Build or Buy ?

[BarkBeetle]

I have read many posts here on builds gone south with customers caught on the horns of a dilemma , ask for your money back ( no guarantee of that )
or just keep pouring money into it, like buying a FIAT, fix it again Tony.
I got a fine rifle by a very well known gunsmith on my first venture into custom rifle construction, but there are now literally thousands of new custom
rifle manufacturers and parts assemblers who call themselves custom gunsmiths like the days of yore when everyone was a custom .45 auto gunsmith.
I personally don't have the time or money anymore to go a fishing expedition and am just considering buying something like the Daniel Defense to
get out of the gate running and work on shooting, shooting, shooting, not waiting on a gunsmith somewhere to practice his craft.
Don't mistake this post as a rant against custom gunsmith's, they have their place but I firmly believe the vast majority of shooters are not and will never
be in the top tier and buying yourself into those stratified heights is just wishful thinking.
Rant over !

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

Buy an action that takes prefit barrels. No gunsmith needed, build EXACTLY what you want. Have the parts (minus the action) shipped to your doorstep and build it in your living room in your underwear.

Easy.

 

[Mauser06]

Depending what you are building, Other than chambering and muzzle threading if you desire, you really don't need a smith. Even if you have a bedding job, it's not really difficult.


Problem with factory guns IMO is the majority have crap for barrels and chambers. The heart of the rifle.


Start with a good barrel. Pick you action and bottom metal...pick your stock. Unless you're getting an action that isn't a m700 clone, you can probably for the action yourself if it doesn't drop in.


IMO many shooters have the wrong mindset. "I don't need that...my shooting isn't that good". "I'm not shooting benchrest...xxx is good enough".

I'm not a top tier shooter. But I want my rifle and my handloads to be top tier. I want my misses to be on me. I don't wanna leave that to question.


If I find my gun or loads to be limiting, it's time to start working on that.


A good barrel and chamber job, good ammo, and fundamentals goes a long way.



Another reason to build is to get exactly what YOU want.

 

[Newbie2020]

The smart people on here have beat into me: ACCURACY IS IN THE BARREL!!!

My next build will have a top quality barrel, regardless of action or caliber.

 

[Supersubes]

For every negative internet post, there are thousands enjoying their item or build or whatever. I also don’t agree with the “I’m not top tier so I don’t need top tier”. These are rifles, not Bugatti’s. Buy what you want, and no need Overcomplicate it. I just posted this in another thread but if you’re concerned about compatibility, just ask. So many options that don’t require a fishing expedition. Easiest time in history to build a precision rifle.

 

[Rocketmandb]

I have read many posts here on builds gone south with customers caught on the horns of a dilemma , ask for your money back ( no guarantee of that )
or just keep pouring money into it, like buying a FIAT, fix it again Tony.

If you get a custom build from a reputable smith, the chances of a build going south are incredibly small, and if it does, they will take care of you.

 

[hafejd30]

There’s several builders on this site that I’m sure other members can recommend. I’ve used LRI for some work and have never been treated so well. So I recommend something from them

There’s several vendors on this sight that you often see go out of there way to help people even if they’re not their own customers. So I highly recommend looking into the one’s active in here

Or as pointed out earlier. Just build your own. Decent action, big horn origin comes up as a good recommendation and utilizes savage prefit barrels and bolt heads that can be swapped. Then add a high quality barrel (I’ve been very pleased with CBI) bed into a stock or bolt into a chassis or something like a manners stock with a mini chassis.

Topped with great glass, high quality rail and mounts and I see no reason it wouldn’t perform to your expectations.

 

[JBattles]

The smart people on here have beat into me: ACCURACY IS IN THE BARREL!!!

My next build will have a top quality barrel, regardless of action or caliber.

Couldn't agree more - find an action that you can get prefit barrels for... that will make your life much easier.

 

[BarkBeetle]

I don't believe mine was a negative post, it was a realistic post.

 

[goosed]

I'm confused...

Are you trying to ask a question or just rambling cause I don't see a question in the OP?

I see Daniel Defense (bolt gun?) mentioned as a good starting point. Was this just a light hearted spoof and we missed the punch line?

 

[BarkBeetle]

Read it again, if you think I'm rambling, arguing with you or explaining my rational is pointless.

 

[MikeRTacOps]

Buy an action that takes prefit barrels. No gunsmith needed, build EXACTLY what you want. Have the parts (minus the action) shipped to your doorstep and build it in your living room in your underwear.

Easy.

Jesus I almost pissed my crime fighters LOL ....Why in your underwear ? This is the HIDE go full Balls Out

But what would I know ?

Mike R.

 

[goosed]

Read it again, if you think I'm rambling, arguing with you or explaining my rational is pointless.

So you're being serious... And... there still isn't a question, just statements of opinion...

Don't get me wrong I clearly think the writing/typing in your OP lacks the cohesion necessary for any thing even remotely resembling clarity. Yet as a fellow SH community member I still want to see you succeed at your endeavors and don't want to see you spend your money unwisely. So...

Since you seem to be looking for affirmation; sure, a custom might not be right for you. We each have different values and priorities. I have no skin in the game over which rifle you choose just please put your hands on the DD bolt gun before spending your hard earned money on one. It certainly didn't live up to quality I initially expected from the brand name and price attached to it. If you do your research it isn't just me that believes there are far better options on the price vs quality spectrum to pick from.

 

[BarkBeetle]

Affirmation ????
Whatever !

 

[Snipe260]

I’ll answer the question to your title of the thread. If you want custom performance and don’t want to build I would vote AI. But, there are several builders on this site that you couldn’t go wrong with! It all depends what you are looking for as for as your needs!

 

[cjs88]

Had my custom built by GAP and it turned out fantastic. A plus side, it was finished 3 months earlier than estimated. I'll caveat that I sent it off in early April right when Rona was taking off. Not sure how it got finished early with low staffing but it did. Maybe people weren't sending theirs in to be built? Who knows.Like others said, stick with the well known smiths and you'll be fine.

 

[celltech]

Get the ARC Nucleus rifle, shoot the piss out of it, and then put a prefit of your choosing on it when needed. Simple...

 

[Dthomas3523]

Ever since people started this “building” their own bolt rifles, the amount of feeding issues and such has gone through the roof. So much so that different cartridges or actions or mags have developed reputations for having feeding issues.

What’s really happened is people stopped having smiths build and tune their rifles. They see “700 pattern” and incorrectly assume it will all just bolt together fine.

People see “700 pattern chassis“ and somehow think that chassis will be a perfect universal fit for round and gusseted actions without bedding and such. When it’s impossible to make a universal fit chassis when not every manufacturer uses the same geometry even though it’s “700 pattern.”

I’ve lost count how many times I’ve seen FB posts showing a gaggle of components someone just bought. Then the very next match they are having feeding issues.

Fact is that many times tuning and such is very common and this is where a competent smith comes in handy.

At the very least, if you buy all the components, pay a competent smith to tune the mags and such to make sure it’s running perfectly. Not to mention, the less people get smiths to build, the faster some will go out of business and then you can’t find anyone not backed up 6 months to do any work for you.

 

[Winny94]

Ever since people started this “building” their own bolt rifles, the amount of feeding issues and such has gone through the roof. So much so that different cartridges or actions or mags have developed reputations for having feeding issues.

What’s really happened is people stopped having smiths build and tune their rifles. They see “700 pattern” and incorrectly assume it will all just bolt together fine.

People see “700 pattern chassis“ and somehow think that chassis will be a perfect universal fit for round and gusseted actions without bedding and such. When it’s impossible to make a universal fit chassis when not every manufacturer uses the same geometry even though it’s “700 pattern.”

I’ve lost count how many times I’ve seen FB posts showing a gaggle of components someone just bought. Then the very next match they are having feeding issues.

Fact is that many times tuning and such is very common and this is where a competent smith comes in handy.

At the very least, if you buy all the components, pay a competent smith to tune the mags and such to make sure it’s running perfectly. Not to mention, the less people get smiths to build, the faster some will go out of business and then you can’t find anyone not backed up 6 months to do any work for you.

Has the amount of feeding issues gone up, or the rate of feeding issues gone up?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Has the amount of feeding issues gone up, or the rate of feeding issues gone up?

The rate. Exponentially. The amount will always increase with increase in volume of shooters.

Prior to all this plug and play, when you got a rifle, you had it built. It was tested and delivered as a functional package. It wasn’t very common to have an issue as it had already been tuned and tweaked.

Now, many times a shooter receives parts, assembles, makes one range trip where the rifle isn’t run hard, and shows up at matches where they put the rifle through stress and it fails.

Most shooters don’t shoot nearly enough in their down time to test their equipment properly. Not to mention most don’t have the knowledge and/or tools to properly work on things like mag latches and such.

 

[XLR308]

Jesus I almost pissed my crime fighters LOL ....Why in your underwear ? This is the HIDE go full Balls Out

But what would I know ?

Mike R.

Just please don't share any pictures.
And no loose dangly bits around rotating machinery for safety disclaimer.

 

[Newbie2020]

The rate. Exponentially. The amount will always increase with increase in volume of shooters.

Prior to all this plug and play, when you got a rifle, you had it built. It was tested and delivered as a functional package. It wasn’t very common to have an issue as it had already been tuned and tweaked.

Now, many times a shooter receives parts, assembles, makes one range trip where the rifle isn’t run hard, and shows up at matches where they put the rifle through stress and it fails.

Most shooters don’t shoot nearly enough in their down time to test their equipment properly. Not to mention most don’t have the knowledge and/or tools to properly work on things like mag latches and such.

I think the key phrase is “functional package”.

I can buy a lot of high quality “functional pieces”, but kind of like another post on “errors are cumulative”, I imagine so are small variances in tolerances among “700 pattern” components. No fault of the components or manufacturers. I trust my smith to hone those small inconsistencies to create a final “functional package”. Out of expertise, know-how, and his personal pride in craftsmanship.

 

[Tchitcherine]

Look on the brite side, if you build it yourself, if it doesn't perform, you know who to blame

 

[King_beardsly]

 

[Newbie2020]

It’s usually my shooter error regardless.....I probably shouldn’t add self-builder error on top of shooter error—-Especially that 5th round flyer tight group wrecker!

 

[Winny94]

The rate. Exponentially. The amount will always increase with increase in volume of shooters.

Prior to all this plug and play, when you got a rifle, you had it built. It was tested and delivered as a functional package. It wasn’t very common to have an issue as it had already been tuned and tweaked.

Now, many times a shooter receives parts, assembles, makes one range trip where the rifle isn’t run hard, and shows up at matches where they put the rifle through stress and it fails.

Most shooters don’t shoot nearly enough in their down time to test their equipment properly. Not to mention most don’t have the knowledge and/or tools to properly work on things like mag latches and such.

do you have data that backs this up, or are you basing it on anecdotal experiences?

 

[Dthomas3523]

do you have data that backs this up, or are you basing it on anecdotal experiences?

Just stop while you’re ahead. I’m not in the mood for your usual bullshit right now.

Obviously I don’t have any data on this and basing it on my experience at 20+ center and Rimfire matches each year and talking to many others on a daily basis about such things.

 

[hafejd30]

One thing we need to keep in mind to all this as well is “we”, myself included, steer people into building those rifles.

We talk about the cost savings and how easy it is forgetting that some have a great understanding of guns and know where the problem areas are when the gun fails to eject or the AI mags don’t feed reliably and some have no idea how to deal with those issues

If your wanting 1 gun and don’t have the knowledge to work out the kinks I’d just have it built.

I know my gunsmith hates when someone cobbles together a rifle, not knowing what they’re doing, then brings to him to fix all the issues they’re having. He charges a pretty penny to work out those kinks

However, we must remember that many of these “buy or Build” threads start out with the person wanting the best rifle for the least amount of money.

There’s very few things in life that take the terms “best” and “cheapest” and produce a high quality item on the other end

My prefit guns are savage actions. They work well for my uses. Which is just hitting targets at long range on my private shooting range for fun.

My fclass gun is a custom built gun. Because if I’m paying match fees, travel, lodging and loading several hundred rounds for that event I want to have the highest quality item I can

 

[Dthomas3523]

One thing we need to keep in mind to all this as well is “we”, myself included, steer people into building those rifles.

We talk about the cost savings and how easy it is forgetting that some have a great understanding of guns and know where the problem areas are when the gun fails to eject or the AI mags don’t feed reliably and some have no idea how to deal with those issues

If your wanting 1 gun and don’t have the knowledge to work out the kinks I’d just have it built.

I know my gunsmith hates when someone cobbles together a rifle, not knowing what they’re doing, then brings to him to fix all the issues they’re having. He charges a pretty penny to work out those kinks

However, we must remember that many of these “buy or Build” threads start out with the person wanting the best rifle for the least amount of money.

There’s very few things in life that take the terms “best” and “cheapest” and produce a high quality item on the other end

My prefit guns are savage actions. They work well for my uses. Which is just hitting targets at long range on my private shooting range for fun.

My fclass gun is a custom built gun. Because if I’m paying match fees, travel, lodging and loading several hundred rounds for that event I want to have the highest quality item I can

100% agree. I used to steer people that way. But after seeing problem after problem, I’m now pushing for them to at least have their main match rifle set up by a good smith.

 

[Gustav7]

One thing we need to keep in mind to all this as well is “we”, myself included, steer people into building those rifles.

We talk about the cost savings and how easy it is forgetting that some have a great understanding of guns and know where the problem areas are when the gun fails to eject or the AI mags don’t feed reliably and some have no idea how to deal with those issues

If your wanting 1 gun and don’t have the knowledge to work out the kinks I’d just have it built.

I know my gunsmith hates when someone cobbles together a rifle, not knowing what they’re doing, then brings to him to fix all the issues they’re having. He charges a pretty penny to work out those kinks

However, we must remember that many of these “buy or Build” threads start out with the person wanting the best rifle for the least amount of money.

There’s very few things in life that take the terms “best” and “cheapest” and produce a high quality item on the other end

My prefit guns are savage actions. They work well for my uses. Which is just hitting targets at long range on my private shooting range for fun.

My fclass gun is a custom built gun. Because if I’m paying match fees, travel, lodging and loading several hundred rounds for that event I want to have the highest quality item I can

I think its easy to get lost in the sea of "best budget custom....." threads, and they seem to usually get lumped into the same category. And I don't think you or anyone else on this thread is wrong, there are a lot of ambitious guys who either don't understand what they're getting into or simply are ignorant to what this world entails.

On the other end of the spectrum though are guys who either don't have the money, or don't want to allocate that much cash to a single build, but are serious about either competing or having a legitimate rifle.
Its never about one $400 decision. Its about 15-20 decisions that all add up. Those decisions can be the difference between being able to go to those matches or take a legitimate training class, etc. And those decisions weigh heavily on a guys bank account and thought process, which is why I think theres so many of those threads...guys don't wanna make the "wrong" decision.

I can by a shouldered prefit for my Kelblys Atlas Tactical for ~$450... or I can have a gunsmith chamber my $350 blank for another ~$300-350 dollars.

Manners stock for $1000-$1200 or a KRG X-ray for $450

MDT Mags for $75 or Magpul mags for $40

Athlon Midas Tac for $800 or a Kahles for $2800

Area419 hellfire for $165 or a ASR brake for $70

Atlas bipod for $400 or a Harris/Magpul for $100

Its taken me a while to sift through all those threads, but in the end you come out with legit answers, and a build that has good components, but didn't get the nicest things on the market.

Don't even get me started on reloading lol....

 

[Dthomas3523]

I think its easy to get lost in the sea of "best budget custom....." threads, and they seem to usually get lumped into the same category. And I don't think you or anyone else on this thread is wrong, there are a lot of ambitious guys who either don't understand what they're getting into or simply are ignorant to what this world entails.

On the other end of the spectrum though are guys who either don't have the money, or don't want to allocate that much cash to a single build, but are serious about either competing or having a legitimate rifle.
Its never about one $400 decision. Its about 15-20 decisions that all add up. Those decisions can be the difference between being able to go to those matches or take a legitimate training class, etc. And those decisions weigh heavily on a guys bank account and thought process, which is why I think theres so many of those threads...guys don't wanna make the "wrong" decision.

I can by a shouldered prefit for my Kelblys Atlas Tactical for ~$450... or I can have a gunsmith chamber my $350 blank for another ~$300-350 dollars.

Manners stock for $1000-$1200 or a KRG X-ray for $450

MDT Mags for $75 or Magpul mags for $40

Athlon Midas Tac for $800 or a Kahles for $2800

Area419 hellfire for $165 or a ASR brake for $70

Atlas bipod for $400 or a Harris/Magpul for $100

Its taken me a while to sift through all those threads, but in the end you come out with legit answers, and a build that has good components, but didn't get the nicest things on the market.

Don't even get me started on reloading lol....

I’d rather have $1500 trued Remington that is tuned and runs every time than a $3000 impact build that I spent $3k on instead of $4k from a smith that I’m trying to tweak the mags and such on to get running.

 

[Gustav7]

I’d rather have $1500 trued Remington that is tuned and runs every time than a $3000 impact build that I spent $3k on instead of $4k from a smith that I’m trying to tweak the mags and such on to get running.

Oh I can agree with that for sure.

With any hobby, sport, or profession... theres always gonna be the impulsive, overzealous, yet naive "practitioners" ... I can imagine that gets pretty old when you watch that scene play out longer than I have...

 

[MikeRTacOps]

I’d rather have $1500 trued Remington that is tuned and runs every time than a $3000 impact build that I spent $3k on instead of $4k from a smith that I’m trying to tweak the mags and such on to get running.

Probably the Smartest gentleman in this thread...

But what would I know...

Mike R.

 

[drwood96]

As @Dthomas3523 said, the best performing rifle will come from a quality gunsmith. If you have the time and love to tinker then you’ll get a lot of satisfaction from building your own. I have assemble several with great results but every one required tweaking beyond just bolting together plus roughly $700 in proper tools. Yes, other kitchen counter smiths, don’t get mad as we have all seen them on SH and FB, have assemble rifles with good results but a gunsmith will be cheaper and quick then DYI unless you are plan on building several rifles yourself then invest in tools and learning.

For all the people with feeding issues, spend $25 and get the MPA feed lip tool. Once you have your mags tuned up then throw in you range/match bag so you can save someone’s else day.

 

[spife7980]

plus roughly $700 in proper tools.

How the hell do you manage that?
Shouldered set up a barrel vice can be had for 60, action wrench for 60. If you are barrel nut you can add in a 25 lug aligner and a barrel nut wrench for 30. So 120-175 +shipping.

 

[drwood96]

How the hell do you manage that?
Shouldered set up a barrel vice can be had for 60, action wrench for 60. If you are barrel nut you can add in a 25 lug aligner and a barrel nut wrench for 30. So 120-175 +shipping.

You are missing a torque wrench, this is not a common tool for most, and gauges in your list. Plus building a rifle does not stop after you spin the barrel on.

SAC modular vice - $389. Yes, there are cheaper option but this is the best tool for the job.
SAC modular Action wrench - $125. Works for multiple actions.
Ft Lbs torque wrench - $40 for a decent one.
Inch lbs torque wrench -$40
Punch set - $10-$15
Set of Allen and torx wrenches $10-$30
Go and No go gauges - $60. Still highly recommend for installing shouldered prefits for the first time.

Yes, the SAC vice is half of the cost but worth it since I frequently change barrels.

With all part in hand including a chassis and prefit barrel, a smith should charge $200 or $100 per hour to assemble.

 

[spife7980]

Ok, so yeah. You can spend that much on glitzy stuff but you absolutely don’t need to.

 

[Sanwizard]

The smart people on here have beat into me: ACCURACY IS IN THE BARREL!!!

My next build will have a top quality barrel, regardless of action or caliber.

Totally true, but sometimes you can get lucky. I built a bunch of AR's for my kids, and they all shot MOA at least. Then I bought a complete 556 rifle from Anderson MFG, cause I wanted a cheap plinker to practice with. It came with a bull barrel in their RF85 line. The Anderson shoots bugholes. My proof barrel gets maybe .4 or .5 at best. But this Anderson is a laser with the right ammo. Totally blew my concept of more expensive is better, and building is better than buying. Either can work.