If you were going to build an AR in 223 Wylde for 3 gun competition what components would you use?
- Thread starter onthex
- Start date
How much money ya got to spend?
MM
MM
Doesn't matter, you'll change all the parts out by next season.
$1,000 - 1,500
I would say at that price range. Look for a used rifle swap out the barrel and build it out as you go. Get a feel for the rifle you have and update the deficiencies you notice as you shoot.
FWIW, all my thoughts on the subject are sprinkled around in these two threads:
@Wulf I already have 8 AR15's in 223 that I have built for myself, several that I put together for about $1,000 that will shoot 3/4 MOA five shot groups at 100 yards. I like building my own stuff. I am starting to explore 3 gun, and I am trying to figure out what I might need to do different for a build specifically for that.
if you already have a bunch of AR's, including sub-mos, just bring one to a match and see how it works for you. of course you want reliability because if you're messing with your gun, you're wasting time, which is your score.
depending on how far out you will be shooting, 18-20" should be good to maximize velocity and give you a flatter round with less windage.
a variable scope that goes down to a true 1x (eg 1-4, 1-6, 1-8) will come in handy.
look at the jp ctr-02 to give you an idea of a perfect 3 gun AR.
depending on how far out you will be shooting, 18-20" should be good to maximize velocity and give you a flatter round with less windage.
a variable scope that goes down to a true 1x (eg 1-4, 1-6, 1-8) will come in handy.
look at the jp ctr-02 to give you an idea of a perfect 3 gun AR.
Lol more like change a bunch of parts in one week.
Final iteration for the week. Swapped out upper and handguard. I like it.
Attachments
To each their own but I try to dial out as much recoil as I can on my gaming sticks. I use a good muzzle brake, lightweight BCG, lightweight buffer, and an adjustable gas block.
As far as barrel length, I’m all about 16” and shorter now. Furniture is up to you.
Ain't that the truth.
I like those Aero handguards so much that its all I can do to resist building another rifle around one.
Years competing with a 20" Colt Government profile rifle.
1911 and. M1 Super 90
Those were some great times.
1911 and. M1 Super 90
Those were some great times.
Yeah I really like how slim they are.
I have one on a pistol and I love the feel of it.
I have -
Vltor upper
BCM KRM Alpha 15” hand guard
Criterion 16” barrel
Superlative Arms adj. GB
PRI brake
TTI light weight BCG
Aero Precision M4E1 lower
American gold trigger
BCM grip
BCM stock mod 0
BCM A5 buffer system
BCM lower parts kit
Trijicon accupoint 1-6
ADM mount
Vltor upper
BCM KRM Alpha 15” hand guard
Criterion 16” barrel
Superlative Arms adj. GB
PRI brake
TTI light weight BCG
Aero Precision M4E1 lower
American gold trigger
BCM grip
BCM stock mod 0
BCM A5 buffer system
BCM lower parts kit
Trijicon accupoint 1-6
ADM mount
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So this is what I am going with:
Wilson Combat 1:8 barrel 18"
BCM Upper
BCM KMR Alpha 15 Handguard
Midwest Industries gas block and tube
VG6 Epsilon 556 Brake
BCM Gunfighter Ambi Charging handle
Nickel Boron Carpenter 158 BCG
Magpul STR Stock
Magpul MOE+ grip
Magpul Angled Foregrip
Spike's Punisher Lower
Aero LPK
Aero Buffer Kit
CMC 2.5lb pull 3 Gun Match Trigger
Magpul BAD Lever
Magpul Ext Mag Release
Vortex Viper PST Gen II 1-6x24 scope
ADM 20 MOA mount
Thoughts, suggestions, criticisms?
Wilson Combat 1:8 barrel 18"
BCM Upper
BCM KMR Alpha 15 Handguard
Midwest Industries gas block and tube
VG6 Epsilon 556 Brake
BCM Gunfighter Ambi Charging handle
Nickel Boron Carpenter 158 BCG
Magpul STR Stock
Magpul MOE+ grip
Magpul Angled Foregrip
Spike's Punisher Lower
Aero LPK
Aero Buffer Kit
CMC 2.5lb pull 3 Gun Match Trigger
Magpul BAD Lever
Magpul Ext Mag Release
Vortex Viper PST Gen II 1-6x24 scope
ADM 20 MOA mount
Thoughts, suggestions, criticisms?
If thats the barrel I think it is, it's definitely on the porkier end of the scale. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not needed either.
The brake choice is marginal at best. It's a pretty non aggressive brake/FH wannabe hybrid, not the most high performance unit.
You'll eventually end up with a low mass carrier, so you might as well start there.
JP for buy once cry once. Brownells or AIM Surplus on a budget. Also kinda mandates an adjustable gas block, and a gutted buffer and even a reduced power buffer spring if you want to really tune things up.
Everything else looks great.
I was thinking about the Brownell's Low Mass BCG, but will it hold up?
As for the barrel, I happen to already have that barrel and it shoots great. I thought I might re-purpose it, but you are right - It is a bit heavy. My second choice was a BA Hanson profile 16" barrel. Lighter, and I have been wanting to try one out for a while. Any other suggestions under $300?
Brake - I have many muzzle devices, and my two faves are the VG6 Epsilon and the Precision Armament M4-72. However, I am open to any suggestion here as I am definitely not an expert.
Thanks for the feedback! I appreciate it greatly!
Having done the 18” thing I’m glad I’ve gone shorter and lighter. Rifle balance is key but having a lighter no frills rifle helps me move just a little quicker.
I'm with 021411 in that I much prefer a 16" or shorter barrel but it could be because I'm a smaller guy. Under $300 I would see if Craddock would do a 16" intermediate gas in a straight .750 contour, or find a deal on the Odin 16" intermediate like this: https://ar15discounts.com/products/...ile-stainless-steel-barrel-w-free-tunable-gb/
The included gas block really makes it a value.
I have both the Brownells and AIM bcg's in lower round count rifles and I'm impressed with both for the price, more so with the Brownells though.
The M4-72 is probably the best bang for your buck out there, although Precision Armament has a new superbrake thats supposed to beat it.
I agree with the above. 16" is the way to go with an adj GB. Also, check out Brian Enos forum on 3 gun rifles for more ideas.
I have an 18 inch Odin dmr on my 3 gun AR. If I did it over, I would have gone shorter. Its excellent out to the 500 yard stuff, but for 80% of the shit you shoot at a match, it's too much. I lose more time on the close stuff than I save hitting the long stuff in one shot. I would do a 16 inch next time, in a government profile or slightly heavier.
Also, something I was thinking about toying with, if you're shooting 3 gun with an AR, you're probably using good quality ammo, not steel wolf. So I was thinking about a dissipator type upper... 16 inch barrel with a rifle length gas tube. They shoot REALLY soft. But you have to use fairly powerful ammo in my experience.
Also, something I was thinking about toying with, if you're shooting 3 gun with an AR, you're probably using good quality ammo, not steel wolf. So I was thinking about a dissipator type upper... 16 inch barrel with a rifle length gas tube. They shoot REALLY soft. But you have to use fairly powerful ammo in my experience.
I'm no expert but for a match gun 16" and rifle gas may not be solid enough. Match gun and work rifle.
Craddock will almost certainly do what Tony is suggesting..........he just did a custom contour internediate gas barrel for me that he already had the program for & he's a great guy to deal with, besides.
I'm nowhere near Tony's caliber shooter, (great video's) but he's spot on about the muzzle breaks...............here's a link to a 2-part evaluation of breaks & FWIW, it seems to match up with the few I've used.
Break Tests
Also, I've used Rise Armament's 16" CB-160 (& the 18" version) barrel & they are a great barrel with good balance, a little below a Rock or similar, that you can usually find for well under $200 if you look hard & watch the sales.
Ditto for their LMOS BCG.
MM
The APA tunable brake looks good.
Based on the above I ordered a Brownwell's low mass BCG and another M4-72. Still researching barrels, but I am going 16" for sure. I will use the WC on something else in the future. Thanks for all the help! I will post when I get the build finished!
I'm currently using a 16" rifle gas barrel, and with very light loads. My reciprocating mass is low also, it might not work well with full mass components. I'm not convinced the juice is worth the squeeze though. Its almost imperceptibly softer than a 16" intermediate and there's no doubt that the operational window is narrower. I would say that once set up it's been flawless for me but at a match last weekend it suddenly went into undergassed single shot mode. Turning the gas up fixed it all but it cost me a couple stages. The weather was weird, it was blowing hard, sand was getting into everything, then temps dropped suddenly towards freezing and a snow/rain mix started that began freezing onto everything metal. I still can't help but wonder if an intermediate system would've had the additional PSI to push past all that without needing any adjustment...
@Ryridesmotox You are correct, I only shoot quality ammo - never Wolf, Tula or any of the cheap shit. I would rather spend a little more and get consistent SD's and reliability. With that said, I am probably not as recoil conscience as most. I am a big guy (6'3" and 220#), and I shoot a bunch of big guns that pound you. To me any AR 15 is super low recoil! 
With an M4-72 or similar break I am very comfortable with the recoil of a mid-length or carbine gas system. I think that the fact that @TonyTheTiger is running a rifle length validates your point, but I am more comfortable sticking with a mid-length for this gun with a Superlative Arms adjustable gas block that I can use to somewhat mitigate the recoil and keep it running cleaner.
With an M4-72 or similar break I am very comfortable with the recoil of a mid-length or carbine gas system. I think that the fact that @TonyTheTiger is running a rifle length validates your point, but I am more comfortable sticking with a mid-length for this gun with a Superlative Arms adjustable gas block that I can use to somewhat mitigate the recoil and keep it running cleaner.@Ryridesmotox With that said, I am probably not as recoil conscience as most. I am a big guy (6'3" and 220#), and I shoot a bunch of big guns that pound you. To me any AR 15 is super low recoil!
It's not really about "recoil", per se'; it's about minimizing barrel & sight movement & speed for the next shot...............every little bit or elimination of movement helps.
MM
Yea that's fair. It is kind of a razor's edge of reliability. Right now I have an 18 inch barrel with a rife length gas tube, a standard carrier and rifle buffer. And it recoils really soft, if barely at all. I also have a patriot defense brake on it. I just like to experiment with dumb shit. I do reload for my match ammo, so I can push it a bit harder to help run it if I need to. But I'll probably just shoot my 18 inch barrel out. I'm too cheap to replace it at this point. It shoots really well, and I dont do 3 gun professionally.
MontanaMan said it. The felt recoil against your shoulder isn't what we're trying to tame, its sight movement you want to eliminate. Being able to send two rounds in .13 seconds at a 30 yard paper target and knowing the second round hit because the gun just doesn't move is a beautiful thing. I know I've posted this video elsewhere on this site but I'll post it here just to illustrate how little movement a well tuned rifle has. A few times there's really good side angles where you can see that the muzzle doesn't rise and my shoulder doesn't even know I'm firing a rifle. It honestly makes a regular AR feel like shooting an SKS.@Ryridesmotox With that said, I am probably not as recoil conscience as most. I am a big guy (6'3" and 220#), and I shoot a bunch of big guns that pound you. To me any AR 15 is super low recoil!
Check out the Stretch 16 barrel, i’ve Used these for a couple years now. They are sub MOA, and shoot soft. There’s really no reason to use a 16” midlength gas barrel.
@TonyTheTiger and @MontanaMan I totally get what you are saying. Tony, that video was impressive! I am going to look at ways to minimize recoil as you both suggested.
@Push The Stretch is great, and I appreciate the feedback. It is a little out of my price range, but I will take a close look.
Another question. What grain bullet are most of you shooting for 3 gun, and what twist rate barrel? I typically shoot 55 grain ballistic tip through a 1:9 twist, but I am new to 3 gun.
How far are your local matches shooting? I’m just using plain Jane American Eagle 223. Shots are close.
I usually reload bulk 55 gr. Or shoot federal 55gr. My local match max range is around 450-500yards. So 55 is sufficient for my purposes.
Faxon Gunner Barrel, Aero upper and lower, Geissele handguard, Leopold Mark AR Mod 1 SPR, Velocity Trigger.
Those will be your big ticket items. That's what I did, and I love it.
For you all that reload, what’s a common 3 gun load for 55’s? Also @TonyTheTiger what trigger were you running in the vid?
Bulk 55gr for 99% of shots inside 200 yards. For spinners or longer shots I've used the Hornady 62gr BTHP around 2900ish fps, their 75gr BTHP and now the 77gr Nosler RDF's at 2650fps. Any reasonably accurate load will probably do though, I know guys that successfully use just one 55gr load from 1 yard to 500 yards.
I've used 1 in 7" and 8" twist in 5.56 and 223 Wylde chambers, none of those details really make a difference though.
I've been using 21gr of AA2200 for a couple years now, and see no reason to try anything else for a hoser load. So far it hasn't averaged worse than 1.5 moa across 5 different barrels and it's cheap and meters like water on the progressive.
All those clips were from 2018 so it was probably the Timney Calvin Elite for all of them, but I've used the CMC 3.5lb and Hiperfire 24C plenty also without either really holding me back.
Interesting — I’ve been running an 18” Faxon gunner barrel for three years and I’m ready to go to something a little heavier. I wouldn’t recommend it at this point. Love how fast the ultra light swings but it heats up so fast that a bunch of hosers followed by a couple 300+ yarders are difficult. I wouldn’t mind having another 6-8oz of steel in the barrel, especially if fluted for the extra rigidity. Got my eyes on the BA fluted SPR for a winter project...
Been running a VG6 gamma and I absolutely need to try a new brake. No recoil but too much sight “jiggle” compared to other rigs I’ve seen. I am going to stick with 18” rifle gas though because it’s tuned so light and is still so reliable, I don’t think the swing advantage of a 16 is worth all the other trade offs personally. I am also competitive but not a first-placer though, ha.
I've got a 14.5" Faxon Gunner on another rifle, in testing I was actually pleasantly surprised by groups after a mag dump. They definitely opened up a bit but still within 3 gun precision requirements. I also like how it swings and points. What I don't like is how bouncy and jittery it is when firing though. Even with a heavy and aggressive brake out front it's just too skittish to get fast doubles as close as I'd like to see.
Damn. Now I have to learn how to build a 3 Gun AR. That would be great for across the course, too.
Be careful. It'll make all your other rifles feel crude and uncivilized.
It’s easier than you think. Which is what’s so terrible about it ?
Bingo. My exact issue with my faxon gunner 3gun build. I didn’t even realize it until I shot a buddy’s JP late last year. Turns out no recoil is a lot different than no movement. I’ve got the first and want the second.
