Rifle Scopes Switching from S&B to Vortex?

T

The Godfather

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Dec 7, 2010
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#1
I currently have two Razor II’s and a AMG. I have a new 338 Lapua coming and was planning on mounting up a new S&B scope. However, now I’m thinking that having the same type of turrets and reticle between scopes might be advantageous.

Anyone else feel like this is helpful especially for a rank amateur?
 
#2
So Liberty is currently running their final AMG sale at a ridiculous price, that alone would sway me in it's favor and truthfully S&B doesn't offer a single reticle i care for. But generally yes i think along the same lines, it's primarily why i have the K525i on the match rifle and the k318i on the trainer. They don't make a 223 bolt face for a Tempest so i've gone the tikka route on the trainer and am in the processing of getting a swept knob for it.
 
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#5
generalzip said:
If you don't get a schmidt you'll always wonder what you're missing out on.
Click to expand...

Having used both extensively in matches I can answer that. Nothing. Actually getting better locking knobs, reticles and clickless zeroing. I went from 3 S&B 5-25s and others to Razor IIs and would never go back. 2C and now the 7C are better than any S&B reticle. And after being a little off when zeroing in the past it's nice to be able to get an exact zero. Also as the OP probably knows the knobs are much nicer to use on the Razor IIs. 10 mils per turn instead of the 14 mils per turn with lines tight together.

And before some wise ass drops in with the usual BS, it has nothing to do with sponsorship. :)
 
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#8
If you just WANT an S&B, then you'll regret not getting one.

From a functional standpoint and the deals you can get on a GenII or AMG, I see no purpose to go S&B.

S&B is a proven scope. It's safe to say that the Razor in the GenII or AMG flavor is proven too.

There is an allure to scopes made in foreign countries (Germany, Austria). Because exotic, yo.
 
#11
Rekkr870 said:
There is an allure to scopes made in foreign countries (Germany, Austria). Because exotic, yo.
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I kind of second this haha. Lately though it's becoming more apparent of how the optic is setup rather than the glass quality past a certain price. Despite liking to nit pick through glass and compare various optics. Though S&B is sought after still because for years they were the standard to which everyone was judged. Until they develop a decent reticle though i can't say i'll ever really be interested less there is just a phenomenal deal on one.
 
#12
5RWill said:
I kind of second this haha. Lately though it's becoming more apparent of how the optic is setup rather than the glass quality past a certain price. Despite liking to nit pick through glass and compare various optics. Though S&B is sought after still because for years they were the standard to which everyone was judged. Until they develop a decent reticle though i can't say i'll ever really be interested less there is just a phenomenal deal on one.
Click to expand...

Right? 10 years ago it was USO, NF, or S&B. Nowadays, not so much.

You get a lot for your money going with optics like the GenII, or AMG.

Most of the "exotic" scopes have an undesirable upcharge for a half decent reticle or locking turrets, etc. Next thing you know, you're $1k more in the hole because you wanted a reticle that was worth a shit and locking turrets.

Nevermind the fact that if the thing breaks, it takes 14 years to get it fixed and back on your intended rifle.

One man's opinion.
 
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#13
Rob01 said:
Having used both extensively in matches I can answer that. Nothing. Actually getting better locking knobs, reticles and clickless zeroing. I went from 3 S&B 5-25s and others to Razor IIs and would never go back. 2C and now the 7C are better than any S&B reticle. And after being a little off when zeroing in the past it's nice to be able to get an exact zero. Also as the OP probably knows the knobs are much nicer to use on the Razor IIs. 10 mils per turn instead of the 14 mils per turn with lines tight together.

And before some wise ass drops in with the usual BS, it has nothing to do with sponsorship. :)
Click to expand...

I've owned both as well and compared both side by side extensively. IMO the Schmidt is a better scope overall. The Gen 2 Razor is one of my favorite scopes and for the money offers the best value of any high end scope. But that said, it's not a Schmidt. It's not really a fair comparison to start with though just looking at the price difference. I like the ease of zeroing on the schmidt more, but I like the 10 mil turrets on the razor better. That said, once you get used to the Schmidt turrets they are pretty fast to work with. Glass goes to Schmidt. Anyone with a good set of eyeballs can see the difference. H2CMR is an awesome reticle and the EBR-7C is very good as well especially if you like a tree. Parallax is fairly forgiving on both and both have a good eyebox with Schmidt maybe being a hair better but not much at all.

To answer the OPs questions, are you gaining 50% more scope $2K vs 3K from a Razor to a Schmidt? Def not. If you're curious about trying out a Schmidt will you ultimately regret never trying on? Probably. My recommendation is to buy one used. Try it out. If you don't feel it's worth the extra money sell it and get 95% of your money back and buy a Razor.
 
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#14
Also the Vortex warranty is unreal. That alone would make me add $3-400 bucks to the price tag of a Schmidt for comparisons sake. They want $150 bucks minimum plus shipping to do anything to your scope basically.
 
#15
S&B just doesn't do anything for me. I'd buy a stable full of razor gen IIs before I'd buy an S&B, personally. Dated reticles were fine in 2005. You want to build a time machine and go back to the Bush administration, I'm all in on your S&B curiosity. These days? I don't get it.
 
#16
Rekkr870 said:
Right? 10 years ago it was USO, NF, or S&B. Nowadays, not so much.
Click to expand...

This graph from last years survey sure makes NF and S&B look pretty popular.

7074806
 
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#19
Well, in S&B's defense, they did introduce a new GR2ID reticle this year. I should have a 5-25x56 with GR2ID here to play with in the next week or so.

Given how good the competition is these days, I will not go for a scope with a reticle I do not find promising in some way regardless of how good of a deal it is.

ILya
 
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#20
Rekkr870 said:
Right? 10 years ago it was USO, NF, or S&B. Nowadays, not so much.

You get a lot for your money going with optics like the GenII, or AMG.

Most of the "exotic" scopes have an undesirable upcharge for a half decent reticle or locking turrets, etc. Next think you know, your $1k more in the hole because you wanted a reticle that was worth a shit and locking turrets.

Nevermind the fact that if the thing breaks, it takes 14 years to get it fixed and back on your intended rifle.

One man's opinion.
Click to expand...

Crazy how it's all taken off but i'm not one to complain it's great for us. The AMG to many is right there with the PMII and i went back and read Bill's review of his midweight scope review and he actually preferred the AMG to his K624i he had at the time. Which IIRC was proven to resolve as well as the PMII from Jeff himself(?) I'm honestly to the point that we're splitting hairs past 2000 (now that prices have come down) until you get to TT. I do think the new Kahles and Minox are up there as well though obviously the new Kahles comes with compromises and the ZP5 apparently has some reliability issues. ZCO is apparently nipping at the heels but even the guys who have both say it still doesn't best the TT. Features set of the ZCO will sell more for them than TT's quality of glass ever could though if i had to guess, which is ultimately what i'm starting to lean towards after having been chasing glass for three years now.

What's disappointing is USO IMHO, not to say the B-series are bad but man to me they just missed the ball on so many accounts after leaving the ERGO parallax. Even Leupold is higher on my radar now than USO.
 
#21
koshkin said:
Well, in S&B's defense, they did introduce a new GR2ID reticle this year. I should have a 5-25x56 with GR2ID here to play with in the next week or so.

Given how good the competition is these days, I will not go for a scope with a reticle I do not find promising in some way regardless of how good of a deal it is.

ILya
Click to expand...

I have the GRID reticle in hand. For folks that like the AMR they will like this one I think. Not my cup of tea but a good option for guys that like that style. It doesn’t seem as busy as the Horus stuff. I noticed the illumination doesn’t seem to line up exactly with the reticle though. Never seen that before. I’d like to see if yours does the same when you get it.
 
#22
5RWill said:
Crazy how it's all taken off but i'm not one to complain it's great for us. The AMG to many is right there with the PMII and i went back and read Bill's review of his midweight scope review and he actually preferred the AMG to his K624i he had at the time. Which IIRC was proven to resolve as well as the PMII from Jeff himself(?) I'm honestly to the point that we're splitting hairs past 2000 (now that prices have come down) until you get to TT. I do think the new Kahles and Minox are up there as well though obviously the new Kahles comes with compromises and the ZP5 apparently has some reliability issues. ZCO is apparently nipping at the heels but even the guys who have both say it still doesn't best the TT. Features set of the ZCO will sell more for them than TT's quality of glass ever could though if i had to guess, which is ultimately what i'm starting to lean towards after having been chasing glass for three years now.

What's disappointing is USO IMHO, not to say the B-series are bad but man to me they just missed the ball on so many accounts after leaving the ERGO parallax. Even Leupold is higher on my radar now than USO.
Click to expand...

There’s a 6 month backorder on tangents. They are selling just fine. Not taking anything away from ZCO, but TT is not struggling for business. They are struggling from it haha
 
#23
To clarify I already own the S&B. The budget doesn’t allow for moving all the scopes to S&B. I’m just thinking out loud that with my limited time I might want to stick with the same system to become proficient.
 
#24
If that is what you want to do and your happy with that I'd say do what you want . You can always switch back . or try other scope brands .
 
#25
generalzip said:
There’s a 6 month backorder on tangents. They are selling just fine. Not taking anything away from ZCO, but TT is not struggling for business. They are struggling from it haha
Click to expand...

I will be spending more time with ZCO, so I will form some more specific opinions shortly, but to be fair, ZCO has nothing to be ashamed of in the optical quality department. TT might still be better. I'll do a side-by-side and determine that, but ZCO is up there.

For my personal uses, I shoot TT 5-25x56 with Gen 3 XR and 3-15x50 with Gen 2 XR and I have no plans to switch from that just yet. ZCO might be the closest I have seen so far in terms of tempting me to switch, but time will tell. That 4-20x50 ZCO is right between my two Tangent Thetas in terms of configuration...

ILya
 
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#26
generalzip said:
There’s a 6 month backorder on tangents. They are selling just fine. Not taking anything away from ZCO, but TT is not struggling for business. They are struggling from it haha
Click to expand...

Oh yeah i don't imagine they're struggling, i'm just willing to bet there are more of the other optics out there just based on price and feature set alone. GEN3XR changes a lot of that because it's much more suitable to modern reticles, but in a years time i'd be willing to bet you'll see more of ZCO than you will TT at matches. JMO

The Godfather said:
To clarify I already own the S&B. The budget doesn’t allow for moving all the scopes to S&B. I’m just thinking out loud that with my limited time I might want to stick with the same system to become proficient.
Click to expand...

I personally like streamlining all my stuff if the budget allows. If i had my way i'd have 2-3 Tempest from 223 (if they made it) to 6.5 PRC all in PRS2s with the same trigger and optic on them so when i moved from one to another nothing changes. It's why i'll eventually put the Tikka in a PRS2 if manners will make it. The only exception to this has been my hunting rifle. I don't like swept bolt knobs particularly on a hunting rig and have tried to keep the weight moderate, hence the recent AMG purchase.
 
#28
I have a PM2 (the RAL8000 MTC version) and I have to say, I'm pretty dissapointed. It has the issue with internal liquid splatters on the reticle from recoil. Contacted S&B and they want me to send it to Germany to be fixed, which I guess is fair enough. Means I'll be without a scope though for a few months! For a $4500 scope (Australian), I'd expected more. The glass is pretty good, but overall, the Razor 2's I've seen are overall a better package.
 
#29
lte82 said:
Too thick for what tho? The center lines are .035 mil, just over half the diameter of a 6.5mm bullet hole at 100yd.
Click to expand...

I like shooting dots 100-500 yards. If I was just shooting steel it wouldn't matter but I shoot paper just as much and the H2CMR would completely obscure my targets. I really like center dot or open center reticles.
 
#30
Temper said:
I like shooting dots 100-500 yards. If I was just shooting steel it wouldn't matter but I shoot paper just as much and the H2CMR would completely obscure my targets. I really like center dot or open center reticles.
Click to expand...

Just my opinion and only trying to help, but If you’re using a scope to shoot 1-2” paper dots at 500 yards you’re using the wrong tool for the job. 20x is not enough. And you’d be better served with a second focal plane so you can keep the thin reticle at high mag. Take a look at the Schmidt 5-45 high power or the Nightforce 8-32.

You must have some rifle and ammo to be able to shoot targets that small that far away!!
 
#31
generalzip said:
Just my opinion and only trying to help, but If you’re using a scope to shoot 1-2” paper dots at 500 yards you’re using the wrong tool for the job. 20x is not enough. And you’d be better served with a second focal plane so you can keep the thin reticle at high mag. Take a look at the Schmidt 5-45 high power or the Nightforce 8-32.

You must have some rifle and ammo to be able to shoot targets that small that far away!!
Click to expand...

I sold my 3-20 long ago and I'll never get a SFP scope for my main rifle because I don't like doing mental gymnastics for wind holds when I'm not shooting paper. I'm limited in distance(500 yards unless I make the 1.5 hour drive to my buddy's private range) and don't get much wind at my local range so I make up for it by trying to shoot tiny targets. The 7-35 ATACR I had with the Mil-C worked pretty well for me, the dot at ~27x would perfectly cover 1" pasters at 500. I'll pick up another once I sort my ZP5 out...
 
#33
generalzip said:
I have the GRID reticle in hand. For folks that like the AMR they will like this one I think. Not my cup of tea but a good option for guys that like that style. It doesn’t seem as busy as the Horus stuff. I noticed the illumination doesn’t seem to line up exactly with the reticle though. Never seen that before. I’d like to see if yours does the same when you get it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that is different...How much does it deviate? I should, hopefully, have my PMII GRID in a week or two as well. I will have to check how the illumination pairs with the reticle and report back.
 
#34
Enough that I wouldn’t trust it. Granted this was just looking at a wall. But my other scopes seems to overlay. It almost looks like a projection of led on the reticle rather than actually lighting a portion of the etching.
 
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