Rifle Scopes S&B toned down the MTC recently?

AIAW

AIAW

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    • Aug 16, 2001
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    #1
    So I received my 5-25x (LRR-MIL reticle) yesterday, brand new. It's been a little bit since I have ordered a new S&B. I think it was a 3-27x maybe 1 or 2 years ago. Anyhow, it feels like they really toned down the MTC function, in a good way. My others are rather stiff on the full MILs but this one is definitely way more subtle.

    Not sure if it's just this one I received or if they have all been taken down a few notches but it's a welcomed change if it's the latter!
     
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    #3
    GIXXER2000 said:
    I have 2 with the MTC and my 3x27 is a little bit stiffer then the 5x25.
    Click to expand...

    My other 5-25's feel identical to my 3-27, but this new 5-25 feels dramatically different. A good different. Dialing .1 or .2 on the stiffer MTC's is a PITA initially. Sort of got good at it over time with the right muscle on it.
     
    #5
    I’m looking to order the same scope. I’ve been a little apprehensive about the mtc after everything I’ve read, but at the same time my close up vision is blurry and I think the mtc’s might solve that problem if I know were I’m at on the turret by feel, your comment is encouraging.

    I’m really interested to hear your initial thoughts on the LRR reticle, I really like it but worry that the center may be to fine. Mind sharing your thoughts?
     
    #6
    Devildog said:
    I’m looking to order the same scope. I’ve been a little apprehensive about the mtc after everything I’ve read, but at the same time my close up vision is blurry and I think the mtc’s might solve that problem if I know were I’m at on the turret by feel, your comment is encouraging.

    I’m really interested to hear your initial thoughts on the LRR reticle, I really like it but worry that the center may be to fine. Mind sharing your thoughts?
    Click to expand...

    What’s your intended use for the LRR?
     
    #8
    longshot2000 said:
    Are you sure you got MTC ? For 2019, the new scopes come with low profile turrets, and look just like the MTC, but are not MTC. The MTC funtion is offered as an option, but is around $75 more.
    Click to expand...

    It's still go a heavier detent for the full MILs, but it's definitely less pronounced than my older models. For sure though, it's there at the full MIL indicators!
     
    #13
    Devildog said:
    I’m looking to order the same scope. I’ve been a little apprehensive about the mtc after everything I’ve read, but at the same time my close up vision is blurry and I think the mtc’s might solve that problem if I know were I’m at on the turret by feel, your comment is encouraging.

    I’m really interested to hear your initial thoughts on the LRR reticle, I really like it but worry that the center may be to fine. Mind sharing your thoughts?
    Click to expand...

    I can quickly dial the MTC's in the dark, so it is definitely helpful. The older models I would average .1 MIL off (landing on .2 or .8 depending on direction) when testing it with my eyes closed. This particular scope I received (if it's the new norm) I image would have no issues hitting the .1/.2 directly after full MIL.

    As far as the LRR reticle, I really need to get it out before I can make a true opinion on it. I'm liking the aim point (yes, it's very small - .02 MILs if I recall correctly) and .1 windage dashing.

    I don't see being able to precisely use it below 12x in any use/environment.
     
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    #14
    longshot2000 said:
    Are you sure you got MTC ? For 2019, the new scopes come with low profile turrets, and look just like the MTC, but are not MTC. The MTC funtion is offered as an option, but is around $75 more.
    Click to expand...

    The low profile turrets come standard for all 2019 PMIIs or they are another option that is offered?
     
    #15
    Devildog said:
    I’m looking to order the same scope. I’ve been a little apprehensive about the mtc after everything I’ve read, but at the same time my close up vision is blurry and I think the mtc’s might solve that problem if I know were I’m at on the turret by feel, your comment is encouraging.

    I’m really interested to hear your initial thoughts on the LRR reticle, I really like it but worry that the center may be to fine. Mind sharing your thoughts?
    Click to expand...
    I got one on the market...:)
     
    #17
    OP, I've had several Schmidt's in the past, all MTC and all had a pretty heavy full mil detent that caused me to over click or under click by .1 - .2 mils. Then I just received a 2019 Ultra Short 3-20 and the MTC was worlds better, so you might be onto something with 2019 scopes having much improved MTC. Unfortunately the 18 mil turrets were too mushy for my taste but I've been contemplating the regular PMII 3-20... I wonder if it comes with low profile turrets as well?

    bjay said:
    I got one on the market...:)
    Click to expand...
    Wait what? Are you selling your 5-25 with LRR? Didn't see that coming
     
    Last edited:
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    #18
    wjm308 said:
    OP, I've had several Schmidt's in the past, all MTC and all had a pretty heavy full mil detent that caused me to over click or under click by .1 - .2 mils. Then I just received a 2019 Ultra Short 3-20 and the MTC was worlds better, so you might be onto something with 2019 scopes having much improved MTC. Unfortunately the 18 mil turrets were too mushy for my taste but I've been contemplating the regular PMII 3-20... I wonder if it comes with low profile turrets as well?


    Wait what? Are you selling your 5-25 with LRR? Didn't see that coming
    Click to expand...
    Yup yup :)
     
    #20
    AIAW said:
    What did you not like about the LRR specifically? I believe @Dthomas3523 sold his as well a few months back too.

    It's easy to see where it fits a niche - definitely not as multi-purpose as say the P4F or MSR/MSR2 (speaking only to S&B reticle offerings).
    Click to expand...

    Mine was too hard for my eyes to pick up on dark backgrounds. I think you’re going to find that the common theme if someone doesn’t like the LRR.

    I can’t really figure out which niche it fits. It’s kinda a bastard reticle.

    That being said, I really like the design and idea. Just couldn’t find a full time use for it.
     
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    #21
    Dthomas3523 said:
    Mine was too hard for my eyes to pick up on dark backgrounds. I think you’re going to find that the common theme if someone doesn’t like the LRR.

    I can’t really figure out which niche it fits. It’s kinda a bastard reticle.

    That being said, I really like the design and idea. Just couldn’t find a full time use for it.
    Click to expand...

    Yeah, I could easily see losing that aim point in any type of vegetation or general dark background. The daylight illumination actually works well I've noticed... probably the only thing that really saves that reticle from being solely a desert/sand/snow environment reticle.

    Probably also one of the worst choices to pick for a PRS competition rig (in my opinion).
     
    #22
    AIAW said:
    What did you not like about the LRR specifically? I believe @Dthomas3523 sold his as well a few months back too.

    It's easy to see where it fits a niche - definitely not as multi-purpose as say the P4F or MSR/MSR2 (speaking only to S&B reticle offerings).
    Click to expand...
    If you want to shoot precisions aim small miss small this reticle is for u..or ELR where small center dot wont clutter your POA ..
    But i shoot rocks mostly..i juat wanna hit it first try..
     
    #23
    I had planned on it being for my vudoo .22.

    I shoot a lot of “marksman” matches with small dots, toothpicks, cards, matches, etc.

    I was even losing the dot on a paper target that had black dots about .035mil wide. I ended up using the illumination for some of them.

    I’ve found that for me personally, a .035/.036 dot and reticle is the perfect middle ground. I can still get very precise and also use it in PRS.

    .025 crosses into the too small category for me.
     
    #24
    Dthomas3523 said:
    I had planned on it being for my vudoo .22.

    I shoot a lot of “marksman” matches with small dots, toothpicks, cards, matches, etc.

    I was even losing the dot on a paper target that had black dots about .035mil wide. I ended up using the illumination for some of them.

    I’ve found that for me personally, a .035/.036 dot and reticle is the perfect middle ground. I can still get very precise and also use it in PRS.

    .025 crosses into the too small category for me.
    Click to expand...
    They should've keep msr2 .03 instead of .04 :(
     
    #25
    Take a look at the S&B 2019 catalogue online. You will see the new turret design. I’m not sure if it’s an option or standard?
     

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    #26
    I think I’ll likely have to wait until I have my new PMII in hand before jumping to conclusion. Hopefully shipping end of April/early May, though someone may confirm on the turrets before this.
     
    #27
    Sorry OP, but off topic into the reticle of S&B. Was wondering if anyone has used the new GRID reticle yet. And how it stacks up to the ones your are discussing in this thread.
    If you want you can delete and tell me to get my own damn thread started.
     
    #28
    DerrtyMac said:
    Sorry OP, but off topic into the reticle of S&B. Was wondering if anyone has used the new GRID reticle yet. And how it stacks up to the ones your are discussing in this thread.
    If you want you can delete and tell me to get my own damn thread started.
    Click to expand...

    Hehe, I don't mind at all. You're in the right section (y)

    I have only seen PDF's of that reticle, but it looks like a serious contender with the H59 in a way - the GR²ID being more competition-focused.

     
    Last edited:
    #29
    Yea I actually have no rifle at all so been looking around at what to possibly put together. The biggest thing I have read is “buy once cry once” so when looking around at reticles I could work with the new GRID from S&B really just jumped out at me. I may not understand everything about what it’s suppose to do and offer, but if it calls to me that must mean something, right?
     
    #30
    DerrtyMac said:
    Yea I actually have no rifle at all so been looking around at what to possibly put together. The biggest thing I have read is “buy once cry once” so when looking around at reticles I could work with the new GRID from S&B really just jumped out at me. I may not understand everything about what it’s suppose to do and offer, but if it calls to me that must mean something, right?
    Click to expand...

    If you’re going the buy once route, I’d do my best to get behind as many reticles as possible.

    Look for the once’s that grab your attention online first, but try them all.

    Sometimes it appeals to you on paper and not in person and other times it’s the opposite.
     
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    #31
    DerrtyMac said:
    Yea I actually have no rifle at all so been looking around at what to possibly put together. The biggest thing I have read is “buy once cry once” so when looking around at reticles I could work with the new GRID from S&B really just jumped out at me. I may not understand everything about what it’s suppose to do and offer, but if it calls to me that must mean something, right?
    Click to expand...

    Oh boy... You need a rifle. 'Tis the season to ink-up on something. If you are going down the "Buy Once, Cry Once" path with the entire build then this could get fun - and of course, expensive ;)

    The "used" market is relatively soft right now, so some very good deals to be had out there.
     
    #33
    AIAW said:
    Oh boy... You need a rifle. 'Tis the season to ink-up on something. If you are going down the "Buy Once, Cry Once" path with the entire build then this could get fun - and of course, expensive ;)

    The "used" market is relatively soft right now, so some very good deals to be had out there.
    Click to expand...

    Yea I’m seeing that I may have to start out crying more for the rifle. But would like to push the limit for my first scope. Something that can be used on multiple platforms to start with, PRS and F-class which is where I think I’m heading initially.
     
    #37
    Dthomas3523 said:
    That’s definitely toned down a ton. I like it.

    Also, did Schmidt go full retard on their pricing again?

    Every dealer seems to be through the roof on pricing at the moment.
    Click to expand...

    It is a huge improvement. I just hope it's a recurring "enhancement" and not a one-off! I think I've been able to hit a .1 or .2 maybe 1 out of 4 on the "other" MTC's. Can easily hit the .1, .2 and down to .9 and .8's with this.

    I just looked around and it appears that a few did go up a little. Maybe a supply and demand thing at the moment?
     
    #38
    AIAW said:
    It is a huge improvement. I just hope it's a recurring "enhancement" and not a one-off! I think I've been able to hit a .1 or .2 maybe 1 out of 4 on the "other" MTC's. Can easily hit the .1, .2 and down to .9 and .8's with this.

    I just looked around and it appears that a few did go up a little. Maybe a supply and demand thing at the moment?
    Click to expand...

    Hopefully. $3800 for a DT H59 is nuts. Hard to recommend it with zcomp and theta being in that realm.

    That was about where the MTC pricing was and with MTC/locking turrets, it made sense.

    For DT turrets......they can kick rocks.
     
    #39
    Dthomas3523 said:
    Hopefully. $3800 for a DT H59 is nuts. Hard to recommend it with zcomp and theta being in that realm.

    That was about where the MTC pricing was and with MTC/locking turrets, it made sense.

    For DT turrets......they can kick rocks.
    Click to expand...

    Yeah, I hear you there. Horus is going to get their $500! I think the GRID is going to hurt the S&B H59 sales also - S&B better try to offload those while they can (then again there are some die-hard Horus fans out there).

    I heard that some of these prices get set by S&B USA and some are set from S&B Germany. Just depends on which vendor has that relationship.
     
    #40
    AIAW said:
    A short video I recorded to demonstrate what I discussed in my original post.

    Click to expand...


    Thanks for making the video. Very interesting. Makes one wonder if disabling the MTC is even really necessary now if all new PMIIs are, in fact, confirmed to be coming with a subdued MTC feature. Although, there will always be those completely turned off to the MTC and dependent on the type of shooting they are doing. Also, completely agree with you on the GRID likely taking a chunk out of the H59 sales. Going to be hard to justify the HORUS premium, unless you are a diehard who just has to have it.
     
    #41
    boomslang said:
    Thanks for making the video. Very interesting. Makes one wonder if disabling the MTC is even really necessary now if all new PMIIs are, in fact, confirmed to be coming with a subdued MTC feature. Although, there will always be those completely turned off to the MTC and dependent on the type of shooting they are doing. Also, completely agree with you on the GRID likely taking a chunk out of the H59 sales. Going to be hard to justify the HORUS premium, unless you are a diehard who just has to have it.
    Click to expand...

    True. The stiff MTC is one of the frequently mentioned "weaknesses" of these style turrets. I have a few DT's versus the MTC and really like those, but I'm liking this particular MTC if it's the norm. Essentially it does away with that weakness entirely, at least on the one that I own.

    There is a procedure to remove the MTC entirely, and after looking at the procedure I'm sure I could modify it to only lighten it up instead of disable it. Will I though, most likely not. I'm all about modification for the better where applicable, not all about voiding the warranty on them though.

    The GRID sales will be interesting. I haven't seen much buzz about it honestly which is sort of strange. Perhaps the competition crowd have written S&B off as a contender because of the stiff MTC? I wouldn't blame them in that aspect, where every second counts.
     
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    #42
    AIAW said:
    True. The stiff MTC is one of the frequently mentioned "weaknesses" of these style turrets. I have a few DT's versus the MTC and really like those, but I'm liking this particular MTC if it's the norm. Essentially it does away with that weakness entirely, at least on the one that I own.

    There is a procedure to remove the MTC entirely, and after looking at the procedure I'm sure I could modify it to only lighten it up instead of disable it. Will I though, most likely not. I'm all about modification for the better where applicable, not all about voiding the warranty on them though.

    The GRID sales will be interesting. I haven't seen much buzz about it honestly which is sort of strange. Perhaps the competition crowd have written S&B off as a contender because of the stiff MTC? I wouldn't blame them in that aspect, where every second counts.
    Click to expand...

    I think Schmidt’s reputation for taking forever to get their reticles rolled out is likely why the buzz is low.

    Once they start hitting shelves regularly, I’d expect them to be popular.
     
    #44
    AIAW said:
    Very true. Are you thinking about picking up a GRID when they are released?
    Click to expand...

    I’m not a huge fan of grid reticles (h59, mil-xt, gr2id, etc) in general. But this one does look like the grid is pretty light, so I’m fairly interested.

    Problem I have now is if the current pricing is permanent. I’d just go with another zcomp or theta at that price point.

    I rarely hold unless it’s no dial or stupid time crunch. And when I do, I rarely hold under. But the concept of the reticle is there.

    I also feel like you should be holding 90% of stages if you have a grid, otherwise, why have such a complex reticle in the first place.

    Long story short: maybe ?
     
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    #45
    There was a price increase in April for all Schmidt scopes. That's probably why you are seeing higher prices. The 5-25 turrets have not changed to my knowledge from previous years. I'm looking at their dealer price list right now and the description of the turrets is the same as it was last year so I would not expect any changes.

    The do however offer the DT/LT/MTC turrets with MTC disabled from the factory.

    The GR2ID reticle looks way better than in person than on paper. I was not a fan at all on paper. Still not my cup of tea, but if you like the AMR reticle you'll love the GR2ID
     
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