I've had my Tikka T3 for more than 3 years now, it has a Whiskey-3 KRG stock and Khales 624i scope on it. It probably has around 200 rounds through it. Every time I would go to my favorite range I would shoot the farthest target 6 or 8 inch steel plate at 600 yards cold bore and its always a hit more often than not (I've only used factory ammo Federal FGMM 308 SMK 168 grains). And if its a miss I would hit it on my 2nd shot upon adjustment. Last week, I went through my usual routine with the 600 yards target and missed the target by .5 mils or more. I double checked my ballistic calculator and and it did say I needed 4.5 mils adjustment for my intended target at 600 yards. I finally hit the target on my 8th shot with a 5.1 mils adjustment. Long story short it was a bad shooting day that I decided to go home and thinker about what could have gone wrong. I checked the scope and mounts and re-tighten it as spec. I went back to the range the next day and zeroed the gun and sure enough it was .5 mils low on my original zero at 100 yards. With all screws being tight and everything, do I need to check my zero every now and then? Do you guys think something is wrong with the scope (or maybe the guy behind the gun). The only only I haven't done is track the scope. How often do you guys check your zero?
- Thread starter cover_six
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I'll usually take 3 shots at 100 every time iIshoot to verify. I don't know if that's right, but it that's what I do. So far I haven't been off and maybe it's not necessary, but it's a sanity check for me. I figure 3 rounds at a 100 is worth not chasing rounds out further.
Thanks mate! I used to do that back then, at least shoot once or twice to confirm my zero at 100 yards. But ever since the ammo shortages and price hikes the last couple of years now I tried to save my shots (I'm being cheap!). lol
Big temp swing from last time you shot?
I can shoot to 400yds almost year round, with consistent data. I can shoot 800+ only in the winter and I was always disappointed by how much more elevation I needed than what Strelok told me. Until the day I realized how much inputting a 50+ degree temp change affected things. Felt pretty stupid for a while after that..
I can shoot to 400yds almost year round, with consistent data. I can shoot 800+ only in the winter and I was always disappointed by how much more elevation I needed than what Strelok told me. Until the day I realized how much inputting a 50+ degree temp change affected things. Felt pretty stupid for a while after that..
There was probably about 15 degrees (cooler) difference from the last time I shot. But wouldn't my ballistic calculator take that into account?
I always do that when I used to do pistol Steel Challenge and IDPA. I've always wanted to try the PRS match but haven't really gotten into it. I even had SAC build me a custom 6.5 creedmore with a Defiance action. Even that rifle haven't been zero verified since the last time which was almost 2 years now. Although I did hit those 6 inch steel plates at 600 yards last time with no issues thoug.
I only bring the rifle to the range maybe once a month or two. I haven't really run the rifle through the rigors of any competition/match. And that's why I was baffled that I lost my original zero.
I usually shoot 2-3 rounds before a match to get the pre match jitters out, and chrono my ammo for the current temp.
I feel it's hard to build an accurate dope if your not shooting a cold bore registration and verifying zero at each range trip. In the age of technology everyone has become too reliant on our gadgets. Computers and calculators are great but in my opinion nothing beats raw, real data collected over varying conditions with YOUR rifle.
Yes math is math but math/ballistic calcs, do not take into consideration the placement of the sun or light and shadow at the target, etc.
I put it in the same category of scopes and red dots, yeah they make life easy and we all love them but there is a reason why the Marine Corp taught me to use steel sights at distances most would never consider shooting without glass. Learn your rifle, learn your dope, ditch the gadgets learn/relearn the basics.
You'll be amazed at how quickly you learn to do without the range finder, calculator, kestrel etc.
I mean what would you do during a zombie apocalypse? (Otherwise known as the Biden Administration
lol)
Nothing beats practice and preparation combined with a little skill and Kentucky windage.
Just my. 02¢
Yes math is math but math/ballistic calcs, do not take into consideration the placement of the sun or light and shadow at the target, etc.
I put it in the same category of scopes and red dots, yeah they make life easy and we all love them but there is a reason why the Marine Corp taught me to use steel sights at distances most would never consider shooting without glass. Learn your rifle, learn your dope, ditch the gadgets learn/relearn the basics.
You'll be amazed at how quickly you learn to do without the range finder, calculator, kestrel etc.
I mean what would you do during a zombie apocalypse? (Otherwise known as the Biden Administration
lol) Nothing beats practice and preparation combined with a little skill and Kentucky windage.
Just my. 02¢
Different lot of ammo? I have seen some wild swings between lots of factory ammo before. A big velocity change can have the bullet leaving the muzzle off of an accuracy node. This is one reason why I decided to go to hand loads. I can make the same recipe every time.
1. Always check zero with new lot of ammo
2. Shooting 1 or 2 or 3 rounds to confirm zero at 100 may actually save you ammo at distance. If zero is off it needs corrected.
3. Same ammo same shooter relatively same atmosphere should not change zero so if all of those are the same first check your self then your gear.
4. POI change happens more with shooter. So you are really checking yourself also.
5. Don't chase .1 zero
ETA
This is mainly for newer shooter as a thought.
Once I zero my gun from prone bipod and rear bag. (Zero the way you shoot, with the gear you use constantly) i will typically confirm my zero and practice building position each time I shoot.
1. Get into prone and dry fire
2. Break position including gun movement and repeat movement and breaking position while dry fire.
3. My zero is confirmed with me getting up and breaking position and moving the gun.
This allows me to basically zero to my average position. Position changes poi if not correct so a zero one day and then another day may be different because of body position. Not the gear.
2. Shooting 1 or 2 or 3 rounds to confirm zero at 100 may actually save you ammo at distance. If zero is off it needs corrected.
3. Same ammo same shooter relatively same atmosphere should not change zero so if all of those are the same first check your self then your gear.
4. POI change happens more with shooter. So you are really checking yourself also.
5. Don't chase .1 zero
ETA
This is mainly for newer shooter as a thought.
Once I zero my gun from prone bipod and rear bag. (Zero the way you shoot, with the gear you use constantly) i will typically confirm my zero and practice building position each time I shoot.
1. Get into prone and dry fire
2. Break position including gun movement and repeat movement and breaking position while dry fire.
3. My zero is confirmed with me getting up and breaking position and moving the gun.
This allows me to basically zero to my average position. Position changes poi if not correct so a zero one day and then another day may be different because of body position. Not the gear.
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I always check zero with dot tests at 100; helps with data collection.
5-10 rounds, usually one shot per target. I buy those 1/2 or 1/4 circle labels and shoot that to confirm zero over time.
Once I kick out to longer ranges, +300 yards, I'll slap on my magneto speed for 3-5 rounds and shoot for muzzle velocity and practice those 5 shots to test my recoil management/shot spotting.
Then I go on with what I plan on doing for the day.
S.Kay would be proud of how much data I've gotten since my course at KM.
5-10 rounds, usually one shot per target. I buy those 1/2 or 1/4 circle labels and shoot that to confirm zero over time.
Once I kick out to longer ranges, +300 yards, I'll slap on my magneto speed for 3-5 rounds and shoot for muzzle velocity and practice those 5 shots to test my recoil management/shot spotting.
Then I go on with what I plan on doing for the day.
S.Kay would be proud of how much data I've gotten since my course at KM.
As above, any new ammo, and even the same ammo from a different lot, or new environmentals get a zero check dot drill usually with a chrono too.
I try to shoot ammo by same lot numbers, with enough to zero/chrono with remainder for the match, or, load enough for the match plus chrono/zero checks.
The 2 days matches I've shot give you an early pre-match zero check, but our 1 day matches usually don't, so I try to shoot 3-5 for 100y zero the day before if needed.
But, some ammo case lots are so good you don't even have to touch the rifle between matches except to dry fire..., but if you change something on your rifle at all, like OP torqueing the scope rings, you got to check your zero!
I try to shoot ammo by same lot numbers, with enough to zero/chrono with remainder for the match, or, load enough for the match plus chrono/zero checks.
The 2 days matches I've shot give you an early pre-match zero check, but our 1 day matches usually don't, so I try to shoot 3-5 for 100y zero the day before if needed.
But, some ammo case lots are so good you don't even have to touch the rifle between matches except to dry fire..., but if you change something on your rifle at all, like OP torqueing the scope rings, you got to check your zero!
I always confirm zero when I go out to shoot. it' good process, ensure confidence, and reduces waste! my $0.02
I almost always check it since it can’t hurt. With my TL3 6.5creed build, I rarely see a shift and if I do it is maybe .2 at the most. With my savage 6.5creed I would see .2-.3 shifts pretty frequently. I shot a lot more factory ammo out of that though so that could be the cause. Also, the base on the savage needs bedded and is probably under some preload, so that isn’t helping maintain zero.
I always double-check my zero if it's possible for me to do so - you spend 3 rounds to ensure peace of mind for the next 60-70 you'll be shooting that day.
It's also particularly handy if you make a record of your zero shift and the current atmospherics (density altitude). In Colorado we can sometime start a match with a zero check at 15-20 degrees and end up shooting in 60-70 degree weather by the afternoon once the sun comes out. That 40+ degree temperature swing does change your zero by a couple tenths in many cases, not enough to matter when shooting close targets but enough to be significant on your further targets especially when doing positional shooting (your shot broke when you were on the top third of the target, but whoops your zero is a little high now because it warmed up so much so you missed).
It can also be kind of a fun game to guess what the zero shift will be, once you have some data accumulated. Measure the current atmospherics, compare to the atmospherics from the last time you zeroed, and see if you can predict the change.
It's also particularly handy if you make a record of your zero shift and the current atmospherics (density altitude). In Colorado we can sometime start a match with a zero check at 15-20 degrees and end up shooting in 60-70 degree weather by the afternoon once the sun comes out. That 40+ degree temperature swing does change your zero by a couple tenths in many cases, not enough to matter when shooting close targets but enough to be significant on your further targets especially when doing positional shooting (your shot broke when you were on the top third of the target, but whoops your zero is a little high now because it warmed up so much so you missed).
It can also be kind of a fun game to guess what the zero shift will be, once you have some data accumulated. Measure the current atmospherics, compare to the atmospherics from the last time you zeroed, and see if you can predict the change.
I check about once a month if needed. If when I am out shooting at range and my dope works and point of aim is good no reason to check them I go longer.
You've shot 200 rounds through this rifle in three years?
I'm going to bet your ability to build a shooting position and manage recoil isn't consistent enough to blame the rifle or anything else for your misses.
I check zero on my rifles after I clean them which is about every 300rds. Other than that I'll only really check zero if I have to change lots of powder (or if I shot factory ammo I'd check when changing lots of ammo) or if something seems really off with regards to poa=poi.
Thanks for the info bro, I understand if the temp difference is that much but i live in Socal. There was probably 15 degrees (cooler) temp difference when I last shot the rifle. And I double checked my data in my Strelok app and it kept giving me the same elevation adjustment. I just couldn't believe there was + .5 or .6 when I finally hit the target. I guess I should rephrase my question to "is it normal to lose your original zero?" (with the all the screws and mounts being tight).
You might be right brotha, I'm in a slow learning process with this rifle going through motion of the bolt action and all. But given that, how was it I was able to shoot that same target with consistency before. Oh and I do have other custom rifles that I bring to the range with me and that's why most of my guns have low round count.
I agree, I think I need to start recording all my data. And this time, I would put in in a notebook instead of my note app on the phone.
Never thought of that bro. As I mentioned, I only use factory ammo and I trusted them that all their products would be the same (which was stupid really, lol). I may have to check and compare the lot numbers of those ammo. Unfortunately, I don't have a chrono yet. But thanks for the info.
Thanks for the info brotha, specially with the lot number (I've never thought of putting that into consideration before). At first, I thought it was the shooter too so I changed into my custom 6.5 creedmore and first 3 shots were all impact. And yeah, I would've been ok with +/- .1 or.2 but with a .6 difference that day I figured that was too much.
Good info! I've never really put that into consideration before (different lot number). Thank you! I started putting together my reloading equipment, hopefully I'll get 'em started soon.
Good info bro, thank you. To be honest, out of frustration I did ditched my app and finally hit target using Kentucky windage on the 8th shot.I feel it's hard to build an accurate dope if your not shooting a cold bore registration and verifying zero at each range trip. In the age of technology everyone has become too reliant on our gadgets. Computers and calculators are great but in my opinion nothing beats raw, real data collected over varying conditions with YOUR rifle.
Yes math is math but math/ballistic calcs, do not take into consideration the placement of the sun or light and shadow at the target, etc.
I put it in the same category of scopes and red dots, yeah they make life easy and we all love them but there is a reason why the Marine Corp taught me to use steel sights at distances most would never consider shooting without glass. Learn your rifle, learn your dope, ditch the gadgets learn/relearn the basics.
You'll be amazed at how quickly you learn to do without the range finder, calculator, kestrel etc.
I mean what would you do during a zombie apocalypse? (Otherwise known as the Biden Administration
Nothing beats practice and preparation combined with a little skill and Kentucky windage.
Just my. 02¢
I'll throw this out there since it happened to me....
Head pressure on the stock different from before? I had a 1.5 moa vertical shift between resting my melon on the stock (chipmunk cheeks), and barely touching (for reference only).
Hope you get it figured out.
Head pressure on the stock different from before? I had a 1.5 moa vertical shift between resting my melon on the stock (chipmunk cheeks), and barely touching (for reference only).
Hope you get it figured out.
To the OP statement that he is shooting multiple rifles on a range trip. There's nothing wrong with that.
Yes zeroes can change. Its always 1 of 3 things though.
1. Physical mechanical gear problem
2. Ammunition and environmental change
3. Shooter input / inconsistencies
While many of of have many rifles i think the trend here is to focus on a particular rifle or style when questioning zero.
If I pull out a rifle I only have 200rnds on in 3 yrs I would not trust it to be 100%
People can take 3 shots at 100 at the beginning a session as checking themselves or their gear. Different but the same.
Yes zeroes can change. Its always 1 of 3 things though.
1. Physical mechanical gear problem
2. Ammunition and environmental change
3. Shooter input / inconsistencies
While many of of have many rifles i think the trend here is to focus on a particular rifle or style when questioning zero.
If I pull out a rifle I only have 200rnds on in 3 yrs I would not trust it to be 100%
People can take 3 shots at 100 at the beginning a session as checking themselves or their gear. Different but the same.
One of the biggest issues I see, people don’t actually have a real zero.
Due to shooter error or things like lighting/mirage, it’s always moving (assuming no system movement like a non bedded action).
I prefer using what I consider a “progressive zero.” Once my initial zero, each range trip I will do multiple single shot strings at 1” dots.
IMO, if you can’t pick up your rifle and hit a 1” dot at 100yds from any position, you’re either not actually zero’d or don’t know your rifle.
Due to shooter error or things like lighting/mirage, it’s always moving (assuming no system movement like a non bedded action).
I prefer using what I consider a “progressive zero.” Once my initial zero, each range trip I will do multiple single shot strings at 1” dots.
IMO, if you can’t pick up your rifle and hit a 1” dot at 100yds from any position, you’re either not actually zero’d or don’t know your rifle.
Anytime that a zero check is available pre match I always check zero. The last match I shot was the only time I have ever needed to make an adjustment. Glad I did!
Of course I dropped several hundred feet in altitude and the temp was unseasonably warm.
Of course I dropped several hundred feet in altitude and the temp was unseasonably warm.
This goes to not chasing a zero and what so many guys miss... alot of variables ..... so its an average zero over time that I want and wish people would use vs "a click a day"
I think you and I are trying to convince to use a zero that makes sense. Could it be the "SHZ"???
This goes to not chasing a zero and what so many guys miss... alot of variables ..... so its an average zero over time that I want and wish people would use vs "a click a day"
I think you and I are trying to convince to use a zero that makes sense. Could it be the "SHZ"???
My issue is that I pull my barrels to clean them and also take optic off. I’m still within a couple tenths when I put it all back together.
I may start leaving optic on when pulling barrel.
I'm assuming the ammo was from the same lot. As mentioned earlier, temperature. But, not just temperature affecting bullet trajectory, but the rifle and scope components also. Metal expands and contracts with temperature change. Aluminum much more than steel. In another life, I used to be a precision machinist. I could change the runout on a long pump shaft with nothing but a hair dryer.
Not for centerfire.
I get what you're saying, but I don't know how you could justify confirming a zero at 50m with a centerfire rifle...
It’ll cost you a lot more by not confirming zero.
Honestly with quality equipment these days I don't know how much it matters in the end to completely disassemble and reassemble a rifle like that. I did that once when fate (and FedEx) intervened and I didn't have a new rifle ready for a match after having already disassembled the old rifle. Put my Impact 6BR back together the night before the match, and left the scope set to my previous "stock zero" for that gun. My stock zero is just from an indoor range where I know there's no wind, when the DA is at 6500ft based on ambient pressure (it's temp/humidity controlled and 6500ft is about the average based on pressure fluctuations).
I was expecting to have to track it down somewhere on the edges of the paper, but I was pleasantly surprised. It was two tenths low and one tenth right, which was completely explainable by the atmospheric changes and the 4-6mph cross breeze that morning. I'm sure there would be a couple tenths here and there if I was regularly disassembling and reassembling the way you do, but my experience was a positive one.
The scope was in a Spuhr mount then, which probably helped for scope mounting. I eventually did switch to Hawkins Precision rings, just because I got tired of replacing the Torx screws on the Spuhr when I'd inevitably beat them up from constantly swapping between rifles (the rings just use a half-inch hex nut). The Spuhr mount felt more secure in terms of being able to move between guns without shifting, but the rings have been more convenient for me and I haven't noticed any real in repeatability between mountings.
I just have a couple dedicated notes in my phone, simply because I always have my phone with me when I'm shooting. My phone is more durable and weatherproof than most notebooks, doesn't need a pencil/pen with lead/ink that can run out or refuse to cooperate, and I already have a battery with a cable in my pack in case the phone dies (which is also handy for when I bring my LabRadar to the range).
One phone note just tells me where I am zeroed in the scope, relative to the "stock zero" of my main match rifle. If I adjust the zero up one tenth I add to the running total in that note, if I adjust down by a tenth I subtract from the running total. I'll double-check that my stock zero is correct whenever I go to the indoor range, and this mostly just helps me when I switch my scope between multiple rifles (my rimfire zero is 1.1 MRAD off from my centerfire zero, for example).
The second phone note just has all of my zero adjustments from every time I've gone shooting with my rifle, relative to stock zero, ordered by density altitude. I zero my rifle at the start of the day, check the DA, then just record both of those measurements. Over time you build up enough measurements that it becomes pretty easy to guess your zero shift if you measure the DA first, because you consult the chart and see where a similar DA's zero was recorded.
^ This
Building on #3, It seemed I always had to tweak my zero before matches/practice. I bedded my action in the chassis and no longer have any zero shift with same bullet/powder lot.
I zero and chronograph the day of every match or the day before.
Had 1 match last year where I decided to skip that step..turned out I had screwed up my zero from messing around the week before and had .7mil of right wind dialed (turret showed 0). Cost me 4 stages worth of points.
Had 1 match last year where I decided to skip that step..turned out I had screwed up my zero from messing around the week before and had .7mil of right wind dialed (turret showed 0). Cost me 4 stages worth of points.
It's less about zeroing and more about what should be happening.
I've seen guys rezero every fucking range trip. If thats your process, you're basically painting yourself in the corner of having to continue it.
Ill go out and shoot 3 shot groups to begin. Can be at any range really; but if at 100, I'm less interested in where it went and more interested in where it went vs where it SHOULD have gone based on my zero, factored in bullet velocity, cold bore, suppressor/no suppressor and current enviromentals versus zero'd enviromentals.
This process not only checks the zero, but puts your data and what you have collected/what you know together as well at the same time.
I've seen guys rezero every fucking range trip. If thats your process, you're basically painting yourself in the corner of having to continue it.
Ill go out and shoot 3 shot groups to begin. Can be at any range really; but if at 100, I'm less interested in where it went and more interested in where it went vs where it SHOULD have gone based on my zero, factored in bullet velocity, cold bore, suppressor/no suppressor and current enviromentals versus zero'd enviromentals.
This process not only checks the zero, but puts your data and what you have collected/what you know together as well at the same time.
Ammunition temperature can make a significant difference to required elevation via muzzle velocity change. I don't recall seeing any reviews of ballistic calculators that factor that in environmental conditions.
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