Rifle Scopes Mil or MOA for my first FFP scope?

[Diver160651]

Mils are easier than moa when ranging, as most people forget you have to deduct that 4.4%. However moa is easier to break down in the ret for new guys. IPHY range math is much easier, as target size in inchs divided by ret subtention x 100 = distance to target in yds. Moa is target size in inchs divided by ret subtention x 100 but then you have to deduct 4.4% to be correct. Mils is easier to teach most FNG's but, any of the three will work just fine. The rub comes when people do not understand how to self spot an must rely on other to do so, in that venue everyone needs to be on the same page. When your dealing with guys who know an can operate all three it's a none issue, but people will be people an bump chests.

Even in most UKD matches PLRFs are used. Sure not a bad skill to have, especially if your into “end of days” scenarios.

Again how relevant is mil ranging targets we are now shooting with our precision rifles? Truth be told, the targets are no longer human silhouette size at 300- 600 and 800m. Mil ranging a 8”/20cm circle at 800 isn’t going to accurate, never has been.

Try to mil range at 24” plate at 2400 yards in mirage. Anyone know what ends up happening?

Again if your a precision rifle guy don’t but a reticle system because you think you “need” it to range.

WE NEED A STICKY showing the MYTHS that cause new shooters interested in precision rifle, to think they need a MOA scope. The faulty logic of the need to mil range and need for inches on target, has kept the PX busy

 

[Racer88]

FYI most Benchrest guys who use MOA don’t even use subtensions - they use a duplex...

True, but their target rings usually roughly correspond with MOA at a given distance. So, they have a reference, eh?

NRA High-Power Mid-Range
600 yard target dimensions:
X ring ...................................6.00 inches
10 ring ................................12.00
9 ring ..................................18.00
8 ring ..................................24.00
7 ring ..................................36.00

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Even in most UKD matches PLRFs are used. Sure not a bad skill to have, especially if your into “end of days” scenarios.

Again how relevant is mil ranging targets we are now shooting with our precision rifles? Truth be told, the targets are no longer human silhouette size at 300- 600 and 800m. Mil ranging a 8”/20cm circle at 800 isn’t going to accurate, never has been.

Try to mil range at 24” plate at 2400 yards in mirage. Anyone know what ends up happening?

Most try to gear up for all sport shooting venues, with one set of tools/gear. Many don't take reality into account when picking gear, losing the ability or never having it to ret range means nothing to those who believe a LRF will always be working & there. However this site was started by those who know all to well what Murphy is capable of an the site has morphed away from that, good or bad.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

I have and use both.... It's irrelevant to me which I use mil or moa I used a ballistic calulator that is as easy to switch from moa to mil as a toggle switch... I also have my own kestrel so fuck your wind calls.

 

[Diver160651]

True, but their target rings usually roughly correspond with MOA at a given distance. So, they have a reference, eh?

NRA High-Power Mid-Range
600 yard target dimensions:
X ring ...................................6.00 inches
10 ring ................................12.00
9 ring ..................................18.00
8 ring ..................................24.00
7 ring ..................................36.00

Exactly - it is a different game altogether

 

[Diver160651]

Most try to gear up for all sport shooting venues, with one set of tools/gear. Many don't take reality into account when picking gear, losing the ability or never having it to ret range means nothing to those who believe a LRF will always be working & there. However this site was started by those who know all to well what Murphy is capable of an the site has morphed away from that, good or bad.

Yes, as mentioned I 100% think it is a good skill to have even with hunting.. another reason I hunt with an FFP..

If new shooters made a priority list on why they need a tactical scope of PR, the priorities would probable NOT line up with someone who has shot precision rifle for years...

 

[Diver160651]

I have and use both.... It's irrelevant to me which I use mil or moa I used a ballistic calulator that is as easy to switch from moa to mil as a toggle switch... I also have my own kestrel so fuck your wind calls.

I get it you are NOT a new shooter tying to learn.

-Your never going to look for help getting spun up in long range to help develop your skill set.
-Your never going to be in a squad at a PR Rifle match shooting at targets set into the foliage where you can not see your misses and get rattled, needing the mentoring and dope diagnosis by someone in your squad.
-Your never going to dial wrong on the stages and need the help of those around you..
-Your not going to get rattled, changing 5 positions with trying to acquire several targets and pressing off 10 rounds in 120 seconds..so no need make things as uncomplicated as possible.
-Your not going to get f'd by the wind, needing to pick up a few tips from those around you.

Speaking the same language is calming, effective and super helpful.. especially for a newer shooter.

You are self-sufficient and know it already, thus not needing a mentor. Nobody is asking experienced shooters to give up their MOA scope. But I am saying that giving a new shooter entering the precision rifle space advice to "choose either, because they are the same", is bad advice. They first should define the games they want to play and pick the best language/system for their future use.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Yes, as mentioned I 100% think it is a good skill to have even with hunting.. another reason I hunt with an FFP..

I only hunt with SFP no matter the leg count. I've used SFP for so long I know the holds an subtention at bottom or top power. That being said where I hunt your not shooting anything past 250 - 300yds as you can't see/find it. 3.5 X is more than enough for me to that range an if their even running I don't lose them. Even if I have to range a target on 3.5x the math is the same but divide final by 3 an your close enough for gov work. Where my SFP scopes shine is I have made ret doublers where the power ring stops to double the subtention's. This is vital for most of my shooting, as I now shoot about 50 subsonics for each highspeed. The gear out there is targeted to different shooting venues, but like you said most of the time we think every one shoots the same as we (those who reply) do. Everyones back round an experience comes into play to form a reply to a none pointed question.

 

[VP47PPC]

as long as the two parties (shooter and spotter) are talking the same language.

half

But I am saying that giving a new shooter entering the precision rifle space advice to "choose either, because they are the same", is bad advice. They first should define the games they want to play and pick the best language/system for their future use.

And thats all that needs to be said.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

Then mil or moa could be the proper answer... In my little Podunk need of the woods you would get your calls probably in moa because most of the shooters shoot multiple disciplines not just PRS... So the proper answer is what do they use in your Podunk ass neck of the woods... Or..... Be a little self sufficient and buy a kestrel or weather meter and use a ballistic app in which case it's irrelevant they both work and it's as simple as a toggle on an app.

 

[Odysseus1911]

I just have to say I don't think this thread ended up being a total shit show like so many thought it would. So much great insight shared. I've learned more from you guys in this one thread than from all the 50+ articles and videos I've looked at on the subject.

 

[beetroot]

M

It’s funny how mils got popular, because of the ability to correlate linearly, yet now if anyone even mentions linear correlation they’re a rube.

Mils are only popular with blowhards who think like to think they are smarter and better than the rest of us cause they are clever and learnt CentiMills and Meters.
For the rest of us MOA is no problems, I wish more scopes were IPHY but MOA is close enough under a mile.

Most folk forget that if you start using MILs you need to convert everything to metric, and there ain't no way is shit im gonna learn temperature in celcious and wind in meterseconds just so I look cool on the range with my MIL scope.

 

[beetroot]

I just have to say I don't think this thread ended up being a total shit show like so many thought it would. So much great insight shared. I've learned more from you guys in this one thread than from all the 50+ articles and videos I've looked at on the subject.

Glad we can help.

Any more bonehead questions, perhaps 308 vs 3006?

 

[Odysseus1911]

Any more bonehead questions, perhaps 308 vs 3006?

Well, I was gonna say everybody knows 7mm-08 is way better than 308

 

[Sutherlandsd]

308 fo' life naught 6 is fer fudds. Tell me about the Creed 'more'. Or let's discuss vegans vs CrossFit.

 

[Rthur]

R

 

[AIAW]

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Mils are only popular with blowhards who think like to think they are smarter and better than the rest of us cause they are clever and learnt CentiMills and Meters.

In reality mils are simpler for FNG's to learn all things considered. Remember the bulk of those scopes are used to hunt whats hunting you back, an in that venue, speed can be king as there are no different levels of dead, or out of the fight is out of the fight. People on square ranges only/ever what to think that having the same as, implies something, it does not. Just like having a tool or sports car does not imply a over the wall guy in the pit crew, or driver in the race. That said, most gear bought is about feel good, or trying to buy in, it does not work that way,...

 

[Racer88]

Most folk forget that if you start using MILs you need to convert everything to metric, and there ain't no way is shit im gonna learn temperature in celcious and wind in meterseconds just so I look cool on the range with my MIL scope.

This is patently false.

Even I know this as a relative newbie.

 

[Diver160651]

M

Mils are only popular with blowhards who think like to think they are smarter and better than the rest of us cause they are clever and learnt CentiMills and Meters.
For the rest of us MOA is no problems, I wish more scopes were IPHY but MOA is close enough under a mile.

Most folk forget that if you start using MILs you need to convert everything to metric, and there ain't no way is shit im gonna learn temperature in celcious and wind in meterseconds just so I look cool on the range with my MIL scope.

WE NEED A STICKY showing the MYTHS -- this one is up for post of the month...

 

[VP47PPC]

This is patently false.

I agree never have I come across anything saying MIL's related to metric.

M

Mils are only popular with blowhards who think like to think they are smarter and better than the rest of us cause they are clever and learnt CentiMills and Meters.
For the rest of us MOA is no problems, I wish more scopes were IPHY but MOA is close enough under a mile.

Most folk forget that if you start using MILs you need to convert everything to metric, and there ain't no way is shit im gonna learn temperature in celcious and wind in meterseconds just so I look cool on the range with my MIL scope.

Where does it say MIL's requires metric. MRAD or MIL's is a radial measure not a metric measure.

 

[Racer88]

I agree never have I come across anything saying MIL's related to metric.

Where does it say MIL's requires metric. MRAD or MIL's is a radial measure not a metric measure.

Yeah... I'm an MOA guy for now, but I understand MILs. They are two sides of the same coin.

MILs isn't metric, nor does it require the use of metric linear units.... or velocity units.... or temperature units. The same is true of MOA... it does not require the use of standard (English) units. The notion (that MIL requires the use of metric linear, temperature, and velocity units) is flatly preposterous as it has no factual basis whatsoever. To suggest it only reveals an abject lack of understanding of angular units and how they apply to ballistic solutions.

 

[supercorndogs]

M

Mils are only popular with blowhards who think like to think they are smarter and better than the rest of us cause they are clever and learnt CentiMills and Meters.
For the rest of us MOA is no problems, I wish more scopes were IPHY but MOA is close enough under a mile.

Most folk forget that if you start using MILs you need to convert everything to metric, and there ain't no way is shit im gonna learn temperature in Celsius and wind in meterseconds just so I look cool on the range with my MIL scope.

Fixed it for you.

This is some epic trolling.

 

[AIAW]

Damn, indeed it is.

 

[hlee]

I was going to post something useful, but beetroots last post, quoted above hits all of the salient points better that I could.

Troll level: Diety

 

[Deleted member 10043]

 

[cornhusker86]

Mil's for shooting, MOA for machining.

There.

Problem solved.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The fuck is still ranging with a reticle?

Buy a rangefinder, carry extra batteries, and if you’re scared of it failing, buy two rangefinders.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

View attachment 7027969

The fuck is still ranging with a reticle?

Many venues do not allow a LRF. Others allow them but you'll never range any of their targets with anything save military, as those shoot directors are some savvy SOB's. Who know most all the tricks

 

[Jscb1b]

Why no love for Russian mil's?

Only if you have a sub mil Mosin.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Only if you have a sub mil Mosin.

Yes I do,... until the second shot.

 

[GONE BAD]

I have found that it is way easier to shoot 5x5 one mil groups than 5x5 one moa groups. So now I only use mils! I can truly say that all my rifles are sub .5 mil ALL DAY LONG!?

 

[Bender]

I convert MOA to centimeters, then from there I estimate yards and guess that into feet, then there are roughly 3 feet to a meter and it’s about the same as a kilogram. People forget to divide the circumference of the front objective of your scope by the caliber of the gun. After this the length of the barrel is added to how much money you spent on hookers and blow last weekend, then you take the limo back to Vegas with the other dead prostitutes in the trunk and pray they don’t smell by the time you get to the airport, by the time you get home your daughter is pregnant by an awol Jarhead who has second thoughts about the military because he gets yelled at by a mean guy in a hat. So you are now pissed and hop on a bus that you have no idea where it’s going and the driver turns into a zombie while you are slapping your side looking for a pistol to shoot Kane West in his eye while Free Bird is blaring outside at the concert in North Korea. Somewhere, deep under ground in south west Nebraska, an airman turns his key to launch the ICBM that finally lands at your stupid sister-In-laws house destroying her 4th wedding to the new guy, Bruce, who just won $24,000 from a state lottery and after taxes, had $9,000 to retire on, and the whole world turns into a dystopian society like in some Saturday afternoon sci-fi movie on the USA network.

This is why we use Mils.

To avoid the above.

I don’t want to live in a dystopian world.

Thanks for your consideration,

Bender

 

[Spblademaker]

Prostitutes = alive
Hookers = not alive

How many times do we need to go over this...(he posts in yet another moa vs mils thread)

 

[cornhusker86]

I convert MOA to centimeters, then from there I estimate yards and guess that into feet, then there are roughly 3 feet to a meter and it’s about the same as a kilogram. People forget to divide the circumference of the front objective of your scope by the caliber of the gun. After this the length of the barrel is added to how much money you spent on hookers and blow last weekend, then you take the limo back to Vegas with the other dead prostitutes in the trunk and pray they don’t smell by the time you get to the airport, by the time you get home your daughter is pregnant by an awol Jarhead who has second thoughts about the military because they he gets yelled at by a mean guy in a hat. So you are now pissed and hop on a bus that you have no idea where it’s going and the driver turns into a zombie while you are slapping your side looking for a pistol to shoot Kane West in his eye while Free Bird is blaring outside at the concert in North Korea. Somewhere, deep under ground in south west Nebraska, an airman turns his key to launch the ICBM that finally lands at your stupid sister-In-laws house destroying her 4th wedding to the new guy, Bruce, who just won $24,000 from a state lottery and after taxes, had $9,000 to retire on, and the whole world turns into a dystopian society like in some Saturday afternoon sci-fi movie on the USA network.

This is why we use Mils.

To avoid the above.

I don’t want to live in a dystopian world.

Thanks for your consideration,

Bender

You forgot to carry the one.

 

[Prebanpaul]

Here is an easy answer, and very few people explain it this way. Mil based math is much easier to use. Therefore you should use mil based math with your mil based reticle and mil base adjustments in your scope.

 

[Bender]

Here is an easy answer, and very few people explain it this way. Mil based math is much easier to use. Therefore you should use mil based math with your mil based reticle and mil base adjustments in your scope.

It’s explained this way every time it comes up. Lol

 

[koshkin]

Only if you have a sub mil Mosin.

What's your beef with Mosins? I have several that are quite accurate: two 28/76, one 28-30, two M39s. These are accurate even by modern rifle standards.

ILya

 

[Diver160651]

What's your beef with Mosins? I have several that are quite accurate: two 28/76, one 28-30, two M39s. These are accurate even by modern rifle standards.

ILya

Ya, because you are a gas gun guy

 

[JT1178]

If I was you I would do Mil or Moa one of the two

My exact thoughts can’t go wrong with either one. You will more than likely get on target if you shoot enough ammo at it.

 

[koshkin]

Ya, because you are a gas gun guy

Huh? Since when?

I am not much of a shotgunner. Everything else is fair game.

ILya

 

[Jscb1b]

What's your beef with Mosins? I have several that are quite accurate: two 28/76, one 28-30, two M39s. These are accurate even by modern rifle standards.

ILya

No beef. Just yanking.