Short barrel, long life, factory ammo...is 308 still the King? If the "Gladius" were built today?

[dms416]

With a heavy focus here on PRS, nearly every one of those concepts does not seem to be a concern of that demographic...so I'm aware this is going against the grain.

With the "Caliber Matrix" idea coming up it got me thinking about my needs in a rifle/caliber. The geography of my area means I mostly shoot in a half-mile or less. The ability to maneuver and transport are important (folders and shorty's are the name of the game).

For guns that are:
A) sub 20" barrel length
B) 5k of barrel life or better
C) Decent factory ammo options (not 100% reload dependent)

Is 308 still the king of that castle? With the above considerations, I'm wondering if .224 Valk doesn't make a fair argument. Consolation goes with a .223/223AI but the fun/higher-BC stuff isn't factory and Ackley seems like a pain in the ass. The 6mm's are out for barrel longevity. I'm currently exploring 6.5mm in the 20-22" realm but am not expecting miracles on barrel life.

Is the 308 still the top dog in that niche?

 

[CJS-6.5]

.308 or .224 Valkyrie. Put them side by side and compare all pros and cons of both. Right now they pretty much balance out as long as hunting isn't in the cards. For one gun and be dun. The .308 is hard to beat.

 

[BurnOut]

IMO, 224 Valk is a valid option if you're just looking to make hits. .308 if you're looking to make hits that have some energy to them.

I have long said that the best thing about .308 is its flexibility; these days, it's rarely the BEST answer, but it's almost always a good one. In terms of off-the-shelf ammo options, I think that it's probably still the king. Given your criteria, I'd say that it'd be tough to beat.

 

[shooter65]

308 Jack of all Trades. Winner!

 

[OLD308]

To further muddy the water, 7mm 08. Decent factory ammo. Not completely dependent on reloading. But, for target or extreme shooting it is. Barrel life slightly less than 308 Win, but way better BC bullets. As my avatar suggest, I’m still a 308 do all person. 224 Valk is a no go for me due to limited hunting application of ethical kills. Shot placement, bullet selection, and distance dependent. So until the 7mm08 becomes as plentiful as the 308 win (never going to happen), as Waylon Jennings said “308 Win is still the king”. Or was it Bob Wills? Thanks for the great question.

 

[steve123]

Just mentioning other cartridges for consideration.

7-08???

Factory ammo but mostly for medium range hunting.

Good barrel life but less so than 308, 4000 or so??? Super high BC bullets carrying a lot of thwack and at a great arrival velocity. Much less affected by wind than 308. A .523BC for a 178 eldm 30 cal, compared to a .796BC for a 180 ELDM 7mm or, 689BC for 175 ELDX. Though that long 180 might not fit at mag length or go very fast because it intrudes on the powder a lot. Even still the 7mm's have great BC's for the weight.

7-08 AI, you can use the factory ammo still and get decent accuracy while fireforming. Reload it up for serious stuff, down with 140's for kids or practice.

6.5G??? I never bought one because it's like the ballistics of a 308 but without the power.

I really like my 223AI with 88's, good ballistics and slight recoil.

224V, sure if you don't need the energy of the 308 class of powder capacity.

 

[Sogan]

I think the .308 fits the bill for what you are after. You’ll hear anywhere from 5-12 for barrel life. I guess it matters how hard you are pushing them and what your acceptable accuracy standards are. Pretty sure Frank mentioned on the podcast that at Rifles Only they were using .308 up to 12k rounds in several of their barrels

 

[Supersubes]

What do you want to do with it? I got the portability par, but do you need to make hits only, or kill something?

5k seems to be a lot of people’s general figure for good barre life, but always seemed kinda arbitrary to me. Maybe it’s because most people don’t ever shoot out a barrel, or if they do, it takes them a decade. Once they do get there, having expended thousands of dollars on ammo, a replacement $500 barrel seems like peanuts, and not a worthy consideration for cartridge selection(ludicrous barrel burners excepted).

Mostly though, shooting a 6.5 next to a guy with a .308 just seems like cheating, and makes it an obvious decision in that class of cartridge.

 

[Dirty D]

Let me throw out the .223 Wylde, with the new 75gr Hornady's you get the same ballistics as the .308 with half the reloading cost and the .223 loves an 18-20" barrel, barrel love you long time.

 

[OLD308]

Please provide the link to $500 match grade finished barrel. This includes the chambering, threading, contour, install, and coating. Seriously, I want to run some experiments. I’ll reuse my muzzle devise, and install the barrel myself. I can’t find this option for less that $625 and that’s action specific, or one of the lug systems.

 

[Sogan]

Let me throw out the .223 Wylde, with the new 75gr Hornady's you get the same ballistics as the .308 with half the reloading cost and the .223 loves an 18-20" barrel, barrel love you long time.

I need to change up my potential reloading components for .223 then. Right now I reload .308 for about 53 cents a round. I ran the numbers and would reload .223 for about .30ish - That is using lapua brass for both.

 

[OLD308]

Let me throw out the .223 Wylde, with the new 75gr Hornady's you get the same ballistics as the .308 with half the reloading cost and the .223 loves an 18-20" barrel, barrel love you long time.

Please supply the comparison showing the “same ballistics”.

 

[Supersubes]

Please provide the link to $500 match grade finished barrel. This includes the chambering, threading, contour, install, and coating. Seriously, I want to run some experiments. I’ll reuse my muzzle devise, and install the barrel myself. I can’t find this option for less that $625 and that’s action specific, or one of the lug systems.

While my shop was down due to an out of state move, I bought a palma contour 6.5prc barrel, with a threaded muzzle for $470. This was from PVA.

Here’s the email invoice. Looks like it would have been $499 without the sale.

 

[PBWalsh]

Please provide the link to $500 match grade finished barrel. This includes the chambering, threading, contour, install, and coating. Seriously, I want to run some experiments. I’ll reuse my muzzle devise, and install the barrel myself. I can’t find this option for less that $625 and that’s action specific, or one of the lug systems.

PVA actually has some Savage/Remage prefits for that price. They also have other actions for about $600ish.

https://patriotvalleyarms.com/barrels/

BTW, huge fan of the Gladius type rifles, 308 for life.

 

[m6z]

What action are you building on?

 

[OLD308]

While my shop was down due to an out of state move, I bought a palma contour 6.5prc barrel, with a threaded muzzle for $470.

Here’s the email invoice. Looks like it would have been $499 without the sale.

View attachment 6980035

Thank you, looks like I need to spend some more time googling.

 

[Supersubes]

Please supply the comparison showing the “same ballistics”.

The Hornady 75 eld(and some others) has a BC that is very similar to many other common 308 match bullets, and is typically a bit faster than those factory .308 loads.

I shoot 80 smk’s out of a 20” Lilja at 2800 fps. Tracks pretty well with my .308 loads from way back. Pretty rare occasion when I slum it with a .308 these days. Lol

 

[PBWalsh]

They are similar (assumed velocities) except for energy.

175 ELDM @ 2650

75 ELDM @ 2850

 

[Dirty D]

Please supply the comparison showing the “same ballistics”.

The 175SMK (pretty well established 308 loading) has a G1 of 505 https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/2275/308-dia-175-gr-HPBT, while the Hornady 80gr ELDM has a G1 of 485, the 88gr has a G1 of 545 https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/#!/
I got 2550ish out of a 20" barreled 308 with 175SMK's and 42.5gr of Varget, I haven't shot the 80's or 88's yet but I got in the 2700's with my 20" 223 and factory 75gr ELD-m's.

 

[OLD308]

Outstanding, thank you. Yes energy is the obvious difference and if shooting anything other than paper it would play a role it what to pick. Question, in your calculation wind speed is 10 and target speed is 10. Does this ineffect place the peramiters at a 0 wind?

 

[PBWalsh]

@OLD308 Target speed should have to do with lead (see column on the right side).

@Dirty D : Comparing a SMK to an ELDM is not a fair comparison. ELDM to ELDM is an actual comparison. These two calibers have both to offer. Even if you did compare a 175 SMK to a 80/88 ELDM, remember the fact that 175 is an average weight for a 308 while 80/88 is on the hugher side for a .223. At least look at a respective cartridge to bullet weight ratio. Both calibers are excellent in their respective uses.

SMKs are good but older tech, lets compare a red delicious apple to a red delicious apple, not a honey crisp to a granny smith. ELDM/X is a new bullet, even newer than the AMAXs that already eclipsed the legacy SMKs.

 

[Dirty D]

@OLD308 Target speed should have to do with lead (see column on the right side).

@Dirty D : Comparing a SMK to an ELDM is not a fair comparison. ELDM to ELDM is an actual comparison. These two calibers have both to offer. Even if you did compare a 175 SMK to a 80/88 ELDM, remember the fact that 175 is an average weight for a 308 while 80/88 is on the hugher side for a .223. At least look at a respective cartridge to bullet weight ratio. Both calibers are excellent in their respective uses.

SMKs are good but older tech, lets compare a red delicious apple to a red delicious apple, not a honey crisp to a granny smith. ELDM/X is a new bullet, even newer than the AMAXs that already eclipsed the legacy SMKs.

I liked your analogy until I realized that it was making me look stupid, I don’t need any help thank you very much!

There are mo bettah in the 30 caliber dept, that tells you how long ago I drank the Creedmoor Coolaid.

 

[Bender]

6.5 CM and done. It should last 5k or so.

Factory.308 loads can last 10k or so.

 

[dms416]

For the record, I'm not building anything any time soon. It's more of asking for a fresh perspective since I've looked at this back in the days of the pre-Scout hide. Back then Frank made a comment in regards to pushing a better bullet is typically a better option even if its not at peak velocity

7mm-08 guys... I now jack shit about 7mm stuff.

I'm pushing:
185gr Jugg 308 loads nearly 2700 out of my 24" AIAX;
130gr VLD 6.5 CM loads in excess of 2900 out of a 24" barrel
I know that when I had my 16" SR25, 175 SMK at like 2435ish? was not horribly difficult to get out to 800-850 on an 2/3 IPSC as I would have expected. Far easier than with my 77SMK running 2750+fps...

Where does the 168gr VLD sit velocity wise in the 7-08?

 

[GrandpaDeadLegs]

You say King and it makes me think... What do the (paid, downrange, ranked) professionals get issued most times?

The .308! Because the damn government says so and it works fine.

But now on the podcast Frank mentioned if some new war was to kick off, we may see the pros switch to 6.5CM

So it depends on if you look forwards or backwards I guess...

 

[Crews]

I’ve never been to a competition, but I do a whole lot of riding around, walking around, and sitting around looking for animals to shoot at. My 6.5 Creedmoor with a 16.5” barrel works famously.

 

[Sogan]

You say King and it makes me think... What do the (paid, downrange, ranked) professionals get issued most times?

The .308! Because the damn government says so and it works fine.

But now on the podcast Frank mentioned if some new war was to kick off, we may see the pros switch to 6.5CM

So it depends on if you look forwards or backwards I guess...

I like the .308 a lot and it fits the bill that this guy is after. However, just because the military picked and uses something doesn’t mean much sometimes. Take the sig pistol contract for instance

 

[Supersubes]

You say King and it makes me think... What do the (paid, downrange, ranked) professionals get issued most times?

The .308! Because the damn government says so and it works fine.

But now on the podcast Frank mentioned if some new war was to kick off, we may see the pros switch to 6.5CM

So it depends on if you look forwards or backwards I guess...

Already happened...SOCOM chose the 6.5 creed.

 

[perttime]

I’ve never been to a competition, but I do a whole lot of riding around, walking around, and sitting around looking for animals to shoot at. My 6.5 Creedmoor with a 16.5” barrel works famously.

Obviously, the handy barrel length sacrifices some velocity, but not worse than other chamberings. (I went to look for some barrel length tests.) How is muzzle blast? Can you compare with other shorties?

 

[dms416]

I’ve never been to a competition, but I do a whole lot of riding around, walking around, and sitting around looking for animals to shoot at. My 6.5 Creedmoor with a 16.5” barrel works famously.

Can you give us some muzzle velocities and bullet weights for the CM in 16.5"?

 

[Crews]

Obviously, the handy barrel length sacrifices some velocity, but not worse than other chamberings. (I went to look for some barrel length tests.) How is muzzle blast? Can you compare with other shorties?

I have a TBAC Ultra 5” on the end, but the few times I have shot at the range without the can it hasn’t been any worse than anything else. That’s real subjective though.

Regarding MV loss: With the short barrel and factory ammo, I have set a personal max effective range of 600 yards on game. That's ~1,800fps with a little over 1,000ft/lb of energy. A full value 10mph wind hold is right at 1 mil. I just had to get real with myself on range.... if I'm honest with myself that's a REALLY long way compared to most of the shots I usually take in Texas. I'll take 600 yard capability in a short barreled rifle that's easier to use and cheap to practice with.

Below, you'll see some data I collected after judy chopping my 21" Kreiger barrel down to 16.5". This was done with factory Hornady box ammo. And if I remember correctly, I think I pick up about ~20-30fps with my can.

 

[CJS-6.5]

I have a TBAC Ultra 5” on the end, but the few times I have shot at the range without the can it hasn’t been any worse than anything else. That’s real subjective though.

Regarding MV loss: With the short barrel and factory ammo, I have set a personal max effective range of 600 yards on game. That's ~1,800fps with a little over 1,000ft/lb of energy. A full value 10mph wind hold is right at 1 mil. I just had to get real with myself on range.... if I'm honest with myself that's a REALLY long way compared to most of the shots I usually take in Texas. I'll take 600 yard capability in a short barreled rifle that's easier to use and cheap to practice with.

Below, you'll see some data I collected after judy chopping my 21" Kreiger barrel down to 16.5". This was done with factory Hornady box ammo. And if I remember correctly, I think I pick up about ~20-30fps with my can.

View attachment 6980483

That's not bad at all! Would make for a sweet whitetail woods gun.

 

[Sogan]

I have a TBAC Ultra 5” on the end, but the few times I have shot at the range without the can it hasn’t been any worse than anything else. That’s real subjective though.

Regarding MV loss: With the short barrel and factory ammo, I have set a personal max effective range of 600 yards on game. That's ~1,800fps with a little over 1,000ft/lb of energy. A full value 10mph wind hold is right at 1 mil. I just had to get real with myself on range.... if I'm honest with myself that's a REALLY long way compared to most of the shots I usually take in Texas. I'll take 600 yard capability in a short barreled rifle that's easier to use and cheap to practice with.

Below, you'll see some data I collected after judy chopping my 21" Kreiger barrel down to 16.5". This was done with factory Hornady box ammo. And if I remember correctly, I think I pick up about ~20-30fps with my can.

View attachment 6980483

600 yards is pretty far for a short hunting rifle. Id take that all day in that package