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5.56 Grouping Question

T

TheSapperGoesBoom

Private
Minuteman
Feb 5, 2019
60
27
#1
Yesterday I took my LaRue OBR 5.56 plinking, there was a strong headwind, I had 55gr Hornady Frontier 5.56 loaded, and my rifle that can shoot half an MOA at closer distances put up a 4 inch group at 200 yards. This was frustrating, so I did a 3 shot group with my nephew's Savage MSR and got another 4 inch group. I have a few questions. Could this be because of bullet over-stabilization? Both rifles were 1/8 twist. Or can a strong headwind throw your groups off? Are semi-automatics that much worse than bolt actions? I had both rifles stabilized on some sturdy shooting bags. I was consistently one of best shots during my time in the service, so I don't want to believe it was a fundamentals issue at a measly 200 yards, though my fundamentals have laxed a bit through honing my shooting.
 
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#2
I wouldn't worry about 1 bad day shooting groups @ 200 yards.
If it persists I'd examine my shooting techniques and possibly getting an eye exam. Similar thing happened to me. My vision had significantly changed and didn't notice it until I tried shooting at longer distances than 100 yards. Although my 100 year groups weren't as good as they had been either. Ironically the gun I first noticed on was a 308 PredatOBR.
 
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#3
samnev said:
I wouldn't worry about 1 bad day shooting groups @ 200 yards.
If it persists I'd examine my shooting techniques and possibly getting an eye exam. Similar thing happened to me. My vision had significantly changed and didn't notice it until I tried shooting at longer distances than 100 yards. Although my 100 year groups weren't as good as they had been either. Ironically the gun I first noticed on was a 308 PredatOBR.
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When I read your reply about eyesight I immediately realized that we couldn't see the actual bullseye on the target at 200 yards also so every shot was a "best guess" kinda thing. Now I'm thinking that was probably the issue! So thanks for that. I know shooting tiny human silhouettes at Ft. Leonard Wood at 300 yards with iron signts, you depend on your ability to actually see the silhouette and place it in the middle of the front sight post. Never seen a front sight post look so massive before 🤣

Thanks for the reply, I think ya really helped ease my mind here.
 
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#4
Headwinds can be really tricky, because they usually move around at least a little bit. 5 degrees plus or minus is something many people don't really pay attention to (or could even notice if they're not looking for it), and in a crosswind it won't make that big of a difference.

In a headwind, especially a strong one, it can really open things up with slight variation. Plug it into the ballistic calculator, +/- 5 degrees at 20 mph creates about a +/- 1" variation in POI at 200 yards with a 55gr 223. Same thing happens with tailwinds.
 
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#5
Oh really? Heck I didn't know that. I got Strelok but never noticed what you're saying here. Thanks a ton for the wisdom, especially on headwind ballistics. You've likely prevented a few accuracy-nazi related headaches from now until the day I die, hah!
 
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#7
TonyTheTiger said:
Sounds like the groups one could expect from blaster grade ammo.
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My gun shoots this ammo exceedingly well. Half an MOA most days, LaRue only boasts "sub-MOA" not half. Because we all know LaRue would boast half-MOA if their guns were deemed worthy of that title. That's not the problem, the Hornady's are working synergistically with the gun here.
 
#8
TonyTheTiger said:
Sounds like the groups one could expect from blaster grade ammo.
Click to expand...

My thoughts as well. I'm surprised to hear op say he gets good groups with that hot dirty trash ammo.

I really want to see a 4x5 or 5x5 target with all these people claiming half moa with factory trash ammo like frontier, pmc, wolf gold, etc. Why would anyone pay for match ammo.
 
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#9
With a NM AR I'd say Wolf Gold is about 2 MOA. I've never shot it off a rest but it holds a 10 ring at 100 yards. Scoring ring is 1.75 inches, add a bullet diameter makes a 2 MOA group with a couple of 8's that could be me or the ammo.

One of these days I'll try it at 200 and 300 yards. Probably next spring since we only have one more across the course match this year.
 
#10
Clayman said:
My thoughts as well. I'm surprised to hear op say he gets good groups with that hot dirty trash ammo.

I really want to see a 4x5 or 5x5 target with all these people claiming half moa with factory trash ammo like frontier, pmc, wolf gold, etc. Why would anyone pay for match ammo.
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Pricepoint has no true bearing on accuracy. The Mosin Nagant is a garbage rifle for example...that is unless of course you're using the military surplus round it was designed to shoot. I would have been shooting with green tips the other day because they are definitely towards the top of what my LaRue shoots best, but they have corrosive primers so I save them for special occasions.

Now if you wanna talk about other calibers and guns besides my LaRue paired with Hornady Frontier, you're right. Take my favorite gun, my 6.5CM. If I put anything less than match grade ammo in that thing, it is hot garbage. But you'll find military surplus rounds are a lot better than you think (depending on a few things), as they were developed with a blank check budget to shoot as accurately as humanly possible out of the gun they were designed for. And that's coming from someone who served and knows damn well how and why the term "military grade" doesn't convey the quality that most civilians think it does.
 
#11
twothe said:
Pricepoint has no true bearing on accuracy. The Mosin Nagant is a garbage rifle for example...that is unless of course you're using the military surplus round it was designed to shoot. I would have been shooting with green tips the other day because they are definitely towards the top of what my LaRue shoots best, but they have corrosive primers so I save them for special occasions.

Now if you wanna talk about other calibers and guns besides my LaRue paired with Hornady Frontier, you're right. Take my favorite gun, my 6.5CM. If I put anything less than match grade ammo in that thing, it is hot garbage. But you'll find military surplus rounds are a lot better than you think (depending on a few things), as they were developed with a blank check budget to shoot as accurately as humanly possible out of the gun they were designed for. And that's coming from someone who served and knows damn well how and why the term "military grade" doesn't convey the quality that most civilians think it does.
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If you are saying the 2-3+ moa m855 ammo is shooting .5 moa out of your rifle I'd love to see that.

From my own experience, others I've seen and excellent accuracy review/reports from people like @Molon I take all claims of m193, m855, etc ammo doing sub moa this or that with serious doubt.

People spend a lot of time in load development with match bullets like the 55 blitzkings, 69 smk's, etc to get a .5 moa (3x10 or 5x5) in semi auto.
 
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#13
Clayman said:
If you are saying the 2-3+ moa m855 ammo is shooting .5 moa out of your rifle I'd love to see that.

From my own experience, others I've seen and excellent accuracy review/reports from people like @Molon I take all claims of m193, m855, etc ammo doing sub moa this or that with serious doubt.

People spend a lot of time getting in load development with match bullets like the 55 blitzkings, 69 smk's, etc to get a .5 moa (3x10 or 5x5) in semi auto.
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Well alright then, if I remember next time I go out I'll get some pics. But that might be a while. And there's no guarantee it'll be a 0.5 MOA day--it's not every day or every volley. I hit 0.5 or close sometimes. 0.8 is probably what I shoot most often so I shoulda prefaced with that. But I've gotten Frontier ammo for just over 20 cents a shot before covid, I ain't gonna argue with those results, especially for plinking. But yeah I'm well aware of the crap nature of Wolf ammo, TulAmmo, and all those others. It's not a stretch to think the name Hornady alone would leave them in the dirt just off of sheer merit.
 
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#14
twothe said:
My gun shoots this ammo exceedingly well. Half an MOA most days,
Click to expand...

anim_lol-1959488.gif


...
 
#16
twothe said:
Pricepoint has no true bearing on accuracy. . . I would have been shooting with green tips the other day because they are definitely towards the top of what my LaRue shoots best, but they have corrosive primers . . .

. . . you'll find military surplus rounds are a lot better than you think (depending on a few things), as they were developed with a blank check budget to shoot as accurately as humanly possible out of the gun they were designed for . . .
Click to expand...

Nobody can be this fucking stupid, so he must be trolling.


...
 
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#17
hlee said:
M855 is not primed with corrosive primers.
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Huh, ya know IDK how I came to the conclusion they were, but it appears you are right. I know the first box of ammo I ever bought after I got my LaRue was M855, but then sometime after that something led me to believe the primers were corrosive so I reduced my gun's intake of M855. Roger that, good to know.
Molon said:
Nobody can be this fucking stupid, so he must be stupid
Click to expand...

Molon said:

First it was 0.5 MOA "most days." Now it's 0.5 MOA "or close sometimes." You can't even keep your own BS straight.

...
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Oh shut up you whiney-ass crybaby. You have zero tact in the face of opposing viewpoints, it's likely you voted for Biden. You're splitting hairs with a fine tooth comb.
 
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#19
Seriously .... M855 is MOA only with a LOT of luck in its corner.... and even then a random chance occurrence.

And 3 round groups do not show what an ammo is capable of... consider shooting minimum 5rd groups, and preferred a 10rd group.

If the M855 bullet was capable of routine , consistent MOA groups... you would see far less .224 varmint and match bullets in use.

So... you can see the skepticism from us, in your accuracy claim.

Even if you look at the accuracy requirements / specs from Uncle Sugar... you will see it is pretty bad precision wise.. It is a bulk loaded round, meant to produce acceptable combat groups from a broad range of MilSpec type firearms.

The same can be said about the M193 55gr FMJ bullet.

As for the poor groupings in a strong headwind... the Barrels Twist rate would have less bearing on the group then the ammo used.
As an example... Molon has proven that .

I would suspect the head wind... or an off day at the bench... we all have an off day every once in a while.
 
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#21
While I agree with much of what you said here, I know I could hit sub-MOA with M855 on three round groups more than just a lucky once. Now that may not hold up at longer distances and larger groups, but I bet at 50-100 it will. I actually just ordered some scatter grids so we'll see. I'll even drop a 10 round group, and then I imagine I'll see more of what you've been talking about.

But thank you, this is the type of responses I was looking for. I may consider handloading 5.56 if I find markedly better consistency with match grade. It's just that up close I'm skeptical that I will, however. My LaRue turns heads at 100 yard ranges and shocks the hell out of me most days too.
Dustyplyr said:
Also your 0.5 moa or 0.8 whatever it is you said was at closer range. What range. 100yds, 50, 35?
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That's what I was saying in my last post. These are 3 round groups at 50 or 100. And yes I know that 0.5 MOA is a quarter inch at 50. I totally suspected and have often wondered if distance will erase my ability to do this, as I've only shot at gongs at 300+ which was kinda why I started this thread, but hoped I'd get a different answer that lets me keep my cheap ammos that have been performing well up close.

The gong at 300 yards is 8 inches and I can drop a 30 round mag into it. But that doesn't tell me everything because the gong is too big. So I've never really known for sure what my distance performance is like. I was happy knowing I could essentially put one in someone's head for 20 cents up to now.
 
#22
Clayman said:
I really want to see a 4x5 or 5x5 target with all these people claiming half moa with factory trash ammo like frontier, pmc, wolf gold, etc. Why would anyone pay for match ammo.
Click to expand...
I used to be that guy. When I first bought an AR I shot a bunch of amazing 3 shot groups at 50 yards with garbage ammo. Reality hurt a bit once I started shooting more and further.
 
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#23
TonyTheTiger said:
I used to be that guy. When I first bought an AR I shot a bunch of amazing 3 shot groups at 50 yards with garbage ammo. Reality hurt a bit once I started shooting more and further.
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Roger that, I get it. I always suspected that might be the case, I think subconsciously I didn't want to know the answer though. I suppose I should have started off by mentioning I would be considered a precision noob if even that. I do not have the money to master it yet, not till my truck and pontoon are paid off. But in the meantime I do what I can with what I can and I know it's something I can become very adept at once I have the resources. I will likely have to buy a new homestead at some point too, with longer stretches of land, because virtually no one else in this state shares my enthusiasm for it. Side note, long distance rifle fire sales are hot in Minnesota 🤣
 
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#24
twothe said:
Roger that, I get it. I always suspected that might be the case, I think subconsciously I didn't want to know the answer though. I suppose I should have started off by mentioning I would be considered a precision noob if even that. I do not have the money to master it yet, not till my truck and pontoon are paid off. But in the meantime I do what I can with what I can and I know it's something I can become very adept at once I have the resources. I will likely have to buy a new homestead at some point too, with longer stretches of land, because virtually no one else in this state shares my enthusiasm for it. Side note, long distance rifle fire sales are hot in Minnesota 🤣
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If you are in MN there is actually a nice sized long range community
 
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#29
Dustyplyr said:
In from Fargo. But you are closeishvto one of the places that holds the prs style matches in MN. Rush lake range. MNPR is the Facebook group that they announce matches and such on
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Oh hell! Tf have I been waiting for? I had no idea there was a 1200 yard range in NYM or anywhere near me. I'll be buying a new scope f*ckin tomorrow for the 6.5 then. That's actually closer than the 300+ yard range I go to, which is my unlces house, but he usually feeds me whiskey so I haven't really been in the market for a new spot 🤣

Thanks man, you've done me a great service!
 
#30
twothe said:
Oh hell! Tf have I been waiting for? I had no idea there was a 1200 yard range in NYM or anywhere near me. I'll be buying a new scope f*ckin tomorrow for the 6.5 then. That's actually closer than the 300+ yard range I go to, which is my unlces house, but he usually feeds me whiskey so I haven't really been in the market for a new spot 🤣

Thanks man, you've done me a great service!
Click to expand...
Rush lake range is great and Aaron who owns it is a great dude.
 
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#34
samnev said:
I wouldn't worry about 1 bad day shooting groups @ 200 yards.
If it persists I'd examine my shooting techniques and possibly getting an eye exam. Similar thing happened to me. My vision had significantly changed and didn't notice it until I tried shooting at longer distances than 100 yards. Although my 100 year groups weren't as good as they had been either. Ironically the gun I first noticed on was a 308 PredatOBR.
Click to expand...
I’m glad this was a discussion before the shitty ammo debate came up. My vision started changing and I had to learn to shoot (among other things) a little differently as a result. I’ve learned to utilize bifocals and like hearing I’m not alone. I’m always interested in how people are adapting to this.
 
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#36
When I did a pull-down test of M-855, the powder charges were the most consistent of any military round I had so tested. It's not the charge weight that makes the M-855 round inconsistent, it's those multipart bullets.

Once Speer brings its 62 grain Gold Dots back onto the market, I will be doing some swap outs and accuracy testing.

Greg
 
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#39
OP - Congrats on your LaRue rifle. I own a number of LaRue uppers and have always been very pleased with the accuracy I've been able to achieve. However, I had the same reaction as other posters when I saw you talking about your rifle "liking" Frontier and M855. Never shot Frontier ammo, but I've always thought of it as very cheap plinking ammo (although I just saw some of the Hornady Frontier ammo is considered match ammo, so maybe that's what you're shooting). I do own some M855 but don't shoot it much and from an accuracy standpoint it is generally the least accurate ammo I put through my rifles. I find Wolf Gold and IMI XM193 to be consistently better and generally cheaper to boot. So yeah, I too was a little surprised by claims of sub MOA accuracy with these two rounds.

Also, don't think accuracy is simply a question of your gun "liking" that particular load, regardless of cost. While some guns will like certain match ammo better than others because of bullet weight, seating depth of bullet, powder charge, etc., cheap ammo is cheap for a reason and will never shoot as well as more expensive match ammo. That's because the extra money you're spending is buying you quality components and consistency in the manufacturing process, which will translate to greater accuracy.

Finally, you owe it to yourself to see what your gun will do with a variety of different match ammo. I've gotten some very good results with IMI 77 gr. Razorcore, which is not outrageously expensive and is generally available. I have no doubt FGMM would also shoot well, although I've never shot their 5.56/.223 version of this (.308 is great). I think Hornady also has a 68 gr. match load that shoots very well in some guns - is that what you were using? And definitely try more long range shooting. Personally, if I'm shooting at 50 yards it's offhand, rapid fire and with a red dot pretty much any ammo will do, although I generally only shoot brass cased stuff.
 
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#40
I've had surprisingly good results from Frontier Match, I think the 55gr, but it could've been the 62 or 68 gr. It was seemingly as good as the ADI SMK 69gr I normally shoot.
 
#41
As of today, I have ordered 1000 Hornady 62gr FMJBT from RMR Reloading; so I'll be able to test my premise about the accuracy of powder charges in M-855.

On another subject;, lately, due to the component shortages, I've significantly altered my load testing/choice process. I call it the SWAG load development technique.

Over the past 20 years or so, historically, my rifle accuracy loads have tended to fall a noticeable but small amount below the powder maker's published max. My last two 6.5 Grendel loads, made to this standard, have been quite accurate. It would be unwise and misleading to recommend this approach to others; but for myself, I'm extending it to include another load or two of my own to see if any trend develops. I will try to report results, in any either case.

Please note the basic warning to all that any advice about reloading should be clearly understood to be about the loads the poster is making up and shooting in their own guns, and about no others (like yours, for instance). Duplicating such loads for your own cartridges is not recommended.

Greg
 
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