AR15 shooting questions

[Fret]

Would the experienced/expert gas gun shooters mind giving me some tips on how to shoot off a bench using a bipod when trying to test the accuracy potential of the gun? Do you put forward pressure on the bipod and how much? Would a bipod with more fore and aft "slop" be better or worse? If you put your support hand on top of the hand guard would that be helpful to decrease muzzle rise? What's a good rear bag to use?

Would a gun rest work well with a gas gun? I have one that I use for my .22 rifles that don't have bipods on them. Would it be a waste of time to drag it to the range? The guy that makes these rests recommends lining the rests with sheets for clothes dryers to help a rifle slide. Would you want these guns to slide like a bolt gun?

Thanks!!

This is the rest I have:

 

[Precision Underground]

I started precision shooting on a gas gun and it was a journey. I think it was a good thing because I think it made me a much better shooter. For me the keys are...
Do not try to “load” the crap out of the bipod. Been there, done that. Loading the bipod means just taking any slack out, not pressing into it.

Once the slack is out I pull into a RELAXED shoulder with the strong side bicep only. Relaxed shoulder is absolutely key. If your shoulder is firm the rifle will bounce off of it. You want the recoil to pass THROUGH your shoulder and dissipate into your body rather than bouncing off of a rock hard shoulder. When it bounces off the shoulder the bullets will go all over.

Dry fire and then dry fire some more. Dry fire before every single group you shoot. It is amazing how quickly you can go back to slightly flinching when you pull the trigger. My trigger pull goes along with the bicep pulling into the shoulder. The last three fingers on the hand are pulling while the trigger finger is totally relaxed. That makes it easy to isolate just that finger. That’s what you are rehearsing when you are dry firing. Deliberately pull the trigger by only moving that one finger. Don’t try to let it surprise you. Clear your mind and deliberately pull the trigger.

Your goal is to watch the bullet hit the target where you intend. Give your subconscious that instruction and let it make that happen. Clear mind, on automatic. If you feel like the shot is a ramp up through a checklist until you finally decide to pull the trigger and you get more intense or excited as the shot get closer you are doing it wrong. Totally flatline, no thought, automatic, no reaction. Watch your subconscious make it happen, you don’t make it happen. As long as your shoulder is relaxed and you aren’t flinching, your subconscious can easily make it happen.

 

[Bigjake83]

+1 on what Precision underground said.

These are the steps that I use I'm going to type this and shorthand.

Align rifle with Target.
Align your body with the rifle.
Make sure your length of pull is correct.
Check for proper eye relief
Check your parallax.
Check to make sure your rifle is not canted.
Always use the same amount of pressure with your grip and don't change hand positions on your firing hand.
Slightly lean into the rifle loading the bipod.
Pull the rifle into your shoulder using your using three fingers.
Place the PAD of your trigger finger on the trigger shoe and in the same spot every time.
Don't hook the trigger.
Use your none firing hand on the squeeze bag to control point of aim.
Use proper trigger control holding the trigger to the rear until the rifle has come to complete rest after your shot breaks.
Get back on target
Reset Trigger

Rinse and repeat...

(you should feel completely comfortable and at rest, you should be able to close your eyes take a breath open your eyes again and still be perfectly on target with edge-to-edge clarity)

 

[garandman]

I would say that's an EXCELLENT rest (if yer looking to do benchrest shooting)

 

[garandman]

Would the experienced/expert gas gun shooters mind giving me some tips on how to shoot off a bench using a bipod when trying to test the accuracy potential of the gun? Do you put forward pressure on the bipod and how much? Would a bipod with more fore and aft "slop" be better or worse? If you put your support hand on top of the hand guard would that be helpful to decrease muzzle rise? What's a good rear bag to use?

I have my right hand on the trigger / grip, my left hand on the rear bag (sorta tucked under me) and let the rest do all the support work of the rifle.

Some ppl "pre-load" the bipod by leaning into it with their shoulder, but as above, I'd recommend against that. Just let gun "flaot" on the rest, f/r bags.

Too many External forces create complications

 

[Fret]

Thank you guys very much for all the great tips and detailed advice! I'm going to the range again tomorrow so I'll try and follow what you said. One thing I can't seem to do is to keep the target in the sight picture of the scope. after pulling the trigger. Is the gun moving too much and if so, what am I doing wrong?

When taking the slop out/slightly loading the bipod, the sight picture of the scope goes downward when I do this, so would I counter this with the rear bag? Co

Do you recommend switching to pikes on the bipod and getting rid of the rubber feet so the bipod won't slide around so much?e

I'll keep working with the bipod before messing with the benchrest.

 

[Precision Underground]

Thank you guys very much for all the great tips and detailed advice! I'm going to the range again tomorrow so I'll try and follow what you said. One thing I can't seem to do is to keep the target in the sight picture of the scope. after pulling the trigger. Is the gun moving too much and if so, what am I doing wrong?

When taking the slop out/slightly loading the bipod, the sight picture of the scope goes downward when I do this, so would I counter this with the rear bag? Co

Do you recommend switching to pikes on the bipod and getting rid of the rubber feet so the bipod won't slide around so much?e

I'll keep working with the bipod before messing with the benchrest.

Are you using a rear bag at all? If not that is definitely the first thing you need to do, get a good rear bag. I happen to know were you can get one lol.
PrecisionUndergroundRifleGear.com

If you are not using one everything you have done to this point is null because a rear bag will change it all. Get one, go follow what you have read here and from frank and then report back. If you are already using a rear bag and the gun is jumping around I would guess your shoulder is super stiff and the gun is bouncing off of it and jumping around. When your shoulder is relaxed it will absorb the recoil and allow the gun to move straight back rather than bouncing around.

 

[Fret]

I'm using a rear bag. Either one of these in the photo below. Are they OK?




What kind of pace is good for shooting 5 shot groups? Do you wait awhile to let the barrel cool after each group?

 

[garandman]

What kind of pace is good for shooting 5 shot groups? Do you wait awhile to let the barrel cool after each group?

Unlikely you'll be able to shoot fast enuf to heat the bbl too much.... IF your pace is dictated by sight alognment, breathing contol and the wind calming down so it doesn't affect your shot.

 

[Fret]

I went to the range this morning and tried to follow the advice you guys gave me. It seemed to help quite a bit and increased my consistency. I need to keep working on it since it's definitely not easy. Used a box of Hornady Black 75 gr BTHP. There's a couple of shots that I shouldn't have taken that opened my groups. Those didn't feel quite right but like an idiot, i pulled the trigger anyway instead of readjusting. LOL
Nothing great but was more consistent than before. The groups measured from about 5/8" to 1 inch c-c. I didn't have any of the usual 1.5-2 MOA groups that i usually get in the mix at 100 yards.

Thanks again for the great advice! I just need to keep working on it. Each bold square is 2"x2".

 

[Bigjake83]

I went to the range this morning and tried to follow the advice you guys gave me. It seemed to help quite a bit and increased my consistency. I need to keep working on it since it's definitely not easy. Used a box of Hornady Black 75 gr BTHP. There's a couple of shots that I shouldn't have taken that opened my groups. Those didn't feel quite right but like an idiot, i pulled the trigger anyway instead of readjusting. LOL
Nothing great but was more consistent than before. The groups measured from about 5/8" to 1 inch c-c. I didn't have any of the usual 1.5-2 MOA groups that i usually get in the mix at 100 yards.

Thanks again for the great advice! I just need to keep working on it. Each bold square is 2"x2".

Good job brother and happy memorial Day.

 

[Fret]

Good job brother and happy memorial Day.

Hope you have a great Memorial Day too and thank you again for your very helpful advice!

 

[Codiekfx400]

Can we get the details of your rifle?

 

[Fret]

Can we get the details of your rifle?

It's has a forged BCM upper and Stag Arms lower, Odin hand guard and BCG, and a White Oak Armament SDM 20" barrel. I installed a CMC single stage trigger but the thing wouldn't reset at the range so I ended up using the lower off my BCM AR with a Rise Armament 3.5 lb trigger. It's the one above in the photo.

I just took the hand guard and the gas block off to switch to an adjustable gas block to see what effect that has if any. I'm going to call CMC tomorrow to see if they will replace the defective trigger. Going to stick a Timney trigger in there for now.

I think this gun could shoot some really great groups with a good shooter working the trigger. That's definitely not me but I'm going to keep working on it and trying.

 

[Codiekfx400]

Looks good to me. White Oak makes some great barrels. I shoot my AR rifles off a Caldwell Matrix plastic rest. Seems to work good for informal target shooting and prairie dog shooting. Although 20 round magazine is maximum.

 

[Bigjake83]

It's has a forged BCM upper and Stag Arms lower, Odin hand guard and BCG, and a White Oak Armament SDM 20" barrel. I installed a CMC single stage trigger but the thing wouldn't reset at the range so I ended up using the lower off my BCM AR with a Rise Armament 3.5 lb trigger. It's the one above in the photo.

I just took the hand guard and the gas block off to switch to an adjustable gas block to see what effect that has if any. I'm going to call CMC tomorrow to see if they will replace the defective trigger. Going to stick a Timney trigger in there for now.

I think this gun could shoot some really great groups with a good shooter working the trigger. That's definitely not me but I'm going to keep working on it and trying.

That does look pretty solid brother, I probably would have went for a .875 gas block down to .850 muzzle.

But she looks good have you tried any black hills 77gr out of there yet?

 

[Fret]

That does look pretty solid brother, I probably would have went for a .875 gas block down to .850 muzzle.

But she looks good have you tried any black hills 77gr out of there yet?

If I did it again I would order it with the thicker muzzle and gas block. I just bought the off the shelf SDM WOA keeps in stock. Might give me an excuse to buy another barrel and build another upper. It's kind of like an addiction. LOL

Haven't had a chance to try the Black Hills ammo. I did try some Fiocchi 77gr SMKs which seemed to work similar to the Hornady Black 75gr. Is there a significant difference between Black Hills 77gr and other factory 77gr ammo like Fiocchi? I talked to the range official today and he was telling me to start reloading. I think I'm going to look into it. Decent factory ammo ends up costing a hell of a lot and it looks like reloading can save a lot of money in the long run even though there is an upfront cost for equipment. I plan on going to the range at least 4 times a week. I should look at Elfster's reloading videos. Got to start researching.

 

[Bigjake83]

If I did it again I would order it with the thicker muzzle and gas block. I just bought the off the shelf SDM WOA keeps in stock. Might give me an excuse to buy another barrel and build another upper. It's kind of like an addiction. LOL

Haven't had a chance to try the Black Hills ammo. I did try some Fiocchi 77gr SMKs which seemed to work similar to the Hornady Black 75gr. Is there a significant difference between Black Hills 77gr and other factory 77gr ammo like Fiocchi? I talked to the range official today and he was telling me to start reloading. I think I'm going to look into it. Decent factory ammo ends up costing a hell of a lot and it looks like reloading can save a lot of money in the long run even though there is an upfront cost for equipment. I plan on going to the range at least 4 times a week. I should look at Elfster's reloading videos. Got to start researching.

Oh yeah brother Black hills is top notch, Fiocchi is a cheaper alternative but I've never seen any respectable accuracy come from it. Any Bartlein or Krieger Barrel you can order from Compass Lake with the 1-7.7 Twist is guaranteed to shoot Black hills 77gr at 1/2 MOA or less.

That's CLE match chamber I swear was made Black hills 77. I can't even count how many barrels I've gotten from Frank over the years but every one of them will shoot that ammo perfectly.

On a sad note they discontinued the blue remanufactured box ammo so you have to pay a few more bucks per box and get the new Red Box stuff.

But Hornady 73 grain ELD match seems to shoot pretty damn well too, and it's cheap and everywhere in stock.

 

[Fret]

Thanks for more good info. I'll buy some Black Hills and the Hornady ELD next and give them a go. Probably will buy a CLE barrel next after I practice a bit more. Thanks again!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Fret;

Try this Stag Trigger in your Stag Lower.

Greg

 

[Fret]

Fret;

Try this Stag Trigger in your Stag Lower.

Greg

Thanks for the link. Is it similar to the RRA two stage which is a really nice trigger?

 

[Bigjake83]

Thanks for the link. Is it similar to the RRA two stage which is a really nice trigger?

Not to dump on your trigger options but IMO the RRA 2 Stage and the Stag both leave a lot to be desired and if you've ever shot a properly tuned Geissele trigger you know what I'm talking about. This is the option I would go with it's not quite Geissele but It's a hundred times better than the above options, and a few bucks cheaper.

LaRue Tactical MBT-2S Trigger

LaRue Tactical MBT-2S Trigger - LaRue Tactical

 

[Fret]

Not to dump on your trigger options but IMO the RRA 2 Stage and the Stag both leave a lot to be desired and if you've ever shot a properly tuned Geissele trigger you know what I'm talking about. This is the option I would go with it's not quite Geissele but It's a hundred times better than the above options, and a few bucks cheaper.

LaRue Tactical MBT-2S Trigger

LaRue Tactical MBT-2S Trigger - LaRue Tactical

That trigger looks like an incredible value. I'll go with that one when I do my next build with a Compass Lake barrel. That should be a good match. Going to have to buy another gun safe.

 

[Bigjake83]

That trigger looks like an incredible value. I'll go with that one when I do my next build with a Compass Lake barrel. That should be a good match. Going to have to buy another gun safe.

Keep in mind that any trigger can be tuned, I threw on a JP trigger spring kit and it dropped over a half pound and still with 100% reliability.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Not being familiar with any other trigger, I can't answer the question about the RRA.

This is, or is the latest iteration of, the trigger that came with my two Stag Model 6 Super Varminters.

It's the only trigger I've ever had on an AR lower, and I like it lots. Other triggers, can't say.

I have seven Uppers, and only the two Lowers. With only two AR shooters in the house, I'm doing OK so far.

I recognize that the Geissele is a better trigger, but it's also over twice as costly. For what I paid, I got enough.

Greg

 

[Fret]

Not being familiar with any other trigger, I can't answer the question about the RRA.

This is, or is the latest iteration of, the trigger that came with my two Stag Model 6 Super Varminters.

It's the only trigger I've ever had on an AR lower, and I like it lots. Other triggers, can't say.

I have seven Uppers, and only the two Lowers. With only two AR shooters in the house, I'm doing OK so far.

I recognize that the Geissele is a better trigger, but it's also over twice as costly. For what I paid, I got enough.

Greg

Thanks for the info about the Stag trigger. I just got into ARs at the end of last year and I have a lot to learn both about all the parts and how to shoot these guns. It sure is frustrating at times but a lot of fun though and it's sure helps to have a bunch of great people on this forum that are always around to give great advice.

 

[Precision Underground]

I went to the range this morning and tried to follow the advice you guys gave me. It seemed to help quite a bit and increased my consistency. I need to keep working on it since it's definitely not easy. Used a box of Hornady Black 75 gr BTHP. There's a couple of shots that I shouldn't have taken that opened my groups. Those didn't feel quite right but like an idiot, i pulled the trigger anyway instead of readjusting. LOL
Nothing great but was more consistent than before. The groups measured from about 5/8" to 1 inch c-c. I didn't have any of the usual 1.5-2 MOA groups that i usually get in the mix at 100 yards.

Thanks again for the great advice! I just need to keep working on it. Each bold square is 2"x2".

Did you dry fire before the first group and not the others? Serious question.

 

[hlee]

If you are shooting groups on paper, you might find that a somewhat larger aiming point- one that you can cross-section with your crosshair- can help you aim more precisely. If your aim point is completely obscured by your reticle, you don't know exactly where it is. However, if your aim point is a 1/2 x1/2 MOA diamond (for example) you can use your reticle to evenly section that diamond into 4 pieces, insuring you are aiming at the exact same spot from shot to shot. And, if you purposely dial your scope a few 1/10s off, you won't shoot out your aim point.

 

[Fret]

If you are shooting groups on paper, you might find that a somewhat larger aiming point- one that you can cross-section with your crosshair- can help you aim more precisely. If your aim point is completely obscured by your reticle, you don't know exactly where it is. However, if your aim point is a 1/2 x1/2 MOA diamond (for example) you can use your reticle to evenly section that diamond into 4 pieces, insuring you are aiming at the exact same spot from shot to shot. And, if you purposely dial your scope a few 1/10s off, you won't shoot out your aim point.

That's a good point about targets and shape of the aiming point. I don't have any diamond shaped targets but will look for some online and try them out. Thanks!

Did you dry fire before the first group and not the others? Serious question.

Good catch. I did practice dry firing to to try and make sure everything was set up ok after getting to the range but didn't between groups.

 

[Precision Underground]

That's a good point about targets and shape of the aiming point. I don't have any diamond shaped targets but will look for some online and try them out. Thanks!



Good catch. I did practice dry firing to to try and make sure everything was set up ok after getting to the range but didn't between groups.

Look at how much better the first group is. Dry fire between every group to remember what it feels like to break the trigger with zero reaction/movement.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

When I shoot groups, I offset my Point of Impact from my Point of Aim.

This avoids taking out the aiming point partway through shooting the group.

Greg

 

[USMC_JA]

Not to dump on your trigger options but IMO the RRA 2 Stage and the Stag both leave a lot to be desired and if you've ever shot a properly tuned Geissele trigger you know what I'm talking about. This is the option I would go with it's not quite Geissele but It's a hundred times better than the above options, and a few bucks cheaper.

LaRue Tactical MBT-2S Trigger

LaRue Tactical MBT-2S Trigger - LaRue Tactical

This.

WAY too many good trigger options to waste time and money on an RRA or Stag 2-stage.

For precision work, I think the Geissele HSNM is flat awesome sauce. It is simply wonderful. I will admit, however, that all my "serious" rifles have G triggers in them though except my old 6920...but I'll fix that soon with an SSA.

I do have an MBT waiting to go into a new build to see what the fuss is all about.

 

[Fret]

On my next lower build I think I'll give the Geissele trigger a try. There sure are a confusing lot of models to choose from.

 

[USMC_JA]

On my next lower build I think I'll give the Geissele trigger a try. There sure are a confusing lot of models to choose from.

My advice when it comes to G triggers: first figure out what the intended role of the rifle will be. Second, determine your preferred trigger style (single vs double stage). Third, do you like flat bow triggers or curved? Fourth, wait for a holiday sale (esp Black Friday). G offers 20-25% discounts during all holidays. If you put some structure to it, you choices will be whittled down pretty quickly.

Second piece of unsolicited advice: be careful with G triggers. The damn things have a way of taking over your gun safe.

 

[Fret]

Thanks guys for all the great helpful advice. Went to the range again mainly to shoot my new Odin Works upper. Tried several different boxes of ammo but I don't think I had the right ammo for it since the groups were pretty bad. LOL

Took the upper with the WOA barrel with me to shoot while the Odin barrel cooled. I did a little better than the last time with 5 shot groups at 100 yards ranging from around .47" - .78" Center to center. I need to order some Black Hills 77 grain like Big Jake recommended to test and keep working on my shooting. I need to practice dry firing more since I can tell that I'm pulling some of the shots. Shooting sure is challenging.

Thanks again!

 

[Warlok813]

It's has a forged BCM upper and Stag Arms lower, Odin hand guard and BCG, and a White Oak Armament SDM 20" barrel. I installed a CMC single stage trigger but the thing wouldn't reset at the range so I ended up using the lower off my BCM AR with a Rise Armament 3.5 lb trigger. It's the one above in the photo.

I just took the hand guard and the gas block off to switch to an adjustable gas block to see what effect that has if any. I'm going to call CMC tomorrow to see if they will replace the defective trigger. Going to stick a Timney trigger in there for now.

I think this gun could shoot some really great groups with a good shooter working the trigger. That's definitely not me but I'm going to keep working on it and trying.

I have that same barrel. Very nice. Just tested the build for function, niw i have to finish it and get it out for some groups