I am interested in getting a scope with the tremor 3 reticle. Coming from a military background I am used to the mil-dot reticle and graduated to the TMR reticle on all my rifles. All the video's and articles on YouTube regarding the Tremor 3 assumes that you are familiar with the Tremor 2 reticle and are making the switch to the Tremor 3. Is there a video or book on the Tremor 3 that breaks down the concept for the beginer who has never used a (Christmas tree) reticle before.
Rifle Scopes Tremor 3 Reticle
- Thread starter Rterlaje
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You might do a search for Tremor 3 and several posts will come up. Here is several on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGWO8Sku5K_d0TZYTS5bUeQ
At first I was looking at Tremor 3 but Frank doesn't seem keen on them and it seems people like the Mil XT over it.
Todd Hondett has a couple videos on the Tremor 3 (and others.)
Check Accuracy 1st website.
I personally don’t like any of the Tremor reticles. Way too much stuff for the style of shooting I do. Overkill, IMO. Such as, The “wind dots” are, ehh, not really needed, IMO, if you know your gun.
Check Accuracy 1st website.
I personally don’t like any of the Tremor reticles. Way too much stuff for the style of shooting I do. Overkill, IMO. Such as, The “wind dots” are, ehh, not really needed, IMO, if you know your gun.
if you are completely new to xmas tree reticles, you can also study on the H59, which is sort of the basis for the tremor 3 and covers the basics of using that sort of reticle. the T3 is an enhanced H59 with wind dots and other features.
The Horus stuff definitely has it place in the shooting world, but it seems to be more on the rifle is the tool of your profession. You can get a ton of data and very quick shot correction if you know the system, but it’s just that a system.
Hey man you might want to look into the Mil-XT. I switched over to it after running H58s and H59s for years. I was going to snag a T3 for my new ATACR but decided to try the Mil-XT. Love it. Holds are holds, so once you know them and are proficient at quickly reading the subtensions, there’s really nothing special.
That being said, if you are set on the T3, it isn’t hard to learn once you sit down with it and start shooting.
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That being said, if you are set on the T3, it isn’t hard to learn once you sit down with it and start shooting.
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Most of the reticle repeats itself so when you learn one thing you are essentially learning many more.
It isn't busy for me but the larger wind dots can sometimes get in your way if aiming at very small targets.
Other than that it is brilliant in design and functions well for military sniper use so I've heard.
It isn't busy for me but the larger wind dots can sometimes get in your way if aiming at very small targets.
Other than that it is brilliant in design and functions well for military sniper use so I've heard.
The accuracy 1st video explication that theLBC replied with is everything you need to know. Figure out what your wind dots are with a little data in your ballistics calc and your set. Then you can quickly adjust windage holds while holding over using the mirage as a wind mph judge. Like any other tree reticle your proficiency using the reticle is directly related to how well you understand it and how confident you are using it quickly under pressure and limited time.
I'm another of those "not a fan" folks. I run G3s in all of my Bushnell scopes, and I have yet to come up with anything that the H59 or T3 is supposed to do that I can't do on the G3 with far less clutter.
I am one of the "is a fan" folks ...
For me there are 3 fundamental classes of reticle ...
01 - Duplex - dial for elevation and wind, or else use the critter as the reticle, with the center of the cross hairs to aim with.
02 - Mil/MOA - dot/hash - dial for elevation, hold for wind, or else use the critter as the reticle (as above)
03 - Holding reticles - hold for elevation and wind (can also use critter as above).
The advantage of the 02 over the 01 is speed. No need to take the time to dial for wind.
The advantage of the 03 over the 02 is speed. No need to take the time to dial for elevation.
==
Now within the 03, class, there are two other classes which extend the 03 class.
The tremor-3 has MPH wind dots built into the reticle, so you make your wind call in MPH and hold in MPH. For me, this enables fast first round hits out to 800yds (as far as I can shoot on my land currently) off tripod (RRS) shooting at IPSC (2/3) steel.
I hit 4 out of 4 on the torso on this day .. with cross wind varying from 8-10 MPH and made the correction based on hearing and without taking my eye off the target. Just think "now hold for 10 MPH" and do it.
Also hit 2 out of 3 on the face (6x6) that day. I don't usually even try for face at that distance, but was feeling lucky that day.
So the T3 reticle works for me, with how I shoot. I realize, I doesn't work for everyone with how they shoot, but just wanted there to be at least one person posting in the thread who is using them. I started using T3 reticles in Feb 2018 and still use them now. I have 3.
T3 is a "no dial" reticle. And this is also an advantage if you use rifle mounted range finders on your rifles, which I do.
With the rifle mounted range finders up there, you want to range with the scope dialed to 100yds (your zero distance). With T3 reticles, I only dial when I am zeroing. With dialing reticles, like the 02 class, I have to dial up the elevation to shoot, and then dial back down 100yds to range and then dial back up to shoot and then dial back down to range. With a holding reticle, I don't have to do that.
==
The final variation of reticle class I'm aware of is the DTR (David Tubbs Reticle). This one also has wind dots (some say David had them before Horus, and I believe it), so like the T3, no ballistic calculator required to hold for wind. But the DTR goes further and includes factors like DA and aerojump in the ballistic reticle, so the DTR IS your ballistic calculator and no need to us a ballistic calculator for either wind or elevation. I haven't gotten the guts to try the DTR yet, but its definitely on my "bucket" list
http://www.davidtubb.com/dtr-scopes?product_id=189
For me there are 3 fundamental classes of reticle ...
01 - Duplex - dial for elevation and wind, or else use the critter as the reticle, with the center of the cross hairs to aim with.
02 - Mil/MOA - dot/hash - dial for elevation, hold for wind, or else use the critter as the reticle (as above)
03 - Holding reticles - hold for elevation and wind (can also use critter as above).
The advantage of the 02 over the 01 is speed. No need to take the time to dial for wind.
The advantage of the 03 over the 02 is speed. No need to take the time to dial for elevation.
==
Now within the 03, class, there are two other classes which extend the 03 class.
The tremor-3 has MPH wind dots built into the reticle, so you make your wind call in MPH and hold in MPH. For me, this enables fast first round hits out to 800yds (as far as I can shoot on my land currently) off tripod (RRS) shooting at IPSC (2/3) steel.
I hit 4 out of 4 on the torso on this day .. with cross wind varying from 8-10 MPH and made the correction based on hearing and without taking my eye off the target. Just think "now hold for 10 MPH" and do it.
Also hit 2 out of 3 on the face (6x6) that day. I don't usually even try for face at that distance, but was feeling lucky that day.
So the T3 reticle works for me, with how I shoot. I realize, I doesn't work for everyone with how they shoot, but just wanted there to be at least one person posting in the thread who is using them. I started using T3 reticles in Feb 2018 and still use them now. I have 3.
T3 is a "no dial" reticle. And this is also an advantage if you use rifle mounted range finders on your rifles, which I do.
With the rifle mounted range finders up there, you want to range with the scope dialed to 100yds (your zero distance). With T3 reticles, I only dial when I am zeroing. With dialing reticles, like the 02 class, I have to dial up the elevation to shoot, and then dial back down 100yds to range and then dial back up to shoot and then dial back down to range. With a holding reticle, I don't have to do that.
==
The final variation of reticle class I'm aware of is the DTR (David Tubbs Reticle). This one also has wind dots (some say David had them before Horus, and I believe it), so like the T3, no ballistic calculator required to hold for wind. But the DTR goes further and includes factors like DA and aerojump in the ballistic reticle, so the DTR IS your ballistic calculator and no need to us a ballistic calculator for either wind or elevation. I haven't gotten the guts to try the DTR yet, but its definitely on my "bucket" list
http://www.davidtubb.com/dtr-scopes?product_id=189
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The issue is the value of those wind dots changes based on cartridge, etc, so you still have to do the math to know what the real value of that dot is. Or you can do what Emil Praslick teaches and learn/have a chart for your 1MPH wind values and simply hold the appropriate wind call on your MIL/MOA tree reticle. I can easily hold for both wind and elevation on the G3 without touching the dials if needed.
The T3 for military application is great for competition and general shooting it’s unnecessary.
Some write it off completely but given combat the T3 is very helpful for unknown distance targets, that move, especially when they’re maneuvering on your position.
I like the RET tree, and mover base holds, the Christmas tree on the top stadia is convenient for accurate milling.
For these purposes it’s fitting.
Some write it off completely but given combat the T3 is very helpful for unknown distance targets, that move, especially when they’re maneuvering on your position.
I like the RET tree, and mover base holds, the Christmas tree on the top stadia is convenient for accurate milling.
For these purposes it’s fitting.
One of my close friends was a SEAL sniper and a friend of hodnett and obviously a Horus fanboy.
I dislike those reticle.
I Don’t need all that bling and have seen plenty of people make mistakes with it by using the wrong scales.
Just give me a simple tree reticle.
If I was a sniper shooting at typical ranges they shoot at (a lot shorter than many think) with a known commodity cartridge and lots of practice with that setup I could totally understand using the H59 and tremor 3.
That’s not my world.
I shoot quite a bit further at often smaller targets that don’t shoot back and I’m probably smoking a cigar and talking shit.
I’ve used a lot of different reticles and have really memorized the math for 308, 300wm and 223 winds, I’m never faster than I am with a T3. The dots are very quick and effective. Especially when one is shooting unknown distance targets quickly.
With a kestrel and 5min on YouTube finding dot values is pretty easy too.
T3 isn’t for everyone, I really believe it’s a scope for combat and civilian sector second. It’s overkill for competition shooting but I could see some hunters liking the dots for wind calls. Otherwise 50% of the features of the scope are unused.
Tremor Reticles have their place for certain applications. What’s your intended use?
I have a couple of friends that are very good competition shooters that love the Tremor 3. What they tell me is for stages in a match that require multiple targets in a steady wind it is much faster than dialing and having to look at a dope card to figure out wind for each target. And I have watched them clean troop line stages in wind at an amazing speed.
Having said that, I bought two scopes with Tremor 3 reticles and am already selling one of them. Mostly because I wanted to go back to a Tangent Theta, but honestly I don't have the patience to stick with the Tremor 3. And the guys I know using them in matches all tell me you have to be persistent and give yourself time to learn the reticle well enough to be able to use it without having to 'think' too much on the clock.
Having said that, I bought two scopes with Tremor 3 reticles and am already selling one of them. Mostly because I wanted to go back to a Tangent Theta, but honestly I don't have the patience to stick with the Tremor 3. And the guys I know using them in matches all tell me you have to be persistent and give yourself time to learn the reticle well enough to be able to use it without having to 'think' too much on the clock.
The wind dots work and are fast and accurate, it’s as simple as that. I think most of the haters are just too cheap to watch pay the premium for the Horus licensing fee and/or too cheap to pay for an optic that it comes in since they start around $2K.
I finally tried the reticle a couple years ago and I wouldn’t go back to anything else. Literally everyone I know who has gotten one optic with T3 has ended up getting more.
I finally tried the reticle a couple years ago and I wouldn’t go back to anything else. Literally everyone I know who has gotten one optic with T3 has ended up getting more.
Read Post 11 and 15. Thoughts?
You did not ask me, but I’d like to offer my opinion: the premier snipers in the military choose the T3. I suppose it’s easy to discredit these guys from the sidelines but fact is I don’t hear very many complaints whatsoever. Actually the biggest complaints I hear are from people who don’t use the reticle at all and are civilians.
How much of that is major military contracting and procurement vs what the actual trigger pullers are picking for themselves? I know which one I would bet it is...
I’m speaking specifically of USASOC big Army doesn’t use the T3.
Premier snipers are shooting maybe 500 yards with absolutely no need to dial.
Those famous long shots are the tiny exception not the norm.
Against bad guys my buddy in 19 yards years in the teams never shot past 600 yards with a sniper rifle.
Have you been to Afghanistan?
There are plentiful opportunities to shoot well past 500yds, and we do it pretty often.
Those boys don’t carry 300wm to slug targets at 300..
No but my buddy was.
600 yards was his furthest there.
I’m pretty sure my local swat team practices longer distances then you’re suggesting military snipers do most of their work at. Yes longer shots are less prevalent in an urban setting, but those boys are supplying over watch to a hell of a lot more real estate then just a few city blocks.
When it comes to USSOCOM, MARSOC, and other SF stuff it's more the trigger pullers that are evaluating and helping make the calls on the stuff. It doesn't work the same as big solicitations. You mighta RO'd for some of those dudes too
I’m pretty sure that average shot by police snipers in actual situations is less than 100 yards.
When it comes to USSOCOM, MARSOC, and other SF stuff it's more the trigger pullers that are evaluating and helping make the calls on the stuff. It doesn't work the same as big solicitations. You mighta RO'd for some of those dudes too
Oh, I've done a bit more than RO for some of them. I know a bit about how the selection process works for SOCOM purchasing contracts, but I also realize (as I am sure you do) that a lot of politics and institutional momentum are involved, too. The trigger pullers don't always (I'd bet less than half the time, in fact) get the final say in what gets picked, especially when some beancounter would rather piggyback off an existing contract for another product than buy something better for the actual use case, or some O6+ is eyeing a fat check at Company X after he retires.
Because USASOC is totally immune to Army contracting and procurement, right?
Yes, I am well aware units can buy damn near anything they want with unit funds. Doesn't change the fact that even SOCOM/USASOC contracting is often driven by politics and other shenanigans.
I'll also add that I've known more than a few dudes running non-Horus reticles on deployments with either unit or personally purchased optics. Even in SOCOM, the T3 isn't the end-all, be-all reticle.
You are correct, most LE shots are under 200 but I shoot with a few of the local guys and they are practicing everything from 50 to 1000 just for that one in a million change it’s a long shot. Plus if you can be consistent and confident at extended ranges, then short shots are all that much easier
Think you had a little typo there. Fixed that for you.
Yer funny....
They’d be incompetent if they didn’t practice further.
I don’t anyone here would disagree with having confidence at 1000 yards makes those 100-300 yard shots a no brainer.
You win the pissing contest you know more than I.
As a trigger puller I and many of my teammates like the T3. I don’t know why that’s an issue for you but you don’t have to use it.
I didn't view any of this as a pissing contest, but OK.
I dislike the T3. It's too busy, and I can't see where it has any benefits over a well designed MIL tree reticle. As a result, I run a mil tree reticle, and I am happy with it.
I have friends that love the T3. More power to them (and you), but I dislike it. Some of my friends have deployed with it - some of them have taken other optics without T3s because that's what they preferred. All of them are or were SOF dudes.
Your original point seemed to be going for the line of "If SOF uses it, it must be great." I was providing counter points - nothing more.
Have you actually used a T3 for any period of time. Like acquired an optic with it be it bought or borrowed and took it out to the range for a few sessions?
I appreciate the bottom line, you don’t like it, and that’s fine.
I was not discussing the procurement process and it’s flawed nature. What I stated is that SOF choose this reticle and I meant that as I said it. The operators liked the T3 and that’s what a couple or hard chargers went after. I know them and they listened to the community.
I feel like that is very relevant when discussing the application of this piece of the equipment. Many here hate it but it really wasn’t made for them and those who it was made for like it. So in my mind that’s a win for the end user.
That was my point.
Not for a few sessions consecutively, no, but I've been behind a couple different scopes with them - including several range sessions spread out over time. One of my good friends and semi-frequent shooting partners is a big T3 fanboy, and he and I butt heads on a regular basis on a friendly basis over T3 vs other reticles. I fully understand the claimed benefits of it - and in a MIL environment, I can see how it can somewhat simplify training, especially in an environment with the same (or relatively so) rifles, optics, and ammo being issued to a relatively large number of shooters. However, I think with a little more time on a different reticle, the guys that love the T3 could be just as effective with a simpler MIL tree reticle - but the training curve might be a bit longer.
That said - when I have been behind one (as well as the H59 and H32 in spotters) I found them to be all too busy - and often made it hard to get a good read on splash for impacts and misses. At least with the 32 in the LMSS the reticle is in the bottom of the FOV, so it's easy to keep out of the way when not needed. The same can't be said for H59 and T3 when shooting, unfortunately.
With a good MIL reticle (IE: G3) I can make .1 mil holds pretty effortlessly, despite only having .5 markings. I've spent enough time behind it at this point that I can pretty reliably measure targets down to .05 when practicing UKDs (for all the use I actually have for that skill, I still try to practice it). I can dial or hold for both elevation and wind pretty effortlessly, and I can easily mix-and-match dials and holds as needed (EX: Dialed for 500 on a mover, hold under for 250-450).
And yes, I realize that a lot of my dislike for the T3 is likely based on my familiarity and comfort level with the G3 reticle and similar designs - much like a lot of the dudes I know that live the T3 or H59 feel lost when they go to a MIL tree reticle that doesn't have as complex of a grid, and struggle with minute holds.
Finally, if anyone read any of my comments as something along the lines of "Hurr, T3 users are stoopid" or something, or somehow coming across as condescending - I apologize, as that certainly wasn't the intent. The down side of internet message boards - tone and inflection don't work here, so it's easy to misread intent.
Your points have merit, there's no doubt of that. I was more making a general point on procurement. I don't know offhand if I know any of the guys involved in the T3 selection (It's likely, but I haven't asked around), but I have seen other SOF selection processes go off the rails and end up with something the guys in the field didn't want or like.
Being coerced into liking it is not the same as organically liking it and most don't like it, people were bribed to like it.
The Army actually is changing it slightly and removing the parts they don't like, there is an Army variant out there, and they are being sued over it as I was lead to believe.
The main problem is the "IDEA" this is new and because it was patented, there is little choice. The patent dept doesn't know so they gave a patent for a Mil hash, holdover reticle even though we had those since WWII.
Rather than fight the patents, they just roll with them, but now do you see push back and there is new adjustments in the works.
The T2 Reticle was said to be the best, everyone had to have it, it failed, how is they like the T3 but hated the T2, that seems unnatural to me.
What they liked is the H59, they wanted a variant of that...
first impressions matter, and with most people their first impression is negative, because of this down the road your brain will rebel.
The Army actually is changing it slightly and removing the parts they don't like, there is an Army variant out there, and they are being sued over it as I was lead to believe.
The main problem is the "IDEA" this is new and because it was patented, there is little choice. The patent dept doesn't know so they gave a patent for a Mil hash, holdover reticle even though we had those since WWII.
Rather than fight the patents, they just roll with them, but now do you see push back and there is new adjustments in the works.
The T2 Reticle was said to be the best, everyone had to have it, it failed, how is they like the T3 but hated the T2, that seems unnatural to me.
What they liked is the H59, they wanted a variant of that...
first impressions matter, and with most people their first impression is negative, because of this down the road your brain will rebel.
I just purchased a scope with the T3 yesterday ... There is a lot going on there. Is it easy to adapt to?
I'd say it depends on you. Run it for a while and find out, then let us know.
I had a couple HDMR's with T2's. I liked the wind system but the combination of some regular mil hashes and then the wind dots on the same line just being different shapes was very slow for me. The mil lines were also flat useless if you want to hold wind in mil value, which I like having the option of doing. T3 does a lot better job of breaking it all up. On the top of all the 1mil grid horizontals you have a regular H59 reticle with hashes every .2mil, and then you have the wind dots on the bottom side of the line and also wind dots .5mil in between each of the 1mil grid lines. It's split up much better and allows you to hold drop and wind using either method. There's times where both come in handy.
Tremor 2 was a cluster fuck of a reticle.
It's just mils,
Speed is what nails people, they often hold the wrong line because of our brains like defined intersections and not the grid. it is will seek out the parts that stick out, which is not always the point you want to hold. Under speed or fatigue it's not uncommon to see people hold wrong.
Many current users dial it, then only hold when necessary. Dialing does change the wind dot value though.
It takes practice and training like anything and can be mastered with time and effort.
But it's just mils and we know Mils work.
WWI and WWII Anti Aircraft Spider Web sights are Mils too and a holdover system, based on the quadrants the plane is coming from. Same concept.
Speed is what nails people, they often hold the wrong line because of our brains like defined intersections and not the grid. it is will seek out the parts that stick out, which is not always the point you want to hold. Under speed or fatigue it's not uncommon to see people hold wrong.
Many current users dial it, then only hold when necessary. Dialing does change the wind dot value though.
It takes practice and training like anything and can be mastered with time and effort.
But it's just mils and we know Mils work.
WWI and WWII Anti Aircraft Spider Web sights are Mils too and a holdover system, based on the quadrants the plane is coming from. Same concept.
i use the H59 and would not give up having a tree reticle.
i can see how the wind dots would make it faster to transition down the tree for rapid shots at increasing distances, as opposed to keeping track of which mil mark you were on (since there are fewer dots). i don't find the H59 busy at all, so i suppose i would have to use the T3 to find out if it bothers me.
1959 The Battle Of Coral Sea Movie,
I went downstairs and took a picture,
A little hard to see might have to darken the room for contrast, but this is a Mil Hash Mark reticle from a Submarine Periscope
How do you patent mil hash marks, without acknowledging prior Art ... well if the USPTO has no clue, they have no clue
Mils are Mils, sure these are Military Mils, 6400 vs 6283, but they are still mils,
I went downstairs and took a picture,
A little hard to see might have to darken the room for contrast, but this is a Mil Hash Mark reticle from a Submarine Periscope
How do you patent mil hash marks, without acknowledging prior Art ... well if the USPTO has no clue, they have no clue
Mils are Mils, sure these are Military Mils, 6400 vs 6283, but they are still mils,
IMO, that's where a good tree reticle shines - just enough markings to get the job done without being so busy that you really have to look at it to get to the right point. To be specific, why the hell do I need 6-10 mils of horizontal at 1 mil below center like the H59/T3? The G3 has .25 mil to each side of the vertical at 1 mil below center - and I can easily reference my main horizontal if I actually need more than that (EX: Dialed for 500, holding over 1MIL for 600 or so and need .75 of wind)
I picked up a Nightforce 7-35 a few months ago with the Tremor 3 and am really liking it. Never used it before this but I don’t find it too busy at all. The caliber calculation for the wind dots is not hard at all and once you have it for your caliber it comes in handy. In the long run, as long as you know how to read Mils and holds then it all falls in place.
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