Night Vision Good options for multi-role thermal sights?

[MT-Hillshooter]

Hello, I'm not especially familiar with thermal optics, so i was wondering what advice some other guru's on the subject had to say.

I'm curious what's out there, to serve as a 1-do-it-all, affordable (as far as thermal stuff is concerned anyway) multi-purpose thermal sight.
Perhaps to be used as a
clip-on day-night /monocular/camera/scope?

Does anything like this exist in the $3,000 range of my budget? . . . .
Or more like $8,000+?

Thanks for ideas and input.

 

[Geeb]

Pulsar is about the best in the 3-5k market. However, that is a dedicated scope, not a clip-on (an actual clip-on, meant to run with a day scope, will be more like 10k)

 

[wigwamitus]

The pulsar thermal clipon option is:

https://www.pulsar-nv.com/glo/products/33/thermal-imaging-scopes/core-fxq-scope

However, the objective mounting option is not recommended. Instead this rail mount should be used.

https://www.ultimatenightvision.com/Pulsar-Thermal-QD-Mount-p/dloc-ptm.htm

It may be advisable to replace your day scope rings to obtain a closer match to optical center to the clipon optical center, this will reduce POI shift and minimize required adjustments.

==
So there is an under $5k clipon solution. But it only supports up to 5x magnification on the day scope and is a 384x288 resolution device.

So for most night hunters, it is recommended to get a second rifle and use a dedicated thermal scope on the rifle, this places the magnification on the front of the thermal so you are not "zooming in on the TV screen" on the rear end of the thermal clipon.

==
The "real" thermal clipons ... military grade, that support 8x+ of magnification on the day scope are all over $10k MSRP, some significantly over $10k.

 

[Geeb]

Wig,
If I'm not mistaken the pulsar clip-on is the one that has been giving people fits about holding a zero, or was that a different manuf.?

 

[wigwamitus]

I have not heard specific reports about the FXQ50 not holding "zero".

Some folks have reported pulsar dedicated scopes having POI shift issues. Some of that was resolved with software changes. Some reports still persist with the theory that ambient temperature changes cause POI shifts, for the dedicated scopes. Very few people have run the FXQ50 however. The main issue I'm aware of with the FXQ50 is the provided objective mount is inoperable as the clipon rotates on the mount. So replacing it with the rail mount is definitely indicated.
Beyond that, the issues with the FXQ50 are that it is limited to 5x and below (hence can't really take advantage on day scope reticle hash marks for holding) and is limited by 384x288 resolution (with standard display on backend).

Clipons don't "hold" zero like dedicated thermal scopes. With some thermal clipons (like UTC-x) there are no adjustments. With those thermal clipons that have adjustments, you are lining up the TV screen with the day scope center. Which is a different process than moving the reticle around. So, again, I have not heard reports of the FXQs not holding zero. Maybe there have been 100 of them, but I haven't heard them !

 

[MT-Hillshooter]

The pulsar thermal clipon option is:

https://www.pulsar-nv.com/glo/products/33/thermal-imaging-scopes/core-fxq-scope

However, the objective mounting option is not recommended. Instead this rail mount should be used.

https://www.ultimatenightvision.com/Pulsar-Thermal-QD-Mount-p/dloc-ptm.htm

It may be advisable to replace your day scope rings to obtain a closer match to optical center to the clipon optical center, this will reduce POI shift and minimize required adjustments.

==
So there is an under $5k clipon solution. But it only supports up to 5x magnification on the day scope and is a 384x288 resolution device.

So for most night hunters, it is recommended to get a second rifle and use a dedicated thermal scope on the rifle, this places the magnification on the front of the thermal so you are not "zooming in on the TV screen" on the rear end of the thermal clipon.

==
The "real" thermal clipons ... military grade, that support 8x+ of magnification on the day scope are all over $10k MSRP, some significantly over $10k.

Wow! Gotcha, very good. Thanks for the input. Seems like a "dedicated" rifle and setup might be the best route huh?

 

[MT-Hillshooter]

I have not heard specific reports about the FXQ50 not holding "zero".

Some folks have reported pulsar dedicated scopes having POI shift issues. Some of that was resolved with software changes. Some reports still persist with the theory that ambient temperature changes cause POI shifts, for the dedicated scopes. Very few people have run the FXQ50 however. The main issue I'm aware of with the FXQ50 is the provided objective mount is inoperable as the clipon rotates on the mount. So replacing it with the rail mount is definitely indicated.
Beyond that, the issues with the FXQ50 are that it is limited to 5x and below (hence can't really take advantage on day scope reticle hash marks for holding) and is limited by 384x288 resolution (with standard display on backend).

Clipons don't "hold" zero like dedicated thermal scopes. With some thermal clipons (like UTC-x) there are no adjustments. With those thermal clipons that have adjustments, you are lining up the TV screen with the day scope center. Which is a different process than moving the reticle around. So, again, I have not heard reports of the FXQs not holding zero. Maybe there have been 100 of them, but I haven't heard them !

Cool, thanks for the thoughts friend!

 

[DownRangeThermal]

The better mount for the fxq50 in my opinion is the bobro pulsar qd mount. It allows the core to sit at about 1.6 inches above rail instead of 1.80 the dloc mount does. This allows most nv height scope rings to center you up on the optic. I use the core fxq50 a bunch this way so happy to answer questions.

 

[MT-Hillshooter]

The better mount for the fxq50 in my opinion is the bobro pulsar qd mount. It allows the core to sit at about 1.6 inches above rail instead of 1.80 the dloc mount does. This allows most nv height scope rings to center you up on the optic. I use the core fxq50 a bunch this way so happy to answer questions.

Thanks bud! Do you like the pulsar fxq50 then, as a versatile tool/ do you use it as a monocular too? Does it mount straight to the scope as well, or is it better on a qd rail mount? What magnifications do you use with it on the 'day' scope?

 

[Strykervet]

A member is supposed to be sending me a FliR T50 to try out he's got for sale. I need a collimated clip on that can handle high zoom optics on high recoil weapons (up to .50BMG). The T50 ain't it, but it's designed to be used with an ACOG and for $3xxx, it may be okay for use as a stop gap and a dedicated ACOG optic for smaller rifles. We'll see. It'll be a plus to get NV/thermal on a small rifle or SBR and not have a half a ton of PVS 30 up front (which IMO has been one of the great deals of this decade --you can get 'em rebuilt from KAC for $4xxx). So it's got it's uses.

It has a 2x and 4x digital zoom feature but still goes in front of the ACOG. I understand it has problems with many other optics, particularly those over 6x, +MOA mounts, those not right at 1.53" center or off axis mounting in general. It's like the one the fellow above was mentioning with the lower resolution and digital zoom, but the FLIR T50 isn't exactly as cheap as what he's got in mind either. New they go for $10k still.

So the one I really NEED would be far more costly than I can spare now.

I was talking to Trijicon, and I don't know how much it costs, but they make a clip on they claim would work for 90% of what I need it to do. SnipeIR? I forget, it's on their site, they only make four (they no longer carry the T50). The prices on it aren't too bad either, not the usual $27k I've been staring down for a few years, hoping the prices would drop (they are, just not fast enough for me!).

If I end up not going with the T50 for whatever reason, I can put you in touch with the fellow and I'll tell you what I thought of it and why I didn't take it. But if it can make an ACOG go thermal at 600m without anything to bitch about I think it'll be quite useful.

FWIW, he said he's seen 'em for for $4k on Ebay or barfcom. I wouldn't buy ANY high end optic or device on Ebay UNLESS it's covered by the factory warranty, so caveat emptor baby. Research I did shows they still go for $10k new.

 

[DownRangeThermal]

Thanks bud! Do you like the pulsar fxq50 then, as a versatile tool/ do you use it as a monocular too? Does it mount straight to the scope as well, or is it better on a qd rail mount? What magnifications do you use with it on the 'day' scope?

Up to about 6x or so is very usable. It's not meant for rail mount but works that way as long as you calibrate screen to a certain gun/optic and use it exclusively on that rifle. As a handheld it works great if you dont mind a green screen.

As for repeatability

It goes on my guest 6.8 AR.....taken on and off 50+ times and it is always dead nuts. Matter of fact last time out we took a firefighter and he removed a coyotes face at 250.

 

[CBDR]

I went down this same trail when I discovered the real excitement begins after dark. The do EVERYTHING RIFLE for me was a journey. My process of mounting and disconnecting the thermal was pretty easy BUT the POI kept shifting.
Same ammo, same markings on my pic rail. I came to this conclusion. If its a high end day optic or a high end thermal the following happened to me. You move that stuff around on and off your rail she will give you mixed results. I remember reading all about this a few years ago. Many heated debates between the subject matter experts on REPEAT-ABILITY with quick disconnect mounts. I spent more than I care to admit on a expensive GDI mount. Great mount, bank vault solid, but move her around & I get mixed results. Keep her stationary and no issues (reduce variation). Right tool for the right job. Put together a stand alone rig. Keep it simple.

 

[Strykervet]

Hey, so I went to Trijicon and they have a few SnipeIR models... The basic one, which is still better than the T50, is $6000 and they go up to $10k, but all have higher resolution, etc, and they have comparison pictures that show the difference. They have an 8x optical zoom and a 2.5x digital zoom IIRC (I don't know if that's for stand alone or what) and it doesn't say what variable scope it works with but it does say it works with many optics, so I'm guessing it's collimated and not dedicated to an ACOG or whatever.

There's some guys on here who have reviewed 'em and who own 'em, Wigwam may be a guy to contact about. He tries 'em all out. He can tell you about budget models, but it's a buy once, cry once thing and you'd be better off to get one from a decent mfg. and not a budget one. They're budget for a reason.

Good luck.

 

[PlinkIt]

FXQ50 works pretty well I think...

I had some serious heart burn when I first got the unit set up on the objective mount because I couldn't hold zero so well even leaving the unit on the scope. Pushing the buttons on the unit would knock the zero off. I was coming from a T60 thermal clip on, and was not happy about the moving issues.

I switched to a dloc mount and fixed that issue. The exact line up of height doesn't seem to be necessary either. You can zero to most any AR height rings / mount.

I will second the 5ish max magnification in clip on mode though.

I actually use this unit currently as my #1 scanning tool. Mainly because what I learned was that scanning with something mounted to a rifle is a terrible idea. That gets old really really fast...

If you have a set budget, getting a more budget scanner and a scope is a much better way to function than spending everything on a single unit. I'm running a pulsar XP50 and flir PTS 536 as my dedicated scopes and the fxq50 as my scanner. As the detection & identification range of all these units are similar they work pretty well together.

I tried the Flir breach as a spotter for a bit, and was not impressed... Open field hog stalking might be served well will the breach but anything else I think it's a joke.

I am currently considering spending ALLOT more of my budget in a dedicated scanner like the patrol m300w and keeping the dedicated rifles set up. This makes more sense to me at this point to spend my money on the scanner as that will be 95% of where my time is spent. Then just flip the dedicated thermal scope on to shoot.

But.. after all that... If you are really looking for a multi functional item... The FXQ50 really does manage double duty as a scanner or clip on rather well for the price.

 

[MT-Hillshooter]

FXQ50 works pretty well I think...

I had some serious heart burn when I first got the unit set up on the objective mount because I couldn't hold zero so well even leaving the unit on the scope. Pushing the buttons on the unit would knock the zero off. I was coming from a T60 thermal clip on, and was not happy about the moving issues.

I switched to a dloc mount and fixed that issue. The exact line up of height doesn't seem to be necessary either. You can zero to most any AR height rings / mount.

I will second the 5ish max magnification in clip on mode though.

I actually use this unit currently as my #1 scanning tool. Mainly because what I learned was that scanning with something mounted to a rifle is a terrible idea. That gets old really really fast...

If you have a set budget, getting a more budget scanner and a scope is a much better way to function than spending everything on a single unit. I'm running a pulsar XP50 and flir PTS 536 as my dedicated scopes and the fxq50 as my scanner. As the detection & identification range of all these units are similar they work pretty well together.

I tried the Flir breach as a spotter for a bit, and was not impressed... Open field hog stalking might be served well will the breach but anything else I think it's a joke.

I am currently considering spending ALLOT more of my budget in a dedicated scanner like the patrol m300w and keeping the dedicated rifles set up. This makes more sense to me at this point to spend my money on the scanner as that will be 95% of where my time is spent. Then just flip the dedicated thermal scope on to shoot.

But.. after all that... If you are really looking for a multi functional item... The FXQ50 really does manage double duty as a scanner or clip on rather well for the price.

Excellent insight bud!

Thanks for the thoughts. I'm definitely giving the dedicated scanner a thought. And for that matter, once a target is spotted, ranged, and identified, it's almost viable to use a cheaper gen 2/3 NV device on the rifle to follow-up & shoot, until a dedicated thermal scope is back in the budget, for the rifle.

 

[PlinkIt]

If you already have the NV units maybe...

I'm no expert by any means, but personally I can track moving targets FAR FAR better with a thermal scope than a NV unit... Not to mention take something like a bobcat stalking in grass, and I can't hardly make the thing out with NV even when I know where it's at. Thermal is much easier for me at least.

Now I do still currently enjoy having a pvs14 with an IR laser onboard for some closer in "snap shooting"

But if I was considering spending 8k or so on a single Trijicon unit... I'd split and spend half and half on a scope and a scanner.