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Federal Match primer duds?

garandman said:
Update:

Went back to the range and refired the 3 duds.

Nothing.

Switched over to CCI bench rest and went 25 for 25 with no Failure to fire. Had never ever had a problem with this rifle.

If these weren't dud primers then I killed them somehow.
Click to expand...
Thanks for checking. Now pull the bullets and make sure that there is powder in them and check to see if the primer fired or not.

Some years ago I was reloading at a match and forgot the powder, it was exciting. Might have been at the same match, there was this guy who did some private stoning on his Jewel trigger, went to the line and the gun would not cock. Arnold Jewel was there and looked at the trigger, he reamed the guy out pretty good but he fixed his trigger.

When you pull the bullets, you can check to see if the primers fired or not. If the issue is with the case (short case, primer pocket too deep), you should be able to reproduce it by putting in a new undead primer and try again - it should not fire. If the issue was not with the case and you have a new primer, it should fire.

Or, you might just put it down to "shit happens" and move on. I would fool around with it. You should do what you think is best.
 
garandman said:
View attachment 7098910

Update:

Went back to the range and refired the 3 duds.

Nothing.

Switched over to CCI bench rest and went 25 for 25 with no Failure to fire. Had never ever had a problem with this rifle.


If these weren't dud primers then I killed them somehow.


I do have my own personal rain cloud and have found whatever can go wrong will go wrong in my life unless I pay close attention to make it go right. And even then ... lol
Click to expand...


I have fired 1000s of Federal 210 GMs with only one failure while hunting......until the other day...... The one failure, I later retried at the range and it fired. I came to the conclusion that it was a seating depth issue and the primer had moved forward when it was struck. So, I switched to a 21st-century primer tool making sure the primers were set at least .001” below the surface of the cartridge base. That tool is adjustable and sets them the same every time...

As for the other day: I made a hasty dash to the range to do a quick ladder pressure test. After resizing, I rinsed the case in some alcohol and thinking they were dry, I loaded them up. Normally I would run them through the sonic cleaner to get the lube off and properly dry them but that takes time.

At the range only 7 out of 15 fired. One hang-fired with a millisecond delay and a low FPS. Evidently, I did not let the alcohol dry completely and I contaminated several of the primers.None of them would fire upon attempted re-firing either. This was the first time I ever had a contamination issue with primers so now I’m more careful about washing my hands and making sure that the brass is completely dry etc. In other words common sense stuff .......
 
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A friend of mine oven baked his freshly wet tumbled brass for about 25 minutes at 225 degrees. He loaded those the next day and had 2 failures to fire. We pulled the bullets and the powder was clumped indicating moisture. He now "bowling ball" shakes them prior to the oven and hasn't had another issue. Just FYI...
 
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For those not familiar with the "bowling ball method"...

Take your wet brass (usually in a sifting bucket of some sort), and shake out all the water you can (doesn't have to be perfect, just shake the majority of the water out).

Then lay a heavy bath towel out on the counter lengthwise from left to right.

Now pour the brass down the center line (lengthwise) of the towel.

Fold the top third of the towel over the brass.

Then fold the bottom third of the towel over the top fold. The brass should now be inside the folded towel (basically you've made an origami tube).

Grasp the each end of the towel and pick up the brass (should be suspended, and inside the folded towel) allowing it to trickle to the middle of the towel.

Now raise and lower each side of the towel, allowing the brass to tumble inside the towel to each end, as each end is lowered and raised.

The tumbled brass will shed water as it moves, and the towel will soak it up, so it can't end up being transferred to another case.

After about 20-30 seconds of this, place one end of the towel (still being closed off by your hand/grip) over the cookie sheet, and release your grip. The brass will tumble out on the cookie sheet almost (if not entirely) dry.

Place in the oven for 20-30 mins on "warm" (usually 170-215*) to remove any residual moisture that may still be left in the case.

Done.
 
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flyright said:
A friend of mine oven baked his freshly wet tumbled brass for about 25 minutes at 225 degrees. He loaded those the next day and had 2 failures to fire. We pulled the bullets and the powder was clumped indicating moisture. He now "bowling ball" shakes them prior to the oven and hasn't had another issue. Just FYI...
Click to expand...


I'd be willing to bet this is the correct explanantion.

(1) Actual primer duds are exceedingly rare. Its VERY simple tech, and esp match primers manufactuered under tight controls / scrutiny / tolerances.
(2) I can shake the round and hear the powder. It is not a comprsssed load.
(3) It matches the known facts the best of all possible scenarios.
(4) It makes the msot logical sense.
 
MarinePMI....

think the bowling ball method is better than this?
7098983


Def cheaper. :)
 
garandman said:
MarinePMI....

think the bowling ball method is better than this?
View attachment 7098983

Def cheaper. :)
Click to expand...

Not better (since that is a media separator), but rather an additional step to remove more of the water from the cases before attempting to dry.

Personally, for SSM, I just use a mesh kitchen colander ($8 from Bed, Bath and Beyond) with a cheap sheer privacy curtain ($4 from Lowe's) laid over/in the colander as a cheap media separator. Dirty water, brass and pins go in, the colander has the stiffness/strength to hold the brass/pins, and the sheer curtain is porous enough to allow the water (and crud) to pass through easily, without the pins slipping through. Cheese cloth would work too, but the sheer curtains are synthetic, so they won't rot over time.

I rinse the cases as I dump the pins out, and the rinse water goes into the colander and rinses the crud out of the SSM.
 
MarinePMI said:
For those not familiar with the "bowling ball method"...

Take your wet brass (usually in a sifting bucket of some sort), and shake out all the water you can (doesn't have to be perfect, just shake the majority of the water out).

Then lay a heavy bath towel out on the counter lengthwise from left to right.

Now pour the brass down the center line (lengthwise) of the towel.

Fold the top third of the towel over the brass.

Then fold the bottom third of the towel over the top fold. The brass should now be inside the folded towel (basically you've made an origami tube).

Grasp the each end of the towel and pick up the brass (should be suspended, and inside the folded towel) allowing it to trickle to the middle of the towel.

Now raise and lower each side of the towel, allowing the brass to tumble inside the towel to each end, as each end is lowered and raised.

The tumbled brass will shed water as it moves, and the towel will soak it up, so it can't end up being transferred to another case.

After about 20-30 seconds of this, place one end of the towel (still being closed off by your hand/grip) over the cookie sheet, and release your grip. The brass will tumble out on the cookie sheet almost (if not entirely) dry.

Place in the oven for 20-30 mins on "warm" (usually 170-215*) to remove any residual moisture that may still be left in the case.

Done.
Click to expand...

I've cleaned more than 10k pieces of brass using this method and found that after well over an hour in the oven cases still have water in them (rifle and pistol). I made the switch to a food dehydrator specifically for this reason. The problem using an oven is there is no air circulation so water does not leave the cases. I eventually switched to a Dillon media separator and the food dehydrator, an hour later there is no water.
 
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Ok, here’s the solution to everybody’s wet brass. I use the “bowling ball” method that MarinePMI talks about. Been doing it that way for years. However, where I differ, is I spread my brass out on a dry towel on the living room floor, or the garage if it’s summer, let my brass sit long enough that I know it’s dry. While it’s drying, I load the brass I cleaned and dried last week. Moral of my story is Get More Brass! If you only have enough brass to shoot 100 rounds, then have to come home and clean it so you can load it and shoot tomorrow, you don’t have enough brass. Get more brass. Give your wet brass time to dry.
Ok, that’s my $0.02 worth. ?
 
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Cascade Hemi said:
I've cleaned more than 10k pieces of brass using this method and found that after well over an hour in the oven cases still have water in them (rifle and pistol). I made the switch to a food dehydrator specifically for this reason. The problem using an oven is there is no air circulation so water does not leave the cases. I eventually switched to a Dillon media separator and the food dehydrator, an hour later there is no water.
Click to expand...

If your oven has no circulation, you need to get a new oven (or crack the door open). At over an hour at 200*, plus cool down time, I'd say you're not doing something right (or maybe an older gas oven?; since natural gas when burned has residual moisture as a by-product).

Like Hulka says, if it's a problem, buy more brass. I run 200-500 piece brass lots, so admittedly, I rarely reload immediately after pulling them form the oven (and cooling). That being said, the times I have, I've never had wet brass, and I almost never go beyond 30 mins in the oven. The intent isn't for the oven to evaporate all the water, it's to get the cases themselves warm enough to do it on their own.

JMTCW...

ETA: Only over 10k of brass cleaned? Amateur... :LOL:
 
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I stopped drying mine in the oven because, even on the lowest setting, it discolors the brass. It doesn’t hurt them, just puts a fine layer of tarnish on them.

Plus, if I leave them in the oven till they cool, I would sometimes forget them. The next morning, my wife would come in and turn the oven on to 350 or 400 degrees and cook the crap out of them. But they were dry. ?. So, I just stopped using the oven all together.
 
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I found using a soap that has wax in it (car wash soap with wax in it) alleviates the discoloring issue (lemi-shine helps too).

As to the wife cooking the brass...my wife now knows to look in the oven before turning it on... :D
 
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MarinePMI said:
If your oven has no circulation, you need to get a new oven (or crack the door open). At over an hour at 200*, plus cool down time, I'd say you're not doing something right (or maybe an older gas oven?; since natural gas when burned has residual moisture as a by-product).

Like Hulka says, if it's a problem, buy more brass. I run 200-500 piece brass lots, so admittedly, I rarely reload immediately after pulling them form the oven (and cooling). That being said, the times I have, I've never had wet brass, and I almost never go beyond 30 mins in the oven. The intent isn't for the oven to evaporate all the water, it's to get the cases themselves warm enough to do it on their own.

JMTCW...

ETA: Only over 10k of brass cleaned? Amateur... :LOL:
Click to expand...

10k in a year. It's mostly pistol brass for USPSA. I had the door cracked, most ovens do not circulate air. The brass did eventually dry on cool down, the point was if you went straight from drying to loading in a short amount of time there's still water present. With the dehydrator the brass is completely dry when it comes out. Usually an hour is more than enough. For $35 I'm no longer processing brass in the kitchen either.

If you method works for you there is no need to change. I didn't like the water I was seeing directly after taking hot brass out of the oven. I've never had a dud from moisture in the case, just thought there was a better solution for me. There's more than one way to dry brass so the OP has a few different options now instead of just air drying.
 
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garandman said:
Just put the pizza bagels on the upper shelf, so crud from your brass doesn't drip on to it.
Click to expand...

So, it's consumption of residual particulate matter on your Hot Pockets that has you this way? Interesting ...
 
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Update:


Pulled the bullets punched out the primers.

Top: three non- fired, two showing the anvils, 1 showing pin indent.

Bottom: 3 fired primers.




7099807


I cannot say why but those 3 top primers did not fire. My best guess is water in the cases fouled the Ignition. Though I have had people tell me they tried to deactivate primers using motor oil and the primer still fired.
 
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For drying my brass I stand them on Boon Grass. Then I have a box with a fan on one end that I slide them in to. I live in a semi arid climate here at 7200 ft in Wyoming so water needs little excuse to evaporate. Hell, if you don’t use your ice cubes you’ll find your trays empty from evaporation around here.....


0E12735F-238D-4207-9891-2F2A771C47F5.jpeg
 
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I'm not going to read all these posts, so first, Fed match primers are not known to not go off. I do not think it is possible to seat a primer too deep unless you are crushing the shit out of it, and then, it is prob not depth related. Most firing pins extrude .060" from the bolt face. I'd say they were not seated in far enough, and actually getting seated by the firing pin upon firing, you should always double tap a case that does not go off. If not that, it could be headspace, too much bump, this all hinges on how tight your extractor holds the case to the bolt face. Or, if you can, look for a bent firing pin.
 
Milo 2.5 said:
I'm not going to read all these posts, so first, Fed match primers are not known to not go off. I do not think it is possible to seat a primer too deep unless you are crushing the shit out of it, and then, it is prob not depth related. Most firing pins extrude .060" from the bolt face. I'd say they were not seated in far enough, and actually getting seated by the firing pin upon firing, you should always double tap a case that does not go off. If not that, it could be headspace, too much bump, this all hinges on how tight your extractor holds the case to the bolt face. Or, if you can, look for a bent firing pin.
Click to expand...


Ya NEED to read. :) I agree - NOT likely a manufacturing fault by Federal. Thru the process of elimination and testing, I / we have come to the conclusion I didn't dry the wet tumbled cases enuf and some water fouled the primers.

I've tested and dupicated the problem.

I'll update with testing pics later.
 
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garandman said:
Ya NEED to read. :) I agree - NOT likely a manufacturing fault by Federal. Thru the process of elimination and testing, I / we have come to the conclusion I didn't dry the wet tumbled cases enuf and some water fouled the primers.

I've tested and dupicated the problem.

I'll update with testing pics later.
Click to expand...
I tried too, when I start reading about drying brass and spots on brass from ss tumbling, my fucking brain goes numb. 4-5 yrs ago there were a batch of Win primers that were bad, but if a bullet fails to come out the end of your barrel, 99% of the time, it is on the reloader, another excuse for not reading, lol
 
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Sir, I am going with "shit happens" for $1000. Sorry for the late reply, I was runnin' and gunnin' on Saturday and trying to recover on Sunday.
 
I was able to replicate the 3 dead primers by wetting them, seating them, adding powder, anx letting them sit for a day.

Dumped the powder and Three "clicks" in a row for the chambered brass. A little water will in fact kill a primer.
7100942
 
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garandman said:
I was able to replicate the 3 dead primers by wetting them, seating them, adding powder, and letting them sit for a day.

Dumped the powder and Three "clicks" in a row for the chambered brass. A little water will in fact kill a primer.
Click to expand...

Outstanding! That is a contribution to the sport. All shooters who use a case-cleaning process involving water are on notice that they must completely dry their cases or risk FTF.

Let's get scientific. I will try to reproduce your results. I suggest that others try to reproduce them too.
 
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garandman said:
I hate dust. I like SHINY brass.
Click to expand...

Me too. The dry media people act like there's no downsides to corn and walnut media. I switched away from dry media because of the mess, dust, plugged flash holes, media getting stuck in cases, etc. Wet tumbling isn't perfect either and has some downsides too but I have it pretty well sorted out at this point. With regard to this thread, my brass drys in the dehydrator while the next batch is tumbling. I can clean a five gallon bucket of pistol brass in a casual afternoon without taking any of it inside the house. My setup consists of a FART, Dillon media separator, and a cheap dehydrator. It's pretty efficient.
 
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