Tikka 223 77 smk loads?

[Jmccracken1214]

What are you guys running? I’m using 77 smk and 8208. 23gr had a 1/4” group but the sd and ES were crap. Weird.

have went up to 23.8, but groups have opened up with crap numbers.
Seating them at a COAL of 2.361, which is about .02 off

 

[Gustav7]

In my AR, I was loading 23.5gr....

I'd find what has good numbers and then tune your seating depth

 

[7mMike]

I run 22.9 with my 22 inch bolt gun..

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Shot this morning, shooting .4-.7” groups loaded all the way up to 24.4gr of 8208, but damn SD 12-20 and ES of 36-71... depending on the load.

Do I need to mess with seating depth or what?

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Messed with seating depth and shot some more today. Weird that the first load, had the best numbers but one of the biggest groups. The circled groups were the smallest, all under .4”

 

[FLIGHT762]

I think you found the sweet spot that we all have found. 23.5 of IMR 8208XBR. I know this will be difficult in 2020, but try some other primers to see where your SD / ES goes. Brass can make a difference also, but I'd try the primers first.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

I think you found the sweet spot that we all have found. 23.5 of IMR 8208XBR. I know this will be difficult in 2020, but try some other primers to see where your SD / ES goes. Brass can make a difference also, but I'd try the primers first.

I have 7000 cci 450 lol and no other small primers.

Running lapua brass

 

[Mr Tibbs]

Those CCI 450’s could be a source for your high ES & SD’s, the 223 Remington doesn’t require a magnum primer, nor is IMR 8208 XBR slow enough to require a magnum primer for a complete burn of the powder.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Those CCI 450’s could be a source for your high ES & SD’s, the 223 Remington doesn’t require a magnum primer, nor is IMR 8208 XBR slow enough to require a magnum primer for a complete burn of the powder.

I ran some federal match SRP on a bunch and didn’t really walk away with anything better.

I had a load with the cci450, 23.4gr of 8208, only chronod 5 rounds but I had a 19ES and a 8.1SD, with a group measuring .298. I’m gojng to go back and revisit that. My intentions with this rifle were for a 500 yard max match... after a while, I’m going to get another batch of lapua brass and a box of 80gr smk to try. I have 900 of the 77 smk currently

 

[fyaman43]

Following.

 

[bunsen27]

Seating them at a COAL of 2.361, which is about .02 off

I have 7000 cci 450 lol and no other small primers.

Running lapua brass

Overall a pretty good selection of components. Looking at your data and group photo 23.5gr would be my load choice going forward.

Another seating depth to potentially explore might be slightly under typical AR mag length around 2.248in. Although your groups look quite good already.

As for lowering the SD & ES how consistent are your charge weights and also the neck tension on your brass? I know my SD's & ES's tightened up nicely when I got my A&D balance and started using an expander mandrel after running my brass through the bushing die. YMMV.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Overall a pretty good selection of components. Looking at your data and group photo 23.5gr would be my load choice going forward.

Another seating depth to potentially explore might be slightly under typical AR mag length around 2.248in. Although your groups look quite good already.

As for lowering the SD & ES how consistent are your charge weights and also the neck tension on your brass? I know my SD's & ES's tightened up nicely when I got my A&D balance and started using an expander mandrel after running my brass through the bushing die. YMMV.

I’m using a rcbs chargemaster lite, and my expander mandrel should be here tomorrow so I’m going to load up some more and try. Hoping for a little better numbers with more consistent neck tension

 

[bunsen27]

I’m using a rcbs chargemaster lite, and my expander mandrel should be here tomorrow so I’m going to load up some more and try. Hoping for a little better numbers with more consistent neck tension

Which manderl did you get? I'm too cheap for carbide, however, I've found the 21st Century Black Nitride ones to be be super slick.

Arbors and Mandrels

21st Century Shooting, Reloading products, Reload, reloading ammo, 21st century, twenty first century shooting, shooting, gun arbors, mandrels, reloading, tools for reloading, front rest, f class, bench rest, short handle, arbor press, powder measure, bullet, bullet comparators, die base, shell...

www.xxicsi.com

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Which manderl did you get? I'm too cheap for carbide, however, I've found the 21st Century Black Nitride ones to be be super slick.

Arbors and Mandrels

21st Century Shooting, Reloading products, Reload, reloading ammo, 21st century, twenty first century shooting, shooting, gun arbors, mandrels, reloading, tools for reloading, front rest, f class, bench rest, short handle, arbor press, powder measure, bullet, bullet comparators, die base, shell...

www.xxicsi.com

I did the SS one from them. I have it for my 6.5 and use it right after sizing so the cases are already lubed, haven’t had any issues yet

 

[spife7980]

Those CCI 450’s could be a source for your high ES & SD’s, the 223 Remington doesn’t require a magnum primer, nor is IMR 8208 XBR slow enough to require a magnum primer for a complete burn of the powder.

You are right... but if you start to try to push a standard 400 primer to performance pressures you are much more prone to get primer punctures.

And mine havent gotten any worse since going to a primer that doesnt leave little discs of primer in my firing pin channel. If your spent primers show you any cratering then dont go to 400s.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

You are right... but if you start to try to push a standard 400 primer to performance pressures you are much more prone to get primer punctures.

And mine havent gotten any worse since going to a primer that doesnt leave little discs of primer in my firing pin channel. If your spent primers show you any cratering then dont go to 400s.
View attachment 7444319

I should have noted that with the federal match primers, I was showing signs of pressure issues with them on the same load that the 450 was fine with

 

[Mr Tibbs]

Maybe you gentlemen are shooting a Gas Gun, of some type, cause I’ve never seen or had any problems with any brand of standard Small Rifle Primer in last 25-30 years , Winchester, Federal, CCI, Remington. But then again i am shooting a 26 inch bolt action.

 

[spife7980]

Only the most popular bolt action of all time

And the OPs tikka, and lots of people who shoot the 400s enough. I was just saying that if you do find the primer to be the cause then dont swing too far the other way.

 

[Mr Tibbs]

You are right... but if you start to try to push a standard 400 primer to performance pressures you are much more prone to get primer punctures.

And mine havent gotten any worse since going to a primer that doesnt leave little discs of primer in my firing pin channel. If your spent primers show you any cratering then dont go to 400s.
View attachment 7444319

If you push a standard 400 primer to performance pressures, and the primer gets punctured, maybe the primer isn’t the problem . That would lead me to believe that the pressure’s way to high .

 

[DownhillFromHere]

If you push a standard 400 primer to performance pressures, and the primer gets punctured, maybe the primer isn’t the problem . That would lead me to believe that the pressure’s way to high .

I posted about this some time ago. In my now-gone Tikka T3X Varmint, moderate and even minimum published charges of H335, IMR 4895, and CFE223 produced significantly flattened CCI 400 primers. Never any punctures. So I stopped using them in favor of CCI 450s.

I have not tried the 400s yet in my new Defiance Deviant/Bartlein build. I bought several thousand when I started .223 loading, so I hope I can get at least moderate velocities and good accuracy out of this rifle with the 400s absent a lot of flattening.

 

[Steel head]

You are right... but if you start to try to push a standard 400 primer to performance pressures you are much more prone to get primer punctures.

And mine havent gotten any worse since going to a primer that doesnt leave little discs of primer in my firing pin channel. If your spent primers show you any cratering then dont go to 400s.
View attachment 7444319

As said above I’d stay away from #400 on hotter 223 loads.
I run 8208 with #450’s in LC brass in my ar.
Sd is usually about 10-12.
I can’t say I’ve ever seen wicked extreme spreads with 223 but then I also can’t say I’ve needed them with 223.

 

[Mr Tibbs]

So basically what your saying is that you load your 223 to over pressures (Hotter Loads)and the CCI 400’s can’t handle It, so you have to go to the CCI 450’s for the thicker cup’s .

 

[Steel head]

So basically what your saying is that you load your 223 to over pressures (Hotter Loads)and the CCI 400’s can’t handle It, so you have to go to the CCI 450’s for the thicker cup’s .

Yes.
#400 are great for standard 223 loads which are 55k.
I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of common 223 loads are 60K.

 

[whatsupdoc]

My experience has been that .002 minimum neck tension with 223 otherwise I see high SD numbers.
What kind of seating depth variation do you see in your handloads?
Check 10 or 15 rounds Base to Bullet Ogive dimension.
Check that your case shoulders are bumped back the same.

Your load of 77SMK over 23.0gr 8208 is a known accuracy load so that should not be a problem.

 

[Mr Tibbs]

Yes.
#400 are great for standard 223 loads which are 55k.
I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of common 223 loads are 60K.

55K is the MAXIMUM PRESSURE for the 223 Remington
60K that’s 223 WSM and 22-250, 243 Win pressures,

 

[Jmccracken1214]

My experience has been that .002 minimum neck tension with 223 otherwise I see high SD numbers.
What kind of seating depth variation do you see in your handloads?
Check 10 or 15 rounds Base to Bullet Ogive dimension.
Check that your case shoulders are bumped back the same.

Your load of 77SMK over 23.0gr 8208 is a known accuracy load so that should not be a problem.

at what depth?

 

[Steel head]

55K is the MAXIMUM PRESSURE for the 223 Remington
60K that’s 223 WSM and 22-250, 243 Win pressures,

58K is 5.56.
I’ve seen plenty of loads listed on this forum that are easily more than 5.56 levels.
In a bolt gun I wouldn’t sweat it either.

 

[Mr Tibbs]

Steel head wishing you all the best in your endeavors

 

[Steel head]

Steel head wishing you all the best in your endeavors

I’ll try to not blow myself up!

 

[Jmccracken1214]

I’ll try to not blow myself up!

Has anyone ever blown a 223 up with rifle powder?

 

[DownhillFromHere]

55K is the MAXIMUM PRESSURE for the 223 Remington
60K that’s 223 WSM and 22-250, 243 Win pressures,

And 62,366psi is 5.56 NATO, for which my Defiance Deviant-based rifle is specifically chambered. You gonna tell me flattened primers in published .223 loads are unsafe in it too?

If you take the time to check primers specified for many, if not most, published .223 Remington loads, you will see Remington 7 1/2s, Winchester SRPs, etc. - all of which are have harder, thicker cups than CCI 400s. So it is not surprising that primer flattening would occur with moderate, well-within-pressure-spec loads developed and published with Remington 7 1/2s.

You come into SH less than two months ago, less than a hundred posts, and you're trying to argue reloading safety with people who have been regular, respected contributors for years... seriously? You might want to read more and argue less.

 

[Mr Tibbs]

And 62,366psi is 5.56 NATO, for which my Defiance Deviant-based rifle is specifically chambered. You gonna tell me flattened primers in published .223 loads are unsafe in it too?

If you take the time to check primers specified for many, if not most, published .223 Remington loads, you will see Remington 7 1/2s, Winchester SRPs, etc. - all of which are have harder, thicker cups than CCI 400s. So it is not surprising that primer flattening would occur with moderate, well-within-pressure-spec loads developed and published with Remington 7 1/2s.

You come into SH less than two months ago, less than a hundred posts, and you're trying to argue reloading safety with people who have been regular, respected contributors for years... seriously? You might want to read more and argue less.

i was trying to get an understanding what Steel Head was saying in his post, that’s way there was a dialogue . So one has to have many years in SH and have 100’s of post, before one can ask questions, and exchange knowledge and experience ‘s
In hand-loading ?

 

[spife7980]

400s are for low pressure like 22 hornet. You can make due in a 223 but they are undeniably thinner than other more suitable primers.