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So Disappointing

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HMFIC of this Shit
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Minuteman
  • Apr 12, 2001
    35,483
    39,176
    Base of the Rockies
    www.snipershide.com
    To the Bankers and Lawyers fresh off their Holiday Inn Express Stays,

    I am seriously bummed about the conduct regarding the Gunwerks news. Every time you think lessons were learned, people remind you they are just as stupid as the day before and learned nothing from past mistakes. We saw this same thing repeated many times, a pearl clutching article appears, and the race begins to tear them apart harder and faster than the last time you broke out the torches. We need a bigger bonfire seems to be the mindset.

    I see you as Vultures sitting on the wire, looking down your noses searching for a carcass to pick apart. Just let that visual sink in.

    The rush to destroy is strong and I hoped the continued warnings about attacking companies would sink in. Companies want to support you, but you make it really hard most days. I talk less and less to companies lately because of this very thing. I can use my horsepower to secure all sorts of deals for people. There are always companies looking for some consultation on how to better serve the industry and forums like here should be the easiest answer imaginable. Instead you choose to run these people off because of the tiniest triggers I have ever seen. Devoid of facts, simply going off a single side article, you instantly choose sides and start dividing the pieces. We saw this with Accuracy International when a liberal journalist tried to spin a single off hand comment regarding bump stocks. They even got the main characters names wrong, but everyone wanted to rip AI a new ass because of a single politically driven article.

    This memorial weekend I suggest you reflect on your participation in trying to destroy a company based on single article. Think about the workers there, and what that company has been doing to promote and educate the shooters out here. Are they completely self serving or do you see them working to keep this industry moving forward in a positive way.

    I happen to like everything Gunwerks does, I consider myself a fan of them from Top to Bottom. That fandom is what makes me, me and the driver of this site. That is what you are missing. People often wonder, why him, why them, because you just don't get it. The attacks you leveled were out of line and instead of taking a wait and see approach, you struck, with both both hands and your feet.

    Here is a bit of insight, I was talking with Gunwerks before this news dropped. In the middle of everything, at 9PM I see this article. The next morning I spoke to them and asked a few simple questions. Mainly, will you be addressing this issue, the answer was an immediate yes, and I was told the process was moving forward this was a tactic. Okay, so I waited, and watched the circus roll into town.

    There were several people who reached out to me to ask, if I felt this was a nail in the GW coffin. I said no. I backed off contacting Phil Velayo as I figured he was being flooded by questions and since I was talking with Landon, I didn't need to talk to bother Phil. Its amazing how many can recognize Phil as a rockstar in this industry but then attack his employer before seeing what his take on it was. He is certainly smart enough to be given the benefit of his insight prior to launching into a series of attacks. The fact he is standing by the company should say all you need to know, especially if you have any respect for him.

    You internet lawyers and bankers have egg on your face, again.

    Rather than walking away with your tail between your legs for jumping the gun, you decide to defend your position and double down. That has taken the form of second guessing how the business is being run. That is none of your business as it does not effect you in any way. There are no red flags coming out of the Gunwerks camp. What these weak individuals are doing is trying to make themselves look better after looking so stupid by playing Monday Morning Quarterback as if you would have run this business so much better. Some of you come off oh so superior.

    I haven't decided, I have stayed out of the threads about this, but seeing how several members are trying to double and even triple down on the attacks, I may go on a silent banning spree today. Race Day, couple of hours watching the cars go round and round, seems like a good time to return the Sniper's Hide universe to balance. Thanos is right, sometimes there are just too many of the wrong people hanging around. A quick snap to return things to balance. I fancy myself a dictator and I know that pisses people off, but hey, I like it. So like ripping off the bandaid, I think a quick snap to put a little perspective on what Sniper's Hide is about.

    I did not create Sniper's Hide so you could tear companies down. I did it to exchange information, to help promote all facets the shooting sports. This is supposed to be a community and you tried to banish a company without all the facts. To make it worse, when Gunwerks stood in front of the camera and said, we have it handled the article was a tactic, you attacked that message too. You didn't like the tone, after you attacked them, you didn't like the attitude, after you attacked them. You wanted them on their knees begging for their life as if you had the power to make or break it. For that reason, I will remove the cancer before it spreads.

    There are cases were companies deserve the benefit of reflection and there are some cases where we should act early. If 10 people came out of the woodwork and said Gunwerks has their money and went silent, okay, let's start compartmentalizing. But that was not the case here. You had no red flags, in fact we saw the opposite. We know politically it's easy to put a gun company in a bad light, they are doing that everyday with all of us. The 2nd Amendment is not a Hunting or Competition Clause, it's to protect us against tyranny. When you have people standing in front of Capitals exercising this right because they feel the current conditions are Anti American, that is not Terrorism, that is exactly how the 2nd Amendment was envisioned. Stop helping them.

    This ended up way too long, but hopefully you get the point. Understand this bottom line, the more you act the way you did over the last couple of days. The less companies want to participate or support you. They can easily sit back, do the usual and let you pay retail. You don't see more giveaways or freebies because I worry about this type of behavior. I shouldn't have to explain to people that is not how I want my site to Be viewed but, the members make the forum. I can guide the ship, but you are all manning the sails. I had secured a GW deal for the members prior to this, I am not sure the current condition of that effort, I feel you all ruined it for sure. Timing was bad I know, for that I feel bad.

    I don't want blind allegiance, but feel respect is deserved, you practice that respect by not racing to the worse, but by employing a bit of common sense. You didn't see me post for a reason. If you called for the pitchforks early and often, you may not be here come Tuesday. If you tried to save face and doubled down you definitely will be shown the way out.
     
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    Why does everyone always believe the first thing they are told? Most choose sides on that information alone. With this issue a figured there was more to the story seeing how wells fargo had a hand in it. So once again the name of honorable business is drug across the flames for public scrutiny. I am glad the truth came out and will definitely patronize their business.
     
    I was so glad and relieved when we got away from Wells Fargo on a property deal in S. Texas years ago. Never had I seen such a dysfunctional, unorganized financial institution deploying unethical misleading tactics all for their, WF, best interest regardless...
     
    I have a brother in law who used to work for Wells Fargo, they were required to open so many new accounts per month, to the point that they would lose their job if not done. So, humans being human, they started opening fake accounts, asking friends to open fake accounts just to keep a job, finally that came out a couple years ago and my brother in law is now elsewhere, Wells Fargo is a horrible bank. I’ll personally only ever use local banks. My personal banker lives 3 houses down from me. First name basis. Screw national banks.
     
    For those who missed it, this was a great response:

    To everyone who’s reached out and thought about me and my family’s well being with recent news. All I have to say is: Thank you! Zoie and I are truly grateful and thanks for reminding me why I love the long range shooting community.

    For everyone else; probably be best if you spend more time at the range working on your skills on being a better rifleman and less on the Snipers Hide forum trying to discourage the successfulness of a 2A business. The $10k long range systems we sell might not be everyone’s cup of tea, and that’s fine but I see first hand what type of clientele are buying Gunwerks rifles. And I do my best to educate them that buying a Ferrari doesn’t automatically make them a professional sports car driver.

    If you got that .25 MOA banger for a quarter of the price of a Gunwerks system, I am truly happy for you. I hope you know how to use and maximize the full capability of that rifle system, in any clime and place and to the best of what you define as “proficiency.” My question to you is, if you got a Honda Civic that takes you from point A to Point B and you are happy with that, why are you hating on the guy that wants to do the same thing in a Ferrari?

    Pretty sure Frank started Snipers Hide so that people could share their experience and help those that are looking to get into long range shooting and/or find some relevant information on it.

    We’re still training and training was solid this week, as the shooters in this pic don’t have the time to lurk on forums or Facebook, Instagram. They’re too busy running multi-million dollar companies, and using their off time to get educated in the art and science of long range shooting and exercising their 2A rights as a red blooded American.

    Anyways. I hope that everyone can use Snipers Hide as a resource to help their goal of being a relevant and modern day rifleman because I enjoy sharing my videos on here for that reason.

    Thanks guys and keep your face on the gun.
     

    I am ashamed that they were Wyoming citizens/reporters that did this.
    I am a Capitalist at heart. I hope continued success for Gunwerks.
     
    One thing I have tried to live by since I started using Al Gore's interweb is: "post less, read more"

    I try not to post about things I have little or no knowledge of. I don't always succeed, but I try.

    Frank is right. I remember when we used to have company reps like Nightforce and others regularly on the forum. They are no longer here for a reason.
     
    It's embarrassing having to apologize for some of the members here. it may not have anything to do with me, but I try to provide a better experience here by keeping balance.

    I get a ton of push back from the registration restrictions we put in place. Because of the scams, the attempted hacks, I have 3 layers of security for the members. that means often safe registrations are flagged as potential spam. We look at IP, Location, Email, and even user names because they tell a story. So then we quarantine those accounts by rejecting them. This leads to a ton of hate mail because the default language calls it spam.

    I don't care, I get yelled at all the time, usually 3x a day for this policy. The results is less scammers and we don't wake up to a Chinese invaded forum.

    Removing members has never been a problem for me, we have good customers and bad customers. Why make the good customers suffer through the bad behavior, some people get it, others don't. I don;'t pander to the bad, I remove them.

    A lot of things I do go against traditional thinking, okay, it either works for me or it doesn't. If it didn't I probably would have changed tactics years ago. Instead I have dug in deeper because I think it makes the quality of the forum better. I have two choices, I can focus on numbers or quality...
     

    I am ashamed that they were Wyoming citizens/reporters that did this.
    I am a Capitalist at heart. I hope continued success for Gunwerks.
    The news media is a propagandist enterprise, regardless of the state. They are lower than lawyers and even less honest.

    One thing I have tried to live by since I started using Al Gore's interweb is: "post less, read more"

    I try not to post about things I have little or no knowledge of. I don't always succeed, but I try.

    Frank is right. I remember when we used to have company reps like Nightforce and others regularly on the forum. They are no longer here for a reason.
    I miss those days as well, and the attitudes prevalent in the tech forums to rail against the company reps, professional instructors and anyone with real world shooting experience outside of the PRS gamers (and abundant cheating) was a major deciding factor of mine to step away from my own participation in them. I’m far from alone in this decision.

    The Pit is just too much fun to fuck with pretentious fags and idiots for me to totally leave the site.
     
    This really sucks. Its yet another blow to a strong 2A business.

    But unfortunately in this age of 24/7 news, too many people jump to a conclusion based off one article, as in GW's case here. Not to cross the thread, but just look at threads here about police. How many here jump to convict the officer or bad guy based on one news story?

    We ALL need to come together and support each other, our 2A/gun/ammo companies, and our Hide. See this for what it is, another attack by the anti-gunners trying to divide and defeat us.
     
    I see you as Vultures sitting on the wire, looking down your noses searching for a carcass to pick apart...

    The rush to destroy is strong ...

    Devoid of facts, simply going off a single side article, you instantly choose sides and start dividing the pieces...

    What these weak individuals are doing is trying to make themselves look better after looking so stupid by playing Monday Morning Quarterback as if you would have run this business so much better. Some of you come off oh so superior...
    You're not wrong. Lots of this going on all over the internet concerning this issue.



    I could list others.

    It is just a simple fact that a large percentage of people attracted to gun forums...maybe forums in general, are total fuck sticks.
     
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    You're not wrong. Lots of this going on all over the internet concerning this issue.



    I could list others.

    It is just a simple fact that a large percentage of people attracted to gun forums...maybe forums in general, are total fuck sticks.
    Fudds. They are called Fudds.
     
    Given everything said so far, what was this doing in the bolt action forum anyways? The only place on SH for a topic with that tone is the Pit. It was certainly far from a discussion on bolt action rifles. The temper of threads like that shape the entire Bolt Action forum, or whatever forum they are in.

    There have been times I held my tongue because a conversation that had turned sideways was the Rimfire or Rifle Scope or whatever forum. On a few occasions I posted positive comments on a product and someone felt the need to rip the product apart through me. Had this occurred in the Pit I would not have held back. I know I am not the only one.

    There are lots of prying eyes on sites like this and we have a edged toward a tendency to eat our own. I'm sure the other side enjoys watching this. Can we move threads like that to the Pit? For many of us, decorum dictates that the Pit is the only place where such self-regulation should happen. There is a time and place for such things. Let's force it to that venue, if it has to happen.

    Having said an inflammatory thing or two myself and having enjoyed watching mud-slinging around here, I really don't like to see that in the "normal" threads.

    I don't shoot at vultures from my office window, but I sure as fuck feel free to do so from the deck.
     
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    I still don’t understand the anger at Gunwerks that was apparently waiting for an outlet to come to the surface. I’ve seen the snide comments over and over again on several other forums as well but it universally comes from people that don’t own their equipment. So far I haven’t heard anything bad about Gunwerks Products or services there was just people complaining about how their rifle prices were expensive. After the article came out it just seemed like a bunch of people were looking for an excuse to justify their prejudice against Gunwerks.

    While I personally don’t have any interest in their rifles as they aren’t CRF I do have two Revic’s one of which I got because they were nice enough to provide a code for us Hide users to save $400. Not even Long Range Hunting, where they have been active for over a decade and who were far more reserved during this escapade, got that opportunity.

    I’m sure as Frank said this will make it harder to secure such deals in the future since they will look back on this debacle to see which groups really supports them and which ones will turn on them with the slightest provocation.
     
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    The news media is a propagandist enterprise, regardless of the state. They are lower than lawyers and even less honest.


    I miss those days as well, and the attitudes prevalent in the tech forums to rail against the company reps, professional instructors and anyone with real world shooting experience outside of the PRS gamers (and abundant cheating) was a major deciding factor of mine to step away from my own participation in them. I’m far from alone in this decision.

    The Pit is just too much fun to fuck with pretentious fags and idiots for me to totally leave the site.

    "We" have chased off my favorite NF rep (who won a benchrest match with a SFP 3-15 NXS and is a really nice guy), a Delta operator (who described a clever match strategy that led to he and his partner taking the podium), someone very funny and double distinguished, and a SEAL sniper (who used to be my boss) because free-wheeling mall ninjas called into question their creds and began piling on like a band of over-sexed monkeys. All of them shameful moments. All those moments arising out of what should have been informative discussions.
     
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    Back when I was a kid, the stupid people were accepted but they weren't loud. They weren't amplified.

    Today, thanks internet, every stupid people has a trillion watt amplifier plugged into a Snoopy guitar trying to play Voodoo Chile by Hendrix.

    At least smoke signals get erased
     
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    It’s a jealously thing,

    guys who can’t afford something feel the need to attack it because of the cost associated to owning them.

    saw it with AI stuff, anything considered expensive is fair game to the vulture class because the can’t afford it. They are vultures for a reason, happy to pick the bones, easier than working for it, is to bitch about it.

    could be rifle, scope, etc, if it’s priced above a certain level it’s bad.
     
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    I made a comment about $10K hunting rifles not flying off the shelves and I made an assumption about GWs financial troubles it was snarky and I regret it and I am very glad I was wrong. To the people of Gun Werks I apologize. Now please bring the Kestrel Killer to market and take my damn money already and if you want to take more of it how about a LRF Bino with built in compass that can send range and DOF to your Kestrel Killer.
     
    “O beware, my lord, of jealousy; It is the green-eyed monster which doth mock the meat it feeds on.”

    We are increasingly living in a time where those who can and do must bear as the cost of business, the stupidity and social awkardness of those who never bothered and resentful. It's as simple as this and perhaps with a side helping of people not having anything better to do with their time. People do not feel a personal responsibility to be informed on the topics that they hold, virulently defended, positions on. Saying something is the fool's gold standard instead of saying something valuable. The ignoramus' version of #MeToo.

    Frank, I believe you know Josh at PVA. With what happened to him on here because of his attempt to bring to market a novel, forward looking concept of cost effective, match compliant production rifles was the same 'over sexed monkey' pile on (credit to MTT). The slightest slip up, the smallest error is met with frenzied judgement and the fuckwittery of the 'cancel culture'. Many here rile against the atheists and FSA yet they behave with the same sense of entitlement and contempt for others.

    Nial Ferguson made an interesting observation that the growth of the internet was to be inevitably a vehicle for greater polemic groups rather than the unity of mankind through access to information (a finger in the eye of those who believe 'perfect markets could be achieved through perfect information). I've lurked on here for a while prior to jumping in and many years ago was a member. I do hope that The Hide doesn't become an echo chamber for the low information brigade who simply use the idea of guns to be their symbol of 'Merica and their stunted idea of what freedom and liberty should look like rather than wishing to be competent riflemen.
     
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    "We" have chased off my favorite NF rep (who won a benchrest match with a SFP 3-15 NXS and is a really nice guy), a Delta operator (who described a clever match strategy that led to he and his partner taking the podium), someone very funny and double distinguished, and a SEAL sniper (who used to be my boss) because free-wheeling mall ninjas called into question their creds and began piling on like a band of over-sexed monkeys. All of them shameful moments. All those moments arising out of what should have been informative discussions.


    Amen. Idiots chase off the knowledgeable people.

    Empty barrel makes the most noise and all that
     
    Over the past few weeks the site has gone very sideways in a lot of threads. A lot of attacking rather than discussing. Guess the quarantine has people a little antsy.
     
    It’s a jealously thing,

    guys who can’t afford something feel the need to attack it because of the cost associated to owning them.

    saw it with AI stuff, anything considered expensive is fair game to the vulture class because the can’t afford it. They are vultures for a reason, happy to pick the bones, easier than working for it, is to bitch about it.

    could be rifle, scope, etc, if it’s priced above a certain level it’s bad.

    This is the point. So many where ready to pile on just because they felt it reinforced the fact that they do not spend 10k per gun or 85 per box of ammo. They want to look down on those that do because they can’t .
     
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    If its a dumb thing to do you can always count on someone thinking " yea i could do it " and promptly trying it . There are highly intelligent people out there in the world , but for every 1 of them there are 100 million walking talking backward regular people in the world and thank god for them cause the world would be a hell of a boring place without the crazy people to remind us our problems though large to us could be a hell of a lot worse . Or that some where there is someone you can point to and say that god i am not that fucked up yet .
     
    what are we talking about here?

    I'm not totally sure either but I think it went something like this:

    - Other thread listed GW was getting sued by the bank.
    - All sorts of 'OMG you didnt pay sales tax!11!1!!'
    - Then armchair quarterbacks and the half semester of economics they took show up to let us know their take on how poorly run a business GW is and how they had to have been doing shady shit
    - Then it becomes known that GW has a LoC with Wells Fargo which was in good standing until WF corporate decided that the definition of inventory that was always used to collateralize the LoC, all of a sudden meant something else, vastly reducing the amount GW could draw on the LoC, overnight, due to a manipulation of words
    - WF realizes this and calls the loan/files a lawsuit for the LoC balance, which GW actually has in cash on hand to pay
     
    I'm not totally sure either but I think it went something like this:

    - Other thread listed GW was getting sued by the bank.
    - All sorts of 'OMG you didnt pay sales tax!11!1!!'
    - Then armchair quarterbacks and the half semester of economics they took show up to let us know their take on how poorly run a business GW is and how they had to have been doing shady shit
    - Then it becomes known that GW has a LoC with Wells Fargo which was in good standing until WF corporate decided that the definition of inventory that was always used to collateralize the LoC, all of a sudden meant something else, vastly reducing the amount GW could draw on the LoC, overnight, due to a manipulation of words
    - WF realizes this and calls the loan/files a lawsuit for the LoC balance, which GW actually has in cash on hand to pay
    Thanks for the summary. And thanks to the site owner for taking a stand. FWF and the stagecoach they rode in on. I've had bad dealings with them before, and they dont care that they are dirt bags.

    I'd invest in a pro 2A bank of some of you deep pockets "pay-your-bills" types want to go.

    I bet their were no current, or previous, business owners who jumped on the shit wagon to pass judgement on GW.
     
    It’s a jealously thing,

    guys who can’t afford something feel the need to attack it because of the cost associated to owning them.

    saw it with AI stuff, anything considered expensive is fair game to the vulture class because the can’t afford it. They are vultures for a reason, happy to pick the bones, easier than working for it, is to bitch about it.

    could be rifle, scope, etc, if it’s priced above a certain level it’s bad.


    Yes. Petty, small and childish.
    Some of the same personalities envision themselves defending the honor of this republic. Sacrificing blood and treasure to do things bigly.
    Fighting the Leviathan will take more brains than brawn.
    Thinking men are rare.
    I'm not a rocket surgeon nor rich. But I do know when to listen not talk, learn and admit my ignorance.
    Mostly I respect others as much as they deserve

    Peace HMFIC, most have your back.
     
    D44A64B7-1EEB-4CBB-BD23-5839B2817790.png
     
    I'm not totally sure either but I think it went something like this:

    - Other thread listed GW was getting sued by the bank.
    - All sorts of 'OMG you didnt pay sales tax!11!1!!'
    - Then armchair quarterbacks and the half semester of economics they took show up to let us know their take on how poorly run a business GW is and how they had to have been doing shady shit
    - Then it becomes known that GW has a LoC with Wells Fargo which was in good standing until WF corporate decided that the definition of inventory that was always used to collateralize the LoC, all of a sudden meant something else, vastly reducing the amount GW could draw on the LoC, overnight, due to a manipulation of words
    - WF realizes this and calls the loan/files a lawsuit for the LoC balance, which GW actually has in cash on hand to pay

    Thanks for clearing that up German, I missed all the action.

    I fancy myself a dictator and I know that pisses people off, but hey, I like it.

    Best thing Ive read all day, LOL (y) 😂 :cool:
     
    @lowlight , I'm just greatfull you let me be a member all those short years ago. I ran across this sight and wanted in to learn. I now know that as far as shooting goes, I don't know shit, and I don't have a problem saying that. With that said, I do know some things about business and I would rather have quality rather than quantity. That holds true for employees as well as customers. As one of your 'customers' (member) I'd rather that you had a good clientele. Sometimes, fewer is better. I'm not sucking-up, just trying to look at this from the business lens, and Frank has some tough decisions to make.
     
    IMHO, the loss of ANY reputable gun business is a loss for all of us and the 2nd Amendment. In another thread people were cheering on the demise of Bushmaster and another company that Remington decided to shutter. I don't get that mentality. Many here wouldn't own one, but not everyone has $3K to drop on a new rig.

    Anti-gun leftists were also cheering. They've been trying to bankrupt the gun industry with frivolous lawsuits for decades.
     
    IMHO, the loss of ANY reputable gun business is a loss for all of us and the 2nd Amendment. In another thread people were cheering on the demise of Bushmaster and another company that Remington decided to shutter. I don't get that mentality. Many here wouldn't own one, but not everyone has $3K to drop on a new rig.

    Anti-gun leftists were also cheering. They've been trying to bankrupt the gun industry with frivolous lawsuits for decades.
    Yea sometimes we are like blue crabs in a bucket...….anyone who's ever been crabbing knows what I am talking about.