AI bolt smoothing

[squib]

Looking for any tips/tricks to smoothing/lightening AI bolt lift. Been using an AIAE for PRS matches, looking to fine tune my game.
My current practice is cleaning the bolt after every match, haven't got the dremel/ stones out yet.

Disclaimer: In AI's defense it doesn't help that I run near max loads and minimal head space.

 

[Dthomas3523]

You likely won’t get the actual lift any lighter.

 

[Basher]

Sit and cycle the action while watching TV or something. And keep shooting it. It should smooth itself out. Personally, unless an action is stupid gritty, I just run them, but I’ve been pretty lucky to have fairly smooth actions overall.

Edit: As others have noted, the lift effort won’t change. The action as a whole may smooth out over time w/ use, but the lift itself is what it is. It’s the price you pay for the 60* throw.

 

[Lowlight]

too many lugs to make it like a 2 lug action lift

it won't change,

 

[leftyk82]

haven't got the dremel/ stones out yet.

 

[squib]

it won't change,
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for crushing my hopes and dreams HMFIC.

BTW: Thank you for all you do

 

[garandman]

I used ceramic files on the top / bottom of the bolt lugs that ride on the rails.

Smoothed up nice.

 

[Robinhood]

Do you apply any grease to the bolt body? I apply Pro Shot grease in limited amounts and it at least helps smoothen the bolt cycle.

 

[Lowlight]

He is not talking cycle, he is talking lift,

The AI Bolt lift is heavy, the cycling is already smooth

He wants less resistance when running it

 

[garandman]

Correct me if I am wrong… I often am … but dremmeling or taking a ceramic file to the part of the bolt lug where you might relieve some of the heavy lift could actually change the head space. Which you don't ever want to do.

So as you say… "it is what it is."

 

[Lowlight]

helps explain a bit

 

[Huskydriver]

Correct me if I am wrong… I often am … but dremmeling or taking a ceramic file to the part of the bolt lug where you might relieve some of the heavy lift could actually change the head space. Which you don't ever want to do.

So as you say… "it is what it is."

The heavy lift is not a result of the lug design. The cammimg surfaces on the lugs multiply extraction force to make it easier to get a case out of the chamber. Yes that adds some resistance but with lube it's minimal. Heavy lift on an ai is a result of the shorter arc of used to cock the spring. Only way to reduce bolt lift is too: lengthen the throw rotation ie 90 degree action, lighten the firing pin spring but decrease reliability and create accuracy issues, or use some type of cocking cam device to decrease the force required to cock the firing pin spring.

The cocking force on an ai is part of why they are reliable fighting rifles. It's not a 0 ftlb cock on close, feather light on open bench rifle.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Not sure what your technique is when running the AI bolt, but if you don’t already, place your thumb on top of the stock and open the bolt with the top/side of your index finger that faces your thumb.

The thumb is keeping pressure down on the stock which keeps it from coming off target and gives you leverage to pop the bolt open.

 

[squib]

Do you apply any grease to the bolt body? I apply Pro Shot grease in limited amounts and it at least helps smoothen the bolt cycle.

I am curently cleaning and lightly coating bolt with WD40. I will try Pro Shot, thanks

Not sure what your technique is when running the AI bolt, but if you don’t already, place your thumb on top of the stock and open the bolt with the top/side of your index finger that faces your thumb.

The thumb is keeping pressure down on the stock which keeps it from coming off target and gives you leverage to pop the bolt open.

This is brilliant, I will try this technique. Thank you

 

[n2stcks]

I put an AI Competition Trigger on my AX and I swear the bolt lift has been made much easier where I no longe have to place my thumb over the top of the receiver to cock. It is set to a single stage ( as close as I could get it ) and along with the thumb rest I purchased from a SH member it was like I got a new rifle. I believe the lighter trigger pull is the reason but I really don't know. Well worth the money IMO.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I can run my AI bolt fast af. Seems the faster you run the bolt, you negate the lift weight. I dont lose sight picture of the target at all. I've ran factory 2 lug 90deg throw actions that were way worse. The Christensen arms comes to mind. Cycled like a can of shit.

 

[Simia Dei]

Sit and cycle the action while watching TV or something. And keep shooting it. It should smooth itself out. Personally, unless an action is stupid gritty, I just run them, but I’ve been pretty lucky to have fairly smooth actions overall.

Edit: As others have noted, the lift effort won’t change. The action as a whole may smooth out over time w/ use, but the lift itself is what it is. It’s the price you pay for the 60* throw.

I had to do a whole lot of this to get my second tempest to cycle like the one in LL's clip. My first action has a very light lift but my second action had a bolt lift like it was attached to a boat anchor until I'd sat and spent some time running it. Yours may just be one of those actions. It's pretty much the same now as the first action but took some time to get it there.

helps explain a bit

Also, I had to change my bolt cycling technique. Watching a Phil Velayo clip cycling an AI made me rethink my finger positioning on lift. I'm still a mong at it, but it definitely helped.

 

[garandman]

Yall put any polishing paste on the bolt lugs as you cycle it ?

 

[trophyhunter]

Disclaimer: In AI's defense it doesn't help that I run near max loads and minimal head space.

This right here is a big reason why your bolt is stiff to open. The moment your case expands cause of excessive pressure it’s jamming the bolt towards the back applying pressure to the lugs & breech ring. You have to squeeze the case on cam up to remove while overcoming expanded case. Then as it hits the camming service it needs to extract a tight case from the chamber.

 

[trophyhunter]

Yall put any polishing paste on the bolt lugs as you cycle it ?

I use Hornady dry lube spray or a thin oil on my bolt. Unless I’m fire forming brass I don’t aggressively lube the lugs.

 

[blbennett1288]

Yall put any polishing paste on the bolt lugs as you cycle it ?

A small amount of Hoppe's No. 9 Gun Grease on the lugs and bolt

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I've tried ab every lube available, whether it's a gun lube or not, and the best I've found is Hornady extreme HD. Shit is slicker than eel shit.

 

[dirthead1]

I used ceramic files on the top / bottom of the bolt lugs that ride on the rails.

Smoothed up nice.

You did that on an AI?

 

[garandman]

You did that on an AI?

No. Rem700. But if it works and is needed, Id do it to the Holy Grail.

 

[Sheldon N]

Disclaimer: In AI's defense it doesn't help that I run near max loads and minimal head space.

IMO one of the biggest aspects to getting a smooth running PRS gun is the load prep. I'm a big fan of sizing brass at that fine line right where it hits "zero resistance" and allows the bolt to close freely. Also running loads that are conservative and have no hints of pressure or any bolt lift that's noticeably harder than just cycling an empty action. I think the points you gain from being able to be smooth and stress free are well worth any perceived ballistic advantage you get from a few extra FPS.

 

[Steel head]

IMO one of the biggest aspects to getting a smooth running PRS gun is the load prep. I'm a big fan of sizing brass at that fine line right where it hits "zero resistance" and allows the bolt to close freely. Also running loads that are conservative and have no hints of pressure or any bolt lift that's noticeably harder than just cycling an empty action. I think the points you gain from being able to be smooth and stress free are well worth any perceived ballistic advantage you get from a few extra FPS.

Hot loads are overrated.
I'm not Fighting a clock when I shoot and I’m lazy so I neck size a lot but I also agree properly sized brass is an important factor if you want smooth functioning.

 

[garandman]

I've tried ab every lube available, whether it's a gun lube or not, and the best I've found is Hornady extreme HD. Shit is slicker than eel shit.

All -

Not asking about lube


Asking about polishing paste that can remove small burrs and imperfections faster than cycling with lube.

 

[Huskydriver]

All -

Not asking about lube


Asking about polishing that can remove small burrs and imperfections

No such thing on an ai ?

 

[Aaron47pb]

There is actually one friction/contact point that can sometimes be really rough out of the box and it can make the primary extraction portion of the bolt lift feel gritty/rough. You can put some Flitz/polishing compound here and cycle it to smooth it out:

 

[squib]

Hot loads are overrated.
I'm not Fighting a clock when I shoot and I’m lazy so I neck size a lot but I also agree properly sized brass is an important factor if you want smooth functioning.

I'm a whore for horsepower.

 

[garandman]

IMO one of the biggest aspects to getting a smooth running PRS gun is the load prep. I'm a big fan of sizing brass at that fine line right where it hits "zero resistance" and allows the bolt to close freely. Also running loads that are conservative and have no hints of pressure or any bolt lift that's noticeably harder than just cycling an empty action. I think the points you gain from being able to be smooth and stress free are well worth any perceived ballistic advantage you get from a few extra FPS.

^ ^ ^ This. Success in competition involves what happens after AND BEFORE you break the shot. A reliable, smooth running, confidence inspiring gun is as important as an extra 50 fps.

 

[MakeSawdust]

Dthomas and Sheldon have the answers. A combination of those two things will make it easier to run any gun. I run a Savage action and people comment all the time on how smooth it looks. I ran a new TL3 the other day and it runs like greased lightning compared to my Savage. Having magazines and bottom metal tuned to cycle well also play a part in how smooth an action runs, but probably not an issue in an AI.

 

[ShtrRdy]

OP - I was thinking the AE model used a 2-lug bolt instead of the 6-lug bolt. How many lugs are on your AE bolt?

 

[ormandj]

I am curently cleaning and lightly coating bolt with WD40. I will try Pro Shot, thanks

WD40 is a terrible lubricant. Toss the cans away and you'll do yourself a huge favor in a lot of ways. WD40 gums up and becomes a sticky mess in short order on anything you apply it. CorrosionX makes a good water displacement replacement for it, but isn't a lube. Hornady One Shot is a surprisingly good alternative that works like people think WD40 works.

 

[Basher]

WD40 is a terrible lubricant.

That’s because it isn’t a lubricant at all, haha. It’s a water displacer and rust inhibitor, but most certainly not a lubricant, so you’re right there!

 

[ormandj]

That’s because it isn’t a lubricant at all, haha. It’s a water displacer and rust inhibitor, but most certainly not a lubricant, so you’re right there!

Which is why i suggested a far better water displacement option with corrosion prevention, as well as a lubricant that works like most think WD40 works. I'm well aware of the properties of WD40 (terrible at everything it purports to do and certainly terrible at things people assume it does) but the reality is it is never the right option. It was fine when it came out, but we've come a long way since!

 

[spife7980]

Yall put any polishing paste on the bolt lugs as you cycle it ?

No, if you try to lap your lugs in like that you will just create a high spot on one side and a mirrored low spot on the other.

Just need to dry fire and shoot it to wear it smooth.

 

[6brshooter]

OP - I was thinking the AE model used a 2-lug bolt instead of the 6-lug bolt. How many lugs are on your AE bolt?

Ae are a 3 lug bolt, aw/ax/at are 3 lug bolt with 2 rows=6 total lugs. My old ae is smoother than moose snot compared to my 6 mo old at. My ae is smoother than most worked over 700 and the tl3 I had. I'm referring to bolt cycle and cocking bolt lift.

 

[garandman]

No, if you try to lap your lugs in like that you will just create a high spot on one side and a mirrored low spot on the other.

Just need to dry fire and shoot it to wear it smooth.

OK, but I'm not understanding. If all surfaces of the bolt are coated with paste, all polishing paste does is accelerate tha same exact same "wear in" in the exact same places you get by cycling & dry firing.

 

[6brshooter]

It's not the bolt lug surface that creates the noticeable heavy bolt lift. It's the cocking ramp on bolt body and cocking piece that creates heavy bolt lift. Curtis uses a roller bearing on their cocking piece to alleviate the heavy bolt lift on their 3 lug action. Some 3 lug actions use dual cocking ramps, also. The only time that bolt lugs could contribute to heavy bolt lift is if one is bearing all the load (polishing paste wont fix that) or if the bolt lug was parkerized or had a coarse finish applied (those would wear smooth with grease and 20-50 bolt cycles).

 

[garandman]

It's not the bolt lug surface that creates the noticeable heavy bolt lift. It's the cocking ramp on bolt body and cocking piece that creates heavy bolt lift. Curtis uses a roller bearing on their cocking piece to alleviate the heavy bolt lift on their 3 lug action. Some 3 lug actions use dual cocking ramps, also. The only time that bolt lugs could contribute to heavy bolt lift is if one is bearing all the load (polishing paste wont fix that) or if the bolt lug was parkerized or had a coarse finish applied (those would wear smooth with grease and 20-50 bolt cycles).

OK, I don't doubt that. But if cycling / dry firing can "wear in" a bolt / action, then logically.... polishing paste can accelerate the process.... WHATEVER part of the bolt is causing the heavy lift... e.g., cocking ramps / bolt lugs / even bolt internals. The wear in, with or without paste, is just smoothing / removing tiny machining imperfections. The paste does the same thing, but faster. The "heavy" is caused by friction at SOME point. Wear in - with or without paste - minimizes the friction. Paste does it a bit faster.

If cycling / dry firing cannot wear in an action, then polishing paste can't help.

I don't really care either way. I don't have this problem. But those who do might care / might want to accelerate the process.

 

[6brshooter]

You're missing what I'm saying. Some actions, by design, have heavier bolt lift. No amount of wearing in will change that. For example, a badger 2008 action had heavy bolt lift. It wasnt because badger did a crappy job executing the action or machine work, it was because of the steep cocking ramp and strong firing pin spring. Savage action do feel better after they've had several 100s of rds put down them, or bolt cycles.

I guess I look at this as the same as the .25 action job on a glock. Sure it smooths it up the same as shooting a 1000rds in a glock, I'd just as soon shoot the rds/articulate the action to gain proficiency, as opposed to short cuts. You do you, though.

 

[mojavejim]

And this is why I buy my AI's new. It's built to a spec. for multiple reasons, leave it alone. It's not a lego AR.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Every action that comes through my shop gets the bolt/cocking piece interface surface/surfaces polished. That area and the bolt lugs should get lubed every time the rifle is used.

 

[Basher]

Every action that comes through my shop gets the bolt/cocking piece interface surface/surfaces polished. That area and the bolt lugs should get lubed every time the rifle is used.

110% true, but those steps won’t (or shouldn’t!) change the cocking ramp geometry. It may smooth it out, but the geometry is what it is. I think that’s the point of the above comments.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

110% true, but those steps won’t (or shouldn’t!) change the cocking ramp geometry. It may smooth it out, but the geometry is what it is. I think that’s the point of the above comments.

Very true. The firing pin has to be, for lack of a better term, preloaded with energy. That means spring weight, firing pin weight and firing pin travel are all factors. You can't fool mother nature. A 3 lug action is going to require more effort to rotate the bolt VS a 2 lug action.
Depending on the action there are times I can change the geometry slightly. Enough to feel the difference.

 

[Basher]

Depending on the action there are times I can change the geometry slightly. Enough to feel the difference.

Well, not all of us are as talented as you are, so.... ?

 

[squib]

Every action that comes through my shop gets the bolt/cocking piece interface surface/surfaces polished. That area and the bolt lugs should get lubed every time the rifle is used.

Sir, what type of lube would you suggest?

 

[garandman]

Every action that comes through my shop gets the bolt/cocking piece interface surface/surfaces polished. That area and the bolt lugs should get lubed every time the rifle is used.

Well... I don't know nuthin' bout nuthin'.... but this just makes sense to me. Every machined part ever is gonna have tiny burrs / imperfections. Polishing them away can only be a good idea.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Sir, what type of lube would you suggest?

Pretty much anything you have around as long as it's a grease not an oil. Oil works well for the body if it's a problem for you. I also put a dab of grease on the body at the 12 o'clock position, fore and aft on the body.