any of the distances being discussed here, like 800-1200m, you know right away they have no context for the conditions of the job, no knowledge about the MTO&E, and no relevant information about how Infantry Squads and Platoons actually train and fight.

It was also very normal for us (Battalion-level Snipers from the Scout Platoon) to be attached to the line platoons, or when I was more senior, to have Snipers attached to us the same way I used to do when I was younger. The weapons systems and optics available have improved and increased substantially over what we had back in the days of the M21 and M24/M3A in a line unit.

I saw someone mention something about purchasing your own LRFs. We had LRFs issued to us in Scout Sniper Platoons, and they could laze way out to 5k meters IIRC (PVS-5 MELIOS). In Sniper sections, some guys purchased old school mini Bushnell LRFs before the last few waves of major improvements in optics available to Snipers.

 

[koshkin]

@koshkin, let me know if you find a 7.62x25, maybe we can get a BOGO free. I want it for my backup/belly gun in case a debate breaks out while I'm cruising Cabela's.

Just get one of these for your 1911:
http://www.jgsales.com/j-g-sales-7....ringfield-in-9mm-or-38super.-new.-p-6472.html

Otherwise, CZ52 and Tokarev,

ILya

 

[LRRPF52]

IMO, the only issue is the ranges and roles people perceive SDM's are operating in and that may add to the confusion on why none of these decisions make an immense amount of sense. The whole idea behind the SDM is to make quick and accurate engagements at ranges slightly beyond what the average infantryman is capable of, so normally 600m and out to 800ish on the extreme end.

The other issue that people don't understand is that until recently ( I'm just assuming training may be implemented being that SDM's are becoming a more recognized billet) training was slim to nothing. During workups, there's little time to train individuals on how to properly deploy as an SDM especially considering that they may not have DM rifles on deployment or their command may not let them use them (which happened to us half way through) As I said before, some units just hand whomever their best shooter is and have them figure things out on their own, some get some familiarization training, and some have more advanced training they bring to their individual units ( such as those from security forces). Ultimately, there's hardly been any desire to improve or implement any advancements for SDM's. The Army may be different but for the Corps, it was at the bottom of the totem pole for priorities.

Roger that. The biggest problem is that at least on the Army end (It was this way in the USMC for a long time too.), leaders don't know what a DM is, haven't been shown an MTO&E with DMs in the Rifle Squad, so the DM skill set doesn't get the support it needs.

If you incorporated the DM skill set into:

* IBOLO'd training for the US Army Infantry Officers,
* IOC for the Marines Infantry Officers,
* Supported it in the NCO academies for professional development,
* Formal patrolling schools like Ranger School, Pre-Ranger, SUTs in the Q Course,
* USMC Infantry Squad Leader Course (they may have done this already in the USMC)

.....then held unit-level competitions and training events, with Instructor training driven by 4th RTB and AMU, things would change. Simply having the weapons and optics isn't going to change things that much because leaders don't know what DMs are, how they help them accomplish their jobs, and increase lethality/survivability of the unit, while reducing civilian casualties in increasinly-urbanized areas.

The horse has to come before the cart.

 

[LRShooter101]

Something that has been left out of this topic and was also left out of some other recent topics about new Mil optics.

The Battlefield and ROE (Rules of Engagement) have changed!

The change in distance was covered above, however something else very important has been left out.

The days of simply raining hate in the general direction of a suspected threat are largely over thanks to new ROE. If a positive threat cannot be identified, then troops can't just indiscriminately fire at what may be a threat.

Given the bad guys look just like everyone else, and the civilian population can be closely mixed in with the combatants, troops must be much more discerning with where and who they are shooting at. If an Infantry unit engages a threat that turns out to be innocent civilians, and women and children are killed, someone is going to be held accountable!

In order to do that, they need better optics with higher levels of magnification. They also need much better training on how to use those optics!

Per some of the comments above, they could easily be using something like a 2-10 or 3-15 to be able to much better identify what it is really happening on the battlefield and what is really a threat. As far as still being able to operate at closer ranges, they could be using BUIS on a 45 offset or a Red Dot piggyback or on 45 offset. If you look at what top 3-Gunners are doing, they can easily engage close range targets in a CQB setting, and then engage targets at longer ranges. The key to remember with that comparison, is that most 3 Gunners are not having to determine Friend or Foe at the longer ranges, so they can get away with a 6 or 8 power on the top end.

The Military is moving forward on many fronts, but it is very sad that most civilians at a competitive match are still better equipped and trained. It is also very sad that the Military Troops are being help to new standards with the changing ROE, but they are not being given the equipment and training to succeed.

Work Smarter Not Harder! Hopefully the Military can get there some day.

 

[Primus]

Roger that. Lightweight Mortars and organic Machine-guns are plenty capable of addressing the longer distances, as are attached Snipers from HHC.

I think a lot of people just don't understand that M4s maybe make up half of the weapons in a dismounted Infantry unit, and there are a whole lot of other ones that make bigger booms with farther reach already.

Within an Infantry Platoon, we already have:

2 x M240L 7.62 NATO Machineguns
6 x M249 PIP SAWs
6 x M230 40mm GLs
AT4s
Carl Gustavs

For patrolling in mountainous terrain, it isn't out of the ordinary to tag along the 11Cs with a 60mm. If someone is telling you that the US Army has no capability to engage targets at any of the distances being discussed here, like 800-1200m, you know right away they have no context for the conditions of the job, no knowledge about the MTO&E, and no relevant information about how Infantry Squads and Platoons actually train and fight.

It was also very normal for us (Battalion-level Snipers from the Scout Platoon) to be attached to the line platoons, or when I was more senior, to have Snipers attached to us the same way I used to do when I was younger. The weapons systems and optics available have improved and increased substantially over what we had back in the days of the M21 and M24/M3A in a line unit.

I saw someone mention something about purchasing your own LRFs. We had LRFs issued to us in Scout Sniper Platoons, and they could laze way out to 5k meters IIRC (PVS-5 MELIOS). In Sniper sections, some guys purchased old school mini Bushnell LRFs before the last few waves of major improvements in optics available to Snipers.

Weapons that exist and weapons you can put on the enemy right now are two different things. Not every dismount patrol has a Carl g or mortar with them. Platoon size patrols are not the norm and with the terrain, you can hardly maneuver anyway. Battle drill 2 is great at ranger school, doesn't work i up in the mountains where your patrol is in a draw and getting pkm fire from a ridge a few k higher and over a klick away. Furthermore getting fire support is a bitch with our pussifed commanders and risk adverse air Force who are scared to get their hands dirty or fly durring the day. Even if you could somehow maneuver a fire team or squad to the enemies position, they will be long long gone. Afghanistan has thrown a huge monkey wrench into big army warfighting doctrine.

The secret is to kill all the locals when you get attacked. They are all bad actors, supporters or subordinate. If they aren't willing to kill the enemy to defend their own land they A. Don't deserve to breathe and B. Makes you wonder why we are waiting our fucking treasure and blood there in the first place.

At the end of the day, even aDM with some better glass can suppress a gun team better than a guy with a m4 and a 6x when talking about the ranges here. They need to be supported by heavy belt feds, mortars and actual fire support from CAS and Arty.

Don't let doctrine brain lock you out of a common sense approach.

 

[Primus]

Get rid of dependents and force soldiers to be actual soldiers first (like the legions of Rome used to) without all the baggage and the Tens of Billions saved would outfit every Soldier and Marine with latest and greatest Kit DARPA could wizard up.

Gear and training will always come second to tricare, dependapatapus and BAH life as long as they exist. Lets make it not.

 

[fdkay]

Something that has been left out of this topic and was also left out of some other recent topics about new Mil optics.

The Battlefield and ROE (Rules of Engagement) have changed!

The change in distance was covered above, however something else very important has been left out.

The days of simply raining hate in the general direction of a suspected threat are largely over thanks to new ROE. If a positive threat cannot be identified, then troops can't just indiscriminately fire at what may be a threat.

Given the bad guys look just like everyone else, and the civilian population can be closely mixed in with the combatants, troops must be much more discerning with where and who they are shooting at. If an Infantry unit engages a threat that turns out to be innocent civilians, and women and children are killed, someone is going to be held accountable!

In order to do that, they need better optics with higher levels of magnification. They also need much better training on how to use those optics!

Per some of the comments above, they could easily be using something like a 2-10 or 3-15 to be able to much better identify what it is really happening on the battlefield and what is really a threat. As far as still being able to operate at closer ranges, they could be using BUIS on a 45 offset or a Red Dot piggyback or on 45 offset. If you look at what top 3-Gunners are doing, they can easily engage close range targets in a CQB setting, and then engage targets at longer ranges. The key to remember with that comparison, is that most 3 Gunners are not having to determine Friend or Foe at the longer ranges, so they can get away with a 6 or 8 power on the top end.

The Military is moving forward on many fronts, but it is very sad that most civilians at a competitive match are still better equipped and trained. It is also very sad that the Military Troops are being help to new standards with the changing ROE, but they are not being given the equipment and training to succeed.

Work Smarter Not Harder! Hopefully the Military can get there some day.

Have you ever tried to clear a room with off set sights?
What happens when you have your sights offset on the right side of the weapon and you have to clear from the right side of the door way?
I'll tell you what happens. you end up in the middle of the threshold before you can bring your sights to bear.
Sure, you can add an RDS, another electronic to worry about and batteries to carry.
3 gunning, IPSC and such are games.
There is no real world application in what they do tactics wise.
Trying to slice the pie while running offset sights will get you dead.
For fucks sake, these are not sniper rifles, they are infantry carbines with magnified optics. They have to do several jobs.
Any time you make a specialty tool to do multiple jobs, it will do them generally well, but will not excel at any one thing.
You want to ID something or someone? Break out your fucking binoculars.
The Tango 6 is a LOW made optic, which nearly everyone agrees, makes very good optics.

 

[verdugo60]

IMO, the only issue is the ranges and roles people perceive SDM's are operating in and that may add to the confusion on why none of these decisions make an immense amount of sense. The whole idea behind the SDM is to make quick and accurate engagements at ranges slightly beyond what the average infantryman is capable of, so normally 600m and out to 800ish on the extreme end.

The other issue that people don't understand is that until recently ( I'm just assuming training may be implemented being that SDM's are becoming a more recognized billet) training was slim to nothing. During workups, there's little time to train individuals on how to properly deploy as an SDM especially considering that they may not have DM rifles on deployment or their command may not let them use them (which happened to us half way through) As I said before, some units just hand whomever their best shooter is and have them figure things out on their own, some get some familiarization training, and some have more advanced training they bring to their individual units ( such as those from security forces). Ultimately, there's hardly been any desire to improve or implement any advancements for SDM's. The Army may be different but for the Corps, it was at the bottom of the totem pole for priorities.

Makes sense. Between several recent posts I think there are some misperceptions on the civilian side about the role of DMR's. Threads like this may take some detours but ultimately can be enlightening from guys that have "been there, done that." I don't mind deferring to people like that one bit, I enjoy learning from the experience of others.

And I get that for those who know it can be annoying as hell to listen to ignorant people arm chair quarterback.

 

[koshkin]

Have you ever tried to clear a room with off set sights?
What happens when you have your sights offset on the right side of the weapon and you have to clear from the right side of the door way?
I'll tell you what happens. you end up in the middle of the threshold before you can bring your sights to bear.
Sure, you can add an RDS, another electronic to worry about and batteries to carry.
3 gunning, IPSC and such are games.
There is no real world application in what they do tactics wise.
Trying to slice the pie while running offset sights will get you dead.
For fucks sake, these are not sniper rifles, they are infantry carbines with magnified optics. They have to do several jobs.
Any time you make a specialty tool to do multiple jobs, it will do them generally well, but will not excel at any one thing.
You want to ID something or someone? Break out your fucking binoculars.
The Tango 6 is a LOW made optic, which nearly everyone agrees, makes very good optics.

Interesting perspective. I am now experimenting with different types of piggy back red dot sights and ran into the same issue with door clearing when using a 45 degree offset RDS. My sorta "standard" set-up on an accurate 5.56 carbine is Elcan Spectre OS 4x with a red dot right on top of it (that's my profile picutre). I do not like having to raise my head to use the RDS, but it is workable. Cheekweld with the Elcan and chinweld with the RDS. I shoot off of both sides, so this kind of symmetric setup works well for me.

Presumably, that is where a 1-6x really has an advantage. A good quality modern low power variable like the Tango6 is damn near in performance to a reflex sight when set on 1x. The low power variable I like the most at the moment (in its price range) is the Burris XTR II 1-8x24FFP. On 1x, that 10 mrad ring is really easy to pick up and anything inside it is toast. Tango6, if I remember correctly does have brighter illumination than XTR II. When the commercial version gets updated, I will get my hands on one for a proper test.

ILya

 

[verdugo60]

I have always said if I could only grab one rifle it would be my AR with a 1-6x on it. Good from 0-700ish yards, light enough to carry with plenty of mags. I would miss the AI and custom bolt guns but that one has the most versatility. Guess this decision makes more sense than I thought at first. I'll be curious to see how the Sig tango holds up. Ilya, you said you tested the commercial version?

Personally the NF 1-8 would give me the warm fuzzies but I'm biased being an Idaho boy that likes shit that hardly ever breaks.

 

[KM375]

A decent video from Frank Proctor on the 1-4 , 1-6 on a 5.56, a one gun to do it all. probably what the Army was thinking with the 1-6 sig selection.

 

[koshkin]

I have always said if I could only grab one rifle it would be my AR with a 1-6x on it. Good from 0-700ish yards, light enough to carry with plenty of mags. I would miss the AI and custom bolt guns but that one has the most versatility. Guess this decision makes more sense than I thought at first. I'll be curious to see how the Sig tango holds up. Ilya, you said you tested the commercial version?

Personally the NF 1-8 would give me the warm fuzzies but I'm biased being an Idaho boy that likes shit that hardly ever breaks.

I've played with the commercial version (both Gens), but didn't do a full review.

I am not taking on new riflescope reviews right now. I've got a bunch of stuff I need to finish.

ILya

 

[Primus]

A decent video from Frank Proctor on the 1-4 , 1-6 on a 5.56, a one gun to do it all. probably what the Army was thinking with the 1-6 sig selection.

Army is 15 years late to the party. Dboys and and RRC were running shortdots before most even know they existed. My brother was used one in reccce/snipers in 2/75 back in like 04.

Big army, always gearing up for the last war they fought.

 

[LRShooter101]

Have you ever tried to clear a room with off set sights?
What happens when you have your sights offset on the right side of the weapon and you have to clear from the right side of the door way?
I'll tell you what happens. you end up in the middle of the threshold before you can bring your sights to bear.
Sure, you can add an RDS, another electronic to worry about and batteries to carry.
3 gunning, IPSC and such are games.
There is no real world application in what they do tactics wise.
Trying to slice the pie while running offset sights will get you dead.
For fucks sake, these are not sniper rifles, they are infantry carbines with magnified optics. They have to do several jobs.
Any time you make a specialty tool to do multiple jobs, it will do them generally well, but will not excel at any one thing.
You want to ID something or someone? Break out your fucking binoculars.
The Tango 6 is a LOW made optic, which nearly everyone agrees, makes very good optics.

Since you asked, yes I have! While I prefer to use an RDS piggyback, I can still run the BUIS if needed.

As far as the RDS battery issue goes, just one example that shuts that argument down:
https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/product2.php?id=RMR&mid=Dual-Illuminated
Of course, you can also run the LED on most new RDS for over a year now without changing a battery. The last battery I changed on an RMR went 15 months.

Of course, as pointed out above, if you also look at the Mk12 (and similar platforms), this whole concept has been around for over 15+ years.

Competitive shooting sports like 3 Gun are a game, never mistake them for anything else. But they are also a platform that pushes the performance level of the shooter and equipment, and it is responsible for a number of advances that have carried over to the battlefield. Interestingly someone posted a Frank Proctor video above. From his website: "In May 2007 I started competitive shooting and found out what I didn’t know about shooting." Having shot with Frank for many years, he will be the first to tell you that any form of quality competative shooting will increase your skillset and show you the pros & cons of the equipement that you are running.

Binos, unless you are carrying your own, the M22s & M24s are 7 power, so that is giving you 1x above what the scope can do. The M25s are 14x, but good luck finding a pair! I am not disagreeing with the concept, because I do carry my own higher power set. However, once I am on a rifle, I don’t want to be ping ponging back & forth to try and PID what I am looking at.

As far as tactics go, that is ultimately up to the people who execute them.
The recommendation to put a higher power magnified optic on a rifle was for the DMR, not everyone. That leaves plenty of regular M4 toaters to be first through the door. As a DMR, they should typically NOT be the first one through the door, they should be watching for and addressing threats from longer distances, aka Overwatch. I know very well firsthand what a typical 11B can and cannot do. And this training, equipment, and concept is not something that everyone will be able to utilize. Of course, that is also why not everyone is a DMR.

This is not about making Snipers. There is no need for all of the fieldcraft and other things that makes up the difference between a Sniper and DMR. This is strictly about increasing the shooting capability and lethality of a select few individuals through better equipment, training, and tactics.

The 1-6 is an improvement and move in the right direction. But it is also a “half step” to where things could ultimately end up going. If everyone is willing to settle for the 1-6, then that is where things will stay. If people are not willing to settle for it, and will keep pushing for more improvements, then in typical military fashion, something might happen years from now. Getting the 1-6 for DMRs was a victory, but the war is far from being over!

 

[Primus]

Showing pictures of dead squeels who died due to ignoring every facet of small unit tactical movements and recon is not a good way to prove a point. Not only did they kill themself, they also killed half their QRF and a fine crew of army aviation who should never had been there in the first place. The result of squeel piss poor planning and lack of basic soldiering that is drilled into the head of every leg 11b and 0311 cherry. The army then had to come in and save their lone survivor and pick up the bodies of the dead. To put icing on the cake, they brought a tough book full of highly classified Intel including US embassy blueprints on the op that was captured by the Taliban and ended up with ISS and the Iranians. Yea bro, not a good example.

No one is going to be the one or two man in a stack clearing buildings with that fucking musket mk12.

 

[LRShooter101]

Showing pictures of dead squeels who died due to ignoring every facet of small unit tactical movements and recon is not a good way to prove a point. Not only did they kill themself, they also killed half their QRF and a fine crew of army aviation who should never had been there in the first place. The result of squeel piss poor planning and lack of basic soldiering that is drilled into the head of every leg 11b and 0311 cherry. The army then had to come in and save their lone survivor and pick up the bodies of the dead. To put icing on the cake, they brought a tough book full of highly classified Intel including US embassy blueprints on the op that was captured by the Taliban and ended up with ISS and the Iranians. Yea bro, not a good example.

No one is going to be the one or two man in a stack clearing buildings with that fucking musket mk12.

I used that picture because it was a quick grab to reference that those rifles and optics have already been successfully used in other parts of the Military. Sorry, I was not trying to use it to start an Infantry tactics debate, or to disrespect men who died fighting for this country.

Funny that you can't be in a stack with that musket, because I was in a stack in the late 80s with a M16A1 and the early 90s with a M16A2 doing plenty of room clearing. (Amazing what you experience and learn over a 25+ year career) Yeah thats right, you can acutally do it WITHOUT one of those short sexy rifles if you practice it. It sucked, but because no one was screaming and fighting about the need for better equipment at that time (like I am trying to do), we were stuck with them and had no other choice until the M4 finally came along in the mid 90s. Of course the Marines were still kicking doors with an M16 well into the 2000s.

Better equipment and training equals more lethality, and less Brothers coming home in body bags. After many long hard years, I am on the sidelines now, so I will be glad to fight for those needed changes.

 

[Primus]

Anything is a dildo....er acceptable weapon platform if you are brave enough. ( Or don't care about casualties or mission accomplishment).