Isn't bureaucracy fun?
- Thread starter oda175365
- Start date
The reports thus far indicate that the Cross uses a barrel nut system and a swappable bolt head. User barrel changes should be pretty simple and the Fury case even issues a standard .473" size bolt head, so no need to mess with the bolt.
FWIW - Per a friend at SHOT, the Sig felt "junky" and the bolt was sloppy. Other than being heavier, thought the RPR is a better product.
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That'd be a shame. Given I cannot find anyone other than "Q" trying to compete in this space, let alone someone trying to compete at a comparable price...
That would be disappointing, especially since I paid $722 for my RPR out the door at Sportsman's Warehouse last year.
I think we should hold off on judgement until they get out more and into the hands of folks who may not have any skin in the game.
That had to be the heaviest rifle I have ever owned. Shot well enough but borescoped the barrel and it had to be the roughest bore I have ever seen...no idea why it shot as well as it did.
Damn I probably have a barrel as heavy as an RPR
14lb barrel is pretty hefty, 30" heavy palma is the heaviest I have ever used. That was around 6 1/2 lbs.
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What does one use this for? Does one just beat game to death with it instead of shooting them?
Wonder if a mini version is in the works for 223 and 300 blackout
cause it's a waste to cut down a barrel. free speed
It's not a waste when the alternative is lugging around a bunch of unneeded barrel weight and snagging your can on every branch in the forest while chasing game.
I don't get why folks keep comparing the Cross to the RPR, they are rifles meant for very different purposes. The Cross should be compared with other lightweight hunting rifles, and in that realm, it has a bunch of nice features you don't get elsewhere, especially for the price.
I like my RPR, but it's a rifle for laying down and smacking steel at range, heavy and stable. Carrying it 1-2 miles through a shooting course is ok, but I'd never choose to tote it 7-12 miles a day for several days at a time up in the mountains looking for elk, and that's exactly what I'm considering the Cross for.
My 243 RPR with a Nightforce on it weighed right at 14lbs, it was a range rifle. The balance was weird, just felt like a chunk of steel and I hated carrying it from the truck to the bench. It would have taken less than 10 seconds to decide I would never carry that thing in the field after game. Some rifles feel right in the hand and some don't, that one was gone in less than a year. I think the only rifle I have sold faster was an AK.
If it had a Carbon fiber barrel, control round feed, and mechanical ejection it would make me buy the first production rifle that I’ve bought in a long time now. Other caliber options would be nice as well. I’d love to have one set up for night hunting. It’s already pretty light with out a carbon barrel, but by the time I add all my night hunting gear it will weigh 12 pounds.
How much weight would be saved on a 16” barrel in stainless vs carbon fiber? Obviously barrel profiles play heavily, but I’d be curious what similar profile weight differences would be.
It looks like more calibers and barrel lengths will be offered according to the shot videos. It’ll be interesting to see what’s offered for sure
A carbon fiber barrel would have increased cost by several hundred dollars while giving zero advantages in a hunting rifle. Maybe unpopular opinion but if you want your rifle to look cool, install your own Proof barrel when they become available.
Cut that shit out, being pragmatic has no place here in Gearqueerville.
The base contour for CF barrel won't weigh that much less than the steel barrel. Then there's having enough diameter to thread for a brake.
I'll add you need a certain amount of rigidity for a can. Less isn't always better.
I'll add you need a certain amount of rigidity for a can. Less isn't always better.
Carbon barrels are only lighter than steel barrels of equivalent diameter. I have a couple of carbon barrels and I could have used lighter weight all steel barrels. Proof CF barrels have merits beyond weight though. However, if I were building a dedicated hunting rifle that only needs to fire a one or two shot string I would use a LW steel barrel, not CF.
Likewise. They do look nice for sure especially if you are dropping it into a stock that has a big barrel channel. A CF barrel MIGHT give you a few more accurate shots, but realistically how often do you have to take more than 3 shots at game that quickly and at a range where slightly less accuracy would matter?
I feel the same about the comment regarding the action feeling cheap. On a hunting rig a round gets chambered only a couple times a day in a hunting situation. The only time you are going to notice the action being shitty is shooting from the bench. If you want a comp gun there are much better options. Some corners had to be cut to get this price. As long as the barrel is decent and the gun is accurate and reliable, I can live without some things.
Agree with this. Still looking to see if saami approves this fury round.
Ironically, one of the reasons that SIG Sauer exists was an effort for Schweizerische Industrie Gesellschaft (SIG) to get around even more restrictive exportation restrictions in Switzerland and expand the market for their pistols.
Not sure what it was, but the one I handled in Vegas was... rattly?
Could be a new gun needing a couple thousand reps, or the barrel extension not mating up perfectly with the trilug bolt head, but there was more play in it than I would like. It felt in between a Ruger American and an RPR in terms of action feel.
It was a cool gun, but I can't say I'm impressed by the 6.8 diameter, the high pressures of the .277 Fury, or the claims that only their gun can handle the round.
The bolt and overall lockup of the gun didn't give any indicia of superior strength, and the bolt itself actually looked kinda puny. The amount of steel around the bolt nose reminded of me of Grendel bolts on ARs. It's a thin steel ring around the case head, and not as deep as I would like. On the steel based brass, likely not an issue, but I do like to see beefy components for the other chamberings in which traditional brass will be used.
It was slightly barrel heavy, but it pointed well. A low power optic with a short barreled 6.5 CM Cross would make a great hunting gun.
I don't like the .277 Fury, but I'm rooting for it. It may make sense for the military as a machine gun round or for duty weapons where barrel wear is not an issue. It doesn't make sense RIGHT NOW for most of the civilian market. There are lots of good, high BC, affordable factory loads out there in other calibers, and as a light hunting gun, it would be pretty cool.
I do have thoughts about the merits of the round, however.
I don't know what effect moisture will have on stored ammo or how the dissimilar metals of the case will protect against it. I also don't know what barrel life will be like, but I suspect it won't be great due to the pressures.
That said, I do hope that this is the kick in the ass bullet makers need to roll out high BC 6.8mm projectiles. I would love to see a high BC, lower pressure, traditional brass loading. I would also love to see bullet makers jump on this. I want more .270 options.
Could be a new gun needing a couple thousand reps, or the barrel extension not mating up perfectly with the trilug bolt head, but there was more play in it than I would like. It felt in between a Ruger American and an RPR in terms of action feel.
It was a cool gun, but I can't say I'm impressed by the 6.8 diameter, the high pressures of the .277 Fury, or the claims that only their gun can handle the round.
The bolt and overall lockup of the gun didn't give any indicia of superior strength, and the bolt itself actually looked kinda puny. The amount of steel around the bolt nose reminded of me of Grendel bolts on ARs. It's a thin steel ring around the case head, and not as deep as I would like. On the steel based brass, likely not an issue, but I do like to see beefy components for the other chamberings in which traditional brass will be used.
It was slightly barrel heavy, but it pointed well. A low power optic with a short barreled 6.5 CM Cross would make a great hunting gun.
I don't like the .277 Fury, but I'm rooting for it. It may make sense for the military as a machine gun round or for duty weapons where barrel wear is not an issue. It doesn't make sense RIGHT NOW for most of the civilian market. There are lots of good, high BC, affordable factory loads out there in other calibers, and as a light hunting gun, it would be pretty cool.
I do have thoughts about the merits of the round, however.
I don't know what effect moisture will have on stored ammo or how the dissimilar metals of the case will protect against it. I also don't know what barrel life will be like, but I suspect it won't be great due to the pressures.
That said, I do hope that this is the kick in the ass bullet makers need to roll out high BC 6.8mm projectiles. I would love to see a high BC, lower pressure, traditional brass loading. I would also love to see bullet makers jump on this. I want more .270 options.
Tbh, there wasn't anything about the bolt/barrel extension lockup that made it appear any stronger than any other action.
I think they said the extension was a different material and the lugs were a bit larger.
They also might have said that it runs ok on some Remington 700s. Didn't say anything about crf bolt heads though.
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I'm not tracking what you're saying. What are you stating here?
The sales people from Sig said in some videos that they have fired in .277 Fury out of Remington 700s and it worked ok.
So far it does not appear that they have tried using controlled round feed bolt heads. I'm just wondering if there would be an issue containing the higher chamber pressures due to the more open geometry and less secure construction of CRF bolt heads.
The cartridge should function fine, regardless of the type of action (push feed or CRF). The issue is the action itself, and whether it can handle the higher pressures.
Yes that's what I meant. They indicated at least some common actions can fire the cartridge safely. I'm just wondering if the chamber pressure is too high for crf actions to safely handle.
Again, it has nothing to do with an action being CRF.
I think what he's saying is that CRF doesn't cup the base of the cartridge like most push feed actions do, and that in the event of a casehead separation it might be more dangerous because gas isn't as contained.
Doesn't affect action strength at all, but might allow more gas to escape.
I understand what he's saying, I'm just trying to politely tell him he's mistaken in assuming the case head support will matter, with a steel base'ed cartridge like the high pressure version of the Fury. That's the whole point of the steel base.
What you are saying could make sense. The steel base is containing the extra gas pressure. The increased forces are mostly exerted as a backward mechanical force on the bolt lugs.
I still wonder about the case rupture scenario though. Could it truly be worse with a CRF bolt heads? Are you more likely to have those early on in the introduction of a new case design?
Depends how well supported the case head is and the construction of the gun. Most modern actions are insanely strong. Most have built in gas escape systems in the event of a pierced primer or a casehead failure.
A recessed bolt face like a Remy is really strong. Same with Savage, Howa, etc.
My CRF Winchester does not have a recessed bolt head to support the case. However, it is designed to vent gas out of the receiver through the extractor groove and out the bottom of the receiver. It's not going to kaboom unless something really crazy like an obstructed bore happens.
And you got your engineering from where?
Loads on the action are more or less down to bolt thrust , .277Fury is just shy of bolt thrust .300NormaMag exerts ,so any action that can handle the large magnums can handle Fury without any issues. (note that when you go for long over short action ,in most cases ,you have same locking lug surface or shear area as in short action just a longer OAL)
Really? I had no idea. ?
As soon as I get the basket of extensions I ordered.
By my calculations the bolt thrust comparing .473" (308-CM-etc.) and (.555" SAUM-WSM etc.) diameter cases, the bolt thrust would increase approximately 33% given the same chamber pressure.
Increasing pressure from 60K to 80K is a 33% increase.
Seems reasonable to expect this to work.
The Cross has angled lugs which transfers some of the load outwards where the hoop strength of the extension carries some of the load.
We all know Lapua's are being run on 700's and other similar actions. I don't recommend that but it is what it is.
I'm looking forward to getting my Cross. Not sure I want the recoil of the Fury in a rifle that light.
I’m a fan of heavier barrel profiles for more than just because I run suppressed and putting a pound on the end of a fatter stiffer barrel just makes sense to me. It’s close to a pound difference if you compare a heavy contour stainless barrel to carbon (@ 16”). Not as much of a difference if you’re talking smaller contours, but ounces make pounds. I wouldn’t care if a barrel looked like homemade soap, if its lighter, more accurate, and dissipate heat faster I’m interested.
Admittedly.... I haven’t read every single post in this thread. When are these available out on the streets? And is $1,600 the price?
I stopped by Cabela’s yesterday and asked about these rifles...I was curious if they were going to stock them, and if they had an ETA.
The “expert” behind the counter replied back with “everybody and their brother wants an AR15 these days, and gun manufacturers had to shut down just like the auto plants did. So with the gun grabbing going on, slow shipping times along with a 2 month hiatus in production, should I be surprised there aren’t any AR15’s on the shelf”?
I was tempted to clarify my question, and explain what the Cross is...But he immediately transitioned into a rant about a “pot licker” that came in with a grocery cart and tried buying all of their ammo (to resell obviously). I don’t know why I even bother going in there sometimes.
Can’t verify the source, but found this after a little google searching today...posted 10 days ago. The availability date and similar pricing was confirmed further down the page by somebody else who was told the same by their vendor. I’ll order a black 6.5 right away if this is the case, I’d like to get some time behind one before hunting season gets here.
The “expert” behind the counter replied back with “everybody and their brother wants an AR15 these days, and gun manufacturers had to shut down just like the auto plants did. So with the gun grabbing going on, slow shipping times along with a 2 month hiatus in production, should I be surprised there aren’t any AR15’s on the shelf”?
I was tempted to clarify my question, and explain what the Cross is...But he immediately transitioned into a rant about a “pot licker” that came in with a grocery cart and tried buying all of their ammo (to resell obviously). I don’t know why I even bother going in there sometimes.
Can’t verify the source, but found this after a little google searching today...posted 10 days ago. The availability date and similar pricing was confirmed further down the page by somebody else who was told the same by their vendor. I’ll order a black 6.5 right away if this is the case, I’d like to get some time behind one before hunting season gets here.
Cabelas in Hamburg, PA?
I got yelled at because I was looking at rifles with a threaded barrel for my suppressor. He went on about how anyone with a suppressor was stupid because you lose all your rights or some BS like that.
